Shownotes
In this episode we discuss: The BizzOps Anti-Playbook. We are joined by Vessela Clewley, Strategy & Biz Ops Executive.
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We chat about the following with Vessela Clewley:
- What does it really take to step into leadership for the first time — and why do so many people underestimate the shift?
- How do you build confidence as a leader when you don’t yet feel “ready”?
- What’s the difference between managing tasks and truly leading people?
- How can organisations better support first-time managers before they burn out?
- What unspoken pressures do women in leadership roles carry — and how can we address them more openly?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/vessclewley/
- https://sbohub.substack.com/
- https://sbohub.gumroad.com/l/TheSBOAntiPlaybook
Biography
Vessela is an accomplished fCOO with a Strategy & BizOps background. She brings the power of US-style Strategy & Business Operations to Europe.
She has an illustrious career spanning Hopin, WeWork, Uber and other start ups. She has won global awards by the likes of WeWork & McKinsey, relaunched products like UberExec, and negotiated 7-figure deals for Hopin on walks in Regents park.
She is known for bringing a strategic, analytical, systems-driven approach to building companies. Her approach brings clarity, breaks down silos, and unlocks revenue growth. She puts company over functions; analytics over ego; and outcomes over optics.
Vessela typically partners with Seed–Series B founders who value analytical decision-making and high-velocity execution.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
00:00 – Introduction & framing the conversation
~06:20 – The reality of becoming a first-time manager
~13:45 – Imposter syndrome & self-doubt
~20:30 – The responsibility shift
~28:10 – Feedback, difficult conversations & growth
~35:50 – Building confidence through action
~44:15 – The gendered expectations in leadership
~52:00 – Creating supportive environments for new leaders
~59:40 – Advice to aspiring leaders
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcripts
Hello and welcome to another episode
Speaker:of the operations room, a podcast
Speaker:for CEOs.
Speaker:I'm Brandon Mincing joined by my
Speaker:lovely co-host, Bethany Ayers.
Speaker:What is happening?
Speaker:I think I'm feeling about the same
Speaker:as you are, Brandon.
Speaker:Let's see if I can get my name out
Speaker:there.
Speaker:It has been a very difficult week
Speaker:for the both of us and we're both
Speaker:losing our minds.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And I am desperate to
Speaker:take some time off and I need a
Speaker:vacation.
Speaker:But we're six weeks past Christmas
Speaker:and I had to be almost two weeks off
Speaker:at Christmas.
Speaker:I'm going to run out of all of my
Speaker:holiday time if I end up having to
Speaker:like take serious breaks every
Speaker:six weeks.
Speaker:But I think I need something.
Speaker:So a weekend is not enough at the
Speaker:moment, need a couple extra recovery
Speaker:days. It's half term so that
Speaker:makes things bit easier or,
Speaker:you know, there's an incentive to
Speaker:take a couple days off.
Speaker:And then like, do I share this
Speaker:publicly? Don't I share these
Speaker:publicly? I don't know.
Speaker:I guess I'll share it publicly, even
Speaker:if it's not my news to share.
Speaker:But my oldest son
Speaker:got an offer from Cambridge
Speaker:and the
Speaker:college is doing an open day for
Speaker:everybody who had offers next
Speaker:Thursday. And I've not been to
Speaker:college yet.
Speaker:And so I quite want to go with
Speaker:him. So I was just thinking about
Speaker:taking next Thursday and Friday off.
Speaker:Have a little look around the
Speaker:college.
Speaker:It's really cool, very proud
Speaker:of him, very relieved, but the
Speaker:UK system is one where
Speaker:an offer isn't the same as actually
Speaker:going. It's a conditional offer
Speaker:based on your A level results.
Speaker:So now the hard work starts.
Speaker:And also because of the system,
Speaker:he'll sit his exams through May
Speaker:and June, and then
Speaker:you don't find out to the beginning
Speaker:of August. I think it's like the 8th
Speaker:of August, something like that.
Speaker:You get the results and then either.
Speaker:Scores to get your offer or
Speaker:you don't.
Speaker:So it's a very long
Speaker:wait from February
Speaker:to August to know where
Speaker:you're going.
Speaker:That's brutal.
Speaker:Yeah, it's pretty much a
Speaker:performance-oriented system, isn't
Speaker:it? To quite a high degree.
Speaker:I mean, getting pre-approved with
Speaker:a condition whereby your results
Speaker:have to be phenomenal, and then that
Speaker:test is kind of a couple of months
Speaker:out.
Speaker:Then you actually do the test and
Speaker:you still don't get the actual
Speaker:outcome from the conditional
Speaker:approval until several months after
Speaker:that. That feels like a brutal
Speaker:process.
Speaker:It really is.
Speaker:And also, so another proud mother
Speaker:moment, he got offers from
Speaker:all five universities applied to.
Speaker:But then what you have to do is
Speaker:choose your first and second choice,
Speaker:and then all the others get released
Speaker:back to the universities.
Speaker:So you wait till August to find out.
Speaker:In his case, it's A star AA
Speaker:for Cambridge,
Speaker:ABB for his second choice and
Speaker:all of his other choices.
Speaker:So it's like, so
Speaker:you either do it or you don't.
Speaker:But if he doesn't get it, then it
Speaker:goes into this clearing process and
Speaker:you just try and find something that
Speaker:matches your grades that you want to
Speaker:do, or you take a gap year.
Speaker:It's incredibly stressful.
Speaker:Yeah, wow, that sounds rough.
Speaker:Before they're even getting out into
Speaker:the real world of stress and work
Speaker:life and all that, they have to deal
Speaker:with this juggernaut of
Speaker:performance.
Speaker:Yeah, and so I'm not looking
Speaker:forward to the build
Speaker:up to August 6th
Speaker:or 8th or whatever date it is.
Speaker:For GCSEs, we had the same thing,
Speaker:and for about four weeks,
Speaker:he just fought me.
Speaker:He's like, failed English,
Speaker:I failed English.
Speaker:I don't want to reset English.
Speaker:I never want to do English again.
Speaker:I was like, first of all, let's just
Speaker:wait and see what you got before we
Speaker:know that you failed or not failed.
Speaker:And secondly, it has nothing to do
Speaker:with me. It's.
Speaker:A requirement that everybody
Speaker:gets a GCSE in English
Speaker:in order to go
Speaker:on to the next thing.
Speaker:It's a national requirement.
Speaker:Fighting me is not going to make a
Speaker:difference. And then he would come
Speaker:back to me, like, I'm not going do
Speaker:it. I failed it. I'm going to do it,
Speaker:we did that for weeks and weeks.
Speaker:And we got his scores and he got
Speaker:nines in English, which
Speaker:is the highest.
Speaker:But he was absolutely convinced
Speaker:he had failed. And so I feel
Speaker:like his barometer
Speaker:is off.
Speaker:And I suspect that we're gonna have
Speaker:a repeat of that and we're going to
Speaker:spend weeks and weeks with him
Speaker:convinced that he's failed things.
Speaker:So to get a top score, you have to
Speaker:be a creative thinker and it's not
Speaker:just regurgitating, there has to be
Speaker:something special.
Speaker:And so I can see that you're playing
Speaker:it back in your mind.
Speaker:Were you doing something special
Speaker:good or something special really
Speaker:bad? I'm just not quite sure
Speaker:which way it went.
Speaker:When I think back to university
Speaker:days, because I remember before
Speaker:I got into the business
Speaker:administration program, there was
Speaker:like that two-year period of taking
Speaker:various courses that have to be at a
Speaker:certain level to get into the bit
Speaker:business program.
Speaker:And one of the core requirements was
Speaker:Calculus II.
Speaker:So I took Calculus 2 and it
Speaker:is the only course I ever failed.
Speaker:I got a D and the
Speaker:same thing, I walked
Speaker:away from that course like I can't
Speaker:do this. I just can't.
Speaker:I don't know how to do calculus.
Speaker:It's brutal. I cannot figure this
Speaker:stuff out. And therefore, I'm not
Speaker:getting into the business program
Speaker:and my life is shattered.
Speaker:So I think it took me, I don't know,
Speaker:two months to reset
Speaker:a little bit, reconcile myself.
Speaker:And then I was like, all right, I
Speaker:got to do this again, fine.
Speaker:So I took sort of summer school
Speaker:for university courses, took
Speaker:calculus again, and then just
Speaker:bore down as much as I could.
