Are you feeling trapped in feelings of loneliness or disappointment with God? 

In this episode of What's The Story, Ruth Hettler shares her journey of running into loneliness and pain and finding a deeper connection with God. Discover how the power of authentic relationships and community can help you process grief and find your own miracle. Tune in now to experience this inspiring story of faith and hope.

Here’s a summary of this week’s story:

• Ruth discusses her upbringing in a Christian home and shares a defining moment during her university years when she experienced loneliness and learned to embrace it, ultimately leading to a deeper relationship with God.
• She had a clear sense of calling to be a nurse in East Africa from a young age. Despite a winding journey with several challenges, she believes that God used that time to do much work in her and her husband, and helped them become the people they are today.
• Ruth shares about her mother's journey with breast cancer and how it impacted her faith, especially after her mother passed away before Ruth could be with her. She had not prayed for her mother's healing, but had asked for time with her before she passed away. When that plan didn't work out, she felt disappointed and let down by God, leading to a crack in her relationship with Him.
• Ruth talks about the difficult decision her family had to make when her mother's condition worsened rapidly and they couldn't make it back in time to see her before she passed away, and how the disappointment and grief led to a crisis of faith, but ultimately, the support and hope from her community helped her hold onto her relationship with God.
• She highlights the importance of community and vulnerability in the grieving process and how it has profoundly changed her, leading to a stronger sense of self and relationship with God. Though grieving is difficult, leaning into God and community can lead to a beautiful transformation.
• Ruth's one message from her journey so far is that knowing God leads to knowing yourself, and vice versa, and that the two are connected. She believes that in order to know God more, we needs to know ourselves more, and that there is freedom in that understanding.

ABOUT RUTH:

Ruth is a wife, a mum, a nurse, and currently also a student finishing her MSc in Leadership in Healthcare. She works for a small inter-cultural faith-based organisation, and has been living in Rwanda for the past 5 years with her family. Ruth loves coffee, good books, the ocean & the mountains, building authentic friendships and is also passionate about the importance of supporting people’s emotional health.

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And now without further ado, let's meet your host and our

very special guest for today.

Hello there and welcome to What's the Story Podcast.

I'm Anna Kettle, one of the team behind Crowd Church.

Today I'm actually joined by one of my oldest childhood friends, Ruth

Hettler, who I think I met at age 10 or 11, and we did all of our

secondary school years together.

Um, before our lives took slightly different turns, I went northwards

towards Liverpool and she went further south to, uh, the big smoke in London.

Um, but Ruth is a wife, a mom, a friend, um, a nurse.

She's also currently studying, finishing studying for her MSC

and leadership in healthcare.

She works for a small intercultural faith-based organization and has

been living in Rwanda for the past five years with her family.

Ruth loves coffee as I do and good books, as I do, um, the ocean and mountains.

And she is also really passionate about building authentic friendships

and also about the importance of supporting people's emotional health too.

So Ruth, thank you for joining us today on What's the Story.

Really pleased to have you here and you're joining us all

the way from Rwanda as well.

I am.

Yeah.

I'm here in Kigali

So we're kind of fingers crossed that the text stays with us today and they're

like, yeah, we don't lose each other.

But so far so good.

So yes.

Um, we're excited to have you on the show today.

Uh, there's like a ton of things I wanna ask you about, um, cuz I know

you've got a really interesting life.

Um, but yeah, I suppose we should start at the beginning really shouldn't we

of your faith journey because unlike, unlike me, most of the listeners

won't know you quite as well as I do.

So should we go back to sort of the beginning of your story

and kind of how you grew up and sort of your faith journey?

Um.

I know, like me, you grew up as in a Christian family.

Um, in fact, our families lived around the corner from each other,

didn't they, for like a number of years when we were teenagers.

Um, but um, yeah, I suppose what I'm interested in is, uh, what, what,

if any, what sort of key or really defining times that stand out in your

faith journey, sort of growing up in a Christian family, and then obviously

that faith becoming real to you as well.

Like when did that happen and kind of were there any key times for you?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Thanks Anna.

Yeah, it's great.

It's great to be talking with you tonight.

So many things we could chat about together, but, um, yes, I

mean, like, like you, you know, I grew up in a Christian home.

My parents were both Christians and actually my, my grandparents as well.

