Rebecca Nixon is joined by Chad Link and Rob Brower from Swyvvl, a US startup aiming to cut the middlemen out of real estate. Drawing on Rob’s experience running three brokerages, they share why the traditional process feels broken, what they’re doing differently, and how they’re navigating the challenges of pitching and growing as a lean team.

In this episode:

• Why Swyvvl believes real estate needs fewer middlemen
• Lessons from running brokerages and spotting gaps in the system
• The reality of pitching and building traction as a US startup
• Where the UK and US property markets overlap - and where they don’t

Alright, welcome to the

PropTech Growth Podcast.

2

00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:08,100

Today I am joined by Chad and Rock

from Swivel over in the States.

3

00:00:08,410 --> 00:00:10,600

And we're gonna learn a bit

about the product that they're

4

00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,040

working on and how they're.

5

00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,329

Applying their commercial growth

tactics soon to the UK market.

6

00:00:16,329 --> 00:00:21,040

So why don't you guys start off by

giving just a really quick intro to our

7

00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,940

listeners who might not know who you

are yet, and let us know on very high

8

00:00:24,940 --> 00:00:26,045

level what it is that you're up to.

9

00:00:27,045 --> 00:00:28,465

Alright, I'll start out.

10

00:00:28,515 --> 00:00:31,755

My name is Chad and I'm the

CEO and Co-founder for Swivel.

11

00:00:32,174 --> 00:00:35,894

And swivel is a new real estate

website that makes the home buyer and

12

00:00:35,894 --> 00:00:39,285

home selling process more equitable

or removing middlemen like Redfin,

13

00:00:39,285 --> 00:00:42,315

realtor and Zillow here in the

United States from the equation.

14

00:00:42,655 --> 00:00:45,984

Most home buyers and home sellers have

no idea that these platforms are making

15

00:00:45,984 --> 00:00:50,109

billions of dollars every year by selling

their information to real estate agents.

16

00:00:50,609 --> 00:00:54,899

So our goal is to be able to remove

those middlemen, give that money back

17

00:00:54,899 --> 00:00:57,689

to home buyers and home sellers so that

they can use it in order to purchase

18

00:00:57,689 --> 00:01:00,479

their homes, and then also give it

back to real estate agents so they

19

00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:01,889

can use it to build their businesses.

20

00:01:03,205 --> 00:01:03,655

Lovely.

21

00:01:03,655 --> 00:01:05,604

And Rob, what's your role at the business?

22

00:01:05,735 --> 00:01:08,995

I'm the chief technology officer

and Chad's the real estate guy.

23

00:01:08,995 --> 00:01:11,265

I'm the tech guy so he's

the prop and prop tech.

24

00:01:11,265 --> 00:01:11,925

And I'm the tech.

25

00:01:12,675 --> 00:01:13,154

Lovely.

26

00:01:13,154 --> 00:01:14,205

You've got it all covered.

27

00:01:14,205 --> 00:01:14,685

Brilliant.

28

00:01:14,965 --> 00:01:17,844

Something I often chat

about on the show is.

29

00:01:18,169 --> 00:01:23,119

How a large number of PropTech companies

have founders that are either from

30

00:01:23,119 --> 00:01:28,350

the property industry or from tech

and how important it is to have both

31

00:01:28,350 --> 00:01:33,519

of those covered because there's a

lot of unique moving parts on both

32

00:01:33,519 --> 00:01:35,049

sides that need to be considered.

33

00:01:35,079 --> 00:01:37,598

So it seems like you have

that well covered off.

34

00:01:37,939 --> 00:01:40,098

What about the practicalities

of the product?

35

00:01:40,098 --> 00:01:44,759

You've given me a high level idea of what

the outcomes are, but how does it work?

36

00:01:45,884 --> 00:01:49,124

Yeah, so like I said, most home

buyers home sellers have no idea

37

00:01:49,124 --> 00:01:51,494

that when they go on these sites,

these middlemen sites, like we

38

00:01:51,494 --> 00:01:53,714

call them, they may look for homes.

39

00:01:53,774 --> 00:01:56,984

They then want to be connected

with a real estate agent, and

40

00:01:56,984 --> 00:01:58,814

then they go off of the platform.

41

00:01:58,814 --> 00:02:01,674

And then when they buy or sell a home,

they don't know what occurs after.

42

00:02:02,214 --> 00:02:06,054

So once they buy or sell a home,

their real estate agent is actually

43

00:02:06,054 --> 00:02:10,283

paying a client referral fee of

30, 40, 50% of the total commission

44

00:02:10,614 --> 00:02:12,594

back to those middlemen platforms.

45

00:02:12,954 --> 00:02:14,603

So that's how they're

making all that money.

46

00:02:14,664 --> 00:02:17,934

The sad part about this is that home

buyers and home sellers have no idea that

47

00:02:17,934 --> 00:02:21,714

the agent they're being referred to is

paying this fee back to those middlemen.

48

00:02:21,964 --> 00:02:23,853

I've been in real estate for 18 years.

49

00:02:23,904 --> 00:02:25,554

I've owned three real estate brokerages.

50

00:02:25,554 --> 00:02:28,554

I've trained hundreds of real estate

agents personally, being involved in

51

00:02:28,554 --> 00:02:32,784

over a thousand plus contracts on my

side, and it always felt misleading.

52

00:02:32,814 --> 00:02:36,264

It always felt a little bit sleazy

that these clients are being referred

53

00:02:36,264 --> 00:02:39,264

to us, but they have no idea what's

going on that back end of things.

54

00:02:39,564 --> 00:02:42,564

Number two, when I pay that

client referral fee to Redfin

55

00:02:42,564 --> 00:02:45,744

or Realtor or Zillow, and it

can be up to $10,000 or more.

56

00:02:45,744 --> 00:02:46,795

So it's significant cash, right?

57

00:02:48,049 --> 00:02:49,820

But they have, they don't

get a share in any of it.

58

00:02:49,970 --> 00:02:53,299

It's their business that's being sold,

but they don't get any of that money.

59

00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:57,710

And then finally, those additional costs

are serving to artificially increase

60

00:02:57,710 --> 00:03:00,049

the cost of buying and selling a home.

61

00:03:00,049 --> 00:03:02,960

And of course, that's being passed

on to the home buyer or home sellers.

