Raised in an unorthodox Mormon family, Ashley shares her journey of navigating faith, identity, and the pressures of patriarchal religious structures. In this conversation, she reflects on the tension of growing up with a non-Mormon father, the weight of expectations within her community, and the shame that often accompanied rigid doctrine. Now a therapist specialising in religious trauma, Ashley offers candid insight into the process of deconstructing harmful beliefs, reclaiming identity, and finding empowerment beyond the confines of Mormonism.

Who Is Ashley?

Ashley Buckner is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Utah and California. Specialising in a form of trauma therapy called Brainspotting that works to help people find more regulation in their nervous system. She has the additional speciality of religious trauma and faith transitions. Ashley was raised in the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints (aka: the Mormon Church) and later left in 2008.

Connect With Us

• Find out more about Ashley via her website - https://www.ashleybucknerlmft.com/about
• You can also connect over on Instagram

• You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
• To connect with Sam on Instagram – @anchoredcounsellingservices
• Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
• Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be aboriginal land.

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface. Welcome. Ashley, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me, Sam. I'm excited to be here.

I am actually very excited about this episode. I've been following you for a little while. I think you are probably one of my most favorite therapy slash religious trauma ex Mormon Instagrams.

I just think it's really cool, like, and also seem like a really normal human.

That is actually a really, really big compliment, Sam, so thank you. I like, I'm gonna let that one like, soak in because I don't give myself that credit, especially in the. The ex Mormon space.

I kind of feel like I'm not a good enough ex Mormon, which is kind of plays into. I never felt like a good enough Mormon, so it makes sense that I would feel that. So that is a really big compliment. Thank you.

Oh, you are so welcome. And I just, it's so. It's such a weird space where that sort of like, good, good version of us comes in.

Hey, I'm sure that will come up in, in the conversation more. But for context, where in the world are you at the moment for people who don't know you?

Yeah, so actually I'm currently. I. So I normally live in Cedar City, Utah, which is a little small town in southern Utah.

It's actually where I was born and raised, but I'm currently in Dublin, California. I'm here for a brain spotting training, which is the form of therapy I specialize in. And so, yeah, I'm in a hotel room and just excited to chat.

I actually went to college in California, so I lived in California for 12 years, so it feels really nice to just be here. It kind of feels like home. Even though I went to college in the south and Dublin's in the north, but same thing. It's just California.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Your brain spotting work was actually, I'm pretty sure how I found your Instagram in the first place, because I'm also a brain spotting therapist. And so I was like, it's so cool seeing other people work. Usually religious trauma therapists work with, you know, IFS or EMDR or something like that.

I was like, oh, my gosh, it's so cool to find another brain spotting therapist in this space. So I love that.

I didn't realize that. That's incredible. Oh, my gosh. Brain spotting is. So I have to just say brain spotting is what I'm really, really passionate about.

I, I love this method of healing so much, and it is what led me into the religious trauma space. But I just feel like if you're a brain spotting therapist, you get it some stuff.

Yes, absolutely. And I mean, I think from memory from some of your post, brain spotting was a pretty big part of your own healing as well.

So, like, I'm thinking we can have a chat about that later in the conversation as well.

Absolutely. I mean, brainspotting is hugely supportive.

Yeah.

To my own being. And yeah, I, I, that's why. That's also why I'm so passionate about.

It, you know, Amazing. So I like to start these episodes with a very broad, vague question, which is, where does your story start?

That is a very broad, vague question.

Yes.

I mean, I already. So I, I will say, I guess it started in Cedar City, Utah. That's where I was born. And I grew up in an unorthodox Mormon home, actually.

So my mom was a member of the church. And on my mom's side of the family, I have, like, Mormon pioneer ancestors.

Okay.

Meaning my, like, great great grandfather settled parts of southern Utah. They had multiple wives. So that's like my mom's side of the family.

And then my dad was not a member of the church, and he was, like, an Italian Catholic, so it was a very interesting mix. But.

And obviously, like, there's still a lot of similarities with the, like, patriarchy on both sides, but my mom was three months pregnant with me when she married my dad, and I'M the oldest in my family, so there's like also this layer of taboo and shame that I would say I came into the world with. So that's where my story started, is in Cedar City, Utah and I lived there for 18 years.

Yeah. Okay. Was that, I mean, was that sort of like mixed faith family confusing as a child or was it just, well, you knew well. Or both?

It was, I think it was both. And it's actually really fascinating.

So I just want to say to, to listeners, as I talk about a lot of this stuff, I am going to talk about it for my therapist brain and my own like deconstruction and healing because I have the language for it. So I did not necessarily really have the language language for it as a child. Right. Obviously.

But it was extremely confusing and especially in Utah and especially in Mormon culture. So a huge part of Mormon culture is like the men having the priesthood, being a worthy member of the church.

And if you don't have a worthy priesthood holder in your family, you are like immediately less than. So that's just like a collective energy. Cedar City, Utah is also a fairly small town. So it's not like a big city. There's no diversity.

Everyone's the same religion. Everybody knows everything. Everyone. Right.

Yeah.

So I have two younger brothers and it's interesting because as my brothers and I talk, we all have very different experiences growing up and, and in terms of our religion. Right. But I was the oldest, so I think I'm obviously naturally more obedient. Rule follower.

But I remember and I, I was young, I would have been like 5 years old because I remember the church building and Mormon churches organized so well that like depending on where you live, you go to a certain church. And so obviously we hadn't yet moved to another part of town.

But I remember sitting in, in either like a church meeting and just feeling that there was something less than. Like I was less than because my dad wasn't here, my dad wasn't worthy, you know, And I remember feeling that as a little tiny girl.

And it's interesting because now I will credit the diversity of my family as to being why I could step away. Like, it is why I was able to walk away from this religion.

But it was also something that was really challenging growing up because I wanted to be like everyone else. I mean. Right. We all want that, we want to belong. And I think obviously I didn't know at the time that I was just trying to fit in.

Yeah. I mean, what was that fitting in?

Like, you know, was it Hard or was there pressure to make friends with like, really devout Mormon families to sort of like, hyper hype that up a little bit?

Well, I think that like everyone. So interesting majority of people are Mormon. And so that is just your friend group. That's who you're around.

And I think an interesting part of my story is that When I was 10, my dad was actually baptized a member of the church. But I will say.

I actually will say that I don't think he was baptized because he genuinely believed he was baptized because of the pressure of the community. Because. Right. You're, You're. You go to church every Sunday and. And I think Mormon church does as well.

I'm sure a lot of churches do this well, but I only really ever grew up in Mormon church, where you just want to be a part of it. You. And when you're converting, you're, like, celebrated. It was like this very exciting time in my family's life.

And it's fascinating because my dad will now say that he got baptized for me. I don't remember that.

Like, I don't remember asking and pushing that on him, but I could see how that would have been really important to me as a little girl, if that makes sense.

How does that sit with you now, hearing that?

It's interesting. I think my dad and. My dad and I have been through a lot in our relationship, but I understand.

I have compassion and empathy because of, I think maybe so much of the work I do and just understanding religious trauma and just understanding Mormon religious trauma specifically. But I get that.