Speaker:And it wasn't fabulous.
Speaker:I think I got a C or a C plus or
Speaker:something. So I dragged down my GPA,
Speaker:but it was enough just to get the
Speaker:credit for the course Let's move on.
Speaker:Yeah, calculus was really hard for
Speaker:me as well, because I
Speaker:spent my junior year
Speaker:in Germany,
Speaker:and that's where we were doing
Speaker:pre-cal and
Speaker:trigonometry.
Speaker:And when I went to Germany, they
Speaker:were doing calculus.
Speaker:So I learned calculus in German
Speaker:with no buildup
Speaker:to calculus. And then when I came
Speaker:back for my final year
Speaker:in high school, they...
Speaker:Really, they just were like, okay,
Speaker:so now you're doing AP
Speaker:calculus.
Speaker:And so then I did calculus again in
Speaker:English, but still without any
Speaker:of the like foundation.
Speaker:And I don't understand trigonometry
Speaker:at all. I've never learned
Speaker:trigonometric.
Speaker:And, so I ended up passing
Speaker:calculus and getting some
Speaker:sort of AP. Like I can't remember
Speaker:what I got. I definitely didn't get
Speaker:the top mark, but I didn't fail it
Speaker:either.
Speaker:No idea how to do it,
Speaker:memorized it, understood nothing.
Speaker:And then when I went to
Speaker:uni, I ended up doing
Speaker:a
Speaker:macro or microeconomics
Speaker:that was basically just calculus.
Speaker:And again, no idea what I was doing.
Speaker:And then I did a political science
Speaker:degree graduate class that was
Speaker:calculus.
Speaker:So I have taken calculus, I think,
Speaker:four times, once in
Speaker:German, once a German, What
Speaker:a p calc once with an economics
Speaker:lens what's the political science
Speaker:lens.
Speaker:I managed to pass them all
Speaker:with, you know, slightly
Speaker:better than you, Brandon, but not
Speaker:A's.
Speaker:And I have no idea all
Speaker:four times what I was doing,
Speaker:why I was doing it, rote
Speaker:memorization.
Speaker:Yeah, I was like, oh, I have seen
Speaker:this thing before.
Speaker:This is what I do.
Speaker:Done. No idea why at
Speaker:all. So I do sometimes feel
Speaker:like I should just go and do pre-cal
Speaker:and trigonometry to understand what
Speaker:sine and cosine and and
Speaker:gentr.
Speaker:What do you mean, as a 48-year-old
Speaker:person? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker:I just feel like there's a real gap,
Speaker:because I genuinely have no idea,
Speaker:but I still feel like, and then
Speaker:maybe I could take calculus and go,
Speaker:oh.
Speaker:The shame, the shame of your
Speaker:lack of understanding of calculus
Speaker:and trigonometry.
Speaker:Yeah, and I was like, ah, so that's
Speaker:why when I move the
Speaker:whatever, the thing at the top,
Speaker:the exponent down,
Speaker:and that creates the area
Speaker:underneath the curve.
Speaker:Now I understand why.
Speaker:If I was to think about the top five
Speaker:things in the world that I would
Speaker:really not want to do, this clearly
Speaker:ranks in the top 5 of having to take
Speaker:a calculus course again.
Speaker:I think I would shoot myself.
Speaker:It's worse than taking a remedial
Speaker:driving course lesson.
Speaker:We have to sit there for three hours
Speaker:and listen to these people talk
Speaker:about the rules of the road.
Speaker:So I went to a
Speaker:JBM event this week, so JBM
Speaker:is one of the executive search firm
Speaker:recruiters in London.
Speaker:James Mitra had invited me to come
Speaker:down to the event, it was kind of
Speaker:like a small curated set of folks,
Speaker:so you feel special, I think there
Speaker:was about 20 of us, 25 of us.
Speaker:Was that the live recording?
Speaker:Yes, that's right.
Speaker:So it was the head of recruiting for
Speaker:lovable. So this head of recruiting
Speaker:for a lovable guy, he worked
Speaker:for Metta before he worked for
Speaker:Neuralink with Elon Musk.
Speaker:So he had a bit of a pretty
Speaker:spectacular track record behind him.
Speaker:So obviously great guest to land
Speaker:for the podcast and from an audience
Speaker:standpoint, somebody of interest to
Speaker:listen to.
Speaker:He said they do massive,
Speaker:massive amounts of back channeling
Speaker:for every single person.
Speaker:We're talking 10 calls with 10
Speaker:people and back
Speaker:obviously, is divisive.
Speaker:Topic for recruitment because
Speaker:people feel that in some respects
Speaker:lacks integrity because you're not
Speaker:notifying the person that you're
Speaker:doing this but he said a lovable
Speaker:it's like a key aspect of their.
Speaker:Recruitment efforts to ensure that
Speaker:the person that they're hiring is,
Speaker:in fact, a phenomenal person.
Speaker:And then the second bit that you
Speaker:mentioned, you said they don't do it
Speaker:very often, but it's an actual
Speaker:thing, whereby they'll
Speaker:identify a person of interest that
Speaker:they really, really like, they do a
Speaker:tremendous amount of
Speaker:back-channeling, and then literally
Speaker:send that person an email without
Speaker:even speaking with them saying,
Speaker:you're phenomenal, we want to offer
Speaker:you a job, here's the amount of
Speaker:money that we're going to pay you,
Speaker:this is what the role type is, If
Speaker:you like this, get in contact and we
Speaker:can chat. So it
Speaker:sounds like madness to me in some
Speaker:ways, but I guess if you're lovable,
Speaker:just making a direct overture to
Speaker:that person with an actual
Speaker:quasi-offer would make sense.
Speaker:I think it's radical, but I don't
Speaker:know if it's as successful as he,
Speaker:you know, it's a radical idea, but
Speaker:either they've only just started
Speaker:doing it, or it
Speaker:hasn't actually converted many
Speaker:people yet because otherwise he
Speaker:would tell you he'd give you the
Speaker:numbers.
Speaker:Yeah, and actually in this light, he
Speaker:also mentioned that their
Speaker:expectations around probation, they
Speaker:make it a huge deal and they tell
Speaker:the candidates from the outset,
Speaker:we've landed the job, but just be
Speaker:aware that you may not have this job
Speaker:in three months. They make it very
Speaker:clear that there's a reasonable
Speaker:probability that you're not going to
Speaker:make it past probation, setting
Speaker:expectations that what
Speaker:is required from you in that first
Speaker:three months will be under heavy
Speaker:scrutiny and you need to deliver the
Speaker:goods. And if you don't, you're
Speaker:going to pass probation.
Speaker:So, I felt like this were...
Speaker:Aggressive form of probation
Speaker:tracking seems like a good idea,
Speaker:just generally speaking.
Speaker:Particularly with the change in UK
Speaker:employment law.
Speaker:Although I don't know, are they UK
Speaker:based?
Speaker:Are they Swedish?
Speaker:Uh, they are Swedish, yeah.
Speaker:So I have no idea what Swedish law
Speaker:is like, but
Speaker:some of it you just have to be
Speaker:aware, particularly like in the UK
Speaker:with the employment laws changing,
Speaker:that it's only for the first six
Speaker:months that you can easily get rid
Speaker:of mis-hires rather than
Speaker:further.
Speaker:Bridgewater, the hedge fund does
Speaker:something similar, but I don't
Speaker:think it's three months.
Speaker:I think it is the first year is
Speaker:basically a trial year,
Speaker:and some of is your
Speaker:performance and
Speaker:level of bar.
Speaker:But it's also whether or not you can
Speaker:handle their culture.
Speaker:So it's like, can you stick with it
Speaker:or can you not stick with?
Speaker:I'm a fan of
Speaker:laying your stall out, you
Speaker:know, whatever the Shackleton
Speaker:ad about,
Speaker:you might not return, I don't know
Speaker:if you remember, was it Shackled and
Speaker:you might return from the Arctic and
Speaker:it's gonna be horrible, you're gonna
Speaker:be cold and it was blah, blah, but
Speaker:like, who's with me?
Speaker:I much prefer that kind of culture
Speaker:and bravery to get the right people
Speaker:around you than the,
Speaker:we're a family, everybody's awesome.
Speaker:Let's retain everybody and adjust
Speaker:the culture to you.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I agree, especially in
Speaker:scale ups, because scale ups are a
Speaker:burning bridge and there's no
Speaker:turning back. There's only one way,
Speaker:which is forward and, you know,
Speaker:we're going to make it or we're
Speaker:going to kind of drown making it
Speaker:essentially, which true in venture
Speaker:terms.
