What happens to your leadership when the pressure is on?

Most organizations have values written on their websites. But according to today's guest, our real values are revealed not when things are easy—but when uncertainty, competing priorities, and difficult decisions force us to choose how we will respond.

In this episode, I speak with Kim Kucinskas, Director of the TIME Transformation Lab at Humentum, about what it means to lead with integrity during a time of unprecedented change in the humanitarian and development sector.

Together, we explore why many traditional leadership approaches are becoming less effective, how uncertainty is changing the skills leaders need, and how values can serve as a practical guide when there are no perfect answers.

Whether you are leading a team through funding cuts, organizational change, or simply trying to navigate an increasingly complex world, this conversation offers practical insights on how to stay grounded in what matters most.

In This Episode, You'll Learn:

• Why values are more than words—and how they show up through daily behaviors

• What "pressure reveals values" really means for leaders

• Why self-awareness is essential for values-based leadership

• How uncertainty is reshaping leadership in the humanitarian and development sector

• The difference between leadership skills that worked in stable environments and those needed today

• How to make decisions with integrity when there is no clear right answer

• Why courage is required to lead change, even when others around you are not

• How values audits can help organizations bring their values to life

• Practical ways to strengthen collaboration during times of scarcity and competition

• The powerful concept of "elbows down, not elbows out"

• Why the future is built through the small choices leaders make every day

Memorable Quotes:

"Values are the fancy words on the website. Behaviors are where values show up in everyday life."

"Pressure doesn't create values—it reveals them."

"We often seek moral clarity. What if instead we focused on making decisions with integrity, even when they aren't perfect?"

"Leadership today requires us to bridge and build at the same time."

"We can't control uncertainty, but we can control how we show up within it."

About Kim Kucinskas

Kim Kucinskas is Director of the TIME Transformation Lab at Humentum, where she works with organizations, networks, and leaders to navigate complex change and build more equitable, resilient, and future-ready systems. Through the Transformation Lab, Kim helps organizations make sense of uncertainty, strengthen collaboration, and develop practical approaches for leading through transition and transformation.

Resources Mentioned:

• Humentum Living Our Values Guide

• TIME Transformation Lab

• Kim's Linkedin

Kim's Podcast: The Sector Debrief

Humentum Course in Collaboration with Torrey: Leading NGO Teams Through Uncertainty

Watch on YouTube Here

When pressure increases, what happens to your leadership?

Do you become more collaborative or more controlling?

More intentional or more reactive?

Hi, my name is Tori, and welcome to the Modern Humanitarian and

Development Leader podcast.

Many organizations have values written on their websites, but as

today's guest reminds us, our real values show up in the decisions

we make when things are difficult.

At a time of unprecedented uncertainty, funding shifts, and rapid change

across the humanitarian and development sector, leaders are being

asked to navigate complexity unlike anything we've ever seen before.

My guest today is Kim Kucinskas, director of the Time Transformation

Lab at Humentum, where she helps organizations and networks navigate

complex change and build more resilient, values-driven futures.

In this episode, you will learn why pressure often reveals the gap between

our stated values and our actual behavior, how leaders can stay aligned with

their values when facing uncertainty, competing priorities, and difficult

decisions, and practical ways to create a culture where values move beyond

words and become everyday actions.

If you've ever wondered how to lead with integrity when you don't have all the

answers, this conversation is for you.

Let's dive in

Welcome, Kim, to the podcast.

It's so good to have you here today.

How are you doing?

Good, good.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, of course.

And today we're gonna be talking about one of my favorite subjects,

and I believe it is yours too.

Yay.

And it has to do with values.

And it's such a term that we use quite often, and yet we don't

always define what does values mean.

So what does values mean to you?

So yes, I agree with you.

I think of it in terms of three things.

So the word values we use a lot.

That's really, I think what is the thing that matters the most to me-

or to you or to your organization?

So that's a values.

And then oftentimes we use the same term values and principles interchangeably,

but a principle is actually, for me, it's the thing that's going to

kind of help us to apply the values.