I get that's why he did it, you know, and to me, it tells me how much I wanted this and how much that is, like, taught you to want this, and this is the only way you're gonna be with your family for forever.

And so I, I think that at the time when it happened, I didn't realize how significant was until, you know, now looking back and understanding it from a different lens.

Yeah.

And that family unit in terms of like, reaching what most people would call heaven, but like the celestial kingdom, like, that's a real, like, pressure. Right. Because if one person is not in there, then the whole family is separated. Correct?

Correct. I believe you're correct. So I think this is where it gets really problem.

This is where it's really problematic for me because Mormon doctrine is interpreted differently by so many people depending on how it's taught. A lot of families believe that, and then a lot of families believe me. I think a lot of families believe that, like, say, if I am Not a member.

I won't be there, but the rest of my family will be. I just won't be with them.

So that's more of my understanding that if, like, like if my, if my dad would have never gotten baptized, my parents were not married in the temple, then we wouldn't all be in the highest level of heaven. But like say I had, then I would be there and they wouldn't be with them. So yes, it is like very much like separating families.

But I think that in my understanding that other doctrine of, well, if one person doesn't get baptized and everyone can't be together is actually just a twisted narration that some families have adopted to like coerce and encourage people to stay in line. Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when we look at both of those for little kids, they're both like really fear based doctrines, right?

Like, what was that like to internalize as a kid?

It's fascinating because I was a terrified child. Like I was so scared of everything. I was terrified of death.

Yeah.

I was terrified of people I didn't know. I was terrified of just like feeling things in my body. And it's fascinating because at the time I didn't, I, I didn't know that's what it was.

I thought. And our, and, and my parents unfortunately were young and they didn't know how to support my like, little self and my nervous system.

But now I'm like, I actually think religion played a huge component in that. How could I not be scared?

I'm going to a church that especially until I was 10 years old is telling me that I'm not going to be with my parents forever in heaven. Like that is so confusing and that is so complicated.

And it's interesting, Sam, I would say that's the most distressing things I see for many clients is that the way they interpreted this doctrine as children. Because I think majority of families there are orthodox families obviously that are checking all the boxes and following all the rules.

But most of us are very imperfect humans. Most of our families are diverse and complicated and most of our families are not going to meet that mold.

And so I think it just comes with this like, level of distress and, and pressure as a kid that we shouldn't carry. I shouldn't have been worrying about that at five years old. I should have been worrying about that at 10 years old.

I shouldn't have been like so worried about my dad getting baptized, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think, you know, I will talk about my story and I go like, you Know, I gave my life to Jesus at the ripe old, well informed developmental age of 12. And it's like, you know, kids don't have the, the ability to comprehend that stuff.

And you know, even in Pentecostal or evangelical Christianity, that idea of like, if you don't pray this prayer specifically, then you are going to be eternally separated from your family. Like anything fear based is just like an insane thing to expect anybody, even adults, but particularly kids, to, to understand at the time.

Could you recognize the fear at the time? Like, obviously not necessarily by name, but like, did you recognize that you were afraid as a kid?

Yeah, I knew I was scared. I don't know what I was scared of, but I, I was scared all the time. Like all the time.

I, I could pull, I can pull it up in my body still of being scared and just feeling off. And I've done, I've done, I've done brain spotting sessions where I've actually like relived some stuff at church.

And it's fascinating because I would have never connected, you know, my initial thing to that, but it goes all the way back to just being a little girl and, and sitting in those meetings where you have leaders talking to you and people talking to you and they're like spewing these things from the pulpit that I just don't think are developmentally appropriate for a child, you know?

Yeah. Actually, did you do a story or an Instagram reel about that recently? I feel like I have memories.

Yeah, I, I did, I did make a reel on it because I, I'm. Because I was like, this is insane.

Yeah.

You know, that's one of the biggest things that I tell a lot of clients is that the ways that we see religious trauma show up is not in the way that we expect it to. A lot of the time it can be like completely wild, like, and completely seemingly like not connected at all.

And yet they're totally in connected, interconnected. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I think one, I mean, I think one way that like I survive and so many people survive a high control religious setting is we just disconnect from our body and we stop listening to those things that are happening inside of us.

Right, Absolutely. Yeah. What changed in your family when dad got baptized at 10?

So not much actually, because my dad, like I said, was not a truer.

Yeah.

But I have a very specific memory of him praying one night my mom was gone and he was going to say a prayer and my middle brother started giggling like he thought it was funny because he never seen my dad pray. Right. Like, yeah. You know, and my dad got so upset. Like, so upset. Right. Because it is, like, so vulnerable to pray. And my.

And I was so distressed about that. I was. And I, like, my little brother have asked him about it. He doesn't remember. Neither of my little brothers remember, but I. I do. And I.

And I don't know if it was that moment, but nothing really changed. We, like, aside from, like, everyone was so happy that my dad was baptized.

And then my parents got married in the temple, in the Mormon Temple, the LDS Temple. I call him. I was allowed to call it Mormon growing up, and now you're not allowed to call it. So I go back and forth.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

Yeah.

But. So no one can go to these weddings unless they're worthy members of the church. And they have what's called temple recommendations.

When your parents get married after they've already been civilly married and they have children, there's a part of the temple ceremony that you can participate in as kids. So I do remember this. And we. My parents got married, and then we went into the ceiling room where we all go, like, kneel down and pray.

I don't remember. It was a very surreal experience.

I wouldn't, like, say it was necessarily traumatic, but you, like, walk into the sitting, you this setting, you see your parents, and there's, like, these people in the audience, which are, like, people from our community, and they're all, like, crying, and it's like this big, like, ceremonial thing. And so then you feel like you're supposed to cry. So I remember crying.

Yeah.

And that was, like. That was really, really fascinating. But I think what happened is it freaked my dad out.

The temple is very freaky, and the things that go on are very inappropriate. And I think so. I think he was done after that. And I don't know if you've ever watched the documentary. Documentary Keep Sweet Pray and Obey.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna probably get in a lot of trouble for saying this because the LDS Church and the FLDS Church, like, yeah, the LDS Church wants nothing to do with FLDS Church. But in that documentary where they're kind of like, the. The temple ceremony is kind of being discussed. It feels eerily similar to what happens in.

In the LDS Temple, except, like, the sexual abuse is not happening. Right. But I was like, this is so. This is so much the same. That's how I remember feeling in this environment. Right. It's just. It's fascinating.

So we did that, like, My parents got married in the temple, and you would think that we would have been this, like, pillar of the community, but we really. My parents really were. I would. When I was 14, we went on a cruise, and like, we went on a cruise with a bunch of people from the community.

And my parents were, like, drinking with other people. And so we. We. They very much were not abiding by the rules of the church.

And in a environment where almost like sameness is celebrated, like that conformity of everybody is the same, believes the same, does the same, doing different, I imagine would not have gone down well with certain people in that community.

Yeah, no. On that cruise, I was sitting next to another family who was very lds, and the dad looks at. We were like, out at you if you've been on a cruise.

You said at tables. Right. Like Camino tables at dinner. And I was at the table with this family. My parents were at another table.