Speaker:So I agree a thousand percent and I
Speaker:think in practice, I think this is
Speaker:where I fall down to some extent.
Speaker:We were just having this chat before
Speaker:the podcast, but you come across
Speaker:very difficult decisions sometimes
Speaker:that are, I don't know, like your,
Speaker:I really want to call it your
Speaker:feelings and your emotions sometimes
Speaker:cloud your cold rational
Speaker:hard logic of the burning bridge
Speaker:and it's
Speaker:sometimes hard to reconcile the two
Speaker:where you fight with yourself to
Speaker:some extent.
Speaker:The absolute hardest is
Speaker:the almost good
Speaker:performer, really good guy.
Speaker:Good person bucket, and you just
Speaker:have to make that call
Speaker:and be really dispassionate about
Speaker:it.
Speaker:Yes, that is absolutely true.
Speaker:Anything else this week from a biz
Speaker:point of view?
Speaker:There seems like a feeling in
Speaker:the last two weeks that suddenly
Speaker:people understand that AI is real.
Speaker:And I think the market's just going
Speaker:to shift so quickly.
Speaker:And then did you see the article by
Speaker:Matt Schumer that
Speaker:came out? Not an article, like a
Speaker:blog post.
Speaker:I was sent it multiple times
Speaker:yesterday. So I think it's making
Speaker:the rounds.
Speaker:So I feel like by the time this
Speaker:podcast comes out, either the world
Speaker:will have fundamentally changed or
Speaker:it won't, but the start of the
Speaker:article is that.
Speaker:It feels like the beginning of
Speaker:COVID. It feels February 2020
Speaker:when it was like, oh, something's
Speaker:happening in China.
Speaker:There are people with coughs.
Speaker:Is this gonna be something?
Speaker:And then obviously three weeks
Speaker:later, the world fundamentally
Speaker:was a different place.
Speaker:And he was saying in the article
Speaker:that he feels like that's where we
Speaker:are with AI and we
Speaker:are just on the precipice of
Speaker:everybody getting it
Speaker:and things being fundamentally
Speaker:different.
Speaker:And so given-
Speaker:our proposition and we're about
Speaker:AI data security or data
Speaker:security for AI.
Speaker:I am very excited about it
Speaker:and trying to figure out how we
Speaker:capitalize on it in the market.
Speaker:But then his article is also like
Speaker:quite terrifying in ways and
Speaker:like the idea of it being another
Speaker:COVID. So I'm really feeling like
Speaker:this quite unease
Speaker:and shifting sands,
Speaker:but time will tell.
Speaker:I use a bit of the COO round table
Speaker:as, as part of my bellwether.
Speaker:Bellwether, that's the word.
Speaker:Where after OpenClaw, suddenly
Speaker:on the CEO Roundtable WhatsApp,
Speaker:everybody's like, oh, AI for
Speaker:ops. What are you doing for AI for
Speaker:Ops? How are you changing stuff in
Speaker:operations?
Speaker:And it's like for three years,
Speaker:there's been almost no talk,
Speaker:maybe one person on occasion asks a
Speaker:question. And then suddenly,
Speaker:OpenCLAW opened people's
Speaker:imaginations. They're like, oh,
Speaker:this technology works now and it can
Speaker:do stuff. What am I going to do?
Speaker:And I was actually the person on the
Speaker:WhatsApp who's always been the
Speaker:proponent of AI going,
Speaker:don't use OpenClaw in your
Speaker:work.
Speaker:Here are the blog posts written to
Speaker:keep you safe.
Speaker:Here are some of just like basic
Speaker:guardrails.
Speaker:Please don't play with fire,
Speaker:particularly not in
Speaker:your business.
Speaker:That's the part that I'm
Speaker:selfishly excited about because it's
Speaker:going to be great from Atomic but
Speaker:also worried about
Speaker:because we have just unleashed
Speaker:a technology that is unlike anything
Speaker:we've ever unleashed before.
Speaker:And at some point soon.
Speaker:AI is going to be smarter than we
Speaker:are and what is that going to mean
Speaker:and what are we going to do with it?
Speaker:So we've got a great topic for
Speaker:today, which is the BizOps
Speaker:Anti-Playbook.
Speaker:We have an amazing guest for this,
Speaker:which Vesa Kluhli.
Speaker:She is the author of The Strategy
Speaker:in BizOps anti-playbook.
Speaker:She is a fractional CEO and
Speaker:formerly of Hopin, WeWork and
Speaker:Uber in various operational roles.
Speaker:So the first question to you is Vesa
Speaker:has worked with challenging
Speaker:CEOs at Uber, We
Speaker:Work and Hopin.
Speaker:The question is how do operators
Speaker:protect culture and decision quality
Speaker:when the CEO style is intense?
Speaker:And as I ask that question, I think
Speaker:the better question is more,
Speaker:how do you get the best out of that
Speaker:intensity from the CEO?
Speaker:Not going to answer the question
Speaker:because I'm going to tell a story
Speaker:instead, which is
Speaker:we have new
Speaker:members or I have new members of
Speaker:the leadership team.
Speaker:And we are definitely in a
Speaker:storming moment, you know,
Speaker:in terms of that, like the storming,
Speaker:forming, performing.
Speaker:And we had a meeting this
Speaker:week around stuff.
Speaker:And for the first, I had these words
Speaker:come out of my mouth in a way that I
Speaker:never ever thought would happen to
Speaker:me, which is I've been an operator
Speaker:for a very long time.
Speaker:I know what it's like working for
Speaker:CEOs.
Speaker:I know it can be difficult, but I
Speaker:now understand why they're
Speaker:difficult. And I am not going
Speaker:to change and I'm not going
Speaker:apologize for it.
Speaker:And these are the behaviors that
Speaker:you're gonna expect from me and I am
Speaker:changing.
Speaker:And I'm going to have ideas.
Speaker:I'm going to have too many ideas.
Speaker:I am going to
Speaker:want us to change direction quickly
Speaker:because the market is changing so
Speaker:fast and there will be distractions.
Speaker:We are not gonna be working on a
Speaker:year long plan or even a quarter
Speaker:long plan because
Speaker:everything is changing so rapidly
Speaker:that what I need you to do is
Speaker:build the systems that
Speaker:can handle uncertainty rather
Speaker:than expect me to deliver certainty
Speaker:to you.
Speaker:And then the team just looked at me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know what though? I think that
Speaker:level of clarity coming from the
Speaker:CEO directly in the leadership
Speaker:meeting, that is what is sorely
Speaker:missing in a lot of these companies
Speaker:because oftentimes the CEOs that are
Speaker:intense, they'll never verbalize
Speaker:the expectation or verbalize
Speaker:kind of the clarity they just
Speaker:expressed to me in two seconds,
Speaker:which is, this is what I'm about.
Speaker:This is what to expect and this
Speaker:is the approach that I'm taking.
Speaker:So in effect, you're kind of setting
Speaker:up your stall with the leadership
Speaker:team to understand that.
Speaker:And be in a position where
Speaker:ultimately they're going to have to
Speaker:embrace it because they're working
Speaker:with you as a CEO, not the other
Speaker:way around.
Speaker:So I think that is rather important.
Speaker:And I think in the past, I've worked
Speaker:with CEOs where it was always
Speaker:unspoken or there's a lot of
Speaker:frustration or angst with the CEO
Speaker:in relation to the leadership team
Speaker:in different forms and flavors over
Speaker:time. And this is more broad to
Speaker:the company as well, which is in
Speaker:all hands.
Speaker:Having the courage and the clarity,
Speaker:like what is expected, what is
Speaker:wanted, what is not wanted.
Speaker:We like to do a lot of rah-rah stuff
Speaker:and kind of back away from some of
Speaker:these harder messages because we
Speaker:think it's not going to land well or
Speaker:people will be upset or whatever.
Speaker:But I think the reality is clarity
Speaker:is better than not.
Speaker:And when I say clarity, very clear.
Speaker:What are we doing?
Speaker:Why are we it?
Speaker:So even with things like a hybrid or
Speaker:being office first or things that
Speaker:may be unpopular, whatever the
Speaker:belief is.
Speaker:Rightly or wrongly, setting the
Speaker:tone, being clear about the
Speaker:expectations, and making it happen.