And then the next step is behavior.

So that's the actual, the culture, the actions, the habits, the things

that you do every single day.

So the values are the fancy words on the website.

The principles are the things that kind of are those statements that help us apply

it, and the behaviors, I think, is where it shows up in the every day, and that's

what I always find the most interesting.

Okay.

And do you have a very simple example to give people a little more concrete

idea of what that looks like?

I… Yes, I do.

So oftentimes we talk about equity, right?

Every, many people have equity on equity and inclusion or some version

of that in their kind of core value.

And that is an important core value.

What does that look like in w- in behavior though, for example?

And that's what I find interesting.

Right on my wall right here I have this thing called an equity pause checklist,

and it's a s- series of questions, right?

So whose voice is missing and why?

What inequities might we be reinforcing?

Are we addressing the root causes or just the symptoms?

These are, I think, guiding questions that can help us.

And then the behavior that looks like is when I'm making a decision,

who's sitting at the table?

Is it the right voices?

Who did I even ask to sit?

Who… to decide who should be sitting at the table.

And that is kind of a positive set of behavior.

But oftentimes when we talk about values under pressure, it's okay

when things get hard, what do I do?

So from an equity perspective or an inclusion perspective

if I mess up, what do I do?

Or if, when I'm looking at my compensation policies, how is that playing out in

terms of how I make decisions, how, when things get hard and we have to move fast,

but I know that including more voices around the table is going to take longer.

How do I manage that tension or that trade-off?

Those are the behaviors.

Interesting.

So equity is a value.

The questions help with the principle, and then the behavior is the action part.

When you're talking about like you just mentioned we're hearing a lot about

uncertainty and disruption in the sector.

And what for you feels the most different about this moment

for leaders in our sector?

What's interesting about this moment is that if you've worked in

the sector for any period of time, no one is a stranger to change.

Change is always happening.

For me, what's different about this is the fact that it's the level of

complexity and it's the pure scale.

So this is not one specific technical area.

This is not one geography.

This is the entire sector that is changing, and it's happening in a global

context that's also rapidly changing.

So the level of complexity is for many of us, is kind of at a level

that we've never experienced before.

The way that I've been thinking about it is, I don't know if you're

familiar with the two loops model.

It's a- … it's a systems change framework that basically says,

okay, there's a dominant system, and that dominant system is collapsing.

And I think people were kind of changing around the edges for a number of years.

But last year, in January 2025, the really, the dominant system with the

collapse of USAID and then everything else that happened, so it wasn't just

USAID afterwards, is, was the beginning of the collapse of the dominant system.

And what that means is that new systems are emerging, and what

will come out, in my opinion, is not just one new s- new dominant

system, but a multiple of systems.

So you're going to have, locally- locally funded, and you're going to have some

people that are probably gonna do the same things that they were, and you're

going to have more private sector partnerships, and you're gonna have

local governments, and there's gonna be all different ways of doing things.

And so if I was in the old dominant system, I have a choice.

I can either kind of go down with the ship, or I can try and transition and

kind of bridge over to what's new.

And so this is where I think it's interesting from a values perspective,

because you are both… If I'm a leader, I am both trying to transition and build,

so bridge and build at the same time.

It's a lot of competing pressures in a world where I don't

know what's going to happen.

So the the leadership skills that were serving me in the old system,

things like hero leadership, where I always had an answer, and I could

go to the board with an answer.

Or things like, a little bit more centralized in controls, a little

bit more risk-averse, because you knew what was going to happen.

Those things are not the leadership skills and competencies that are

needed in a transition moment.

In a transition moment, you need much more, I think, co-leadership,

we're seeing more of, horizontal leadership, shared leadership.

You need things like to be really good at my understanding

myself and self-regulating so I can co-regulate others.

Because there's so many more kind of relational, emotional

things coming in right now.

So those are the types of… And then being really comfortable

with navigating deep uncertainty, which is a skill set that some

people have and some people don't.