And this Mormon man looks over and he points to my parents and he says, you never want to be like that about my own parents. To me, I was like, 14 years old. And it's interesting because I felt, like, ashamed of my parents, but also disgust at this man.

It's like just such a confusing, confusing thing to hold on to as a kid, you know, And I was. I was 14. But.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you have recognition of why he was saying that at the time, or did you just think he was being an.

I think he would. I think he was judging my parents.

Yeah.

Also. Also now looking back and understanding so much of people, I think he was jealous. I think he was, like, activated that he couldn't go be that.

You know, I think we. We are so quick to judge someone when they're hitting a mirror within ourselves. Right.

And I see this a lot for people in high con, in high control religion, and Mormonism specifically, is it's so much easier to make the people who are leaving the problem than it is to sit with. What are they stirring up in you?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Perhaps my parents represented a freedom to him. That's what I think. That's what I suspect.

Yeah. So in amongst all of this, like. Because obviously, you know, I like to ask the question because usually it typically changes for a lot of my guests.

So I like to mirror this question a little bit. But, you know, as a kid and as a young teenager, who was God to you?

Like, was that something that was just your family connection, or was that something that felt personal for you as a kid?

It's a good question. I think God, I Think God growing up was like the Mormon God and like Jesus and the images like that I saw of this person growing up.

I remember like praying a lot as a child and I remember telling God that I hated him when like something bad happened to me or anytime I felt an emotion or feeling that I wasn't quote unquote supposed to feel or frustrated, but that's who I think I would have envisioned that person to be as a kid.

Yeah. Did you feel like it was. Is it like common to have a personal relationship with God?

I, I believe so, yes. I mean, like, so I, I mean, I remember praying every night and saying, dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day.

Like, you know, talking to him about various things.

I will still find myself, like, if I can't sleep at night, I will like almost turn on my side and I will start saying that prayer like in my head and I'm like, whoa, whoa. And it, because it was like a coping skill, right?

Yeah, it's almost automatic, I think, sometimes to just start praying in, in different situations that you would have normally or used to do. It's. Yeah, it. Some of my clients go, why do I do that? And I go, well, why wouldn't you? In some ways.

But I mean, you sort of said that like you remember feeling really angry towards God. Was that something that you were allowed to feel or was that something that you then felt guilty for feeling?

Oh, absolutely felt guilty for.

Yeah, yeah.

No, definitely not allowed. Yeah. I don't know, I don't even know where that came from, but I remember doing it.

Like, I remember letting it out because I think growing up you're told like, this higher power is responsible for everything that's happening. And so when things were happening, I didn't, like, I was like mad.

Yeah.

You know, but it was only by myself, only in my room. No, like, no one ever heard me say that. That was a very private.

Okay.

Very private matter.

Okay. And so, I mean, I like to ask this of all of my, all of my guests who grew up and were socialized as female. Good old fashioned purity culture.

What was that like as a teenager?

That's a great question.

I think, you know, I think a really important part of my story personally is that when I was like three or four years old, I was sexually abused by an older uncle. He was probably like 11 or 12 years old. And so again, a lot of this understanding has come, like post my own therapy and deconstruction.

But now knowing the impact it had on me and then coupled with growing up in A purity culture like Mormonism. I think it was extremely distressing to my nervous system.

So I. I know for, like every sexual abuse survivor has just different symptoms and presentation. So for. For myself personally, I was very sexual early on, like, very sexually curious, I will say so after.

I remember being like 5, 6 years old, like, fascinated with, like, kissing on TV and like, love stories and things like that. So I was very sexually curious. And then by the time I hit puberty and everything got fully turned on, I was. All I wanted to do was kiss boys.

I wanted to do inappropriate things with boys. Like, I was so curious. And I now know.

I now know that that was sexual, like age appropriate sexual development and partly, partly, also probably having my sex parts turn on at an early age because of just like the invasion of what happened. But it was so incredibly distressing, Sam. I mean, to the point that I think I had purity culture shame all the way up until my early 20s.

But what would happen is I would, like, get myself into situations with the opposite sex where I think sometimes I wanted to do the things that I wanted, like, whether that be like, touching or whatever. And then I would feel intense amounts of shame for it. So I would just, like, cycle.

And my freshman year of high school, like, prior to my freshman year of high school, I only had let a boy touch my. My boobs. Hopefully I could say that on here. And that was obviously.

That was obviously distressing in and of itself because, like, I'm not supposed to do that, right? And then my freshman year, I dated this guy who was older. He was 17. He was 17 and I was 14. And fortunately, nothing sexual ever happened with him.

He was a very righteous Mormon male. He definitely groomed me and was like, talking about marrying me and all of those things, but he broke up with me and, like, broke my heart.

Well, then I kind of was like, free and dating and I had a boyfriend who wasn't Mormon, and we did things and. And not. Not intercourse. I hadn't had intercourse at that point.

But then I had a lot of friends who were lds, and my friends found out and they were like, you have to go to your bishop. You have to go confess the sin and repent, because what you did was bad, essentially. Right? And so I did.

At 15 years old, I confessed to my bishop, who was my childhood friend's dad. He was also my neighbor. I had spent time at his house. I still to this day run into him. Town I live in, he's like, friends with my husband.

Like, it is so fucking complicated and complex. Like, like that's a recipe for trauma, right?

Anyway, so I go and talk to this man who I will say is a really good man and he had no intention of harming me. Like he was just doing what he was supposed to do, right? And I actually have read horrific stories of bishop interviews and invasive questions.

Mine was not like that. Whatever, whatsoever. I confessed, I told him what I did.

Obviously he gave me a punishment, which was that I couldn't take the sacrament in church for two weeks and I had to read certain scriptures or whatever and that was it. I don't remember really anything else from the meeting. I do remember the first sacrament.

When I passed on the sacrament and didn't take it and my dad looked at me and he was like, what did you do? Yes.

I mean that just to me, recipe for like public humiliation.

That's what it was. I was flooded with. And, and this is what I did. I said, I will never ever confess ever again. So what was the consequence of that?

I never talked about anything sexual with anyone ever again. And I needed to be, I needed to be talking with people. I needed to feel safe, to come forward, to share. Hey, this is what's happening.

I, I keep doing this and I don't want to keep doing this, but I, I do want to keep doing this. Right? It is just like so much confusion that I just shoved in and didn't tell anyone. And I think on the surface I looked like I had it all together.

If you went to high school with me, people would tell you that. I think even now to this day, like I would represent that. But it was, it was really brutal.

And then my fast forward to my senior year, that same 17 year old boy who had kind of groomed me, he was on his mission at the time and he, we found, I had found out he had been writing to girl, he'd been writing me and another girl and he'd been sending us the same like letters. And so we called him out like, hey, you can't do that. That's like gross. And I will never forget the email he sent me. He basically slut shamed me.

In the email, he like listed all the men I'd supposedly had sex with, all the boys that I had sex with, and that he couldn't believe I was not pregnant and I should be ashamed of myself. And I was 17 and I remember reading the email and like again, another flood of shame, another wave of shame of just like hating myself so bad.

And when I think about that email now, and fortunately I had enough Protective factors. But it, like, that's the type of email people take their own lives over. Yeah. You know.