Speaker:Well, then there you go.
Speaker:I had a good leadership moment.
Speaker:It doesn't answer you how to work
Speaker:with the CEO, but maybe you can tell
Speaker:your CEO to be more clear.
Speaker:Be brave.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I think the actual
Speaker:answer is all the stuff that we talk
Speaker:about on this podcast, I think,
Speaker:which is creating structures of
Speaker:different forms to ensure that
Speaker:the intensity is captured and
Speaker:bottled in a very useful way for the
Speaker:company. So that's very simple
Speaker:things like you have a
Speaker:leadership meeting with the right
Speaker:people, you have the right structure
Speaker:to that leadership meeting, you have
Speaker:your company KPI dashboard that
Speaker:you're looking at, whereby there's
Speaker:actions associated to it, red flags
Speaker:and so on. There's deep dive topics
Speaker:with pre reads where.
Speaker:You have deep conversations about a
Speaker:particular subject matter, you make
Speaker:a decision, a high quality decision
Speaker:because you have leadership
Speaker:stakeholders there.
Speaker:That's action. That moves on.
Speaker:You move on to the next topic.
Speaker:These are all kind of basic
Speaker:principles, I think, over the course
Speaker:of our podcast.
Speaker:We've talked about it in different ways,
Speaker:I mean, historically.
Speaker:The second question from Vesa was,
Speaker:Europe often treats ops as a cost
Speaker:center, while the US treats ops a
Speaker:growth lover.
Speaker:And what is the deal with that, and
Speaker:how do we get Europe more in line
Speaker:with U.S.
Speaker:Last question, just quickly moving
Speaker:on. When it comes to
Speaker:U.S.
Speaker:Expansion, Vessa had talked
Speaker:about the uncomfortable truth is
Speaker:that you don't have product market
Speaker:fit or go-to-market fit, and that
Speaker:you have to revalidate all of that
Speaker:when you go into the U.
Speaker:S. Do you believe that is true?
Speaker:On the whole, yes.
Speaker:Post-COVID, things have changed a
Speaker:little bit because so much is done
Speaker:remotely and you can end up selling
Speaker:and actually growing a business
Speaker:before landing there.
Speaker:But I thought that was quite a
Speaker:nice insight of hers and why
Speaker:expanding into America is so hard
Speaker:over and over again is because
Speaker:you don't have product market fit,
Speaker:you have different competitors, you
Speaker:have a different culture,
Speaker:different legislative reasons,
Speaker:different market.
Speaker:And so in some ways I was like, ah,
Speaker:that's why when you land
Speaker:in America, it takes you 18 months
Speaker:to really fly.
Speaker:There's two things I would think
Speaker:about. Number one is getting your
Speaker:best sales rep in the UK to sell
Speaker:remotely into the US and to do trips
Speaker:out there to really do that first
Speaker:level validation, then pair that
Speaker:sales rep with a BDR from
Speaker:the UK selling it to the US, and
Speaker:that's your second step.
Speaker:And then your third step is to get
Speaker:your US rep to move over
Speaker:there in some respect, whether it's
Speaker:that individual or another.
Speaker:Get some transplanted domain experts
Speaker:that know what they're doing over
Speaker:there to kind of continue that
Speaker:process and then build from there.
Speaker:The second part that I would think
Speaker:about is getting a product person to
Speaker:do exactly the same thing, which is
Speaker:I think the sales rep thing that I
Speaker:just described, people get that and
Speaker:people tend to do that, which makes
Speaker:obvious intuitive sense.
Speaker:What they don't think about is the
Speaker:second step, which is the product
Speaker:person doing exactly the thing,
Speaker:early doors, going out there.
Speaker:Talking to prospects ad
Speaker:nauseam to truly understand what is
Speaker:the difference in this marketplace
Speaker:from a product perspective that we
Speaker:need to understand now business can
Speaker:take six months to build the stuff
Speaker:instead of the sales reps selling
Speaker:to these customers figuring out as
Speaker:you go and then suddenly have a
Speaker:whole tranche of.
Speaker:Changes they have to do and you
Speaker:don't get those things done for
Speaker:another six months and it's just
Speaker:gonna slow down your sales cycle and
Speaker:hurt you in a way they don't need so
Speaker:why don't we park it here and get on
Speaker:to our conversation with the best.
Speaker:The status quo in Europe,
Speaker:when it comes to operations,
Speaker:is kind of very much about, oh,
Speaker:it's a bit of finance and maybe a
Speaker:bit people give operations
Speaker:to functional leaders and just
Speaker:set and forget and kind of don't
Speaker:worry about it, it's all going to
Speaker:take care of itself.
Speaker:The European founders usually think
Speaker:of operations kind of more as a cost
Speaker:rather than as a growth lever.
Speaker:And I think the issue that arises
Speaker:from that is that, basically, when
Speaker:you have strategy, but nobody's
Speaker:actually.
Speaker:Responsible for the coherent
Speaker:delivery of it, you
Speaker:end up with this gap between
Speaker:strategy and execution.
Speaker:Like you think you're doing one
Speaker:thing, but actually you're doing
Speaker:something else, simply because
Speaker:your team is actually not executing
Speaker:what you've actually told them to
Speaker:do. So all the way from marketing
Speaker:to finance, from prospective
Speaker:cash to actually collecting the
Speaker:cash, you need to make sure you have
Speaker:kind of a fully operational system
Speaker:that kind of works as
Speaker:a whole. One thing that American
Speaker:companies figured out probably
Speaker:two decades ago now because started
Speaker:with Google is that ops can
Speaker:be a real growth lever.
Speaker:So they basically marry strategy and
Speaker:operations, i.e.
Speaker:Analytics and structured kind of
Speaker:problem solving, and the delivery
Speaker:of said kind of very big complex
Speaker:programs along the
Speaker:company. And once they did this,
Speaker:they actually saw that, you know, a
Speaker:very small team kind of like a SWAT
Speaker:team can kind of come in and kind do
Speaker:something quite impactful
Speaker:for the company.
Speaker:So yeah, all those teams in
Speaker:companies like, you know, Google,
Speaker:LinkedIn, Coinbase, on the
Speaker:European side now in Monzo,
Speaker:or even, you know, newer companies
Speaker:like Atio or Marshmallow.
Speaker:They all have this kind of people
Speaker:that really break the silos that
Speaker:emerge between functions and
Speaker:help deliver the strategy for the
Speaker:company.
Speaker:Okay. So fine.
Speaker:So tell me this, like, why do you
Speaker:think you're kind of connecting dots
Speaker:here as like Europeans don't really
Speaker:get it. It's kind of like a cost
Speaker:center mentality and they're doing a
Speaker:bit of finance and all this stuff,
Speaker:but they don't see it as a growth
Speaker:lever. So why do think that is?
Speaker:When I think of this stuff in my
Speaker:head, I'm like, so this is like a
Speaker:cultural thing. Like what are we
Speaker:really talking about is because we
Speaker:simply don't have the muscle in
Speaker:the UK where people are experienced
Speaker:doing this stuff where we have like
Speaker:a smaller community of like people
Speaker:like yourself that get it, but
Speaker:there's very few individuals that do
Speaker:get it so therefore it kind of just
Speaker:doesn't happen basically.
Speaker:Or what's the rationale?
Speaker:What's the reason as to why you
Speaker:think this is?
Speaker:I think there's probably two
Speaker:main reasons.
Speaker:One is the investors
Speaker:on the US side are
Speaker:mostly ex-founders.
Speaker:They've been there, they've done
Speaker:that. They understand the challenges
Speaker:that come with scale.
Speaker:Investors that are on the European
Speaker:side, when you look at their CVs,
Speaker:they've been in consulting or
Speaker:banking. They have worked more with
Speaker:big institutional type of companies
Speaker:where those functions are
Speaker:very siloed and very segregated just
Speaker:by the nature of the size of those
Speaker:companies.
Speaker:And so from there, is
Speaker:no push for European founders
Speaker:to have to learn this kind of
Speaker:things.
Speaker:They learn by doing, but I
Speaker:think that the cycle
Speaker:for learning is usually
Speaker:like 10 to 20 years.
Speaker:So by the time you get a founder who
Speaker:is a multiple exit
Speaker:founder who can tell you, hey, I
Speaker:know exactly what kind of person I
Speaker:need and I can understand why
Speaker:systems thinking within my company
Speaker:is important and they can understand
Speaker:how to make operations actually work
Speaker:for them.