62

00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,569

So what Swivel does is it

allows home buyers and home

63

00:03:05,569 --> 00:03:06,920

sellers to come on our platform.

64

00:03:07,249 --> 00:03:09,020

They're able to create what's

called a client profile.

65

00:03:09,594 --> 00:03:13,254

So in that client profile, they're gonna

declare what type of home they're looking

66

00:03:13,254 --> 00:03:16,134

to purchase or what time their, what

type of home they're looking to sell.

67

00:03:16,464 --> 00:03:18,894

So for example, we're in the

Seattle area, our average home

68

00:03:18,894 --> 00:03:20,394

price just hit a million dollars.

69

00:03:20,784 --> 00:03:23,545

My guess would be it's probably

roughly what's going on in your guys'

70

00:03:23,545 --> 00:03:25,194

major cities, London, et cetera.

71

00:03:25,494 --> 00:03:28,659

So a home buyer would come on and say,

Hey, I'm looking to purchase a home in

72

00:03:28,659 --> 00:03:30,730

the Seattle area between one and $1.2

73

00:03:30,730 --> 00:03:35,515

million, three plus bedrooms, two plus

bathrooms, 2,500 or more square feet.

74

00:03:35,785 --> 00:03:37,704

Look and do that in like the next 30 days.

75

00:03:38,570 --> 00:03:41,930

Once their client profile is

complete, it then goes active in

76

00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:43,910

our five day share experience.

77

00:03:44,270 --> 00:03:46,940

And during that five day share

experience, real estate agents who are

78

00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:51,110

members of Swivel will then be able

to declare how much of the commission

79

00:03:51,110 --> 00:03:53,930

they're willing to share with the

home buyer or home seller in order to

80

00:03:53,930 --> 00:03:55,880

secure them as a client moving forward.

81

00:03:56,585 --> 00:03:59,345

At the end of the five day share

experience, the agent who has agreed

82

00:03:59,345 --> 00:04:02,045

to share the largest percentage

of the overall commission with the

83

00:04:02,045 --> 00:04:05,465

home buyer, home seller then secures

that individual as their client.

84

00:04:05,855 --> 00:04:09,395

They then will go off platform to

either buy or sell the home, and then

85

00:04:09,395 --> 00:04:13,205

at the end of that process through

the closing table, the buyer seller

86

00:04:13,205 --> 00:04:16,235

will get that agreed upon, share

commission from the real estate agent

87

00:04:16,235 --> 00:04:19,714

back so they can use it for their down

payments, their closing costs, move in

88

00:04:19,714 --> 00:04:21,000

expenses, whatever they want to use it.

89

00:04:21,310 --> 00:04:22,870

For at the end of the day.

90

00:04:22,870 --> 00:04:26,800

So we're taking those billions of dollars

that are normally go into Redfin, realtor,

91

00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,670

and Zillow, and we're giving that back

to the actual players in the real estate

92

00:04:30,670 --> 00:04:32,980

process so that they can benefit instead.

93

00:04:33,980 --> 00:04:34,370

Great.

94

00:04:34,370 --> 00:04:37,760

And what's your model for generating

revenue for your own business

95

00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,600

then, if you are not using the same

model as these middlemen are using?

96

00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:42,440

Exactly.

97

00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,960

So we, first of all, for home

buyers and home sellers, it's

98

00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:46,010

always gonna be completely free.

99

00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:47,930

We want them to be able

to use our platform.

100

00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,430

We want them to be able to benefit.

101

00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:51,170

That's the whole idea behind this.

102

00:04:51,170 --> 00:04:56,620

But as far as our revenue streams coming

in, our first revenue stream is a monthly

103

00:04:56,620 --> 00:04:58,960

membership fee for real estate agents.

104

00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,390

So real estate agents

will pay 1 99 a month.

105

00:05:01,420 --> 00:05:04,970

I wanted to make sure 'cause like I said,

I'm in the real estate industry, right?

106

00:05:04,970 --> 00:05:09,950

So we have, I don't know how it is over

there, but over here we have about an 87%

107

00:05:09,950 --> 00:05:11,400

failure rate for real estate agents with.

108

00:05:11,625 --> 00:05:15,735

Than five years, meaning that 87% of

them are gone and out of the business.

109

00:05:15,855 --> 00:05:18,765

So we wanted to make sure that we

are putting as many things in their

110

00:05:18,765 --> 00:05:22,935

favor as possible as this being a

business revenue stream for them too.

111

00:05:22,935 --> 00:05:27,765

So anyways, we, it's 1 99 a month and they

get access to unlimited share experiences,

112

00:05:27,765 --> 00:05:30,890

meaning they're able to log on, they're

able to see the areas that they cover.

113

00:05:31,895 --> 00:05:36,245

And then they're able to see how many

buyers or sellers are in those areas.

114

00:05:36,245 --> 00:05:38,675

And then they're able to declare

how much of the commission they're

115

00:05:38,675 --> 00:05:42,335

willing to share in order to secure

that individual as their client.

116

00:05:42,365 --> 00:05:45,845

And the nice thing is that outside

of that monthly fee, they don't have

117

00:05:45,845 --> 00:05:49,534

to pay anything more until they're

successfully closed, meaning they

118

00:05:49,534 --> 00:05:52,625

already have that money in their

bank account in order to pay that

119

00:05:52,745 --> 00:05:54,230

commission share with their client.

120

00:05:55,235 --> 00:05:55,565

Nice.

121

00:05:55,565 --> 00:05:57,095

So it's a flat fee.

122

00:05:57,305 --> 00:06:00,995

Simple, affordable, monthly, and

if for whatever reason it doesn't

123

00:06:00,995 --> 00:06:02,465

work out, they can just cancel it.

124

00:06:02,465 --> 00:06:06,935

So they've got this ability to engage

with the platform, see if it works for

125

00:06:06,935 --> 00:06:11,795

them, and not feel like they're being

taken advantage of by a bigger player.

126

00:06:11,795 --> 00:06:13,655

That may take a large percentage.

127

00:06:14,365 --> 00:06:15,355

Yeah, 100%.

128

00:06:15,355 --> 00:06:18,655

'cause a lot of these platforms that we

work with, these middlemen, they will

129

00:06:18,655 --> 00:06:20,875

lock agents into year long contracts.