Yeah.

So purity culture was really rough. And I would say it's the thing that impacted me the most from growing up in Mormon.

And then it proceeded into college and then even after I had babies, I've had some sexual trauma related to purity culture show up too.

Yeah, I think that's the biggest one of.

I mean, there's a lot of purity culture myths, but one of the myths is that it just like once you actually like, get married or you start having sex or, you know, you leave the beliefs behind that somehow it just magically goes away, which is like the, like the biggest load of, like I was saying to a couple of people who work in this space as well the other day that, like, still to this day, like, there is absolutely no chance of me using a tampon. Like, it is just like, absolutely not happening.

And so it's like things like that, that people don't understand, like, impact people's bodies, particularly women's bodies, in. In regards to purity culture that last far longer than, you know, the first, like, you know, six years of. Of teenagehood or whatever it is.

But I mean, you sort of said that purity culture was pretty rough. And I feel like that might be a pretty palatable way of describing it based on what you just said, because it sounds awful.

It was. And I grew up in a small town too, so, like, rumors flew. People talked about you.

Like very, very, very, like Scarlet Lettery, you know, I mean, I was so. Wish I could go back and just like, be right there with teenage me, with.

With the knowledge and insight I have now because she deserves so much better. But she didn't see it, you know?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what, like, what did you feel like that was at the time? Because I imagine you didn't have the language of shame.

Like, what did you feel like at the time?

I mean, I literally just hated myself, Sam. Like, that's. That's all I can say. And it's interesting because I think that that thread of self hate is still one I am pulling the strings on.

But I think this is so real about religion, though, or like Mormonism in and of itself. When I was doing. When I was living all of this. Right. 17 years old, I never once blamed the church. Never once. I never was like, they're the problem.

These messages are the problem. Do you know who I blamed? I blamed myself. I'm the problem. There's something a matter with me. Why can't I follow these rules.

Why am I not the good Mormon girl? Why am I curious? Why do I want to do bad things? And I, I, I mean, that's how I was. I'm a very curious human being, and I'm a very open human being.

So I remember in high school being so curious about the boys that drank on the weekends. I'm like, oh, why aren't they doing that? Like, I wanted to know. That kind of sounds fun. Right? But that's a no, no, you can't do that. You know?

And so it was this constant, like, who was the problem? I was a problem.

Yeah.

I never once blamed the religion, ever.

Yeah.

I don't think I fully understood the way the religion impacted me until literally the last, like, six, seven years.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it is. You are so conditioned to not blame them, though, right? Like, it is never the church's fault.

So I think it's one of the, you know, the biggest.

Like, laying the responsibility where it lies is such a powerful moment, but it is the moment, I think, that takes sometimes the longest because you are just so conditioned to not blame the church. It's not the church's fault. Never is.

Right. No, I just wanted to be like them. Right. Like, I just wanted. I just wanted to be like them.

And now I can say, like, I am so grateful that I didn't follow that path.

Like, I'm so grateful I didn't follow that path because I very easily could have, but fortunately I didn't, unlike so many people I work with, so many people never had the choices that I had. And I know I'm so grateful for my choices and opportunities.

Yeah.

How did that shame as a young person impact your ability to form relationships with people, even just, like, friendships or connect with people in your family, that sort of thing? Oh.

I mean, I'm thinking about my family relationships, and I feel like my family in general has a lot of shame, not even related to the church. But I would say I was very trepidatious. Like, I don't, I didn't have a large group of friends, and I moved away to college when I was 18.

Fortunately, I left Utah and moved to California. And it took me a long time to make friends, and I didn't have a huge friend group at a small group of friends.

But I think I was always, always, constantly worried, like, they're judging me. Like, I would actually push people away more than they would actually do anything to be pushed away.

But I think I was always scared of their judgment or perception of me when really the only one judging me was me. Right. And, and I think it definitely, like impacted. I mean, I had such low self worth and I had decided that the only way I was worthy. Right.

Is if a man loved me or wanted me or needed me or wanted sex for me. Right. So that had been like conditioned from a very young age.

And then I think when I left Mormonism at 20, I didn't, I still hadn't like unpacked any of this, so I was still getting myself in very, like precarious situations with men and I was hating myself less, but I was still hating myself. So. Yeah, again. Right. Just because you leave doesn't mean that it changes.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what was. I mean, there's a two year window, it sounds like, between when you went to college and when you decided to leave Mormonism.

What happened in that two years to get to that point?

Yeah, so that's a very good question. So I left Cedar City when I was 18. I actually didn't have a choice. My parents said I had to move away for college anywhere, and I will forever.

Is that common?

Like I would expect, like, you know.

I don't think that's, that's not like in Utah. It's kind of like the expectation is you get married. Yeah. And so, yeah, I was not. What I did was not the norm.

No.

Right.

Okay.

Because I'm thinking like, you know, it's not even the norm for, I think, you know, girls in high control religion to even go to college, let alone to go away to college where, like, there's so many unknown factors.

And so that's why, that's why I tell you, Sam, like my unorthodox family, I will credit them forever.

They.

I didn't grow up with like high control modesty. Like I could wear whatever I wanted. I never felt shamed for the clothes I wore. Right. Whereas I know so many people did.

I mean, I, I had a very diverse family. I had a ton of family that weren't lds who I had seen, like I'd already, I'd seen the world outside of Utah very well before I turned 18.

So yeah, I didn't have a choice. I had to move out of Utah or I had to move out of Cedar City. I didn't have to move out of Utah.

I had to move away for college for at least one, one year. And I grew up going to Southern California. My grandma lived in Southern California. My dad's mom, who was, who was, is, was and is. She's not Mormon.

And I had an. An uncle who had a house there. So I, like, loved Southern California. My aunt was like, you should apply to schools here. So I did.

And I got into a little college called Loyola Marymount University on the coast of California in Los Angeles. And I moved to Los Angeles, and I was 18. So from small town Utah to Los Angeles, fortunately, I was on a really small campus.

But it was interesting because, I mean, you're, you know, like 18 years old, you're trying to figure out your identity. And my entire identity had been molded by this community in which I grew up. And I just. I made really good friends. And they just loved me, Sam.

They like, they loved that I was, like, Mormon, but they loved that I didn't follow the rules. And they loved, like, they just love me for who I was. And I'm a fun. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a girls girl. I'm a fun. I'm fun. I like to get ready.

I like to hang out. Like, you know, I just. It's just who I am. And so I kind of just became friends with some really good people.

But the problem was I would make these choices on the weekends, and I'd, like, hate myself because I wasn't following the rules of church. So I was still trying. It was like, I was like, half in, half out.

I had a boyfriend who I had met my freshman year of college and went home to Cedar City, and I met him at a party, and I knew he was Mormon, but I was like, oh, he's at this party, he's drinking. Like, it's okay. Like, I can date him. Yeah, that was my. That was my rubric for dating. Really, really great, right?

Loose kind of moment.

And there should have been some red flags. And he's like, I will say, like, he is a really great guy. Like, yeah, I can't think bad about him. But first of all, I was 18 years old.