Were Christians, so was raised as, you know, with that and church very much

being, being part of, of my weekly life.

But I think I, there's a couple of defining moments for me, and

definitely one key season in my life was when I was a student.

So, um, I went from being in Oxford where, uh, you know, grew up in

the same church, um, went to the same school, which actually was a

Christian school, and then I went from.

That quite close-knit environment to then London for four years, um, to university.

And I remember so acutely actually still now, even though it was

like more than 20 years ago.

Don't want to admit that, but, um, I remember, oh dear.

Um, I remember that first year just feeling so incredibly lonely and lost

in, in, you know, in, in a big city.

Um, realizing I could go anywhere, do anything, and.

And nobody would really know what I was up to in a lot of ways.

And that, that loneliness hit me really quite hard and quite acutely.

And I remember I would just fill my time.

I just would cram my week and my diary and my life full of, of people really.

And um,

Mm.

So that I didn't have to be alone.

So I, so I never had to spend time on my own.

And I remember a, a couple at the time who were kind of good friends and

mentors in my life and talking about this, this feeling of acute loneliness.

Um, and they actually really encouraged me.

The phrase they used was, you know, you actually need to, you need to run

into, The loneliness, Ruth, you need to run into the pain and you need

to sit with the loneliness and sit with yourself and see what happens.

So I intentionally started to try and empty my diary a bit more, try to not

cram it full of people and activity and leave space and that space, it was scary.

It was.

It.

I felt like, I don't know what this is gonna look like.

But anyway, that's what I did.

Kind of ran into the loneliness, embraced that space, and really God.

Really did meet me in that space and in that loneliness.

And I started to see things about myself and about him.

And you know, the more I got to know him, the more I learned about myself.

Um, and really that was such a formative time of my life.

And those whole four years really at uni in London was so

incredibly formative, um, for me.

And I think that's definitely without a doubt where my faith became my own

story and my own journey, and I learned, I think maybe for the first time, I'm

not sure that, you know, in pain, uh, actually God really can meet us in,

in that space and in that place, and that good things can come from that.

So, yeah.

And it's, it's interesting that you say that.

I mean, a lot of people say that uni is quite a formative time in their lives.

You know, it's kind of stepping into the adult space and independence

for the first time, isn't it?

I know.

I know that was true for me as well.

But it's interesting that you sort of talk about kind of.

Yeah, that kind of natural instinct that I think a lot of us have, which is to

like fill every minute of every day and to fill our lives with noise and stuff and

people and things going on all the time.

And maybe even more of an issue now than it was 20 years ago.

Like we have such a, you know, this was pre-social media

it was pre-Instagram people.

yeah, but pre-Facebook, but like, But like anything, life has only

sped up even more since then.

So I think that so many people would probably identify with that

sense of like wanting to kind of fill the time and run away from.

Kind of some of those more difficult things like loneliness or feeling

a bit lost in a big new place.

And yeah, it's, it's interesting, isn't it, because you sort of say that's

actually where you really encountered God.

And it's, it's interesting, cause it, it, it just made me think of

like that Bible verse that says, be still and know that I am God.

It's like, it's not like, be as busy as you can be and then find me.

Is it, it's like you're more likely to find God and the

silence and the, the stillness.

Um.

You know, according to, to a lot of the Bible.

So yeah, I find that, I find that really interesting.

It probably really resonates with a lot of people.

mm.

So you obviously that was your, um, kind of.

Yeah, that was your journey into kind of going deeper in your faith, and

so you did, you did uni in London and then, and then what happened next?

So you, you, you trained to be a nurse and, and you always had this plan,

didn't you, from like a young age to kind of go and work somewhere like Africa.

And like I remember you talking about that in your early teens and

me thinking, I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do with my life.

And you were just so, you know, had such a clear sense of cool, I

guess for want of a better word.

Um, yeah.

Tell us a little bit more about that and like how did that sort of pan out?

Yeah.

Yes, that's exactly the word.

Or so that's the word I would use at that time in my life that, you know,

as a teenager around the age of 15, 16, I, I just, I mean, that's a story

in itself, but, but in short, I, I just, I, I sensed, um, that word call,

I would use a different word now, but we'll get, we'll get onto that.

