In this episode of Frogmore Stew, host Grace Cowan speaks with Jessica McIntosh, the mother of a transgender boy. Jessica shares her family's journey navigating this aspect of their son's identification. Jessica touches on the challenges that her son has faced, like understanding his feelings, peer interactions, and coping with anxiety. They also discuss transgender children and teens in society and the difficulties they often face, particularly within the context of legislation restricting access to healthcare and support. Jessica also emphasizes the importance of understanding and supporting these children by sharing their stories and challenging misconceptions.

Copyright 2024 Grace Cowan

• The Poets of Rhythm - "South Carolina
• "Born This Way" - Lady Gaga

Frogmore Stew with Grace Cowan - S1-E9 - Born this Way - Finding Thomas - A Story of Identity and Acceptance

[00:00:23] I've worked on campaigns, I follow policy both nationally and statewide like a hawk. And I'm always asked right around election time who to vote for. I believe I'm a moderate, a center left moderate, but I just don't go along with the narrative of the day. I like to understand exactly what I'm voting for.

[00:01:03] Jessica McIntosh is our guest today. She's a South Carolina mom. She's a businesswoman in the finance sector. and a brand new advocate for a movement she came into very organically. She didn't expect this, but her experience is one that I think everyone should hear. Today, we're talking about little kids that are trans. I realize many of you have made up your mind on the issue, and again, I urge you to listen to her story.

[00:01:52] And then for many, it's just a fear. I believe we all owe it to our community to understand this issue outside of the political rhetoric and to also consider that when news covers these issues, They aren't looking to help us consider the reality of the topic. They're looking for ways to extract a reaction.

[00:02:17] Jessica: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[00:02:25] Jessica: Sure. We've been in Charleston, South Carolina for just over six years, but I actually went to school here, College of Charleston, in the late 90s.

[00:02:54] Grace: That's a lot of kids, Jessica.

[00:03:14] Grace: So you as a guest today on this podcast have a really incredible story. And I met you several months ago at a dinner and you told me the story of your family. It really. affected me and also caused me to want to understand way more about your situation. So can you talk to our listeners, tell them what you told me at the dinner?

[00:04:10] And so that's why we came back. And one of the things about what we're going through right now, it wasn't something that was on our mind when we moved here because our child who is a transgender boy was only three at the time when we moved to South Carolina from New York City.

[00:04:30] Jessica: They did. We lived in a town called Bronxville, which is just north of the city, and we went to a church there, and our kids went to the nursery school at the church.

[00:04:49] Jessica: I would say two years go by from three to five. And I did notice that there was something different about one of the twins, and I didn't think anything of it at the time. They were things like, I would dress both the twins the same, maybe in different colors, but they'd be matching tutus and hair bows.

[00:05:38] They were just these, I consider it a tomboy wanting to do sports and things like that.

[00:05:53] Jessica: Then they go away every summer to my parents, we call it grandparent camp. And they went for a week and while they were there, my mother took them shopping. I'd never actually taken my children shopping for clothes. I always just bought them online, put them in their closet and say, this is what you're wearing. I obviously tried to listen to them when they didn't want to wear a dress.

[00:06:33] So my mom called and said, I just want to give you the heads up that May Thomas, which was his name at the time, is coming back with new clothes and bathing suit and pajamas that are all from the boys section. I didn't really think anything of it. I said, that's fine. And then when he got home, I noticed how happy he was in his new attire.

[00:07:18] His sister started saying, why are you wanting to look like a boy? And why do you want to dress like a boy? And they kept picking on him. They didn't think it was hurting his feelings. But then I noticed that he got really emotional about it and he was trying to fight back tears and I picked up on it and I said, let's go to my bedroom.

[00:07:56] I didn't know much about transgender individuals. It wasn't as talked about as it is today. And he had no idea that the way he was feeling was how people feel. As a matter of fact, he was afraid to tell me because he knew that it didn't match his other twin, right? And or other girls like his older sister.

[00:08:45] Grace: You grew up in Tennessee. It's strong, religious. organizations, were you ever frightened that you knew this was something you had to honor?

[00:09:07] Her best friend was a gay man, and I remember her being so open. I was a child talking about how she didn't agree with people being judged for their sexual preferences. She didn't believe that it was a choice. She thought that we're born that way. There wasn't a lot of judgment placed on people in that way.

[00:09:56] I want him to be happy and have a life that brings him joy. And this is what, as a mom, that's what pops in your mind immediately is that fear.