He would have been like 21, 22, because he had gone on a mission. And just we, like, we were like, I was in no place to get married.

But that's obviously, like, as soon as you start dating someone, that's what you start talking about, because it's so much in the culture there. Mind you, I live in Los Angeles. I'm going to college, right?

And because the town and I live in is so small, the other guy from high school that had slut shamed me was friends with this guy and was like, you, I can't date her. She's like, slutty and then he broke up with me. I mean, it was like a whole thing. But then we kept kind of dating.

Anyways, long story short, the summer of my freshman year, I was gonna come home and get married, Sam. Like, I was going to come home and get married to this kid. And I. My friends were like, ash, you cannot do that. People don't do that in real life.

Like, that's not how the real world works. I tell you, I have great friends.

Like, actually, my best friend, one of my best friends, he married my husband and I. I remember we were on a run specifically, and he stopped and he was like, this is crazy. You are not going home and you are not getting married. And I will forever be thankful for that.

I actually really like people who are upfront with me and tell me how they feel because I don't like to read both, like, the passiveness and the not, like, clear and direct. So anyways, I also had an aunt. My. My aunt, who I'm really close with as well, who's.

Who I had grown up with, who's not LDS was like, you're not going home and doing that. That is stupid. My parents didn't want me to do it, so I didn't come home. But I kept dating this guy.

So I, like, was like kind of still having these ties. And the interesting part about this is he wanted to do everything sexually but have sex. And I was like, this doesn't make sense to me.

Like, we're doing all the things. I actually prefer to have sex than to do some of this other weird shit. So, like, we were always kind of in conflict about that. And so then he did.

We did end up having sex. And I think then he really felt like. Felt like he had to marry me, right? And he'd given that away to me or whatever.

And I was really not in a good spot to be in having a boyfriend. I'm just gonna be straight up about that. I'm not gonna say that I. I did not treat him well in the sense I didn't have any respect for myself.

Do you think I had a respect for this relationship? Right. You know, like, it was. It was a really toxic situation.

Meanwhile, Prop 8 is happening in California when they're voting to, like, the church is supporting, you know, Prop A and. And not for gay marriage. And I have a girl in my class and she has two dads, and I'm like, listening to her talk. I'm so invested in that.

So there's just so much happening. This relationship's happening. Prop 8 is happening. And then I remember getting upset with him about it.

Like, how can we, how, like, how can we be a part of this church? I don't understand. And then the ward there, the church that I was like, in, in LA, emailed me to have a celebration for Prop 8.

Not passing or whatever it was, whatever the decision was. And I was so disgusted, Sam. I could not imagine going to celebrate this girl in my classes. Like, pain. I just couldn't, I, I, I couldn't imagine.

And so that was, that was it for me. And I did not go back to church after that day.

Yeah. Up until that point, what was it like trying to almost, like, straddle and live in two worlds? Because, like, exhausting, I know.

Like, for me, trying to be, like, queer and straight and like. No, it's hard.

I, I don't think I realized it at the time, obviously, but, like, looking back at myself in college and what I was going through in my mental health and my choices and decisions and just everything, I was a wreck. I was a complete wreck.

And again, I don't even think my college friends would tell you I was a wreck, though, because I was just so good at being perfect and looking put together and having my shit together and checking all the boxes. But internally, I was really struggling, I think, I think that was when I, I felt the most oppressed and the.

Probably the closest I would have ever said to, like, not wanting to be alive, but all just, you know, that combination of shame and, and wanting to be a part of something, but not wanting to be part of something at all. I just don't think I knew how to break free, you know?

Yeah.

I think Prop 8 gave me permission to. I think Prop 8 was like, yep, you, you can be done now. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Do you feel like that external permission was something that you were waiting for in a, like, subconsciously?

I don't know. Perhaps. Perhaps I just need them to do something egregious so I could be like you.

You can't make sense of it. Like that part where you go, actually, I can't play those mental gymnastics anymore.

Yeah. Because I wasn't following any of the rules. Like, let's be honest, not following any of the rules.

I had read the entire Book of Mormon, but I was like, I don't really. Like, I just think this is a book. Like, I didn't even have. Like, I didn't even ever believe it. I, I can't tell. I did.

I bear my testimony that I believed it at times growing up. Yes. But I cannot say to you that I ever really believed it. I wanted to. I desperately wanted to.

I wanted to feel what I thought everyone else had around me, but I don't actually think I ever did.

Yeah. And that's. I think some people would think, oh, well, that's really easy to exist in that space.

Like, not really believing it, but actually, that's really hard. Right. Like, to be so desperately wanting the thing that you are supposed to be able to.

To have and to want is really, really painful and automatically just makes you feel like there's something wrong with you, I would assume.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the. The glimmer of, like, light and hope came from my friends in California. And it's interesting because I.

At the time, I thought I was, like, a wreck in college, and in. In doing so much inner work.

I actually, like, there's so much light in that time because I had all of these people who just loved me, like, they truly loved me unconditionally. It was the first time in my entire life I had ever felt that, because I didn't feel that in my home.

I didn't feel that in my community or my church or even with my friends in my hometown. Right. But with these people, I mean, there's my. My closest, dearest friends to this day. They just loved me, like, unconditionally.

I have my best friend, who was my roommate all four years of college, who saw me through all of this. I could just send her a text about anything, and I just know that it won't matter. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, in a space of, like, conditions and rules and conditional belonging and love, I imagine that would have felt intoxicating.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. Yeah.

So true.

Yeah. So I think there is this, like, opinion in people who.

I mean, I hear this a lot in people who don't necessarily understand the gravity of religious trauma. But from the moment where you were like, actually, I'm done with this, I think there is this belief that. Great, like, you're good to go now. Right.

It doesn't quite work.

Right.

Like that, though. So what was that like for you?

Because that period of time can be just as destabilizing and disorienting as the times while you are trying to straddle both worlds. Right.

Yeah. It's actually really, really interesting, Sam, because I don't know if maybe I did some of this when I was, like, 18 to 20 already.

If I'd already kind of been in that really destabilizing place, because when I was done, I was done. And I did not miss Mormonism whatsoever. And I'm not saying. Can I see its impact on my choices and my decisions that I made. Absolutely.

But it was not in the forefront of my mind. I didn't. I didn't miss my faith because I didn't have a faith, if I'm being quite honest with you.

Yeah.

And I was like, I am never going to think about this religion ever again. And I genuinely did not until I moved back to Utah. And it's like one of those things, Right. I think because I was in California, because I had no.

No one in my immediate support group was Mormon. My parents were no longer Mormon at the time. My brothers weren't. Like, I had no. Mormonism had no influence on me whatsoever. So I just got to.

I think that it was suppressed in my nervous system. I know it was, but I didn't need to. I wasn't activated by it, you know. Yeah, consciously.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what did that decade look like and feel like for you?

You know, were you able to feel a sense of freedom and liberation that you hadn't before?

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. I like the best. Some of the best time in my life, I. I got into kind of an. Now, in hindsight, I'm like, oh, I know.

I got in this abusive relationship, and my first guy that I dated that wasn't Mormon, he was. It was not a healthy relationship. And at the time, I was like, why did I get in this relationship? And I'm like, oh, no. I know, but.

