What woman hasn’t disliked part of her face at some point?  My nose is too big. I don’t like my profile. My forehead is too big. I wish my lips were fuller. 

Val Monroe, former beauty editor for O, The Oprah Magazine and writer of the popular Substack newsletter How Not to F*ck Up Your Face, and Body Relationship Coach Debbie Saroufim, chat with host Carmelita Tiu about grappling with beauty standards, objectification, and how we can shift our perspectives as our bodies and faces change through our lives.

We cover:

• What objectification means
• Mirror meditation - what it is, why it works
• The roots of beauty standards and our dissatisfaction
• Sitting with discomfort
• Feeling beautiful vs. being beautiful

Today's Guests

To learn more about Debbie Saroufim, visit www.bodyrelationship.com and follow her on Instagram @bodyrelationship_coach.  And check out her Parents Guide, for what NOT to say to your kids if you want them to have a health relationship with their bodies.

Want to feel happier about your appearance—especially as you age—you might like reading more about what Val has to say about it. Subscribe for free to How Not to F*ck Up Your Face at valeriemonroe.substack.com. You can find her on Instagram at @thisisvalmonroe.

About Your Host, Carmelita / Cat / Millie Tiu

Mom, spouse, coach, podcaster, wordsmith, legal eagle.  Endlessly curious about how we can show up better for ourselves – because when we do that, we also show up better for our kids and those around us.  Visit carmelitatiu.com to learn more about Cat, and for info on 1:1 coaching, the mom collective, and her monthly newsletter.

Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them

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Hello, I'm Carmelita too.

And welcome to know them.

Be them.

Raise them.

Uh, show to help busy, mindful growth oriented moms stay informed

and inspired as they navigate their daughter's tween and teen years.

If you like what you hear or you find something helpful in

the podcast, please follow.

Follow at Noby raised them on Instagram.

Tell a friend and leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify.

So I've interviewed dozens of women for this podcast.

And something I've noticed is how our personal growth and wellbeing

are tied to becoming informed about a problem or issue, and then learning

about solutions and alternatives.

And for most topics, it's not a one and done kind of thing.

You might have a lot of info, but it still takes practice effort and

reminders to remember your options and alternatives and keep your

brain in a more empowered Headspace.

Body image and beauty and diet culture.

Those are topics that fall squarely into this category.

You may already know I've done previous episodes and today's takes a different

little bit different of an angle.

Um, we definitely touch on beauty and part of me knows that certain things are true.

Like beauty's on the inside, et cetera, et cetera.

But my guests today really dive deeper into why beauty culture impacts us so much

and what we can do to help navigate that.

Debbie Saroufim is one guest.

She's a body relationship coach that's been on the podcast before

based in Southern California with a background in personal training.

She helps women learn to love their bodies, even while they're working

on them and build an immunity to diet culture's negative messages.

And establish a healthy relationship with food.

Through coaching virtual workouts and community.

She aims to be a support system for her clients.

Because when women are living a truth that doesn't involve good and bad bodies, they

can be the best version of themselves.

And my other guest is Val Monroe.

For nearly 16 years, val was beauty director at O the Oprah magazine.

She's been an editor at Ms.

Red book, self and parenting magazines among others, a contributing

writer at parents and entertainment weekly, and has written hundreds of

articles on a wide range of topics for many national publications.

She's considered an expert in the field because of her intimate

connection with magazine readers.

Through her monthly column at oh, her extensive experience

interviewing beauty experts.

And through her writing on the many aspects of beauty culture.

She also publishes a popular sub stack newsletter.

How not to F up your face.

Philosophical and practical advice for anyone who's ever looked into a mirror.

Here's our conversation.

Debbie and Val, welcome and thank you so much for sharing

your time and energy with me today.

I'm honored to have you both here, so yes, first of all, welcome,

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

I'm so excited to be talking to both of you at the same time.

I'm like it nerdy child.

So thank you.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: So let's jump right in.

I know Val, especially, you have touched on this concept of OB

objectification and I would love to hear you share more about what it

is and tell us what we need to know.

So yes, thanks.

It's a huge part of my platform at, uh, you know, how not to fuck up your

face because it's one of the, one of the main things that we learn as.

Women or as girls.

From the moment that we start looking into a mirror, we are kind of taught to

objectify what we see, unlike the way um, you know, we look at other people's

faces, we look at our own faces as an object to be adorned or manipulated

or or used in some way to attract a third party, an imaginary third party.

But it's basically you know, whatever, uh, Western Eurocentric

beauty culture has taught us to believe we're supposed to look like.

And because it happened so young with.