130

00:06:21,145 --> 00:06:24,685

So if there really happen is I'm gonna

have an agent in my office who's upset,

131

00:06:24,985 --> 00:06:29,845

who's been paying this fee, and this

monthly fee that's really high, it can

132

00:06:29,845 --> 00:06:33,784

be, 72, a hundred thousand dollars a

year that they may be paying for this.

133

00:06:34,424 --> 00:06:36,704

And they don't have the

money to do that anymore.

134

00:06:36,704 --> 00:06:39,224

So they're trying to figure out how to

get out of that year long contract so it

135

00:06:39,224 --> 00:06:42,015

doesn't hit their credit so they're not

being coming after legally, et cetera.

136

00:06:42,015 --> 00:06:44,474

So like I said, we wanted to

make sure it was affordable.

137

00:06:44,683 --> 00:06:47,174

We wanted to make sure that agents

weren't locked into a long-term

138

00:06:47,174 --> 00:06:50,714

contract, so that if for some reason

the process wasn't working for them,

139

00:06:50,895 --> 00:06:52,124

then they could be able to leave.

140

00:06:52,829 --> 00:06:53,159

Great.

141

00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:54,719

That's really interesting.

142

00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:59,010

So what have you learned on this

journey so far of establishing your

143

00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:04,969

product and trying to grow what's

essentially a SaaS business in a

144

00:07:04,969 --> 00:07:07,609

world of commission and handshakes?

145

00:07:09,034 --> 00:07:12,885

Yeah the biggest thing with us

is it's really the education.

146

00:07:13,045 --> 00:07:17,035

Most people will buy homes maybe one

to three times in their lifetime.

147

00:07:17,335 --> 00:07:20,635

So this isn't a process that they're very

comfortable with or they know much about.

148

00:07:20,825 --> 00:07:25,175

I can line up a hundred buyers or a

hundred sellers and say, Hey, do you know

149

00:07:25,175 --> 00:07:29,345

that when you go to Redfin, realtor Zillow

and you ask to be, contacted by a real

150

00:07:29,345 --> 00:07:33,105

estate agent, this is what happens behind

the scenes and their minds are blowing.

151

00:07:33,110 --> 00:07:37,070

They have no idea that this money

is going back to the middlemen,

152

00:07:37,070 --> 00:07:38,390

that they're not getting any of it.

153

00:07:38,390 --> 00:07:43,720

So really our biggest challenge is

just educating the real estate the real

154

00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,350

estate public about how things work

in our industry, and be able to say

155

00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:51,220

this, Hey, you can go to a middleman,

like truly a Redfin realtor, Zillow,

156

00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:54,580

find a home, look for properties,

get connected with a real estate

157

00:07:54,580 --> 00:07:56,260

agent to help you buy or sell a home.

158

00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:58,300

And at the end of the

day, you get nothing back.

159

00:07:58,845 --> 00:08:02,025

Or you can go to swivel and you

can do those exact same things.

160

00:08:02,025 --> 00:08:04,815

Find your dream home, get

exposure for your listing.

161

00:08:04,815 --> 00:08:08,565

Find an agent to help you with

that process, and you can get up to

162

00:08:08,565 --> 00:08:10,665

$10,000 or more back when you close.

163

00:08:10,875 --> 00:08:12,015

Which one are you gonna do?

164

00:08:12,195 --> 00:08:16,895

So our message is very simple, getting

that out there to, almost 400 million

165

00:08:16,895 --> 00:08:21,005

people, of course, is a challenge and

a process that that we have tackled.

166

00:08:21,725 --> 00:08:22,025

Yeah.

167

00:08:22,145 --> 00:08:22,265

Great.

168

00:08:23,380 --> 00:08:26,740

I'd say there, there's a learning

curve on the tech side of things too.

169

00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:29,580

And I think the biggest thing that,

that we've learned in this process is

170

00:08:29,790 --> 00:08:31,110

that we don't know what we don't know.

171

00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:36,838

And so as you set off to build a game

changing platform you have certain

172

00:08:36,838 --> 00:08:39,659

technologies in mind and you have

certain development stack in mind.

173

00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,989

And then you find out through the process,

oh, we've gotta be able to integrate this

174

00:08:43,989 --> 00:08:48,489

type of data feed so that we can have the

MLS, houses all shown on our site so that

175

00:08:48,790 --> 00:08:53,000

the idea would be, why would somebody want

to go do a home search on a competitor

176

00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,890

site and then come to finish the process?

177

00:08:54,890 --> 00:08:56,300

No, we need to have a home search on ours.

178

00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,020

So integrating that data stack meant we

had to change some things on our backend,

179

00:09:00,350 --> 00:09:03,780

and then you find out that the database

that you're using isn't scalable quick

180

00:09:03,785 --> 00:09:05,310

enough, so then you've gotta switch.

181

00:09:05,935 --> 00:09:09,609

Integrate different types of technologies

and it, it is been a lot of fun figuring

182

00:09:09,609 --> 00:09:10,959

out one challenge after the other.

183

00:09:10,959 --> 00:09:13,869

I feel like a firefighter, I'm just

putting out one fire just in time for

184

00:09:13,869 --> 00:09:16,139

the next one to come up and then we

have to learn how to put that one out.

185

00:09:17,104 --> 00:09:19,714

I'd say Welcome to the world

of PropTech, but it seems that

186

00:09:19,714 --> 00:09:20,944

you're already here with us.

187

00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:21,899

Yes.

188

00:09:21,969 --> 00:09:22,259

Yeah.

189

00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:23,619

The good and the bad.

190

00:09:24,634 --> 00:09:25,054

Yeah.

191

00:09:25,054 --> 00:09:25,384

Yeah.

192

00:09:25,504 --> 00:09:28,264

That's what I love talking about on

the show though, I think it's really

193

00:09:28,264 --> 00:09:31,114

important to open up about our challenges.

194

00:09:31,610 --> 00:09:32,990

We all have them, right?

195

00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:36,619

And they're not unique to us

particularly in this space.

196

00:09:36,899 --> 00:09:41,199

And I feel like sharing knowledge and

experiences across those challenges helps

197

00:09:41,199 --> 00:09:45,019

everybody to overcome them and at the very

least, feel like they're not so alone.

198

00:09:45,439 --> 00:09:45,749

Yeah.