But, um, I, that sense of call, that sense of the, i, I wanna live in Africa.

It was especially the East, east Africa region, which obviously is where I am now.

And, um, I knew I wanted to be a nurse and I knew I wanted to live in Africa.

And, um, it felt very clear at that time.

It felt very simple.

Um, it felt, it felt.

Like, okay, you know, I, I know kind of what I want to do.

So I went to London, graduated um, as a nurse and um, had a,

was planning on staying in London actually to work, uh, was part of

a great church that I loved a lot.

That was, we met in Soho in the comedy, I dunno if anyone's ever been, we met

in the comedy club in, um, in Soho.

And, um, just a really vibrant church and loved it.

And it was real, it was community.

For me, and like I said before, a lot of growth anyway, was wanting to stay

in London, but um, had a dream where I was living back at home with my parents

in Oxford, working as a nurse and I was saving to go to a bible college.

And I kind of processed this dream for a while, reflected on it with good

people, with good friends because you know, I think whenever we have that

sense of like wanting to hear from God, uh, we need wisdom and, you know,

good advice and community around us to help us process that and shape that.

But anyway, I went back to Oxford and that was really very

challenging, very difficult season.

Um, for me.

I worked as a nurse, which I deeply loved.

And um, I ended up meeting my husband and um, and then really it was a winding

journey is really how I would describe it, Anna of it was not straightforward.

It was not A led to B led to C led to D.

It was a winding journey of up and down.

And, um, there were disappointments along the way.

We had health challenges along the way, um, and we, we thought we

were gonna go to one country and then that didn't kind of work out.

And, and so it, it unfolded in a way that I absolutely did not expect.

And moments of really just trying to figure out what do I do?

I really want this and what do I want and who am I?

And um, and, and where is God in all of this?

But as with so much of life, right?

You look back and see the process and the journey that you've been on.

And, and God used that time to do so much work in us, as you know,

as, as people, my husband and I.

Um, that it was actually a really.

Like rich time, although it was also really difficult as well.

Um, so I think, you know, as we figure out and look at life, like who are we?

Who do we wanna be?

I think so often it looks so different to how we anticipated.

Um, but that, that's okay.

And again, We find God in that and in those moments that feel like

disappointment sometimes really acutely.

But as we journey through them and as we process them in a healthy, like

robust way, we actually can see so much of what God has kind of worked into

us as, as people, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does.

And I think you described it to me the other day as, um, when we're

talking as like, almost like, um, God's more interested in the

journey than a destination like we are very kind of get to end of the

journey kind of as people aren't we?

We're like, here's a goal.

I want to reach the goal and achieve the outcome, or whatever.

But actually God's quite often more interested in who we're becoming than

what we're doing, um, as people and, and yeah, again, your, your experiences

really speak strongly of that.

I think, um, it's that thing of like, you know, even though you sort of knew your

sort of end destination as it were from quite a young age, it took like quite

a num quite a lot of years, didn't it?

To kind of be where you are now and, um, quite a lot of detours along the way.

I, I find that really interesting.

And I think definitely, you know, Anna, there was a season in my life where I was,

I was holding on to this sense of call actually more tightly than was, than was

healthy and ended up holding on to the sense of call, actually tighter than, than

I was actually really holding onto God.

And, and, and that yeah, absolutely.

The jour it, it's about the journey rather than like the

destination and, and completely.

He's more interested, I think, in who we are becoming than at, than actually

like the external of of, of what we do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's, it's like, it's not just the journey, is it?

It's like who we're journeying with.

It's like, if, you know, it's that journeying with God.

I dunno, there's a lot about, about journeying with God

in scripture, isn't there?

Like, I, I can't help thinking of the Israelites and just how indirectly they

traveled to the Promised Land, even though they knew that's where they were headed.

It took them such a long time to get there.

Yeah.

You know, and generations of of people and it's just like, yeah, it's, yeah.

It's, it's such a, I mean, there, there's other stories too in the Bible

on there, but that's just the one that really sticks out and you just

think, yeah, you can really see that.

Um,

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then obviously more, so, more recently you've been working and

living in Rwanda, in East Africa and, um, but, you know, and that's.

I imagine got its own challenges and incredible gifts all kind of rolled into

one, like good and bad, like much of life.