Speaker:These are usually founders who are,
Speaker:you know, already on their second or
Speaker:third company, and there's just
Speaker:not that many of them.
Speaker:Um, so you just don't have that,
Speaker:I think, know how.
Speaker:And the other thing, which is
Speaker:also important is we don't
Speaker:have in Europe still the
Speaker:talent. It's also done the rounds in
Speaker:that many multiple times across,
Speaker:you know, different functions.
Speaker:And so they can not even put
Speaker:the case in front of the founders
Speaker:that, Hey, this is valuable.
Speaker:And here's how it's going to work
Speaker:and make it very, very tangible
Speaker:because you can't just tell them.
Speaker:Hey, I'm going to do this kind of
Speaker:nebulous thing for you.
Speaker:No, they want to see the results.
Speaker:They want to say, okay, how are you
Speaker:going to structure it? Who's going
Speaker:to be there? What kind of talent do
Speaker:you need? How do you hire for it?
Speaker:BizOps is difficult to hire for
Speaker:because BizOps, you know,
Speaker:something very different in every
Speaker:company. And so you need to really
Speaker:kind of go in and understand what
Speaker:does that company need right now.
Speaker:The only thing that's common,
Speaker:especially if you're, let's say B2B
Speaker:SaaS, BizOps usually starts with
Speaker:RevOps.
Speaker:As a BizOps leader, the first thing
Speaker:you hire.
Speaker:Is like a rev-ops person.
Speaker:And then you can grow from there.
Speaker:But if you want somebody who's going
Speaker:to be potentially your COO,
Speaker:they need to have done, you know,
Speaker:biz-ops and obviously like rev-ups,
Speaker:pricing, partners, you now, probably
Speaker:a bit of legal, a bit different
Speaker:things so that they can put.
Speaker:Know, all the dots together.
Speaker:Yeah, Brandon and I are definitely
Speaker:in that bucket.
Speaker:All I do is connect dots.
Speaker:Every day I'm just connecting.
Speaker:Connect dots and lots of different
Speaker:functional expertise.
Speaker:I'm just gonna pause at the other
Speaker:question to you. So what can
Speaker:Americans learn, American founders
Speaker:learn from European ones?
Speaker:I think American founders can
Speaker:learn a bit of discipline, mostly
Speaker:because obviously Americans
Speaker:are kind of like cowboys.
Speaker:Tech is the Wild West and everything
Speaker:goes.
Speaker:And I think obviously that mentality
Speaker:comes with a lot of societal
Speaker:costs.
Speaker:So move fast and break things
Speaker:can be perfectly
Speaker:fine when you're Facebook.
Speaker:But if you are doing a
Speaker:medical company, you cannot move
Speaker:fast to break things.
Speaker:So I think.
Speaker:Having probably more responsibility
Speaker:and accountability for what happens
Speaker:and not just thinking that, oh,
Speaker:legal is just, they just say no.
Speaker:Sometimes they say no for a good
Speaker:reason. A good legal counsel is
Speaker:going to help you actually to do
Speaker:what you want to do, but in a way
Speaker:that you can do it rather than in a
Speaker:that some governmental
Speaker:body is gonna come chasing you down
Speaker:the line. I think that is kind
Speaker:of a key learning.
Speaker:Don't break the law.
Speaker:That's good, okay.
Speaker:It could be good, yes.
Speaker:So on this note then, so you've got
Speaker:your classic European founder,
Speaker:we want to go to the US, we've just
Speaker:raised our series B.
Speaker:They're like, yeah, let's do this.
Speaker:I've got my 14 point checklist from
Speaker:Index Ventures and we just need
Speaker:to hire some reps in the US to start
Speaker:the ball rolling. Let's do it ASAP.
Speaker:What are we getting wrong?
Speaker:What's the European founder getting
Speaker:wrong in their mentality.
Speaker:So I think usually when you talk
Speaker:about expansion, what
Speaker:founders see is a lot of
Speaker:ARR on a spreadsheet and
Speaker:it all looks great.
Speaker:It's all going to be a hockey stick,
Speaker:it's all gonna be, you know, I go
Speaker:into a new market and all of a
Speaker:sudden I have all this like new
Speaker:money just pouring in.
Speaker:A key assumption that I
Speaker:push founders to think about, and
Speaker:it's a very uncomfortable one, but
Speaker:I think it's very useful,
Speaker:they need to think that you don't
Speaker:have actually product market fit or
Speaker:go to market fit.
Speaker:In the new jurisdiction in
Speaker:which you're going.
Speaker:And I say this because obviously
Speaker:the requirements of
Speaker:the market will be slightly
Speaker:different and I think if you
Speaker:approach it with curiosity, you're
Speaker:gonna learn much more versus trying
Speaker:to shove for ground down somebody's
Speaker:drill. For example, when I was at
Speaker:Hopin, I can tell you we had
Speaker:obviously launched a global B2B
Speaker:SaaS product.
Speaker:It was working well everywhere.
Speaker:Obviously, there was a lot of organic
Speaker:demand. I could look at my
Speaker:figures for Germany and I could tell
Speaker:that You know, we're selling
Speaker:basically a third of what we should
Speaker:be. And that rang a lot
Speaker:of bells and
Speaker:raised a lot of red flags and
Speaker:we spoke to my boss about it.
Speaker:And it's like, okay, why is that
Speaker:happening?
Speaker:No, like, well, when you dig into
Speaker:it, you realize that obviously
Speaker:the product is great, people like it
Speaker:on my user level, but actually the
Speaker:go-to-market motion, which involves
Speaker:kind of going through all the
Speaker:GDPR stuff at the time.
Speaker:Cause also this was just launching.
Speaker:The Germans really, they care
Speaker:a lot about GDPR.
Speaker:Yeah, JDPR is a big
Speaker:thing.
Speaker:And they wanted things which
Speaker:obviously, as a startup, we couldn't
Speaker:provide.
Speaker:They wanted, oh, we want a data
Speaker:room, sorry, a data center in
Speaker:Germany, we want all these other
Speaker:things, stuff which would take
Speaker:12 months for us to deliver on
Speaker:the engineering side.
Speaker:So it was kind of impossible to do.
Speaker:I'm like, okay, great.
Speaker:It's fine for you to do this.
Speaker:But I was like, basically what is
Speaker:happening is we don't have that
Speaker:go-to-market fit for that market.
Speaker:So if you want to really tackle the
Speaker:market, You need to understand,
Speaker:okay, tick on the
Speaker:people team's request, which is all
Speaker:about headcount.
Speaker:Do we have the headcount there,
Speaker:boots on the ground?
Speaker:Yes, we do.
Speaker:Have we figured out how to hire the
Speaker:people? Yes, yes, we have.
Speaker:Okay, fine.
Speaker:Sales team, do they have the
Speaker:playbooks? Yes, they do.
Speaker:The customer wants the same.
Speaker:The CS team can work with them
Speaker:fine.
Speaker:But when it came to engineering and
Speaker:legal, there were a lot of
Speaker:things to be desired.
Speaker:And so we had to design basically
Speaker:a whole kind of program to prove to
Speaker:the regulator.
Speaker:And therefore, customers that,
Speaker:hey, we're going to be fully
Speaker:compliant in, say, nine to 12
Speaker:months, but we're gonna start with,
Speaker:let's say, kind of, you know, a
Speaker:legal cover letter, here's the plan,
Speaker:here are the things that are gonna
Speaker:happen. I kind of walk them through
Speaker:it and basically solve a
Speaker:go-to-market problem
Speaker:with basically everything that
Speaker:BizOps could help with.
Speaker:And so, you really need to
Speaker:understand, usually, you don't have
Speaker:pro-market fit, maybe go-
Speaker:to-market-fit, assume that
Speaker:so that you know kind of what can
Speaker:happen. And understand that every
Speaker:single department will have
Speaker:a different point of view on what
Speaker:they want from that
Speaker:new go-to-market motion,
Speaker:basically. Balance those.
Speaker:US expansion two
Speaker:times and supported a couple
Speaker:other companies through it and
Speaker:it always takes longer and
Speaker:costs more and
Speaker:has multiple failures along
Speaker:the way.
Speaker:And even knowing the failures
Speaker:still fail again.