199

00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:52,099

As you guys are based in the United

States, I'd be very interested to

200

00:09:52,099 --> 00:09:56,699

hear why it is that you are interested

in reaching out to the UK market.

201

00:09:56,699 --> 00:10:00,449

I know previously we had a little bit of

a chat about the fact that there's a cost

202

00:10:00,449 --> 00:10:03,719

of living crisis and we wanna see people.

203

00:10:04,269 --> 00:10:08,889

With more cash in hand, more empowered

to, to do things like have a deposit

204

00:10:08,889 --> 00:10:10,959

so that they can purchase the house.

205

00:10:11,259 --> 00:10:14,279

Whereas a lot of the time the

cashflow issues prevent real

206

00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:15,599

estate from moving around.

207

00:10:16,179 --> 00:10:20,239

But even just on a really practical

level what was it that sort of

208

00:10:20,239 --> 00:10:23,419

sparked your interest in doing

something that's so different to the

209

00:10:23,419 --> 00:10:24,649

models that are already out there?

210

00:10:25,879 --> 00:10:30,619

Like you touched on, I think

the challenge of housing is.

211

00:10:31,144 --> 00:10:32,224

Present worldwide.

212

00:10:32,359 --> 00:10:35,900

And that challenge of it, it really

is the cash for entry, right?

213

00:10:36,109 --> 00:10:41,060

So for example, even like I went on a

trip to Jamaica, during COVID on their

214

00:10:41,060 --> 00:10:42,719

end of things with where we're at.

215

00:10:42,719 --> 00:10:45,680

And the fact is there really

is no financing for housing.

216

00:10:46,290 --> 00:10:50,650

They don't have that process in place for

us like we do here in the United States.

217

00:10:50,650 --> 00:10:54,790

So every country has a different

way as far as how homes are built,

218

00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,820

how homes are financed during

the building process, et cetera.

219

00:10:58,070 --> 00:11:01,790

However that fundamental need to have

a house to be able to own your own

220

00:11:01,790 --> 00:11:03,410

place, to have your shot at doing that.

221

00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,180

My my dad was in the military,

so most military members, you're

222

00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:10,310

going from base to base, and

you don't own your own property.

223

00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,510

I remember when my mom, after 20 years,

we gotta own our first house basically.

224

00:11:15,585 --> 00:11:20,595

And the, that ability and that

success that, that drove to be able

225

00:11:20,595 --> 00:11:22,215

to say, okay, now we're gonna be here.

226

00:11:22,425 --> 00:11:24,255

This is my place to make my own.

227

00:11:24,525 --> 00:11:25,725

I can get good furniture.

228

00:11:25,725 --> 00:11:27,885

That's not gonna get broken

by moving constantly.

229

00:11:27,885 --> 00:11:32,295

And all these things, these aspects that

come to it is really what drives me.

230

00:11:32,405 --> 00:11:36,815

The, in the United States here and in

many areas of the country or of the world.

231

00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,045

The average salary no longer

pays for the average house.

232

00:11:40,775 --> 00:11:44,195

We have now reached that tipping

point in the last year or so.

233

00:11:44,545 --> 00:11:48,985

So that means there really is a group

of haves and have nots, not even

234

00:11:48,985 --> 00:11:53,500

just based upon, the income not based

upon different, racial disparities.

235

00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:54,580

Whatever you want to throw out there.

236

00:11:54,580 --> 00:11:56,075

It's really based upon whether

you own a house or not.

237

00:11:56,670 --> 00:11:59,160

And that's really going to make

a difference as far as your

238

00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,890

future, what you're able to

do for your family, et cetera.

239

00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:05,310

So there is a passion behind

just not making just money.

240

00:12:05,550 --> 00:12:09,000

Because when this first started, when

we talked about that growth when I

241

00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,030

started, this has been in my mind

for the last 10, 15 years, and then

242

00:12:12,030 --> 00:12:16,620

COVID hit and I said, Hey, we're just

gonna throw up a small little website.

243

00:12:17,115 --> 00:12:22,275

And we're gonna throw a little bit of

money at Google and we're just gonna see

244

00:12:22,275 --> 00:12:24,135

wherever the hell it goes with all of it.

245

00:12:24,735 --> 00:12:29,265

And you talk about that journey and we

were about a year and a half into that

246

00:12:29,265 --> 00:12:31,005

journey and the product that we had.

247

00:12:31,740 --> 00:12:35,730

We said, Hey, this is not a great

representation of what we want to do.

248

00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:37,170

We want to be able to do more.

249

00:12:37,530 --> 00:12:40,380

We want to be able to provide

this opportunity to home

250

00:12:40,380 --> 00:12:41,370

buyers and home sellers.

251

00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,090

But in order to do that, to truly

take this shot and get the message

252

00:12:45,090 --> 00:12:49,560

out there, we our product has to be

representative of what our vision is.

253

00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,300

So we started all over again.

254

00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:53,310

We had to sit there and say,

Hey, were we gonna quit?

255

00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:54,030

Call it good.

256

00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:58,840

The money that was invested

before is just lost and walk away.

257

00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,140

Or we, we had this conversation for

a couple months, we did, and we're

258

00:13:02,140 --> 00:13:05,985

like, okay, but if Rob's nodding

like, yep, I rebuilt everything.

259

00:13:06,815 --> 00:13:07,665

Yeah, exactly.

260

00:13:07,885 --> 00:13:10,510

So we had to sit there and look

at each other and say, Hey, are

261

00:13:10,510 --> 00:13:12,910

we going to start this process?

262

00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:14,185

And if we're gonna do it,

we have to go all out.

263

00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:18,020

We have to, like Rob said, we have to

have a, a full property search, and

264

00:13:18,020 --> 00:13:22,550

that's a massive uptaking in order to

be able to do here in the United States

265

00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:27,230

so that there's over 600 plus local

MLSs where that information comes from.

266

00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:28,960

So that's a massive challenge.

267

00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,890

Just the data feed alone on that

can be 30 to $50,000 a month.

268

00:13:33,225 --> 00:13:34,665

So that there's a lot there.

269

00:13:34,665 --> 00:13:35,955

So we had to make that decision.

270

00:13:35,955 --> 00:13:39,465

We had to say, Hey, are we going to

move forward with this vision and do

271

00:13:39,465 --> 00:13:44,235

it properly so that we can be able to

benefit home buyers and home sellers

272

00:13:44,235 --> 00:13:47,505

to be able to get them this money that

we truly believe that they deserve?