But, um, what y over the last few years you've had a really big challenge,

haven't you, as well, in terms of like your personal life and your family.

Do you wanna tell us a bit more about that and kind of

how that's impacted your faith?

Yeah.

Great.

Yeah.

So, um, you know, we eventually a, after a detour through living in, in France,

we lived in the south of France for nearly four years, which was brilliant.

Uh, and, um, yeah, anyway, we, we arrived in, in Rwanda January, 2018.

So I've been here for just over five years now.

And, um, my mom was diagnosed, uh, with breast cancer, um, and she, she had

treatments and went into remission.

And then, um, summer 2019, She unfortunately relapsed from, uh, her, her

breast cancer and it, it had spread to different, different parts of her body.

And, um, and she ended up passing away in February, 2020 just before, uh, COVID

kind of arrived or we were aware anyway of who, of what Covid was in the UK.

And um, I think for me it, it's, it's been such a, a huge journey

over these last few years really.

Anna, and I think largely because when mom was first diagnosed and then

also when she relapsed, I, for me, I never actually asked God to heal her.

I, my own journey was not, One that, um, involved a lot of

Prayer, asking God to heal her.

Other people did.

For me, my, as her daughter, my journey was, okay, my goodness, I have to,

I have to adapt to this like, life changing, um, kind of situation.

And actually I have to adjust to the, the thought of my mom

not being with us anymore.

That was my own journey.

And was that, was that cause, was that because, um, because from

the start her prognosis wasn't great and because I mean Yeah.

Was that because, you know, you are kind of like this, you know, certainly

on paper this doesn't look good.

I mean, you are a nurse, so you know, cancer nurse, so you, you kind of

knew the sort of, um, Ins and outs of it, probably better than anyone.

Didn't you than your

yeah, and just to say, you know,

family and friends?

Yeah, and I'm super aware, you know, no, I have no idea who is listening

to this and who and who has their own journey to walk and I, um, but yeah,

you know, there's lots of different types of, of breast cancer and the

specific type that my mom had, um, was one that carried a poor prognosis.

And I, I knew that as a cancer care nurse and I was in some of the, Initial

appointments with the doctors, um, and had to, had to walk that journey of my,

you know, respecting very much what my mom did and didn't want to know, but, but

knowing really at times more than she did, but not being able to, to share that with

anybody other than really my husband Paul.

Um, so I knew from the get go that this was perhaps a different

journey than really now, you know, breast cancer carries.

Like good outcomes because of the advancements in, in treat.

Yeah.

But I knew for my mom, that was a, and then when she relapsed in summer 2019.

Um, because it had been short, uh, after her like treatment and

going into remission, you know, there wasn't a, she wasn't in

remission for a long period of time.

So, um, so I was carrying this and I think, yeah, you're right, Anna that

because I was carrying that additional kind of information, I suppose as a

cancer care nurse and was aware of, of.

Of some facts.

Um, and I think just, um, just, it was like, it was just the journey

I needed to walk, the journey.

I needed to walk as her daughter was one where I, I didn't actually,

um, You know, I, I didn't, I didn't pray hard for her healing.

That was other people's journey to walk, that they were doing that.

For me my journey was the one thing I asked and the one thing I prayed

was that I would be with her when she passed away or I would get

to, to spend some time with her.

We were living still in Rwanda and um, the plan was that I was gonna,

Go back to the UK to meet up with her doctors, spend time with mom and dad,

and kind of make a plan of action.

And most likely the kids and I come back to the UK and, you know, until

the end of my mom's, um, life.

Um, but yeah, I mean, things didn't turn out.

Um, the way that we expected it, it was, uh, mid-February 2020.

I was at home in Rwanda.

And um, and actually remarkably my sister.

Her husband and their kids were over visiting us for two weeks on

holiday, just, uh, having, uh, having time together, which was fantastic.

And we got a call from my dad.

And whereas we expected my mom to have months, um, to live, unfortunately.

Uh, to cut a long story short, she'd had some, uh, tests and stuff done at

hos in the hospital and she'd had a heart, um, kind of a heart episode.

And that had significantly weakened her heart.

And the doctor said, actually, you know, we don't think there's months anymore.

This really is, is looking like weeks.

So dad called us and said, look guys, you know, you really need to come

back to the UK when your sister does.