Speaker:What are the top three things do you
Speaker:have that would just maybe
Speaker:possibly de-risk your US
Speaker:expansion, or do you think that's
Speaker:impossible and you just have to
Speaker:budget two to three times as much as
Speaker:you think and two to three
Speaker:times longer to crack it?
Speaker:I think when it comes to, let's say,
Speaker:US expansion,
Speaker:that one anyway is a bit easier,
Speaker:I think, because there
Speaker:are plenty of parties that can
Speaker:help you with this now.
Speaker:But one thing is when you want
Speaker:to expand, that would be kind of
Speaker:the first thing. What are the signs
Speaker:that you need to actually...
Speaker:An entity that is that
Speaker:is it your investors demanding that
Speaker:you have an entity not signed enough
Speaker:or do you need a proper sign?
Speaker:Like, founders need to be able to
Speaker:kind of push back sometimes because
Speaker:investors want it.
Speaker:Obviously, the investors have a
Speaker:point of view. Why do they want it?
Speaker:Like, is it because you're getting
Speaker:investment from the US?
Speaker:If that's the reason, then okay,
Speaker:that's a good enough reason because
Speaker:otherwise, you're not getting the
Speaker:investment. But if it is just an
Speaker:entity for entity's sake, there is
Speaker:no point. There is just probably
Speaker:different times when you can spend,
Speaker:I don't know, 20, 50K
Speaker:on all the legal fees that you
Speaker:need to expand.
Speaker:So knowing when to do it.
Speaker:Pushing back.
Speaker:Since you've done it, you know,
Speaker:multiple times, I imagine that you
Speaker:will, you'll know kind
Speaker:of roughly when that happens and you
Speaker:can push back on those things.
Speaker:And the other thing is I think doing
Speaker:a little bit of upfront,
Speaker:like kind of research with
Speaker:the actual, you know, people who are
Speaker:both using and buying your product,
Speaker:kind of as a soft test, maybe as
Speaker:a soft launch to know
Speaker:what are the real kind of challenges
Speaker:you're going to run into.
Speaker:So doing a little bit of that
Speaker:research, kind of pre, kind of
Speaker:big reveal, big kind of,
Speaker:you know, here I am, and I'm, you
Speaker:know, putting my flag in the US, so
Speaker:to speak. Those are the kind of the
Speaker:two things I would do.
Speaker:And then I just get
Speaker:a good kind of finance
Speaker:and accounting firm to help
Speaker:you with the setup of kind of
Speaker:from the back end of that, because
Speaker:US taxes get very, very complicated,
Speaker:so have the right partner there.
Speaker:I have a question for you.
Speaker:So the initial kind of discovery
Speaker:piece around go-to-market fit and.
Speaker:Doing some level of like research,
Speaker:interacting with the initial set of
Speaker:prospects and customers really
Speaker:feeling your way through it.
Speaker:Do we have any actual challenges
Speaker:with our so-called go-to-market fit
Speaker:or what do we need to reconcile
Speaker:either from our product perspective
Speaker:or go- to-market motion perspective
Speaker:or what have you.
Speaker:Once you're past that phase, let's
Speaker:say we have some initial as
Speaker:usual UK folks going
Speaker:to the US, kind of feeling their way
Speaker:through this and identifying that
Speaker:and you maybe hire your first person
Speaker:in the US.
Speaker:No office and they start activating
Speaker:themselves And you're like, all
Speaker:right, fine.
Speaker:So we've done this part of it.
Speaker:We've done some level of discovery.
Speaker:It feels like we're on the right
Speaker:track. We're signing deals at some
Speaker:level of cadence that makes sense.
Speaker:And it feels like the product's
Speaker:doing its little trick and the
Speaker:motion seems to be working.
Speaker:We hired the first rep, seems to be
Speaker:happening, fine, let's
Speaker:get our investment.
Speaker:Let's take the cash.
Speaker:Let's do the first big bash of like
Speaker:the first cohort effectively.
Speaker:So let's go to an office in New York
Speaker:City. Let's hire a batch of six
Speaker:AEs and maybe a couple of BDRs.
Speaker:And let's install a team ASAP all
Speaker:as one go around basically.
Speaker:How do you ensure in that second
Speaker:step that things were successful?
Speaker:Because this is where I find things
Speaker:fall down a little bit where you
Speaker:have your sense check, everything's
Speaker:cool, you have the first cohort,
Speaker:they start ramping in and then
Speaker:you're like, oh shit, they're like
Speaker:they're not exactly ramping in as we
Speaker:expected.
Speaker:And you're, like, is it them?
Speaker:Is it us? Is it the market?
Speaker:What is going on here?
Speaker:When you have that one person that
Speaker:actually can analyze and
Speaker:can really get the early signs or
Speaker:the leading indicators of how
Speaker:this team is doing, you're
Speaker:going to be setting yourself up for
Speaker:success much better
Speaker:because you know what's
Speaker:happening and rather than figuring
Speaker:out all this team didn't ramp up,
Speaker:you know, six months down the line.
Speaker:You can actually see how is that
Speaker:evolving kind of on a week by week
Speaker:and a month by month basis, so you
Speaker:can prevent a lot of those kind
Speaker:of future mistakes.
Speaker:The other thing I've seen companies
Speaker:do is obviously the
Speaker:one founder at least can go into
Speaker:the U S and just keep an eye very,
Speaker:very closely.
Speaker:And I think just having that level
Speaker:of commitment from companies
Speaker:obviously gives the local team
Speaker:a sense that, Hey, this is an
Speaker:important market and you
Speaker:know, what you're doing here
Speaker:matters. And obviously the founder
Speaker:can install some of, you know, their
Speaker:own Kocha.
Speaker:And obviously you can show them the
Speaker:learnings that they've usually
Speaker:accumulated through years
Speaker:of selling, you
Speaker:European side.
Speaker:And that one I think is
Speaker:the lesson that businesses have to
Speaker:learn on their own
Speaker:over and over again because
Speaker:there's like a lot of European
Speaker:founders have no interest in moving
Speaker:to America. Some do but
Speaker:oftentimes it's
Speaker:a forced moment a
Speaker:year or two years too late.
Speaker:No, I think so.
Speaker:And I think, I think the founder
Speaker:definitely should be spending some
Speaker:time there.
Speaker:And you know, whether they really
Speaker:want to move kind of full time,
Speaker:it depends on everybody's
Speaker:circumstance. If they have a family,
Speaker:they probably don't want to move
Speaker:everybody just like that.
Speaker:And that's perfectly understandable.
Speaker:But having maybe a chief of staff or
Speaker:somebody who is like a true
Speaker:representative of the C-suite of
Speaker:the company.
Speaker:Into the geography I think really,
Speaker:really helps. I just don't think it
Speaker:works without it.
Speaker:I mean, Brandon, have you ever seen
Speaker:it work without the original?
Speaker:Yeah, it is fascinating.
Speaker:I've sort of seen it work because we
Speaker:went to the US for the Series B
Speaker:expansion and he decided
Speaker:not to move to the U.S.
Speaker:And he was making frequent trips for
Speaker:sure. But we had set up a New York
Speaker:City office, so, you know, kind of
Speaker:this thing that I described, a ton
Speaker:of AEs, a ton BDRs at the time.
Speaker:We hired pretty early
Speaker:on kind of like our general
Speaker:manager, I guess.
Speaker:Like he definitely was like sales
Speaker:lineage from the industry.
Speaker:Had his chops in place and was a
Speaker:bit broader in terms of this GM kind
Speaker:of capability and remit and so on.
Speaker:So he was an instrumental person,
Speaker:I would say to kind of like
Speaker:professionalize our office
Speaker:situation. It was a good caretaker
Speaker:of what needed to happen across the
Speaker:GTM holistically, I suppose, and
Speaker:also was a connection back to
Speaker:leadership back in the headquarters.
Speaker:Was he American or like, did he
Speaker:come from the UK team or
Speaker:did you hire him in America?
Speaker:We hired him independently as our
Speaker:GM from America.
Speaker:I think he was based in New York
Speaker:City himself. So he was full on
Speaker:U.S. In this case.
Speaker:So that initial kind of like, I
Speaker:don't know, rampant of what had to
Speaker:happen for Signal worked
Speaker:to a certain extent.
Speaker:And then we got to a sort of level
Speaker:and then things kind of fell apart
Speaker:basically. And in that later stage I
Speaker:was not a part of that so I don't
Speaker:know why it fell apart exactly, but
Speaker:it did.
Speaker:So moderate success is maybe the
Speaker:best way to characterize it.