273

00:13:47,745 --> 00:13:49,965

So that, that was our

deciding moment for us.

274

00:13:50,770 --> 00:13:55,270

Okay, so let's have a quick

chat about other businesses

275

00:13:55,270 --> 00:13:56,830

that might be in your position.

276

00:13:56,860 --> 00:14:00,430

You're based in the States, much

bigger market than in the uk,

277

00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:04,420

but the UK still has a great

market that you're interested in.

278

00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,970

And you have a product that you

think has a real opportunity here.

279

00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,380

What are your thoughts around what

your biggest challenges are going

280

00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:13,480

to be in penetrating the UK market?

281

00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,380

One of the biggest challenges for me

on the real estate agent in this side,

282

00:14:18,380 --> 00:14:22,280

'cause I've owned brokerages I currently

own a real estate brokerage and I've

283

00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:23,870

been doing this for a couple decades.

284

00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:26,645

There, there's always nuances

right to every market.

285

00:14:27,105 --> 00:14:30,285

Even within our markets, like

if I'm going down to California,

286

00:14:30,555 --> 00:14:31,755

it's a different market, right?

287

00:14:31,755 --> 00:14:34,545

Than it is in the Seattle

area versus the Midwest.

288

00:14:34,545 --> 00:14:38,475

For us, there's always gonna be

these nuances of how real estate

289

00:14:38,475 --> 00:14:41,845

agents have done business for years

and that's a thing too, right?

290

00:14:41,845 --> 00:14:45,190

We are human beings and we like to get

entrenched in the way that we do things.

291

00:14:46,585 --> 00:14:46,765

Yes.

292

00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,440

So you are familiar with the conveyancing

issues in the uk then, by the sum of Yeah.

293

00:14:51,535 --> 00:14:54,145

So there's gonna, there's gonna be a

whole new set of challenges, right?

294

00:14:54,145 --> 00:14:54,625

For us Yes.

295

00:14:54,715 --> 00:15:00,665

With all of that not only just the

adopting of our platform by the consumers.

296

00:15:00,995 --> 00:15:01,565

Okay.

297

00:15:01,565 --> 00:15:05,255

In, in, in England, in the

uk with all of it, but also.

298

00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:10,380

Working through your guys' structure that

you guys currently have in order to adapt.

299

00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:13,470

So there's going to be, there's

going to be some challenges with all

300

00:15:13,470 --> 00:15:16,470

that, but there are challengers we're

willing to take on, but there are

301

00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:19,830

also challenges that we're gonna make

sure that we partner with, hopefully

302

00:15:19,830 --> 00:15:21,450

the appropriate people over there.

303

00:15:21,580 --> 00:15:23,055

We're not gonna come

over there and say, Hey.

304

00:15:23,505 --> 00:15:24,675

Listen, we know everything.

305

00:15:24,675 --> 00:15:28,840

Do it our way, and we have it all

figured out and we're, you're American.

306

00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:29,600

That's what you do.

307

00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:30,845

I'm being cheeky.

308

00:15:31,895 --> 00:15:32,435

Yeah of course.

309

00:15:32,435 --> 00:15:33,695

That's exactly what we do.

310

00:15:33,905 --> 00:15:38,535

However I had a great learning lesson

from when I was started my first real

311

00:15:38,535 --> 00:15:43,925

estate brokerage and my mentor, he

said, Hey, one of the things you have

312

00:15:43,925 --> 00:15:48,065

to learn is the things that you don't do

well and find people who do them well.

313

00:15:48,865 --> 00:15:52,775

And I'm under no illusions

that I am a phenomenal, leader.

314

00:15:52,775 --> 00:15:56,705

I'm under no illusions that I know

everything that's going on, and I

315

00:15:56,705 --> 00:16:00,425

really do want to partner with people

who know more than me in the areas

316

00:16:00,425 --> 00:16:05,585

that I don't know, because that not

only accelerates our growth, but also

317

00:16:05,585 --> 00:16:07,625

brings our message to more people.

318

00:16:07,625 --> 00:16:10,935

So I, I think it's one of the most

valuable lessons I've learned is.

319

00:16:10,935 --> 00:16:15,735

To try to check the arrogance and

ego at the door and be open-minded

320

00:16:15,735 --> 00:16:19,185

enough to bring on people who are

better than you at certain things.

321

00:16:19,895 --> 00:16:20,645

I love that.

322

00:16:20,645 --> 00:16:21,935

That's very wise.

323

00:16:21,995 --> 00:16:24,155

Rob, what about on the product side?

324

00:16:24,965 --> 00:16:28,745

Yeah, one nice thing about

technology is, math is a standardized

325

00:16:28,745 --> 00:16:30,095

language across the board.

326

00:16:30,095 --> 00:16:33,305

And if we say to one of your developers

in the uk, Hey, you've gotta use this

327

00:16:33,305 --> 00:16:36,455

API to pull in this data, they're

gonna know how to connect that.

328

00:16:36,845 --> 00:16:40,655

The big challenge for us is our

entire platform is built around.

329

00:16:41,070 --> 00:16:44,700

All of our codes in the US as far

as compliance issues go, right?

330

00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:48,990

And so how we store user data

and how we transport that, how we

331

00:16:48,990 --> 00:16:52,270

encrypt it all of that stuff is

based on our federal regulations.

332

00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,220

And so one of the challenges for me is

that as we look to expand into either

333

00:16:56,220 --> 00:17:01,130

the UK market or to Australia, wherever

it might be even to the Asian markets,

334

00:17:01,370 --> 00:17:03,530

is what are their compliance laws like?

335

00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:04,200

And.

336

00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:07,880

Would we have to fundamentally

change the platform completely?

337

00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,040

And so we're asking questions like, are we

gonna have one platform with subdomains?

338

00:17:13,069 --> 00:17:18,980

So you would go to UK Swivel, or

Swivel uk and it's the same platform.

339

00:17:19,260 --> 00:17:22,020

Language is a little bit different,

but the functionality is identical.

340

00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:25,319

Or do we have to basically rebuild

this thing for each one of these

341

00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:26,760

markets that we want to go into?

342

00:17:27,180 --> 00:17:28,950

'cause those present

different challenges as well.