But it was still so cool to date someone who was not Mormon, who had like a. A family that wasn't a part of this high control group. So I dated him, like, the end of my.

End of college, beginning of grad school, but then we broke up, and that was my first year of grad school, and I lived in San Diego. I had moved to San Diego, and I read the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown, and I, like, finally had the language for shame.

I never been able to name shame before. I read that book, had no idea what shame was until I read that book. And I was like, oh, this is what I had been going through.

And I think I almost decided at that time, like, no more. You're not going to shame yourself anymore. And so I just started being really vulnerable and authentic. And I actually wrote a blog.

I kind of just forgot about it until this moment. Like, I called it like 52 leaves. And every week I did something new for. To get out of my comfort zone.

And it turned out to be I actually, I'm like, I need to go look this up. I could probably on the Internet somewhere, but I would turn a new leaf and do something new every single week and get out of my comfort zone.

I went out to a bar. I, at this point, I felt no guilt for going to bars. I mean, I was living my best life, Sam. I was like, free.

I was experiencing my 20s, how most every single 20 year old should experience their 20s, right? But my girlfriends at the time, my grad school girlfriends were like, we need to go to this, we need to go out to this bar.

And I was like, well, I don't really. I'd moved all day and I was like, fine, it's our last time. It's our last hurrah. Went to this bar. My.

My husband came up to me because another guy was talking to me and he was like, you look like you need to be saved. And I was like, by you. Yes, of course. Right. So, like, pull. We start talking and then he tells me he's 22. Mind you, I'm 24.

And I'm like, this is going nowhere. You are so young. Had the night of my life. And now here we've been married. We've been together 13 years, married nine.

But like, I don't think I could have ever felt open and curious to that relationship had the past year not happened. You know, of like, just really diving into my own soul and facing my own demons. And it's funny because you would think I would have faced Mormonism.

But remember, I didn't blame Mormonism. I blamed myself. Right. So the relationship I had to rebuild was with myself. And I think that was a really big gift for me.

I didn't, I didn't have to deconstruct a religion because I don't think I ever really believed it, which is, I know, super unique. I don't, I know a lot of people's faith Deconstruction does not look like this.

Yeah, but I think there is a lot of people from, you know, that I've talked to on the podcast, but also just like people I connect with, you know, on good old fashioned Instagram and things like that, that thought that it was this devout faith, but actually upon deconstructing it found that actually there was no gravity to that. There was no, there was no depth to that.

And so I think a lot of people are realizing as well that potentially what they thought was this faith was not. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's also not.

And so, you know, that's what I love about this podcast, is because it will speak to someone whose experience was similar. And not everybody has that devout faith, personal relationship with God sort of story. So.

But I do want to ask, moving into, like, for you starting to get to know your now husband, where did you see all of the, like, the sexual purity culture trauma pop up and rear its head in that space? Because that's just complicated, right?

Yeah. You know, it's so like I said, I said earlier, I've always been a very sexual being. I, I'm a very sexual person.

And my husband was the first person that I had ever been honest with about my sexual abuse, but also my sexual history. Right. And he, I mean, he's just such an incredible man.

I will tell you, like our, like, second, like, I knew that I was in love with him when he played me. I remember when Macklemore dropped Same Love and he, my husband played that song for me and I was like, oh my gosh, we're good, we're good.

But we'd only been dating maybe like three weeks or something. I don't know. I need to look up the release date.

But it's, it's so fascinating because we, I never had any sexual issues with him in our, in the time we were dating before we got married. I think again, it was like I was finally allowed to be free and I could explore all of these things with him.

My husband's also very sexual, so we were very compatible in that way. But it was a very safe relationship, Right.

There was so much safety and there was no judgment and there was no criticism and there was no expectations and it was just, it was very loving. So I had this ability to be free and to own my sexuality in a way I never had before. And it stayed like that for a very long time until we had kids.

And I think, you know what often happens, right? So after women give birth, if they have obviously any Type of trauma. But if you have sexual trauma specifically, it can get reignited. Right.

That the nervous system remembers, it knows.

And so after giving birth, I had some very interesting things kind of come up in the sense of I would get super activated at all if my husband asked for sex, wanted sex, like any type of sexual things. And I, I, it was, it was like almost I became very controlling about it. I became very rigid and not.

And I still, then I still have these moments of being hypersexual. Right. And it wasn't until brain spotting and doing some internal work and I had had a second baby at this point.

Yeah.

And I went through some pretty significant postpartum with him, but that I started to realize, oh my gosh, some of this is my own sexual trauma, but some of this is like purity culture trauma. And I had this insight one day and it, I swear I had it about a year ago and it has shifted everything.

I had this insight that my husband didn't grow up in a high control, purity culture. So he has none of that conditioning, none of that programming.

So him wanting to have sex or like being sexual, one doesn't mean he expects it from me. But that, like, that's just him expressing himself.

And I had this insight of, like, that is so activating to me because I don't feel like I can do that. I was never allowed to be a sexual being. I was never allowed to be like, hey, can you get me off right now? Right. Like, that was a huge no. No.

Masturbation was a huge no, no. Like all of this stuff. And it was so interesting and I couldn't make sense of it. I'm like, why is this coming up now?

Like, I just had like a decade of sexual freedom now. You know, like, why can't I? And I, and I've had to, like, reconcile. I've had to, I've had a lot of grief come up with that too.

Like, I, this never happened for, you know, 10, 11 years. And now here it is.

And it's been really healing though, because now I have no activation at all when he asked for it, because I know I'm like, oh, well, I could. I, yeah, you're sexual. I'm not really feeling sexual. It's fine. And like, then I can ask for it and it's been really cool.

But I would say it's wild how it still shows up. Like, how, you know.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I love, and I almost want you to repeat it again for people who don't think that, like, you can heal from Purity, culture, and sexual trauma in the words that you said, which is that you don't have any activation.

I don't. I literally don't have activation about my own sexual trauma and my own, like, stuff.

Yeah.

But when it comes to my partner and him asking for sex, I have. I, I. When I tell you, it would spin me up, Sam. And, like, we would get. We would get in a huge fight, and he. He then stopped asking. I, like, poor guy.

Bless his heart. Like, he was just trying to be a good partner. And I've apologized. I was like, I've said, like, I'm so sorry, honey.

I had no idea that what was underneath it. Had no idea why I was getting so mad at you. And it was. It was me. It was my own shame. It was my own dysregulation. And.

And that's been so empowering, too, to be like, this has nothing to do with you. You're a great man. And you're. You're allowed to want sex. Like, you are allowed to want it. That doesn't mean I have to give you it.

But you are allowed to want it, right?

Absolutely.

Oh, am I? It's been really freeing. It's been really fun, too, because I think.

I think, like, while I had that time with him that was very safe and very free, I think there was still all this stuff for depressed. And so now I'm like, that was, like, that was fun, but this is next level.

Yeah. I mean, my instinct is to. Is to, like, almost ask what might feel like a really inappropriate question, which is, I imagine the sex is wildly better.