With, uh, girls, it's something that becomes completely ingrained, uh,

becomes an inherent part of who we are when we think about how we look.

And so it means that whenever we look in the mirror, we're constantly scanning for

flaws, for for mistakes, for problems, for ways that we can make ourselves look more

attractive to uh, to the world basically.

I suggest that if we can learn how to undo that, if we can learn how to de

objectify what we see in the mirror everything following in terms of how we

feel about the way we look will be an improvement will make us feel better.

And I tell a story in one of my posts about how I actually started to.

, uh, de objectify on my own without really understanding what it was when

I received a photo from a reader, uh, actually it couldn't have been

because it was at a private party.

It was from, uh, someone on, I think on, on the staff who I don't remember

it at the magazine who sent me a photo of me talking face to face.

the gorgeous model.

Iman, you know who she is, right?

David Bowie's wife and I looked at this photo and I looked at Iman's face and

I looked at my own, and as I describe it, she looked like this magnificent.

Uh, outrageous hot house orchid in full bloom, and I looked like a

little parking lot daisy, you know, at the end of a hot summer day.

And I felt such disappointment because I hadn't really been thinking about how

I looked in relation to other people.

I just hadn't, it wasn't something that I had given a lot of thought to anyway.

I had this feeling and I went over to the mirror in my office and I looked at

myself, and I looked into my own eyes.

Until I recognized myself, basically.

I think the way I put it was I, I looked into my own eyes until I

actually saw the person who lived there, and I felt this enormous

relief because I recognized myself.

I had been doing a lot of therapy at the time and I had learned how to.

Feel compassionate for the person who I had grown to be, you know, from the time

I was a ba a child until my adulthood.

And it was enormously helpful.

And so it became something that I would do when I felt overwhelmed by

basically, you know, beauty cultures insistence that I try to Adhere to

their, to their what beauty standard.

And then I discovered that there's actually science behind that.

, there's , a, uh, teacher at Barnard College in New York, uh,

who's been studying this, and it's called mirror meditation.

I mean, there are other people who study it too, but I.

Tara well, first, uh, she's got a new book out and it's called Mirror Meditation.

And I encourage readers at all times to try to go back to do these exercises

that she has actually shown through studies can help improve self-esteem.

Basically what you're doing is deep listening to yourself.

I say typically, you know, if you're a really good friend, , it's the kind of

listening you do when you're, when you're listening to a friend who's downloading,

or you're being intimate with her.

You're doing it with yourself.

And she talks about the ways that mirror meditation can help you, uh, maintain

better self-esteem and can make you feel better about the way you look.

In other words, learn to love your face in the way that I eventually did

Wow.

but that's the.

something that came up as you were talking about,

establishing the sense of compassion for yourself and kind of paralleling

how we treat friends differently than we would treat ourselves.

And by seeing yourself in a.

That's a visual aid in a sense, in helping you see yourself

almost like a third person.

I, I don't know if that's part of the psychology, but objectively, thank you.

, Val Monroe: Yeah.

, not objectifying, but objectively the way a, a friend was here.

I think that's really important.

And it's a way of looking in a mirror that most women aren't familiar with.

Hmm.

basically what I like to encourage a woman to do, a reader

to do is to look into the mirror until she can see her own eyes.

It's very uncomfortable.

It feels like when I first did it, I.

felt like I was putting the make on myself, which was just

like ridiculous, you know?

And then I was thinking, you're an idiot.

Where's it going?

This is going nowhere.

But if you can do it to the point where you're allowing feelings to come

up, and you can continue to look at yourself, you begin to see your face

as just a face with, you know, brown eyes or blue eyes, you know, a, a long

narrow nose or a broad one, you know?

And you.

You eventually, if you're disappointed about doing the exercise, you'll

be able to see yourself with the same kind of compassion you see.

Your best friend or your daughter, or your mother someone who you, who you love.

And then I, and then I.

interesting.

Oh, go ahead.

Sorry.

Go, go.

I just wanna say then I insist that, you know, after that,

if you can do that, anything else you decide to do to your face, and I'm not

judgmental about, whatever treatments you want, whether they're, invasive.

I mean, if it's a facelift you want, it'll make you feel better.

And you know why I say go for it.

But anything you choose to do to your face after you've been able to

see your face without objectifying it, you'll be happier with

Mm mm

It's interesting because I had Thanks.

I I got this one.

Here we go.

Um, no, it's interesting because, so before you ever, because I've

heard you talk about this looking at yourself, um, in the mirror before and

before I ever did that, I actually did this exercise with my husband when I

felt like we, um, there was a time shortly after having two kids and I

think I had sort of struggled with some postpartum depression and I

just felt a little disconnected and, um, I'd been doing a lot of work on

myself and all sorts of stuff, but he.