Speaker:But I think to your point, the zeal
Speaker:of the founder, especially when
Speaker:you've raised cash, they're
Speaker:committed.
Speaker:They know they're next on the line a
Speaker:little bit. They're like, yeah, this
Speaker:US thing is our bet.
Speaker:I need to make this happen.
Speaker:I'm there.
Speaker:I think this is one where kind of
Speaker:quote-unquote going founder mode
Speaker:definitely pays off.
Speaker:Not that I like to use that phrase.
Speaker:Need to go and manage it.
Speaker:I also think that if
Speaker:founders can reframe
Speaker:being annoyed at having to
Speaker:move to America from their lovely,
Speaker:safe European homes,
Speaker:it gives them an opportunity to do
Speaker:what they do best, which is start
Speaker:at zero again and be properly
Speaker:entrepreneurial.
Speaker:Part of it is being a founder and
Speaker:part of it it's actually their
Speaker:skills and they're doing the same
Speaker:thing again.
Speaker:Do we have PMF?
Speaker:Do we go to market fit?
Speaker:What's wrong?
Speaker:And then very quickly funneling
Speaker:back, here's the problems.
Speaker:Yeah. And networking like crazy,
Speaker:learning like crazy in
Speaker:a way that you do when it's
Speaker:your baby.
Speaker:So if we change
Speaker:tack a little bit or change topics,
Speaker:you've done a lot of pricing as
Speaker:part of your background and
Speaker:career. We are in
Speaker:the process of revisiting our
Speaker:pricing yet again.
Speaker:Godspeed be with you,
Speaker:if I was religious.
Speaker:Definitely part of the challenge is
Speaker:if you look at our competitors,
Speaker:nobody knows how to price and
Speaker:pricing is all over the place,
Speaker:changing on a regular basis.
Speaker:There's no consistency.
Speaker:There's not way that customers are
Speaker:used to buying.
Speaker:And so it's really like,
Speaker:you can't even just steal somebody
Speaker:else's.
Speaker:It's quite a challenge right now.
Speaker:So who should lead it?
Speaker:And how should we get started?
Speaker:Pricing, first, I feel
Speaker:you in all the pain, and I want to
Speaker:say that actually what you're
Speaker:experiencing when you say our
Speaker:competitors haven't also figured it
Speaker:out and there's no real habits in
Speaker:how you buy, that's actually a great
Speaker:opportunity, I think,
Speaker:because then you can design
Speaker:it in a way which is from first
Speaker:principles.
Speaker:You can design in such a way that
Speaker:obviously your existing customers
Speaker:and your potential customers can
Speaker:both be on board for how they
Speaker:buy. So pressing usually...
Speaker:Different companies that I've
Speaker:advised, pricing will either
Speaker:be led or begin
Speaker:to be led by, you know, kind of the
Speaker:go-to-market side or by product,
Speaker:depending on what the real pain
Speaker:is with pricing.
Speaker:Now, the thing is that what
Speaker:a lot of founders, I think,
Speaker:don't understand well enough
Speaker:is that pricing is really, really
Speaker:complex as a matter.
Speaker:And what I mean by this is kind of
Speaker:it goes into the same territory
Speaker:as expansion.
Speaker:Or launching a channel, partner
Speaker:motion, or changing a business
Speaker:model, that kind of thing.
Speaker:It's something which touches every
Speaker:single part of your company, whether
Speaker:you like it or not.
Speaker:Even if you don't want to think
Speaker:about it, even if you think, I'm
Speaker:just going to change this on the
Speaker:marketing website and then I'm done
Speaker:like this, I have news for you,
Speaker:you're not.
Speaker:Because marketing obviously needs to
Speaker:do its part, sales needs to to do
Speaker:their part, product finance,
Speaker:everybody needs to be on board and
Speaker:coherently on board and together,
Speaker:because...
Speaker:Sales will be pushing you and say,
Speaker:oh, this is too expensive and we
Speaker:can't close.
Speaker:Therefore, we need the lowest price.
Speaker:CES will say, you know, the way
Speaker:you've structured this, you know,
Speaker:pricing spirals out of control.
Speaker:All of a sudden we see a lot of
Speaker:churn.
Speaker:That's a problem.
Speaker:Or we can't expand.
Speaker:You sell everything to begin with,
Speaker:so where's the expansion for us?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:So where's where's.
Speaker:My commission, so to speak.
Speaker:Obviously, if you press to load and
Speaker:finance starts, you know, raising
Speaker:flags and saying your margins are
Speaker:eroding and obviously soon you
Speaker:don't have a business.
Speaker:So you throw in all these different,
Speaker:obviously, interests and very
Speaker:natural pulls and tugs.
Speaker:And if you end up changing them too
Speaker:often, then your operational
Speaker:team, whether it's, you know a
Speaker:central team or even within sales
Speaker:operations or product operations,
Speaker:they can't cope because they cannot
Speaker:change the systems in a current way
Speaker:that quickly.
Speaker:I dare you change Salesforce with
Speaker:a couple of days
Speaker:for a big pricing change.
Speaker:And then you end up with cohorts of
Speaker:customers on a different pricing
Speaker:schedule. You're trying to figure
Speaker:out what they're paying and how.
Speaker:Oh, yes.
Speaker:Try keeping track of it.
Speaker:And I can tell you even AI cannot
Speaker:help you with this.
Speaker:It's very, very hard.
Speaker:And so the issue is that obviously
Speaker:when you have pricing being led by
Speaker:one of those apartments,
Speaker:whichever one it is, it could be
Speaker:finance, it can be whichever one,
Speaker:you end up biasing the outcome
Speaker:towards what they want.
Speaker:And that is an issue long-term.
Speaker:You may think it's fine for the
Speaker:first three to six months even,
Speaker:but down the line, you ended up
Speaker:having a lot of different problems.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:This is why I think a lot of
Speaker:companies bring in kind of an
Speaker:external consultant sometimes does
Speaker:pricing and kind of lead that.
Speaker:Or obviously if they have kind of a
Speaker:strategy and ops team, somebody
Speaker:within that will lead it sometimes
Speaker:could be with the help of somebody
Speaker:else as well, because not
Speaker:everybody's a pricing expert.
Speaker:I've done a number of changes and
Speaker:every single time I've learned
Speaker:something new, changing from
Speaker:a platform and kind of a SaaS
Speaker:pricing to a usage based pricing
Speaker:or everything being based on.
Speaker:Of outcomes and AI now, because
Speaker:obviously that's in vogue and
Speaker:trying those kinds of things.
Speaker:But you need to kind of take it as
Speaker:a full project,
Speaker:which you're going to then re-learn
Speaker:and redo every two to
Speaker:six months, because like
Speaker:pricing is not a single change.
Speaker:It's not a flip of a switch.
Speaker:It is something which is kind of a
Speaker:fundamental part of the operations
Speaker:of your company.
Speaker:You need to do it consistently
Speaker:and coherently.
Speaker:So when it comes to consistency
Speaker:around pricing and packaging.
Speaker:How do you do that?
Speaker:Because I feel like every time I've
Speaker:done this before, and pricing is
Speaker:never a standalone pricing.
Speaker:It's always pricing and the
Speaker:packaging itself. They're
Speaker:intertwined very closely, obviously.
Speaker:So there's a certain level of
Speaker:complexity there between the
Speaker:packages and the prices and so on.
Speaker:So normally, this has been like a
Speaker:strategic initiative that's been
Speaker:driven by me or somebody like me,
Speaker:basically, where you're pulling
Speaker:stakeholders together because you're
Speaker:right, it's cross-functional
Speaker:impacts, everyone has to be thought
Speaker:through carefully because it's
Speaker:literally the pricing of the
Speaker:company. You don't want to screw
Speaker:what's happening.
Speaker:And also we have existing customers
Speaker:in our plans historically and how
Speaker:you kind of migrate those folks over
Speaker:to the new situation, all of it
Speaker:needs to be thought through rather
Speaker:carefully.
Speaker:And it's been successful, I would
Speaker:say, in terms of the strategic
Speaker:initiative focus or an OKR
Speaker:or whatever the case might be.
Speaker:What I've never got into the groove
Speaker:of, and I think partially because it
Speaker:was never really required, I guess,
Speaker:which is more the consistency part
Speaker:of it or revisiting it on some
Speaker:basis. Like once we did our
Speaker:strategic shift, we're like,
Speaker:boom, done, let's move on, next
Speaker:problem.