343

00:17:29,775 --> 00:17:33,965

Yeah, the localization aspect

is definitely a big one.

344

00:17:34,015 --> 00:17:37,645

In compliance as well as just

in user experience, right?

345

00:17:37,645 --> 00:17:41,125

People are gonna expect different

things, different wording and language

346

00:17:41,125 --> 00:17:43,135

and functionality in different places.

347

00:17:43,675 --> 00:17:46,825

I found it really interesting that you

were talking about the property search

348

00:17:46,825 --> 00:17:49,765

functionality, and that's something that.

349

00:17:49,985 --> 00:17:54,755

I would say a huge number of people

in the PropTech space in the UK at

350

00:17:54,755 --> 00:17:57,245

least tend to keep at arm's length.

351

00:17:57,595 --> 00:17:59,695

Not that there aren't people

who specialize in it, there

352

00:17:59,695 --> 00:18:01,195

aren't then they're amazing.

353

00:18:01,375 --> 00:18:03,595

But if you don't do it, you don't do it.

354

00:18:03,805 --> 00:18:04,255

Yeah.

355

00:18:04,255 --> 00:18:11,725

The level of detail and the the way in

which that data is stored has historically

356

00:18:11,725 --> 00:18:16,435

been, how should we say this paper?

357

00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:19,010

Oh fine.

358

00:18:19,775 --> 00:18:20,065

Yeah.

359

00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:20,690

Yeah.

360

00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:23,780

There's some incredible PropTech

startups in the UK that are

361

00:18:23,780 --> 00:18:26,750

addressing that issue and they're

doing amazing work and I'm lucky

362

00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:28,430

enough to work with a couple of them.

363

00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:29,225

But it's not.

364

00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:35,090

An easy thing to overcome, I think even

when it comes to your user experience.

365

00:18:35,530 --> 00:18:39,910

People in the states are gonna be

searching for a property based perhaps

366

00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:42,100

on something like how many square feet.

367

00:18:43,010 --> 00:18:45,590

People in the UK aren't gonna

be searching based on that.

368

00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:47,870

They're gonna be searching

based on number of bedroom.

369

00:18:47,965 --> 00:18:53,120

It's just a different approach to how

the data is structured and what it means

370

00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,620

for the person on the other end of it.

371

00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:58,280

And I think up until now,

the people who've led in that

372

00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,690

area have been the portals.

373

00:19:00,830 --> 00:19:02,420

So those, the big guys that.

374

00:19:02,655 --> 00:19:05,925

Sort of the equivalent of what

you are taking on in the us.

375

00:19:05,925 --> 00:19:09,975

So over here we've got zoo plan

and Right Move and on the market.

376

00:19:10,095 --> 00:19:14,625

And these portals are where estate

agents run all of their listings

377

00:19:15,045 --> 00:19:17,325

and much like a booking.com.

378

00:19:17,565 --> 00:19:21,285

They have something of a

monopoly on search traffic.

379

00:19:21,710 --> 00:19:25,635

For people who are looking to buy or

sell properties, I imagine you've come up

380

00:19:25,635 --> 00:19:28,605

against similar issues over in the States.

381

00:19:28,855 --> 00:19:30,475

How are you looking to address that?

382

00:19:30,505 --> 00:19:34,165

'cause it feels like a bit of

a David and Goliath situation.

383

00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,060

It definitely is, and the

problem is it's getting worse.

384

00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,220

The, these companies are consolidating.

385

00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:44,990

So for example, Redfin, even though

they've never made a dollar of actual

386

00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:49,910

profit, they just got bought out by what's

called Rocket Homes Rocket Mortgage,

387

00:19:49,910 --> 00:19:54,125

which is one of the big mortgage companies

here in the United States for $1.7

388

00:19:54,125 --> 00:19:54,980

billion.

389

00:19:55,250 --> 00:19:55,520

Okay.

390

00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,470

That feels like a conflict of interest.

391

00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:58,130

Oh, completely.

392

00:19:58,130 --> 00:19:59,630

And then I'll keep going with all of it.

393

00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:00,275

Mr.

394

00:20:00,275 --> 00:20:03,950

Cooper, who is another huge

mortgage company, they also

395

00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:05,360

just got bought out by Rocket.

396

00:20:06,075 --> 00:20:10,185

So we're often just in the last couple

months, has bought one of the big real

397

00:20:10,185 --> 00:20:14,475

estate platforms and they've also just

bought one of the big mortgage companies.

398

00:20:14,535 --> 00:20:16,065

And then I'll keep going with all this.

399

00:20:16,245 --> 00:20:19,785

So Keller Williams, one of the big real

estate brokerages just got bought out.

400

00:20:19,875 --> 00:20:20,295

Okay.

401

00:20:20,695 --> 00:20:24,145

Anywhere Real estate, which is a

conglomerate of about 10 different

402

00:20:24,145 --> 00:20:27,325

real estate brands like Century

21, et cetera, is all one company.

403

00:20:27,665 --> 00:20:31,065

At one point, and this was a little

while ago, but Zillow bought out Trulia.

404

00:20:31,325 --> 00:20:32,705

They used to be separate companies.

405

00:20:32,705 --> 00:20:34,755

When I started in the

business they bought 'em out.

406

00:20:34,755 --> 00:20:39,105

So we have this consolidation that's

going on where it's becoming a bigger

407

00:20:39,105 --> 00:20:42,345

challenge because you're getting

about five to 10 different companies

408

00:20:42,615 --> 00:20:46,095

that, regardless of all the different

names that are out there, are really

409

00:20:46,095 --> 00:20:49,290

controlling the flow of the information

that's out there and the money.

410

00:20:50,005 --> 00:20:50,575

And the money.

411

00:20:50,575 --> 00:20:51,085

Exactly.

412

00:20:51,085 --> 00:20:51,865

100%.

413

00:20:51,945 --> 00:20:57,735

So it's getting to be it's really getting

to be a worse problem as far as monopoly

414

00:20:57,735 --> 00:21:00,645

wise with all this, because they've

determined that in order to maintain

415

00:21:00,645 --> 00:21:05,085

their market share and grow their market

share, they need to assimilate their

416

00:21:05,085 --> 00:21:07,215

competitors with all of this on this side.

417

00:21:07,375 --> 00:21:11,215

Like I said, rocket's now gonna get

access to tons more real estate agents,

418

00:21:11,425 --> 00:21:14,605

tons more home buyers and home sellers

that use Redfin as their platform.