Like, wildly. Like, I mean. I mean, and obviously, I've had the same partner for 13 years, so we really know each other's bodies. But, I mean, I'm 37.

I, like, I'm like, my hormones are not what they used to be, but damn, the sex is so good. It is so good, and I feel no shame. And you know what else I like, we, My husband and I can talk about, like, sexual fantasies.

We can talk about all types of things. Like, I have no fear of him cheating.

I have no, like, I have no insecurities about him thinking another woman is attractive or me thinking another male is attractive or me thinking another woman's attractive. Right. Like, it's just this open curiosity and love that just really fuels your sex life to be incredible.

Yeah. Secure attachment is nice, right?

Oh, my God, yes. And I feel like it's taken so long to get there, you know?

Oh, okay. I want to ask about a sort of, like, A dual question of like, what was it like to get your records removed?

Because I know for, for some people that can be like a really big moment and other people it's just ticking a box. But also, when did you start blaming the Mormon church? And what was that?

Like, when did I start blaming them?

No, when? Yeah. And like how did that happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he asked me because obviously I'm from Utah. And if you're from Utah, everyone's like, oh, are you Mormon? You know, so everyone says. And so of course he asked me and I was like.

And I had told him I was raised Mormon. And his response he was like, you were raised Mormon? Like, like almost, almost like I can't like, whoa.

And I remember thinking in my head, oh my gosh, me being raised Mormon means I'm not gonna end up with this really good guy. And he's like such a good guy, you know? Yeah. And I was, I, I was. But I don't believe it. I haven't practiced it, whatever.

So I don't know if that was kind of like, oh, I really want to cut ties with it. But I was also a therapist. I had just become a therapist. I was working with at risk youth in San Diego.

And like the Mormon church drops new rules twice a year in their conferences. And there had just said another thing had come out for same sex couples and their kids. It is another marginalization.

And so I decided to take steps to remove it. And it actually took me like six months because it was before you had to get things notarized. And they, the Mormon churches ran like a business.

So I submitted my letter and then based on my address in San Diego, they placed me with a bishop. So who would have been in charge of whose ward I would, would have been and whose church I would have been in.

And he emailed me and I'll never forget the email he sent me. He. Because it had my work signature on it.

And he said, I would imagine that someone in your position wouldn't find a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And I was so pissed. Like at this point I was like really social justicey. I was, I was a therapist. I worked with inner city kids in San Diego.

Like, you're not gonna with me, dude, if you think that I like care. And he kept calling me sister because that's what they do in the Mormon Church. And I would, I refused to call him bishop.

I would just say mister, Mister. And we went back and forth like probably six times. He asked me to come to his house for dinner.

I wouldn't, it's just like there's no respect for boundaries of like, I'm done, please grant me, please grant me. And then he finally did, he finally granted it for me and I was done. And again, I never thought about it until I moved back to Utah.

And it's so funny, I've now since the only repercussion I had, which wasn't a repercussion is my mom was a little weirded out. She just didn't understand why I'd have my records removed.

And my mom is the only person in my family that hasn't had our records, her records removed.

But at the time I think she still, I mean she does, she's, she's not like this at all now, but I think at the time she was still kind of reconciling it. But remember like my mom's family is Mormon pioneer lineage.

And my grandmom, my mom's mom, she doesn't, she doesn't practice it, she doesn't follow it, she doesn't follow any of the rules, but she still believes in it. She is, she still wants to be buried in her temple clothing because she thinks she's done it all. You know, like it's so, it's really in there.

Because it's like a Mormon baptism. They're like these adults talking to 8 year old, 8 year old kids about how if they sin again then they're going to have to go repent.

Like it's just, I mean this really harsh language. And I remember like looking around and thinking this is, it's not funny. But I'm like laughing because I was like, this is wild.

This is psychological and emotional abuse of these children.

That was like the first thought in my head, the, the language, the rhetoric, and I can't even give you a specific example, but it was just like the delivery, the way these adults were talking to the kids, you know.

Yeah.

And that kind of like got my wheels turning and I just started paying attention. I had my first son that year and I took time off work and I kind of went down a rabbit hole of sexual abuse cover ups in the Mormon Church.

And then that got really deep. And then I just like kind of tucked it away and just lived my life in Utah. And I had my second baby prior to my.

When I was nine months pregnant, my parents got. My dad had an affair. It came out my dad had been having an affair. My parents got a divorce. Mind you, they'd been married for 33 years.

So that was like a really tumultuous time in my life. I was not thinking about the Mormon Church at all. Right.

And I was seeing clients virtually in California and I was doing some like, other work, but I really only had a handful of Utah clients. And I got really severe postpartum depression after my second baby.

And that's also kind of how I found brain spotting because my really close friend, colleague had gotten trained in it and she's like, ash, you need to look into a brain spotting therapist. Because she knew I was really struggling. And so I found a brain spotting therapist.

This was like at the like August of 21, but I didn't start doing really real Brainspotting work until 22 because she was, she was like kind of new in brain spotting and she didn't know how stable I was. Right. So once I stabilized in January of 22, like I went on meds and everything and I got like, my meds kicked in pretty quickly.

So I did stabilize really quickly, thank fortunately and started to treat my symptoms. And I was like, whoa. I've done talk therapy on and off for 10 years. And then I did my first brain spotting session.

I was like, this is unlike anything I've ever done. Right. Just understanding sensations in my body. And then like two months later, I had the opportunity to do a brain spotting training myself.

And I'd been a talk therapist for 10 years. Right.

With this expertise and training, I'll open a practice in Cedar City. So I did open a practice, and that is when I started to blame the Mormon Church. It was that.

That was the moment where everything kind of was like, what the actual is going on here? Because I. There wasn't one client that I had on my caseload that was not impacted by the culture. And not all of them were members of the church, Sam.

Not all of them were, but because it's so dense in Utah, you can't escape it. And so it impacts everything. Right. And. And, you know, you're a brain spotting practitioner. I was a. Watching people relive trauma in front of me.

And because I'm so familiar with Mormon culture. Right. I'd be like, oh, that's. That's a. That's what it's like in sacrament meeting.

Oh, that's what it's like when your bishop asks you those inappropriate questions. Oh, that's what it's like when you go through the Mormon Temple.

Like, I was able to know what was coming up in the sessions because of my experience, and that's when I really started to blame the church.

Yeah.

I mean, what impact did that have on you to be able to start to shift the responsibility from this was always mine to carry to this was never mine to carry.

I. I think, you know, like, it's. It's so interesting because had I never moved back to Utah, I don't know if any of those things would have been activated within my face.

I don't know if I would have ever faced my own religious trauma had I not been confronted with it. Right. But I. I think it's so fascinating because it's allowed me to just understand so much, even my own sexual abuse.

Like, even to understand why the conditions that allowed that to happen and how. I'm not saying that was all on the church, but how it does have roots in Mormonism and Mormon history. Right. I.

This uncle is on my mom's side of the family. I'm. I find, I think it's highly likely he was abused. Like, Right. We can. We come from a corporate culture where sexual abuse has been normalized.

Right.

And so it's like just to even have that layer of understanding for my own self and then to know that purity culture in and of itself is a form of sexual abuse. It was just like, I think it was like this Last piece of freedom I didn't even know that I needed.