So when my sister and her husband.

You know, were due to finish their holiday with us.

The plan was we would go back with them.

Um, and, but then, uh, less than kind of 24 hours later, we got a second call from

my dad saying, look, there's been a second Heart episode your mom's had, and it, it's

actually now looking like it's it's hours.

Um, Like she, she's gonna pass away today.

So that was very, very early on the Saturday morning that we

received that, that phone call.

And my sister and her husband were awake and the four of us just sat

outside on WhatsApp talking to my dad.

And, and I just, I just lost it, Anna.

I just, I lost it in that moment.

I, um, and when I, what I mean by that is I just, I just broke down and, um, Kind

of disappeared around the side of our house and just like, let it all, all go.

I think I yelled.

I think I screamed.

I think I cried.

I think I shouted.

And in that moment it felt like what I can describe as like just

a crack appear, just a crack.

In my relationship with God, I was so incredibly disappointed.

I was so profoundly disappointed and felt so profoundly let down by

him because my, the thing was, I had never asked him to heal her.

All I'd asked was, can I, that I just wanted to be with her, but

have time with her before she passed away, and, you know, when she passed

away and I didn't, didn't get that.

That was the plan, and it didn't happen.

Yeah.

And not only that, you went from having what you thought was like weeks

and weeks to like literally no time at all, like maybe months and months

to weeks and weeks, and then, you know, just over a span of 24 hours.

It all sort of, that time you thought you had just

yeah.

That was, that was exactly, yeah.

that's so tough.

Yeah.

exactly what it was.

In, within 24 hours, we went from thinking, we had months, we had

a plan to, okay, now it's weeks, but the plan was still to go back,

you know, the following week.

And then from weeks to actually, you know, it's, it's not even days, it's now hours.

Um, and had to make the incredible difficult decision together as a family.

Um, we to not actually, we could, we.

To not actually go back.

Like we couldn't make it.

We were looking up flights and when the planes left, and at that point we,

we lived three hours from the airport.

Um, so, um, you know, we were looking up flights, what was possible and just,

um, it, it wasn't physically possible to, to get back within the timeframe

that, um, That we, that we had.

So we actually made the incredibly difficult, um, painful decision

of, of not trying to go back.

So we spent that day, that Saturday together as a family, um, on WhatsApp with

my dad and on, on video with my mom, able to talk with her, able to pray with her.

Um, and, and those were really precious, um, hours really.

But the disappointment for me, Was very profound, I think is the

word I would use, but I suppose, um, to, to not stay, you know, in,

in that place and in that moment.

I think for me, Anna, you know, mo looking now at three, three plus years

down the road, really the miracle for me, it feels like now the miracle, like my

miracle was not that my mom was healed on.

You know, this earth, um, she is healed.

She's in heaven.

But the, my miracle was not that I got to see my mom healed

and her life extended on earth.

My miracle, though, feels like I, I still have a relationship with God and I still

love him, and I still want to know him, and I believe him and know him to be

kind and good and merciful and loving.

And that feels like my miracle because honestly in February, 2020, I, I didn't

know if that would ever be possible again.

And I remember so clearly.

Um, so we flew back to the UK, uh, um, you know, with my sister and her

husband and kids, we, we went back to the UK and obviously to be with my dad

and, and prepare for my mom's funeral.

And I remember so clearly walking in the first Sunday morning, we were back in the

UK going back to what I describe as our, our home church in Oxford, in the UK.

And it, it was singing, right?

That's often what we do at church.

We sing, we worship.

Um, And that's when we arrived.

Uh, people were singing and, you know, the lyrics, the words to the songs

are projected up on the screen, and all I wanted to do was just like,

turn around and walk out again.

And two of my friends came and stood.

I, they stood either side of me and, um, one of them, my friend Kirsty,

she grabbed my hand and, um, I, I turned to her and I looked at her and

I said, Kirsty, I can't, I can't sing.

I cannot sing.

I can't sing these words cause I don't know if I believe them anymore.

And I dunno if I ever will believe them anymore.

Um, and she grabbed my hand and she looked me in the eyes

and she said, Ruth, it's okay.

You don't have to sing.

Like I'll sing for you and I'll keep singing for you until

you are ready to sing again.