[00:10:15] Jessica: And the moment it was so real, there was no part of me that thought this was, Oh, I think I just want to be a boy.

[00:10:46] Afterwards, talking to my husband and thinking about how hard everything is going to be, and you go back and forth with, gosh, maybe this is a phase. You're hoping it's a phase. You're hoping that this is gonna change because you don't want their life to be hard or difficult. And so then you, okay, let's just feel them out and see if this is really how it is.

[00:11:24] Grace: Social media is a fairly good place to hear the loudest voices on this. And there were many women that I read, for example, who posted things like, when I was a kid, I was a tomboy.

[00:12:32] Jessica: I remember he pulled me aside and said, Mom, do you think that people are gonna think I'm weird? And I looked at him and I said, Yeah, people are gonna think that. They are gonna say things. And it is gonna be tough. It's gonna be really hard. But I don't think you're weird. We love you and we support you.

[00:13:12] And he lit up and was like, he saw a boy. He thinks I'm a boy. And he got so excited. And my husband and I just looked at each other this is. It's one thing after the next. One thing I will say is I felt like I was a tomboy. I wanted a boy's BMX bike. I rode a boy's BMX bike. I cut my hair off. I had a short haircut.

[00:13:52] Grace: That's the difference between the actual physical self versus a gender construct. And the definition really of gender construct are things that society has applied to each of the genders. So no matter what gender you're born, you can choose either of those things. That doesn't make you trans. What makes you transgender is someone that innately in their body feels like they are not the gender that they were born.

[00:14:47] Grace: So one of the things I came across is that in parenting transgender children is there are three words. That's come up often of what differentiates a tomboy versus your child being transgender. And they are consistence, persistence, and insistence.

[00:15:18] Jessica: Spot on! Because I would go back and ask, what about the time that you and Millie, his sister, dressed for your birthdays? You were both Wonder Woman. How did you feel? And he said, I didn't like it. And it's funny, it's his personality. He was always my quiet child. And he wouldn't speak up and say anything. And then when this happened and we were transitioning and letting him wear boy clothes and all that stuff, his old babysitter got them matching bathing suits that summer, and I said, we have to put these bathing suits on and take a picture and send it to her and say, thank you.

[00:16:16] Grace: To your point, it's any parent of a boy. If you said to your son, who was in the first or second grade, hey, you need to put this girl's bathing suit on and take a picture so that we can send it to someone. They would be devastated.

[00:16:43] Grace: So jessica, one of the things that I think is impactful and important about your voice and particularly why I wanted to start this conversation with you. is because you are not someone who knows all the lingo, you are not someone that has been an advocate for this for a very long time, you are not someone that had this growing up, or you've never been involved in an advocacy group that And one of the things that I think has made this so difficult to have a conversation about is that for myself, even, I don't know the language.

[00:17:46] And I was like, Okay, Boomer. Even though I'm a Gen X er, I just, I feel like it's so important for people like you to talk to people like me so that we can better ourselves in feeling comfortable to, to use the language that we know, have someone say, don't use that word, but understand why.

[00:18:34] He was okay with that. So he started to go by MT, first grade. And within a year, he quickly dropped the M because people asked him, what does MT stand for? He wanted it to be a boy's name. So we dropped the letter M and he goes by Thomas now.

[00:18:52] Jessica: So getting used to the pronouns and all that took us a little while. I can't even imagine. Calling him a her, or she her, or Mae Thomas. It's just completely Thomas. It rolls off the tongue naturally. Same with his pronouns. I never, ever referred to him as a girl, ever.

[00:19:36] Jessica: Yeah. So when he first started school as a boy, I gave the teacher the heads up because they had known him the previous year as Mae Thomas and a girl. And I needed to also say that he may want you to call him he him.

[00:20:24] And he would freeze up and the teacher would interrupt and ask him, M. T. Do you prefer to be called a boy? And he said, yes. And so the teacher turned to the other students and said, then that's what we're going to call him and we're going to respect M. T. 's wishes. And so that's how it went.

[00:21:10] And I said, why aren't you going to the bathroom when you're at school? And he said, I was going to the girl's bathroom, but they all looked at me like I was weird. And said, why are you in here? You're a boy. You go to the boys bathroom. And I even remember the face he made imitating them doing it, just as a look of disgust, and so he nervously went to the boys bathroom.

[00:21:49] So I immediately, it was a Sunday night, I wrote an email to the principal and the teacher and said, Can we speak tomorrow morning? first thing. And they were wonderful. They were great. They said, let's meet in person and we're going to figure this out. And so I will say right away, they didn't really know what to do because they hadn't had this experience right at that school before.