419

00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:17,140

Which then of course will

turn into more money for them.

420

00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:18,940

All of these things, with all of it.

421

00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:19,870

So I agree with you.

422

00:21:19,870 --> 00:21:23,530

It definitely is a David versus

Goliath, and who controls that

423

00:21:23,530 --> 00:21:25,060

information is going to win.

424

00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,705

Now, we've been fortunate on our end

as far as information wise with a home.

425

00:21:29,395 --> 00:21:33,775

Information comes from, there's individual

MLSs throughout the United States.

426

00:21:33,775 --> 00:21:38,455

So for example, in Washington state where

Seattle's located, there's one MLS that's

427

00:21:38,455 --> 00:21:41,905

assimilated all the other MLSs that

were here for 20 years and it's called

428

00:21:41,905 --> 00:21:43,585

the Northwest Multiple Listing Service.

429

00:21:43,915 --> 00:21:46,015

So they cover about 90% of our state.

430

00:21:46,345 --> 00:21:48,955

Now we're able to access that information.

431

00:21:49,315 --> 00:21:52,285

So even like Redfin Truly and

Zillow, they have to get their

432

00:21:52,285 --> 00:21:53,815

information from the MLSs.

433

00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:54,410

Okay.

434

00:21:54,460 --> 00:21:55,240

Yeah, exactly.

435

00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,020

So their property information agents

aren't directly entering it into

436

00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:01,300

Redfin or truly, or Zillow or Swivel.

437

00:22:01,630 --> 00:22:03,880

It's being pulled from the local MLSs.

438

00:22:03,940 --> 00:22:08,290

So we are able to gather that

information without having to worry about

439

00:22:08,290 --> 00:22:10,000

competing with Redfin and truly Zillow.

440

00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,220

'cause we don't have to get

their information from them.

441

00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:15,000

But like I said, that consolidation,

we're seeing it happen.

442

00:22:15,315 --> 00:22:18,975

And we're seeing it really happen

worldwide where there is literally,

443

00:22:18,975 --> 00:22:22,455

and when I say this, really there's

five or 10 companies that literally

444

00:22:22,455 --> 00:22:26,325

in the United States control probably

90 to 95% of all their real estate

445

00:22:26,325 --> 00:22:30,105

transactions from the mortgage side and

also from the real estate agent side.

446

00:22:30,195 --> 00:22:33,855

So you're right, it's a challenge

that we're going after to break.

447

00:22:34,245 --> 00:22:38,595

'cause we want to be able to give people

different options and opportunities in

448

00:22:38,595 --> 00:22:40,065

order to get into the housing market.

449

00:22:40,875 --> 00:22:41,415

Absolutely.

450

00:22:41,745 --> 00:22:44,195

I would say on the data side too,

Rebecca, you mentioned that it's a

451

00:22:44,195 --> 00:22:47,855

David and Goliath type story, and what

we found is strategic partnerships

452

00:22:47,855 --> 00:22:51,635

with other Davids to take down the

Goliath together is what has helped us.

453

00:22:51,825 --> 00:22:53,595

When it comes to the MLS data.

454

00:22:53,865 --> 00:22:58,725

We originally sourced that data from

a large conglomerate that resells

455

00:22:58,725 --> 00:23:02,665

the data and allows us to syndicate

it, but it required us to have.

456

00:23:03,215 --> 00:23:06,635

Massive server power just to store

and push all that information.

457

00:23:06,875 --> 00:23:09,185

'cause we weren't allowed to pull

it locally because they were worried

458

00:23:09,185 --> 00:23:10,505

about their bandwidth, obviously.

459

00:23:10,555 --> 00:23:14,545

And so rather than increase their

bandwidth to help us out, they charge

460

00:23:14,545 --> 00:23:18,715

us an exorbitant amount of money so that

we could pull their data twice a day.

461

00:23:18,745 --> 00:23:20,425

And we had to stay on top

of all those listings.

462

00:23:20,425 --> 00:23:21,655

And that was a huge undertaking.

463

00:23:21,655 --> 00:23:24,655

We had to bring on an additional staff

person just to manage that server.

464

00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:27,980

And lucky for us, our CEO had

the foresight to write into

465

00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:29,450

that contract in 90 day out.

466

00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,990

And we were going to these conventions

and stuff, these real estate

467

00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:35,000

shows, and we met another David.

468

00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,480

And they said to us, Hey, we should be

able to partner with you guys and get you

469

00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,720

that data a lot faster and a lot cheaper.

470

00:23:41,810 --> 00:23:46,070

And so basically we were on a clock,

can we get this switched over into

471

00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:48,860

new architecture and pull this new

data in and have it integrated?

472

00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:50,150

'cause the website was already running.

473

00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:54,280

Without slowing down the website and

having to take down the search feature.

474

00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:55,540

And we were able to do that.

475

00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,160

And so as we look to expand into

global markets one of the things that

476

00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,620

I've learned along the way is when it

comes to localization, nobody's gonna

477

00:24:02,620 --> 00:24:06,520

know your local market and technology

needs then a local tech person.

478

00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:11,665

So our goal would be to partner with

another David in your area that knows.

479

00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:16,090

How to integrate the data, where to get

the data has relationships in those areas.

480

00:24:16,090 --> 00:24:19,390

And that also then creates jobs

globally as we expand into different

481

00:24:19,390 --> 00:24:21,940

markets, rather than just have

everything based here in the us.

482

00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:23,400

Lovely.

483

00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:25,140

That's fantastic.

484

00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:28,380

So I think the key things that

I'm taking away from this chat

485

00:24:29,670 --> 00:24:31,510

are be humble and teachable.

486

00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:33,010

Don't get too big of a head.

487

00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:35,710

Leave your ego at the door

and be willing to learn.

488

00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:38,465

If you wanna take on Goliath.

489

00:24:39,370 --> 00:24:45,350

Find other Davids and retain a sense

of lightness and a sense of humor about

490

00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:48,380

the fact that sometimes everything

is just gonna turn on its head.

491

00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:50,000

You're gonna have to start all over again.

492

00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:50,900

Yeah.

493

00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:51,770

And that's okay.