And it was like in that moment, she gave me the gift of like, of, of, of community,

a friendship, a physical presence.

You know, she was physically there.

She gave me permission.

She didn't say, for goodness sake, get your act together.

Of course, you know, it's true.

She gave me permission and space, you know, she said, you don't have to sing.

Like you don't have to be ready.

And then thirdly, Anna, she gave me hope.

Like I didn't have any at that point, but she gave me her hope.

And it was like she, she said, you know, hold on.

I, I have hope.

Hold onto my hope until you are ready to have hope again.

And I don't think she really knew what she did in that moment, but it was like in

that moment she gave me those three things that, that physical presence, community,

permission to be in the space I was in.

And then lastly, that sense of you don't have hope right now, Ruth.

But I do, so hold onto mine.

And I, and I did, you know, I did, um, hold onto hers and, and many

others who were around me giving me permission, giving me that physical

presence community, although Covid then made that very difficult.

Um,

Yeah, for sure.

um, but, you know, get people gave me permission and then kind

of enabled me to hold onto their hope when I didn't have any yet.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

that's really good.

I think that's a really powerful kind of picture, isn't it, in that moment

of what grieving in community with others looks like when it's done well.

It's like people standing with you or sitting with you in the pain and sort

of being there and being strong when you can't be and you, it's that so precious.

It really is.

You know, all of, all of that that you've been through, it is just really tough.

You know, it's tough because of all the disappointment that you felt in, in the

kind of process and the disappointment with God and feeling like all that time

was suddenly snatched away from you.

And it was, it was difficult because it happened right before Covid

lockdown started all over the world.

And so, yeah, it was quite an isolating season that you then went into straight.

After the funeral and when you're still just processing that burial or grief,

really, um, But I wonder, obviously you did process it cuz you said, you

know, you came out at the other end and you know, the miracle is that

you're still here and you have hope and you still have a faith in God.

But I'm, I'm wondering sort of like, you know, grief is so often the process

of grieving is so often transforming.

I think, and in my experience, it, it, it can, I work with people who

are grieving quite often and, uh, It.

Grief is transforming, I think, but it can transform you for better or for worse.

And you know, I, I'm interested, I guess in kind of how that.

Yeah.

How that grief check process changed you and kind of, you know, how, how

did you process it all, I guess, and get to that point of hope again?

And sort of how has it been a transforming force in your life

and in, in your faith journey?

So how has it changed you?

Has it shaped you and made you, obviously you, you are different person to, to

who you were three or four years ago cause of what you've been through.

So how, how has it changed you, if you could sort of pin it down?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question and great

reflections, Anna, and I think, you know, I think one of the things.

One of the things that Covid took from us, and when I say us, I

mean across the globe universally.

Covid meant that so, so many people were grieving in isolation.

Grieving disconnected from community and disconnected from family even.

Um, and I think, I think that that was one of, for me, one of the difficult things.

On the one hand, it gave me a bit more space in some ways, although, you know,

having four kids in lockdown at home, Not exactly, not that much space and

I'll, you know, and, but, um, but I think, you know, I, like, I just so,

so believe that grief and grieving.

It is meant to happen and be processed in community with others.

And it's costly.

It's costly because you, you have to be vulnerable and you feel very

vulnerable and you feel exposed.

But, um, for me, such a big part of my journey and my transformation

has been about allowing people into my grief journey.

Um, And, you know, one of my, one of my friends and, and mentors said to

me, you know, Ruth, like ev everybody at some point in their life will,

will experience grief, will lose, you know, the parent if, if nothing else.

And, um, you know, it like this is also about allowing people into

my grief journey to, cause it also gives other people permission.

It gives others permission to, to grieve and to process that in community

and authentically and vulnerably.

Um, I think so much of, you know, you, so much of you when you're in pain, like

we're hardwired to protect ourselves in so many ways and when we're in

pain, We want to protect ourselves.

And that means we wanna close in on ourselves when actually it's having those

safe spaces, those safe relationships where you feel like permission is

given for you just to be as you are.

And I think my friends, you know, my family pr like really

did provide that for me.

And I think just, you know, lastly, I think, yeah, it has

profoundly changed me and I am.

I don't know how to articulate this, but I, I'm so, I'm so grateful for

the change that God has done in me.

I'm not saying I'm grateful for that.