And I don't know that we're talking about it enough, to be quite honest with you.

Yeah, such a great point.

And I think yeah I agree with you, what you're saying about

this fundamental change.

And I've been interviewing a lot of leaders around uncertainty and how

they're feeling right now, and a lot of what you say really resonates.

And I think, What makes it even stronger for a lot of people is it's like before

there's always been uncertainty, but now it's just in your face on a daily basis.

And so it does become like like you're saying, like a skill set that leaders

now need to navigate, like how do we lead through this uncertain times?

And yeah, so I think we'll get into that a little bit more.

But yeah, and I really liked what the Humentum Living our Values guide says when

you talk about pressure reveals values.

So how can leaders recognize when pressure might be causing them

to move away from their values?

What might be some symptoms of that?

Again, so this is where self-awareness comes in, right?

So it's both things.

It's self-awareness so I can hold myself to account, but it's also having a culture

in your organization where others can hold you to account, where there's that…

You're… There's both a level of people of awareness of what the values are,

'cause so many times it's on a website.

You might look at it once a year if you're lucky, but no one's really

living them, walking the talk, living the values on a daily basis.

So if it's not embedded in your culture, then you don't have that language or

that tool to hold someone to account.

So if equity was in, was one of my values, and I did something that you know, was an

anti-value- … if it's not top of mind, then I'm not gonna be thinking about it,

and no one else is gonna be using that as a language to hold me to account.

So that's, I think, one of those things.

Just h- calling it out and having the conversation.

It's the act of having the conversation within the organization

to identify what those behaviors are.

The pressure under values.

I like anti-values a lot because I think we can say, "Okay, what are all the

things that we could do wrong?" It gives us the permission to think about What

someone- maybe not me, could do wrong.

And then you can flip them into, okay, so what does that behavior look like?

So if one of my core values is equity, I might say, "Okay, when

I feel uncomfortable, I wanna have control." So I am going to… my

tendency may be to dominate the space.

But then I'm taking space.

So how do I cede space when in a time of pressure?

That might look like I'm avoiding dominating a space.

I am practicing being humble, listening, being in solidarity with.

That's an action.

That's a value under pressure because so much, so many times we say, "Okay,

Our thought leadership needs to be out there in order to get the funding, in

order to bolster our reputation and our brand," or just my own feelings

of ego, to be quite honest with you.

In that case, it's a, I need to be reflective enough to understand

that, introspective enough, and then saying, "Actually, I am going

to cede space and find out how do I be in solidarity with instead of."

And that is not… That's hard.

It's just hard.

Yeah.

Sure.

Sure.

So in that case what do you recommend a leader do?

A lot of it is, it's the, it's practice.

This is what is so interesting about behaviors, 'cause it's practice.

Being we talk a lot about being resilient every single day.

But resiliency is just a series of choices.

Living with integrity or working with integrity is just a series of choices.

And what's the beauty of it is when you make the wrong choice, you get to fix it.

You get to make it right if you don't make the right choice every

single time, 'cause none of us will.

And that's why I, I believe strongly in, in working out loud and learning out loud.

I think we need more about that- in the sector because it reduces the pressure.

If I'm constantly working out loud, then I'm saying, "This is what I'm struggling

with. I may not get it right." "And if I don't get it right, I'll try and repair

it and make it better. But I'm trying to do this, and these are the assumptions I'm

making, and this is the thought process."

There are oftentimes the trade-offs and the decisions that leaders

have to make these days, there's not going to be a right answer.

Yeah.

And so I have been thinking about this quite a lot lately.

We often seek, when we think about values, we seek to have this moral clarity.

I don't think there are many cases in these days where there's going to be

moral clarity, 'cause then it would be easy and it would be done by now.

Yeah.

So instead of moral clarity, can we think about how do we make decisions in

a way that's with integrity and that's intentional even if it's not perfect?

Yeah, I like that a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like the idea of, like you said, talking about it out loud.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I think that- one of the things I've noticed when I teach the course that

I'll be doing also with Humentum is that leaders, a lot of times they,

when they're learning something that even their organization is telling

them they want you to apply, right?