For a present, we had the, uh, brother-in-law watch the kids, and we

went to a hotel and I just reveled in it.

And I was like, here's what I wanna do.

And this was one of the exercises and.

what I like to remind people and to parallel is that a

relationship with yourself is like a relationship with a partner.

So my husband was a great sport because I had tons of like, let's

get emotionally closer exercises planned for us for the weekend.

And he just kind of went along with all of it.

But we started, it's called soul gazing.

Um, and you do, you do with your partner what you're talking about, which is.

You sit in the discomfort of looking into their eyes and really seeing them.

And I had, I just sort of wanna say my experience was very similar.

I had those first few minutes, I was surprised.

I started laughing.

He kept it really cool and I was the one who had wanted it, but I started

laughing and then when I sort of moved through that, cause I always

like to remind people that if you sit in a feeling long enough, it passes.

So I moved through the uncomfortable, I feel sort of stupid phase and

then, um, I had a really profound experience with my husband.

And, you know, he always tells me that he feels sort of like he, he

worries a lot about death and aging.

And I had this moment where I was looking at him and I saw, like I saw his face

sort of morph into an old man and, um, And I just got teary-eyed and I felt,

and I told him about it afterwards and I felt that I saw a part of him, right?

Like I think I saw his fear.

And I loved him for it.

it was something that had always sort of been.

The difference between me and my husband because I, he, he's sort

of perpetually focused on death and I'm perpetually focused on life.

And so it's always sort of been this divide.

And I had this moment where I was able to see him and I was able to love him for it.

And I kind of just sort of want to mirror that.

Right?

Because a relationship with.

With yourself, be it with your face, with your body, with anything.

A relationship is allowed to have those complex feelings.

You're allowed to feel like it's stupid and fabulous all at the same time.

And so I just kinda wanna point out the similarities cuz I did

the same thing with someone else and had a very similar experience.

And I think it actually, you know, he still refers to that as sort of

like the time I understood and saw.

Some of his concern and it was more than a person.

Right.

And that's what you're talking about is I'm more than, I'm more

than a series of like, you know, perfectly aligned symmetrical figures.

I am a whole being.

Of the things that you're bringing up, I think, which is really,

really important is vulnerability and the power of vulnerability, because

what you're doing, what you were doing with him, and what I encourage

women to do with for themselves is to allow the vulnerabilities to arise,

to see them, to be able to feel them, and then to understand the power.

Vulnerability when you've experienced it.

You know, one of the things that we do, I think as women, when we objectify our

faces and try to manipulate it or, , fix it in some way or scan it for flaws

and then, you know try to hide the flaws is that we're putting on a mask.

And I think, you know, that's one of the things that makes.

Feel you know, insecure, unhappy, you know, gives us a feeling of lower

self-esteem because the mask is never enough and the feelings are always there.

And if we don't confront them, uh, we're always stru, we're always

gonna be struggling with these, you know, something that's driving us

that we, we don't really understand.

If we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with our feelings it gives us the power.

being able to use them in a way that might be more productive.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I always say there's a power.

I always tell my mo, there's a power in sitting in your discomfort, right?

Like knowing that your discomfort is just yours.

And I think, you know, to your point when you say treat yourself like you

would a friend, like we're, it's so easy to look at a friend and say,

oh, she's lovely, and also know that.

That we can beat ourselves up.

It's been interesting.

I heard someone say this and I thought this was incredibly profound,

so I'm going to say it, and if you like it, I'll claim it as my own

and you can edit out the part that

Unless it was, unless it was me,

it was you, no, it, it wasn't you.

But someone said that, I am beautiful and if someone can't see my beauty, that's

their limitation because my beauty exists.

And I think that culturally we've been fed this idea of what beauty is, and the

implication is always so if you don't meet this criteria, you are not beautiful.

But that is beautiful.

But beauty is so much more than that and, and.

And since I've opened my my mind and expanded my definition of

beauty, I think I'm able to see the beauty in myself even on days

when I don't feel beautiful because like, beauty isn't really a feeling.

But, you know, I, I talked about this in our last conversation, Kat, where

I always said, you know, feeling when, when we say something like, I feel fat,

or I feel gross, or I feel, it feels like we're disconnected from the power

that we have as humans and so know.

Feeling beautiful.

You don't actually get to feel beautiful.

You are beautiful.

But feeling beautiful I think is when you're tapped into sort of the power

you have that that is your value, that's beyond this shell that you carry.

And so.

There's something really nice about knowing you are beautiful.

Even on the days you don't feel it, cuz you don't always have to feel it.