494

00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:56,435

Have a laugh about it and crack on it

is and I'll say this, you know what

495

00:24:56,435 --> 00:24:59,975

Rob said about finding other David's, I

think this is the first time he's put it

496

00:24:59,975 --> 00:25:01,835

that way, but he's so completely right.

497

00:25:01,835 --> 00:25:03,450

There are a ton of David's out.

498

00:25:03,740 --> 00:25:07,015

There are trying to break

in and change things.

499

00:25:07,285 --> 00:25:09,910

And a lot of 'em, to be

honest with you, are crap.

500

00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,280

The it's a fly by night.

501

00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,740

It's a an idea and that's all it is.

502

00:25:13,740 --> 00:25:16,410

The time and effort and

investment hasn't went into it.

503

00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:19,230

However, there are a few out

there that are really well.

504

00:25:19,335 --> 00:25:23,355

Thought out and they very well

ha have not gained traction up

505

00:25:23,355 --> 00:25:25,815

until that point, simply 'cause

they don't have the resources yet.

506

00:25:25,895 --> 00:25:28,985

They haven't been able to get that

fortunate break in order to be able

507

00:25:28,985 --> 00:25:30,755

to get the finances to move forward.

508

00:25:31,025 --> 00:25:33,065

But those companies are being well ran.

509

00:25:33,095 --> 00:25:34,805

They're being leanly ran.

510

00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,680

By, a small group of people, but they

have a very good idea and we were

511

00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,400

able to partner with one of those,

which solved our problem for the data.

512

00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,520

And they were very, happy to partner

with us because it allowed them to be

513

00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,090

able to prove concept, allowed them

to be able to partner with someone on

514

00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:53,940

the retail side versus the data side.

515

00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:55,320

Yeah, Rob's very corrected.

516

00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,980

Those Davids are out there, but you

just have to find the right ones

517

00:25:58,980 --> 00:26:00,390

to partner with to help you out.

518

00:26:01,335 --> 00:26:03,495

Did you guys used to watch Transformers?

519

00:26:03,915 --> 00:26:04,965

You know how each

520

00:26:07,095 --> 00:26:07,185

Yes.

521

00:26:07,185 --> 00:26:09,395

Or like power ranges

actually is a better analogy.

522

00:26:09,545 --> 00:26:10,205

The power range.

523

00:26:10,745 --> 00:26:11,695

Voltron, all of them.

524

00:26:11,695 --> 00:26:14,495

They had their individual vehicle

and there'd be a great big monster

525

00:26:14,495 --> 00:26:17,495

or something at the end of the

episode, and all the individual

526

00:26:17,495 --> 00:26:18,115

things would be going pew.

527

00:26:18,115 --> 00:26:19,255

And they couldn't take it down.

528

00:26:19,255 --> 00:26:24,145

But then they would all come

together and join into one great big

529

00:26:24,325 --> 00:26:26,755

robot that would defeat the evil.

530

00:26:27,175 --> 00:26:28,255

Lizard eating the city.

531

00:26:28,255 --> 00:26:34,080

And I feel like that's the perfect

analogy for what you guys No fun

532

00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,220

if we're wan, can I be the Black Lion?

533

00:26:38,325 --> 00:26:38,615

Yeah.

534

00:26:38,755 --> 00:26:39,695

That's very cool.

535

00:26:40,085 --> 00:26:42,615

I'll let you two do whatever

you need to with this analogy.

536

00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:45,230

All the prescribed nerds here.

537

00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:46,110

Yeah.

538

00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:46,610

Yeah.

539

00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:47,360

Oh, brilliant.

540

00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,000

Don't forget Thunderbirds in

the us Thunderbirds was big too.

541

00:26:50,415 --> 00:26:51,135

Oh yeah.

542

00:26:51,135 --> 00:26:51,375

Yeah.

543

00:26:51,375 --> 00:26:52,065

We love that bit.

544

00:26:52,825 --> 00:26:53,605

Very popular.

545

00:26:53,995 --> 00:26:54,715

Oh, brilliant.

546

00:26:54,765 --> 00:26:57,945

Is there anything else that you guys

wanted to chat about or cover off today

547

00:26:57,945 --> 00:26:59,910

before we say goodbye or see you later?

548

00:27:01,065 --> 00:27:01,845

I think we're good.

549

00:27:01,845 --> 00:27:04,685

We, we just appreciate the opportunity

to be able to get our company out there

550

00:27:04,685 --> 00:27:06,035

and get the information out there.

551

00:27:06,035 --> 00:27:10,025

We appreciate the ability to be able

to go into other markets as we expand.

552

00:27:10,025 --> 00:27:12,605

It's a very important

aspect of our overall.

553

00:27:12,605 --> 00:27:16,355

Like I told you, our overall journey

of just not benefiting, home buyers

554

00:27:16,355 --> 00:27:19,025

and home sellers here, but benefiting

home buyers and home sellers throughout

555

00:27:19,025 --> 00:27:20,555

the world as much as possible.

556

00:27:20,925 --> 00:27:24,405

Put as many things in their favor

to what's, is a very expensive

557

00:27:24,405 --> 00:27:26,055

process with all of this.

558

00:27:26,055 --> 00:27:28,335

So we appreciate you, we

appreciate the opportunity to

559

00:27:28,335 --> 00:27:29,715

be able to spread our message.

560

00:27:29,955 --> 00:27:32,475

And for those of you that are out

there, I want to take a look at

561

00:27:32,475 --> 00:27:34,125

our website, it's at swivel.com

562

00:27:34,125 --> 00:27:37,245

and that's SWVV l.com

563

00:27:37,545 --> 00:27:38,895

on the US side of things.

564

00:27:38,895 --> 00:27:42,855

And look for us to be expanding to your

market, hopefully in the near future.

565

00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:44,150

Lovely.

566

00:27:44,150 --> 00:27:46,190

Thank you so much for

being on the show, guys.

567

00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:47,390

Really appreciate your time.

568

00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:48,200

It's been a pleasure.

569

00:27:48,445 --> 00:27:48,905

Oh, thank you.

570

00:27:48,905 --> 00:27:49,425

You've been great.

571

00:27:49,685 --> 00:27:50,345

Thanks a lot.

572

00:27:50,715 --> 00:27:51,830

Thank you very much.

573

00:27:51,830 --> 00:27:52,340

Bye now.

574

00:27:52,455 --> 00:27:52,945

Bye-bye.