For example collective leadership like you're talking about, how

do we empower others and be more equitable and inclusive and so on.

Even when they're learning those things and their organization is giving them

permission to do I find that they still question their own ability to apply

it when those around them are not.

And so the thing that I reinforce is you need to have courage, right?

Courage is a big part.

Number one, the definition of leadership, leader, means going

first, and number two to go first, you will probably need courage.

And I think that's what this, making this change takes.

It's not gonna be overnight, but if we're, like, waiting for our organization to

make the change for us, it's likely…

the change is coming from us.

It needs to come from us.

Also I encourage leaders to tie organizational values with the reason

that I'm doing this is because this is in line with the organizational

values and therefore gives them permission to make that change.

But it's not always easy.

I'm sure you probably observe that as well.

Yeah.

It's really hard, and especially when it's, you're kind of having to, like-

re-steer a ship in terms of culture.

So if that's, it's not the way that it's always been done.

But I like what you're saying, which is to actually call it

out, make the connection too.

Because then it's not me.

This is not, a choice that I'm just making willy-nilly.

This is something that's rooted in something we all agreed on, and we may not

remember that we agreed on it, but we did.

And so one of the things that I am suggesting to a lot of organizations

right now is to do a values audit.

Because it might have made sense five years ago, but maybe it needs an update.

And even if it doesn't need an update, is there a sense of

ownership within the organization?

So just the act of getting people together and doing, word mapping of

what is important to them and tracking that back to the values and bringing it

to life, it does breathe life into it, and it kind of reinstills a commitment.

And you probably will make some tweaks.

Maybe you won't have a whole new set of values, but you probably will make

some tweaks and look at those behaviors, look at those, behaviors under pressure.

Because then it brings it, it brings it back to life so

that you can then come back.

It's just a nice tool to have in your toolkit as a leader if it's something

that you are already wanting to do and you don't know where to start.

It's a great point.

Yeah.

And not only that, but it creates ownership, right?

Yeah.

Because maybe before the values were on the wall, but I had no connection

to them because I didn't feel involved in the creation of them.

But when you're, doing an audit, like you're saying, you're revisiting all

of that so you can be more involved and really actually understand what does the

value look like on a day-to-day basis.

The Humentum Living Our Values guide talks about values not just as ideals,

but behaviors and daily practices.

So what is one small change that leaders can make this week to

live their values in practice?

Yeah, so this guide, so it's a free co-created resource.

I spent about, six or nine months with a working group where we really

dove into this, and this came out of a working group of network leaders that

were coming up with a set of guiding values for how we work together.

And coming out of that, there was all sorts of working out loud and

learning on h- on this process and what we were talking about, and we

were all digging into these things.

One thing that I've been thinking quite about, a lot

about recently is collaboration.

How do we all work together?

I think we know that there is this need.

There's less resources.

There's more need, so how do we work together more?

I think an example of what I can do, sometimes we jump to the most expensive,

if you will, from a resource perspective.

Not even just money, but in terms of time, effort, all of these things solution.

But what's the smallest thing that I can do?

So maybe instead of not collaborating and setting up this brand-new thing, I could

just, decide not to compete with somebody.

We work in a sector where the reality is that oftentimes the external incentives

create situations where we are frenemies.

So we may like each other, we may respect the work that we're doing, but we're

also in competition with each other.

There are these competing intrinsic motivations for the work that we do.

And I think calling that out is important.

That's one thing that we can just do, is say, "This is how the system is set up

to create fractures or fragmentation. How do we work together to reduce that?" That

might just be deciding not to compete.

It might just be deciding to coexist with each other.

I was in a an event last month, and we all decided at the very start we

were gonna operate on the principle of elbows down, not elbows out.

So every time I started to feel that kind of competition

or defensiveness and we had…

So we had that kind of code word.

"Okay, elbows down. Take a deep breath, not elbows out," because it's just

our natural… The way that oftentimes both the system operates, but just as

human beings we do- … as individuals.