Right.

And and so I think, yeah, I liked that perspective of, oh wow.

If they can't see my beauty, it's not even a blame thing.

It's not like they're bad.

It's just their, like, that's, that's their limitation, their

limitation of where beauty goes ends.

It doesn't mean I'm not beautiful.

It gives a lot more space to sort of be nice to yourself.

You know, so I thought that

Yeah.

And a little forgiving towards others too, right?

Like as you were saying, just you can still be beautiful even if they don't see

mm-hmm.

And you can feel comfort in knowing that

you are beautiful and, and not carry that grudge or that sense

of resentment towards this other.

necessarily, you know, because if you, if you let that affect you, then you're, in

a sense, I, I feel like , you're sort of staying in that, realm of acknowledging

that they may have a power over you.

Um, I.

Well, and I think if we talk about the objectification

of women, so much of it is tied into how much beauty do they have?

And it's like it's currency and it's almost like women

owe the world this currency.

And then it's their responsibility to show up a certain way.

And if you respect yourself, you take care of yourself like this.

And I mean, this subjectification of beauty and women spills into

so many aspects of our life.

And the truth is, is that, if you recognize, oh wow, beauty exists,

even where I don't see it, then.

. I feel like that hold that the culture gets to Hold on you as to you owe me this.

It just, the grip loosens a little, right?

Because I'm still, I'm still, you know, I'm a 42 year old woman in America, so

there's still definitely like certain um, things I'm supposed to fulfill.

Um, and now.

on the days that I don't feel I fulfill them, because I don't always

get to feel like I fulfill them.

It doesn't feel like I'm letting anyone down because I recognize, again, that

if they can't see what I'm providing, that that's their, their limitation.

And it just sort of gives me a little bit of power to feel my power,

even if the world doesn't have, you know, Does your power exist?

It's like if, , if a tree falls in a forest and no one's there to make a

sound, does it actually make a sound?

And it's like, does your power exist If the world doesn't

see it and it, it does it.

And so that's where we get to sort of take some of the power back.

I

Yeah.

Yeah.

So one, one thing about this power issue you're talking about

I think is really important is that capitalism is the engine.

Hmm.

it's not as if you know you're You're encouraged to improve

your looks or to look a certain way just because, just for the fact of it, you

know, just because someone wants you to, but you're encouraged to do that because

you're supporting an enormous capitalist.

Entity that relies on all of those feelings of, imperfection and yearning

to keep it going inadequately.

Exactly.

And it relies on all of those feelings that, make you

feel lousy as a human being.

to support it.

And that's why it's very, I, I believe especially in the beauty arena, why it's

so very difficult to make a, an enormous or an impressive, an important change

because the power of the capitalist engine is so strong and so pervasive

that it's very hard to work against it.

Mm mm That is such an important point that I think

sometimes many people either gloss over or , they don't actively acknowledge.

And, and I think, Debbie, you may have touched on this, but the, the

fact that there are entire industries that rely on our sense of insec.

And, and our desire to change how we look to conform to something

else that is a huge hurdle and we need to inform ourselves so that.

when we see ads that don't look like us when we're told we need

products that we don't have yet, that we can filter it and kind of look

at it with a sense of skepticism.

Um, it's, yeah.

I don't know if that's pointed out as much as it should be

Well, I mean, I think it goes so far back that it's

almost like some of the people, because I, because I know progressive

thinkers who, , who subscribe to some of the beauty mythology, right?

Like it goes so far back.

We don't really, it's, it, it gets to a point where you

don't know how to separate.

Those cultural capitalistic beliefs from your own, like where does one end,

they're all, they're all twisted together.

Um, and then, and then you get the flip side where people are like, no, I'm

doing this because it makes me feel good.

Like I wanna do this cuz it feels I, I feel good when I feel beautiful.

And that's not wrong, but that's.

that's manmade at this point, right?

Like that is something that if this industry didn't exist.

You wouldn't have to feel beautiful to be beautiful.

You just, you just know.

But it goes so far back that it's like you don't even realize a thing.

It's just sort of reality.

Deb, I wanna challenge you, I wanna challenge you on something

because you, keep saying you know, you could feel beautiful, even when other

people aren't recognizing your beauty.

And I'm wondering when you say that about the issue of needing

to feel beautiful , at its source.

So as we age, it gets much, much harder to look in the mirror , and

assert your beauty in the way that we're raised to think that we are beautiful.

So, in my experience, I'm learning to look at myself and on the days when

I don't feel like I'm good looking, you know, by Eurocentric standard

to look at myself and think I'm not beautiful, but I'm still valuable.

In other words, my face no longer is in line with what I've been

brought up to believe is beautiful.