[00:22:29] And so it was like, all eyes on him. Which one are you gonna give him? So she said, she just would tap him on the shoulder and say, Hey, do you need to go to the restroom? As in, coast is clear. And so he got it. He was like, I know she's helping me. And so he would run out there and go to the bathroom. And he preferred to go to the boys bathroom.

[00:23:07] Grace: This obviously was the first child who was recognized as transgender at that school. Because certainly, transgender is not a new thing. This has been around since the beginning of time. It's just. Yeah. That we now are recognizing it as a society and that is change. And so some people have a tougher time than others with change and it really often takes being closely exposed to something or witnessing what you have witnessed in order to fully grasp why this isn't a choice, right?

[00:24:04] And so there are a lot of bills right now in the state that most likely aren't bills that our politicians have written, but bills that they've received from national organizations. that are making their way through conservative legislatures throughout the country. And one in particular is 4624. It's in the House. And it restricts parents being able to make medical decisions. When it comes to transgender health care, and I'm wondering, obviously, as a parent, no parent wants any decision about their child taken away from them, I would imagine is how you feel. But I'm curious how this directly affects your son's ability to continue living his authentic self.

[00:25:04] Grace: And can you tell us what that looks like for a child who's six, seven, eight?

[00:25:24] For us, it was helpful to ask questions and learn more by having those appointments and asking a medical professional what they think. That is all that we have done up until this point, which has been extremely helpful, but that treatment stopped. About a year ago, it hurt us because we couldn't continue to do our research and ask the questions that we wanted to ask, to learn about all the options out there.

[00:26:18] Grace: Do you have a local pediatrician that understands?

[00:27:03] I'm not sure about the details of that, but that's really important for us to be able to at least have someone to talk to about this. And I'm hoping that the bill does not take that away from us because we need to do our homework. We need to do our research, but he also needs somebody to talk to because it's going to get increasingly very difficult to process and go through.

[00:27:43] Grace: As a parent, puberty isn't like an everyday conversation that you're having all the time with your children when they're not going through this. And adding on this whole level of intensity, that our legislators are actually putting on kids seems to be cruel and unusual punishment, right? Like it's making a hard time of a child's life way more difficult for something that they didn't choose, for something that they're living the person that they are supposed to be. And I just don't understand. How they can justify that.

[00:28:42] He doesn't understand why there's so much conversation about it. And he just wants to be left alone, wants to be a kid. He wants to enjoy his life, wake up and not have to talk about it's in his face. And that's really hard for kids with everything going on out there. It makes it a bigger deal, but there is still a population of people out there that don't really understand.

[00:29:27] Grace: One thing I did want to note is that South Carolina has an estimated, and this is estimated because the census doesn't capture information on transgender individuals. But we're estimated to have about 3, 700 transgender individuals, age 13 to 17, and then 19, 000 trans adults. We have a significant portion of our state who are transgender individuals.

[00:30:13] Jessica: it goes like bully. That's the part that's really upsetting because it, in my opinion, feels like a political move. There are easy wins because there's a small percentage of people that are going to be able to fight for themselves. And so it's really unfair. And what they don't realize they're doing right now, it's a small population, but these are their lives and it's going to be very bad, what we're going to see if all of these bills get passed and these kids are going to have a really hard time. Just leave them alone.

[00:31:19] Jessica: I wouldn't agree more. I do hope that is the way it's going to go. But we do have to, and I say unfortunately, speak up. And why I say it's unfortunate is because, again, my child just wants to be a kid. He doesn't want to, Be different and he walks out the door and it's always on his mind, but I have to say something so that the people that are out there saying the opposite aren't the louder voice because everything, as we all know, is all over social media, but at the same time, there's a lot of quiet voices right now.

[00:32:14] Grace: Jessica I'm so thankful. For your honesty, so thankful for your bravery. I'm so just thankful that you would sit down with us today and have this conversation. And I'm so proud to call you my friend. I feel like taking an advocacy role for something that you were surprised by in the first place is I think the definition of being a really phenomenal parent. So I, I hope you'll come back as we watch what happens in our legislature. And I commend you and I'm so happy that your voice is in this state.

[00:33:07] Why can't we all just love each other? It's all about love. I hope that people will lead with that when they consider the different bans that are going on in the legislation out there.

[00:33:21] Jessica: I know. That's the problem.

[00:33:40] Grace: That's all the stew for today. Talk to you next week.

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