And so as an example of how you live your behaviors in daily, I think that's one of

the biggest ones that I have been working on- is how do you- Even if we can't get

to pure collaboration, how do we coexist?

How do we not compete?

How do we communicate better at a lower level of kind of that spectrum?

I don't know.

It's something that I've been thinking- I love that … and working on myself.

Yeah.

It's such a great way of looking at it because, like you said, the more big

and overwhelming we make it, the less likely we'll actually take action on it.

So I love- Yeah … that idea of what's the next smallest step that

you can take toward collaboration, whatever that means for you.

Yeah.

I've been thinking… So last year I was in a convening space, and we

were kind of ma- trying to make sense of everything that was happening at,

as, at, with the collapse of USAID.

And someone said to me, "It feels like the soil we've been planted in is poisoned,"

and that has stuck with me ever since.

And they were like, we are a plant, and we're planted in soil, and the

soil is now poisoned, and maybe it always was." And so the question

becomes what do you do in that?

And the thing that I've been, thinking quite a lot about over the last 18 months

is when that happens all we can do is try and regenerate the soil we're planted in.

I can't regenerate the soil you are planted in.

I can't regenerate the soil across the ocean.

I can only regenerate the soil I am planted in.

So what… How do I do that?

And so much of it comes down to just how we are relate to each other, the

small decisions we make every day, and that's where living your values comes in.

Love it.

Also, this goes, kind of circles back to what do we actually have control

over during uncertainty, right?

Exactly.

It's ourselves.

It's the way we show up, the way we operate emotionally

mentally, like, all these things.

As leaders especially, that's where we have control.

So yeah it's that's a great way of looking at it.

Another thing that I teach in the course that I'll be offering through Humentum is

the idea that is mentioned in the guide, which is, our current actions today are

aligning us to a certain future tomorrow.

And so what future are we building through how we operate today?

I think it's such an interesting… I don't think people always think

about this, if we just focus on the small steps, we are going somewhere.

So the question is where are we going?

What advice would you have for leaders if they are building

the future they want or not?

So kind of similar to what I was saying earlier about how, the old way

of doing things feels like it's… it feels like it's crumbling, it

feels like it's losing its fit for purpose, the reality is that it is.

And so I think recognizing that and trying to think about where do you

need to get to, where do you need to transition to, is the question

I think that's on everyone's mind.

And we just don't know, and I don't think we'll know for a few

years, to be quite honest with you.

So we're gonna be living in uncertainty for quite some time.

What I tell leaders is that if, any leader that is operating

today is basically wearing three different hats at any given time.

So you're trying to maintain business as usual, keep your programs running,

keep the lights on, keep your staff being paid, and you're wearing

that kind of management hat, right?

Where you're just trying to keep things going.

And that feels like it's, probably feels like it's slipping, 'cause

it's losing its fit for purpose, like you're that business model.

And then you're trying to wear your visionary hat.

So think about okay, what am I betting on?

What future am I trying to predict?

And there's so many possibilities out there that it can feel overwhelming.

And then you're wearing your innovator hat.

So how do you get from here to there?

How do you get from today's business model to this uncertain future?

And most of us, it's almost impossible to be good at being a visionary, a manager,

and an innovator all at the same time.

Or, even having all of those skills.

So most of us, a lot of leaders were really good at that leadership management

hat- where things were relatively stable.

Yeah.

Being that entrepreneur or innovator is a different skill set.

And I'd be interested to hear like what you're seeing and what you

think people need, because I do think that's where people are getting stuck.

They either get in this analysis paralysis because they get so overwhelmed

and they don't know what to do, or they just jump to the first thing-

that they can think of, and it's usually what they're comfortable with.

So it may not be the most the best course of action because the future is

not gonna be the same as what it was.

So are there any reflection questions that you would encourage leaders to

ask themselves after listening to this?

I think the questions come natural.

Once you know what the core, your core values are, that's really what guides you.