Speaker:Uh, as an operator.
Speaker:So this consistency piece,
Speaker:tell me about that. Like how, how,
Speaker:how can that realistically happen?
Speaker:Do you think in scale ups?
Speaker:So this is something which
Speaker:I think most scale-ups
Speaker:need to actually look at their
Speaker:pricing and how it's working,
Speaker:probably on a three to six month
Speaker:basis.
Speaker:And I say this because usually the
Speaker:market will move kind of underneath
Speaker:you and if you don't move with
Speaker:it, you probably will be
Speaker:leaving money on the table or you
Speaker:might be losing some opportunities
Speaker:for up-sale, that kind of thing.
Speaker:So it kind of goes back to the
Speaker:curiosity kind of lever that we've
Speaker:been talking about.
Speaker:Just really kind of going again with
Speaker:talking to your ICP, talking
Speaker:to your existing customers, kind of
Speaker:figuring out what's bringing value
Speaker:for them, what is not, and maybe
Speaker:not rejiggling necessarily
Speaker:your pricing tiers or
Speaker:even the pricing itself, but more
Speaker:like what goes behind each package
Speaker:so that you can draft
Speaker:people up a value chain of the
Speaker:product, basically.
Speaker:What's the practice, I guess is what
Speaker:I'm asking. You know what I mean?
Speaker:Like are we, does this still sit
Speaker:with Brandon? Do I pull these people
Speaker:together like once a quarter or
Speaker:something or like what are we doing
Speaker:here?
Speaker:So I think usually if you have
Speaker:kind of a operations generalist
Speaker:type of a person or
Speaker:maybe somebody within product ops,
Speaker:or maybe somebody within kind of rev
Speaker:ops, they can be tasked with
Speaker:doing kind of a periodic review of
Speaker:this and bringing kind of an
Speaker:analysis. Like how is it going now?
Speaker:How is it working if there's a need
Speaker:for a big change, then obviously
Speaker:they can pull in everybody together
Speaker:and it can become kind of a bigger
Speaker:thing again, but it's good to have
Speaker:somebody within at least probably
Speaker:one of those two buckets that looks
Speaker:at it.
Speaker:Quote on your basis.
Speaker:And what are they looking at?
Speaker:Gross margin, win rates,
Speaker:expansion.
Speaker:So they will be looking at kind of,
Speaker:you know, first kind of starting
Speaker:with the go-to-market funnel,
Speaker:you know, reasons for
Speaker:DOs won or lost and how does
Speaker:pricing kind of fair in there,
Speaker:because usually that's
Speaker:kind of a key reason, either or.
Speaker:That's interesting, because I
Speaker:normally just disregard
Speaker:losses for price being too
Speaker:much.
Speaker:Because I guess it's just if it
Speaker:becomes higher. No, because normally
Speaker:I'm like, yeah, that's just a
Speaker:salesperson who didn't explain
Speaker:value, rather than
Speaker:actually too high a price.
Speaker:But I guess if it goes out of the
Speaker:normal range, that's
Speaker:when you should look at it.
Speaker:Did they not explain it
Speaker:or the person just didn't actually
Speaker:value it?
Speaker:So this is where I think there's a
Speaker:second layer of why, which you
Speaker:can get to to kind of understand,
Speaker:is this really driven by lack of
Speaker:value or maybe just, you know, you
Speaker:have a sales team, which is
Speaker:performing could be multiple
Speaker:reasons.
Speaker:Okay, so I guess if it's like
Speaker:out of the normal range of pricing
Speaker:as a reason, that's something to
Speaker:look at.
Speaker:No, absolutely.
Speaker:And you can look at like, for
Speaker:example, in your CS
Speaker:team, are they managing to
Speaker:upsell?
Speaker:And for what reasons?
Speaker:You know, are the packages adequate
Speaker:or not?
Speaker:If you know, the team has tried to
Speaker:up sell, but actually the
Speaker:customer, you know doesn't want to
Speaker:because they have everything within
Speaker:a package, maybe there's time to
Speaker:breathing the packages to make sure
Speaker:that there is a path forward for
Speaker:upsell.
Speaker:So those kind of things I'd look at.
Speaker:And then you talked about the
Speaker:outcomes, like the new AI
Speaker:fad of charging per
Speaker:outcome.
Speaker:And so obviously thinking about it
Speaker:with us, do you think it always
Speaker:works?
Speaker:Like the example, okay, cool.
Speaker:Cause I was like,
Speaker:cause sometimes it's not really,
Speaker:even if you're using AI, it's, not
Speaker:an outcome based solution
Speaker:that you're reducing cost in.
Speaker:And I think this goes back to the
Speaker:discussion about really figuring
Speaker:out what kind of value is your
Speaker:customer really buying.
Speaker:So pricing based on an outcome works
Speaker:for Zendesk or Intercom
Speaker:because the outcome is very
Speaker:clearly definable and
Speaker:quantifiable.
Speaker:But if your outcome is something
Speaker:quite more nebulous or something
Speaker:that takes longer for
Speaker:your customer to actually see
Speaker:and get to, then probably that's
Speaker:not the right pricing.
Speaker:And I guess also, so now we're just
Speaker:going straight into our actual
Speaker:problems at work, our
Speaker:thinking is one of the things that
Speaker:we do is scan
Speaker:all of your
Speaker:SAS assets and tag them
Speaker:and tell you whether or not
Speaker:they're sensitive and what kind
Speaker:of sensitive information are in
Speaker:them. And so I guess the outcome
Speaker:could be that every single asset
Speaker:you have is labeled.
Speaker:That's not the end value.
Speaker:That's a means to an end.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And then it's like, ultimately, it
Speaker:seems like everything that we do
Speaker:lands on some version of compute.
Speaker:And I'm just not sure if customers
Speaker:really care about compute as their
Speaker:value metric.
Speaker:So I'm trying to figure out what are
Speaker:we computing where there is value
Speaker:in a customer's eyes.
Speaker:And also, in reality,
Speaker:there are different customers within
Speaker:the company that have different
Speaker:value.
Speaker:The people who are end users view
Speaker:value very differently to the
Speaker:exec who's owning
Speaker:it, yeah.
Speaker:I think that's a great case for
Speaker:actually doing proper research
Speaker:when you can figure out what is, as
Speaker:you say, the value that you're
Speaker:bringing and what are also customers
Speaker:willing to pay.
Speaker:Because sometimes they'll see the
Speaker:value, but they may say, I just
Speaker:don't want to pay XYZ for this
Speaker:because it's not worth it for me.
Speaker:So really segmenting and really
Speaker:going for that.
Speaker:It's basically where your
Speaker:ICP segmentation becomes critical.
Speaker:And you can end up actually with a
Speaker:go-to-market motion, which is super,
Speaker:super niche.
Speaker:And I need this kind of IT exec
Speaker:with this kind of background who
Speaker:understands X, Y, and Z and has done
Speaker:some other thing and just
Speaker:sell to them and create all the
Speaker:motions to really go after them
Speaker:because then they become your
Speaker:champion and they can become the
Speaker:person that convinces everybody
Speaker:else, Hey, there is real value in
Speaker:this and can be, you know, they can
Speaker:defend you in front of everybody
Speaker:else. You just need to find them,
Speaker:the needle in the haystack.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It actually just happens with a lot
Speaker:of talking to them.
Speaker:And like really finding the why, uh,
Speaker:and I haven't found actually a
Speaker:shortcut for finding the
Speaker:way from data
Speaker:sets.
Speaker:I want to say I always find the way
Speaker:with talking to people.
Speaker:The real way that is obviously
Speaker:the big data set will help you
Speaker:quantify how big that why is,
Speaker:but really kind of going after
Speaker:the real humans behind the story,
Speaker:humans do matter even in the age of
Speaker:AI.
Speaker:We are rapidly
Speaker:running out of time, but nobody gets
Speaker:out of here without answering our
Speaker:final question, which is,
Speaker:if our listeners can only take
Speaker:one thing away from the episode
Speaker:today, what is it?
Speaker:I think the key thing
Speaker:that I would say is
Speaker:if you're scaling a
Speaker:company, start thinking about
Speaker:systems thinking and get
Speaker:the right people in your
Speaker:team to help you execute on
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Thank you, Vest, for joining us on
Speaker:the Operations Room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment, and
Speaker:we will see you next week.