My mom is not here.

I would choose her to be here a hundred percent, but I'm so thankful

that God is so much bigger, right?

He's bigger than grief.

He's bigger than death.

And he redeems everything.

And what I mean by that is even, you know, in my profound disappointment,

like he, he, he took that and actually he's turned it into something.

That means I have a stronger sense of myself, of who I am.

I have a stronger relationship with him because, you know, I hit, I hit the wall

of my own at the end of my own resources.

Um, you know, I was empty.

I didn't know how to do this.

I've not done it before.

Um, you know, I consider myself, I liked being a competent person,

Anna, and I was not competent.

You know, I was not able to just get on and do life as, as

No, no, no one's a professional, uh, grieving are they and talked.

I've done it a few times.

It's, you know, it's not something we're taught to do even.

So,

but it's like in coming, in coming to the end of ourselves.

And I know it sounds like, I know it sounds like a bit of a cliche, and I'm

sorry for that in some ways, but when we get to the end of ourselves and when

we get to places of brokenness, if we choose, if we choose to lean into God,

if we choose to push into community, if we choose to keep ongoing day after day.

Like he really does work that in a transformation like in us.

And um, and it's somehow so precious and it's somehow something that can't be

taken, I don't believe from us, and it can actually be a really beautiful thing.

And that's the mystery of God, and that's the mystery of knowing him.

And that's the mystery of the gospel and of Jesus and of journeying with Him.

And I, I can't imagine.

For me, going through my grief journey without God and without,

you know, looking at the life of Jesus, I, I, I really can't.

Yeah, and there's something that's, I think so freeing as well about getting

to that point where, you know, it's, it's easy to want to be competent,

capable, someone who does the right things, all, all that kind of stuff.

But actually getting to that point where, You do hit a wall, you

do fall apart, you are angry and you know, um, just don't know if

things will ever be the same again.

And then finding that God's still there and he's still the same in that and that

he still loves you even when you look like a mess and you don't wanna speak to him.

And you know, you are just incredibly angry and disappointed in him.

Like there's something quite freeing about that I think as well.

Um, yeah,

totally.

And I think that that's a great word actually to use.

And that's a word I would use to describe my myself.

You know, I think I was somebody growing up who just.

I just somehow felt like I had to have it all together and I

wanted to have it all together.

You know, I wanted to look like I had it all together.

I wanted to project that image of No, I, I, I'm good.

I, I, you know, I know I'm doing, I'm in control.

I've got it together.

But, you know, something like, as there's other things in life, it's, you

know, lo any kind of loss, any kind of disappointment, any kind of grief, it, it.

You know, I, I couldn't have it all together or hold it all together.

I could have kept on trying, but at some point, you know, it would've been

really detrimental to, to my wellbeing.

I had to, to let go.

And, um, there's a freedom like really in that.

Yeah.

And have you found that it's changed the way you kind of relate to other people

who are hurting or maybe going through, not necessarily going through the same

kind of grief, like obviously there's grief for losing a parent, but also

there's a hundred, a hundred thousand different ways on there that people

are hurting and breaking in this world.

But do you feel like it's given you like more empathy for others

around you who are, you know, going through hard things as well.

Mm.

I, I, I think it has, I hope it has.

Um, I hope it has.

I feel like, I feel, you know, often like a, a connection or an empathy to,

to people that are experiencing Yes.

Some kind of loss, disappointment.

Um, Grief.

I think that, um, I and I, it, it is definitely resulted in me

really desiring authentic like relationship and authentic friendship.

I find it very hard.

One of the things I need to work on at the moment is I find it

very hard to like to, to deal with the surface level crap basically.

You know, that, that

Yeah.

the small talk, I'm terrible.

you're like, cut the small talk and tell me how, what's really going

on and how you're really doing.

Cause especially, I mean, I dunno, I dunno about in Rwanda, probably the Africans

are probably much better at this than us, but like certainly here it's like, you?

Yeah, great.

It's just like, it's like instinct, isn't it?

You don't even think I'm fine, I'm good.

It's, yeah, we all do it.

We all do it.

It's like, I haven't really got 20 minutes to tell you right now, but

like five things have gone wrong today already, so we just all do it, don't we?

We like math and we just, it's almost like second nature.

We don't even think about it.