And thinking about how to embed and weave your values into your every

day is the question that I think should be top of mind right now.

The process of transition, change, navigating this complexity that we're all

going through right now, again, it's not something that there's a destination to.

So the process is the work.

So I guess the big question that I would think about is, are your values

embedded enough into the way that you work to set yourself up for success?

Because we're not just trying to get through something.

Ideally, you would be trying to proactively build something.

As we get through this- … what are we building that is more equitable,

that is stronger, that is more sustainable that meets more needs, that

is more impactful than it was before?

And if that means questioning truth to power, if that means asking

the tough questions- … if that means, acknowledging when you do

harm and trying to repair when all possible, that's building in real

time a better space than just the big external things we often talk about.

Tell me what else would you like to share about the work that TIME has been doing,

or anything else you'd like to share?

The TIME Transformation Lab has been something that I have been running

through Humentum for a number of years.

It's a lab, so we're working out loud to think about how to help organizations

and ecosystems navigate complex change.

And so really we are working out loud right now to say, how do we

do this work together, and how do we bridge and build to the future?

And from that, we've built this bridge methodology on how to help people make

sense of what's happening so that they can think about anticipate what the

future will need and come up with things.

And anything else you'd like to share?

I'm interested to hear from you about this, about the coursework that you

do, and the what's coming up, and what you're learning from it all.

Yeah I'm very excited that we're partnering Humentum and my organization

to deliver a course for humanitarian and development leaders which focuses

around how to lead in uncertainty.

So how do we first of all form our vision for ourselves as leaders,

then how do we use that to align our actions to our daily to, where we

want to go to achieve our vision?

How do we empower those around us through coaching?

How do we become more resilient in our relationship with uncertainty?

And how do we let go of ways of thinking and behaving that are not serving us?

So I call it the CLEAR leadership model, but it's embedded in the course.

And yeah, it's a six-week course.

I was gonna ask you what is the number one thing that people

coming into the, these courses…

what is the biggest- pain point they have, and then- can you help them get out of it?

, I think that, there's what people think they need and then

the what's they actually need.

That's true.

So I think what they think they need is some kind of a leadership skill

to, to be able to lead others better.

And of course, we cover that, but in various forms.

But I think that also what they realize is the mindset shifts that can be very

helpful which includes something that I call overcoming high performance syndrome.

So as leaders in the sector, as you probably know, we have a lot of high

performers and they have a certain way of looking at work and productivity

that does not always serve them.

And looking at those thoughts and how do we, how are they really impacting

you and how might you do differently?

Because, some part of all this uncertainty is how do we do more with less?

And so part of that is the looking at how we're using our time, and how can we shift

more of our time toward achieving impact?

I was laughing 'cause you just said high performers.

I'm like, I felt it in my body.

I went like this.

And I was like, "Oh, no, I should go to this class."

I'm one too.

I'm guilty.

One of the big ones is " this has to be perfect", and that is one that I

continually have to remind myself, "Nope." "This does not have to be perfect"

Check the good enough box.

Exactly.

It was so great to talk to you today, Kim.

And any parting thoughts before we go?

No, I just love that we're having this conversation more and more.

I think we could have had it 10, 15 years ago, and the fact that we're

having it now brings me hope that whatever we build, we are collectively

building together is going to be better and stronger than it was.

So- Yeah … I'm glad that we're having these conversations.

What I love the most about this conversation is Kim's reminder that

values are not something we practice once we've reached the future we want.

They are how we build that future starting today.

In a world that feels increasingly uncertain, we may not be able to control

what happens around us, but we can control how we show up, the choices we make, and

the values we bring into daily leadership.

And if this episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear your biggest takeaway.

What value do you want to live more intentionally in

your leadership this week?

You'll find Kim's work and her links to the Living the Values guide, her podcast

called The Sector Debrief, and other resources we discussed in the show notes.

And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and

share it with another humanitarian or development leader who is navigating

change and uncertainty right now.

Thank you, and until next time, keep evolving.

Bye for now