It just isn't.

Um, so I don't feel beautiful, but I'm thinking about like, if I were a man

who was 71, would I look in the mirror and go, oh my God, look at my face.

Yuck.

You know, I'm, I'm so old.

No.

And that's where I'm moving towards.

So just quickly, you know, and I, I mentioned this in one of my, posts when

I, I saw the lost daughter and I looked at Ed Harris's face and he and I are

the same age and he looks like an older man, his face shows a lot of, of aging.

And I looked at him and I thought, God, he looks great and you, by no

means would you consider him beautiful on, by our typical standards.

But I was thinking if I could get to the point where, if I looked like that

and, and I'm, at this point, I'm glad I don't because I've, you know, done

more to my face , to prevent that and avoided the sun as much as possible.

Um, but I, that's where I would like to get.

And so the idea of needing to feel like you must feel like

you're beautiful no matter what.

I think it's a bit of a challenge.

I appreciate the, I appreciate the challenge.

I'm with you on that.

I guess just, just to clarify, um, I don't always feel beautiful,

but I think culturally we have.

Um, culturally we have tied beauty and power together, so I don't always

feel beautiful, but again, that's when you say, when you say you look

at yourself and you're like, well, I don't, I don't feel beautiful.

At least not according to these Eurocentric standards.

It's the asterisk, right, that you're talking about, it's according to these

Eurocentric standards, which means that you're sort of in that moment

buying into the Eurocentric standards.

And there are plenty of times when I do two and plenty of times when I look

at my face and I'm like, oh gosh, I just remember when this used to be like

higher on its own and all sorts of stuff.

And sometimes it really bothers me.

And then sometimes I can look at it and I can say, you know, the only

reason this bothers me, is because I was told it should bother me.

I actually don't mind this like, curve to my face.

I guess where, where I'm gonna push back on it is just saying that you

don't have to feel beautiful, right?

You don't have to feel beautiful.

Feeling beautiful isn't the key feeling.

Recognizing your power and your value is the key.

So many of us associate that with beauty, which is why I say you don't

have to feel beautiful to be beautiful.

Right?

We.

All God's creatures.

We are all beautiful.

That is not up to a certain size or up to a certain weight

or up to a certain age, right?

I also don't think beauty is what matters.

But I do think that if we recognize the reason it doesn't matter is because we

are all actually on the same level, right?

Not one better than the other, than we're able to sort of tap into the value

that you are feeling and talking about.

Um, so.

. I appreciate the challenge.

I hope that clarified some of it.

Um, but I, I think it's a real que I think it's an important question, right?

Like what does beauty matter?

We have been taught day in and day out since the day we were born.

The beauty is one of the most important things in the entire world, and it is a

reflection of what kind of person you are.

Um, and that's like when you say it out loud, damn, that.

Bleak.

Um, and so many people then aren't allowed to reach their full potential

or feel their full potential because they don't meet certain criteria.

Again, that's a limited viewpoint, right?

So what happens if we know that, When we say beauty is in the eye of the

beholder, that's not really true.

That gives the power to the person who's seeing you.

What if beauty just exists?

And if the beholder is lucky, they get to recognize it.

Right?

And then that's like a whole different power game.

This conversation was so compelling that we actually went long.

And our next episode we'll be featuring the second half of this conversation.

So a few things that really stuck with me were.

Mirror meditation and this idea of looking at your face.

Sitting with that discomfort.

reaching a point of.

Seeing it not with any judgment, but just for what it is.

And the second takeaway that really resonated was Debbie's repeated

insistence, how you don't have to feel beautiful to be beautiful.

And I think that distinction is so important.

Oh, and I guess I have a third one, which is.

It's important for us to inform ourselves and our daughters about

why beauty culture exists and why it has such a strong hold over us.

Why we think certain things are pretty versus not pretty, why we think beauty

should look one way versus another.

And really try to get media literate, dig deep, and think about how

we exist within this environment of these messages that are.

, Influencing our thoughts.

To learn more about Debbie Saroufim visit www.bodyrelationship.com and follow her

on Instagram @bodyrelationship_coach.

You can also check out her parents guide for what not to say to

your kids in the show notes.

If you want to feel happier about your appearance, especially as you

age, you might like reading more about what Val has to say about it.

You can subscribe for free to how not to F up your face at

valeriemonroedotsubstack.com.

Thanks so much for listening.

Again the second half of this interview will be featured in the next episode.

And until then, if you're interested in more From the podcast around beauty.

Diet culture, body positivity, and other topics.

Visit knowberaisethem.com or follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram.

And here's to strong women.

May we know them?

May we be them?