It's like, hi.

Yeah, I'm good.

I'm fine.

But yeah.

You, you're so right, it's, it's so important to, to be able to go

deeper than that in terms of, you know, just looking after, even just

for your own emotional health, like you say, it's, it's so important.

and I think sometimes we need it.

It connects with what I was saying before, but we need, sometimes we

need that permission, don't we?

Sometimes we need, you know, an interaction, a friendship, a community,

a space, a conversation where we feel like the other person actually is,

there's a sense of permission giving of like, actually I wanna be real with you.

Um, you know, and I want you to be real with me.

And that builds deeper authenticity and deeper connection.

So I think my journey has really made me.

Um, you know, desire and long for like, authentic relationship,

authentic friendship, authentic community, authentic space.

And I think the church has a massive call, um, or role to play in creating

those communities and those spaces for people to feel, again, it links right for

people to feel heard, for people to have.

You know, be given permission to be real.

And again, like for people to hold onto other, other people's hope

if, if they're not in that place yet to really hope for themselves.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

And I think, you know, different church spaces, some sometimes do

it better than others, don't they?

And, but I, I, I agree.

I think it's such an important role that.

Church and, and we as Christians, as individuals.

Ha you know, it's so important that we kind of lead by example on this.

So, yeah, no, it's something I'm really passionate about too, as you know.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I could keep talking to you about this all day.

I'm, I'm kind of aware of time that we're gonna have to draw

our conversation to a close soon.

But I mean, if you kind of like reflect back on your journey and sort of, I

know you know, There's plenty of years ahead, Le left yet, but, but sort of

looking back over the last 20 years or so and sort of life up to now and kind

of the conversation we've just had, what would you say is kind of one of

your big takeaways or perhaps one big lesson that you've learned up till now?

If you could kind of distill it down to like just one thing.

I know, I know this is like a really difficult question, isn't it?

is

I mean, is there one kind thing that like really stands out that you.

Perhaps, you know, something, I, I know this, or I've learned this, or this is

a motto or a lesson I now live by and I wanna share with other listeners.

Mm.

Yeah, I think it's super hard.

When you asked me this question I was like, ah, I don't know.

But I think for me it would be a sense of like, of, of knowing God

leads me to knowing myself that, you know, if I, and vice versa.

So like if I want to know God more.

I actually really need to know myself too.

And then in knowing God more than I actually understand and know myself more.

And I think sometimes as Christians we can.

We can live a disconnected, you know, life of like, okay, there's

the kind of spiritual element of our relationship with God and who we are.

And then there's like us, our emotions, our personalities.

But you know, it, it is like you can't have one with without the other.

For me to know God is actually to really know myself and, and I think that, I

feel like I've been on that journey.

Especially the last 20 years and then even more intensely the last

kind of three to to five years.

And, um, and that there's again, freedom, you know, in that there's

a freedom that comes in knowing and understanding ourselves and therefore

knowing God more that the two, those two things are so kind of connected.

Um, so yeah, that, that's what I would say, you know, to know

God is to know myself and.

To know myself is also to to know God, who he is.

Mm.

There's this quote that just, that just reminded of me of, um, which is with

God's help, I should become more myself.

Um, I think it's Deitrich Bonhoeffer but I'm not entirely sh Sure.

So don't quote me on that, anyone.

But yeah, with God's help, I, I should become more myself.

And it's kind of the same thing, isn't it?

It's like the two are.

You know, God creates us.

And so of course he, you know, he knows us better than ourselves and brings

us into greater fullness of that.

You know, as we get to know him more.

It, it kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

And yet it's like a lifetime of learning it and doing it.

it is.

And it's about, you know, that, that it's connected to so many things.

You know, it's connected to pro, to processing, like we've talked about grief

and disappointment today, together, you know, it, it's about processing grief

and disappointment healthily in a healthy way, you know, to do that, I, I need to, I

need to understand myself, you know, more.

Um, so yeah.

So much in that.

Really?

Yeah, exactly.

And we could keep talking about this all day.

I know we could, but I'm aware of time.

So, thank you so much for joining us today, um, just and giving up your time

and just, you know, sharing your story so honestly and vulnerably with us.

Um, I really appreciate that.

And just like that, we have reached the end of another fascinating conversation.

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