And then it's been so cool because I, I, I do believe that I was.

So far, I had done so much of my own healing and inner work that that's why, that's what allows me to show up for clients in the way that I do, because I'm not doing the work with them. Right.

Yeah.

And now I'm not. I wouldn't be who I am today without them.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't sound wild to me. It might sound wild to somebody listening, but, yeah, I can understand.

Like, I can't do my. I wouldn't be do. So what makes me so good at my job is that a client doesn't have to just, they don't have to explain anything.

They don't have to explain one thing, you know, and no, I didn't, like, live an orthodox experience. No, I never wore LDS garments. No. I never got married in the temple, but I knew so many people who did. I watched my mom wear her garments. Right.

Like, I know it. Yeah.

I mean, and a lot of the time, you know, I hear it time and again. Like, I'm so glad I don't need to explain that terminology. Like, I don't need to, you know, help you understand or educate you.

It's my biggest gripe in working with religious trauma is, like, clients not having to educate their therapists on that landscape in particular. Like, obviously not. You know, it's not about knowing everything, but it is not about expecting your clients to educate you as well.

But even just you knowing the language and, you know, would put people at ease.

You know, Mormon, like, Mormon culture has its own language as well, you know, as in comparison to, you know, evangelical Christianity or something like that.

So I imagine even just something as simple as that would make a huge difference in people just being able to, to sit with what they're, you know, navigating as opposed to having to teach you alongside of sitting with what they're navigating. So you mentioned feeling grounded in your, your spirituality and your identity.

And one of my favorite questions to ask towards the ends of, end of these interviews is where is your sense of spirituality now? Coming out of high control religion?

Yeah, it's such a. Such a good question.

It's so fascinating too, because I am, I'm the most spiritual I've ever been since moving back to Utah, which is so ironic and funny at the like, as I'm about to talk to you. But I, I've always been so, like right when I was still in college, I traveled, I studied abroad in Ireland.

And it was just like the immersion into the culture and like that was my first evidence that spirituality was so much bigger than religion and that I could feel connected to a higher power just in this culture, out in nature. And so I've always kind of grounded in that from that time on. Kind of like been open and curious.

But I will say in regulating my own nervous system especially and doing my own brain spotting work, I have such a sense of like something bigger than myself. I cannot explain it. I. I think also being a therapist, it's at an end.

I don't know, Sam, if this is your experience or not, but sometimes I'm like, why is everyone going through the same thing?

Oh my God. I'm like, why am I talking about the same thing this week? Yeah.

And it's like. And I. And the more I attune to that, I'm like, it's just collective. We are all collectively interconnected somehow. That I can't explain.

Yeah.

And I don't need to explain it. I don't. I think that's like for me, what's been so spiritual is. I'm okay with things being uncertain. I don't need an answer.

I. I know that there are things bigger than myself. I mean, in brain spotting, I've worked, I've brainspotted.

A lot of people have lost a loved ones and sometimes these loved ones come up in their brain spotting process and I feel it like it's. I can't explain it to you, but I feel the chill. Like whether that's just my nervous system and their nervous system jiving and there's energy.

It's just. They're unexplainable, beautiful moments where I feel so deeply connected to someone that's spiritual.

But spirituality for me has become like very simple. Spirituality is cuddling my kids in the morning. It's giving my husband a hug after work, it's sitting outside and like putting my feet.

I loved put my feet on hot cement, like, you know, just like in the sun.

I. I think that that's what shifted the most for me is like spirituality can be anywhere if we just like, allow it to be and we attune to it, you know, like this conversation, like having a deep, meaningful conversation with someone. And I think that has been the thing I've learned the most because I was always told this was the only way to be spiritual.

This is the only way to feel joy and connected and you have to have a relationship with Jesus or, you know, whatever it is. And I actually disagree with that wholeheartedly. I. I think that those things can be absolutely spiritual and meaningful for people.

I know that that's not spiritual and meaningful for me. You know, give me a beach and like the waves or let me go be at my, like, cabin that I grew up going to.

Like, those are really, really spiritual, powerful things for me. So I don't know if that answers. I think sometimes I'm like, people want me to tell. Tell them who my God is, and I just don't have one.

Like, I just know it's within me, you know, Like, I know that, that, that, like, spirituality is within me and I feel it and I can't always put it to words.

Yeah, absolutely, I think. And that's why I love asking the question.

Because the diversity of answers that I've gotten is so beautiful and is in essence the reason that I ask it in itself because spirituality or a connection to something, because for me, spirituality is just about connection either to someone or something or.

Or, you know, whatever it is, is so diverse and so unique to the individual that I think it's probably one of the most diverse answers that I've gotten from people in. In asking that question. And so I just think that that's in essence the reason also why I ask it.

So, yeah, I mean, I like to finish with some encouragement because people are obviously listening to this going. They might be relating, they might not be. They might be really far along in their journey. They might be listening.

This might be the first episode they've ever listened to of a podcast.

But I'm wondering if you can offer some encouragement for people who potentially are at the early stages of trying to work through that sexual impurity culture trauma.

The very first thing that comes up for me is, well, I guess there's a few things. Like, one, I just want to say keep going, because I think there's so many times you want to quit on your journey and to keep going.

But I know for me personally that, right, shame. I had lived with shame since I was like 3, 4 years old, so I had the opportunity multiple times to say what had happened and I never did.

I never felt safe enough. To us, I'd carry the shame for like 20, 20 years and maybe a little less. But, like, when I finally found a safe person to tell, and it was my.

It's my best friend. And when I finally told her, yeah, just like that little bit of release that I had was enough, you know?

Because shame, if shame stays inside of us, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger until we. Until we finally talk about it, right? Just a safe person. And not everyone's safe. And I know it's hard to find a. A safe person, and I totally.

I totally get that.

But I think that really starting to talk about it was the most powerful thing for me because I decided if I just shoved it down, right, I shoved it down far enough, it wouldn't have to come out. I also, I read the Courage to Heal, which is a very, very old book, but it outlines sexual trauma so masterfully.

And I think it was the first book I read where I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm. There's nothing wrong with me, right? Because I think. I think so much when you grow up, when you.

When you have sexual trauma and then you grow up in a purity culture that says all of these things make you in pure, you. You genuinely believe something's wrong with you.

So I think talking about it in safe spaces and informing yourself, getting like some good support systems in. In reading and books and community, right?

For other people who have maybe gone through it and to go really slow and you, you know, like, you're gonna fall down. Like, I. I still fall down. You're. You're gonna mess up. You're going to feel like it's not getting better and to let that be a part of the process.

Right. None of us are going like this straight uphill climb, and I don't know anyone who. Who does.

And I think that it's going to be super messy and it's going to be super bumpy.

But what I've learned the most is that those bumps and those darkest points, if I can, like, hold them, they're actually how I see the most light and love in myself. Yeah. You know, like. And don't do it alone.

You know, like, you don't have to, like, unpack and live in the darkness, but, like, it's not like holding space for the messy, I think, is how you get here.

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Thanks.

Thank you so much for joining me. I've loved this conversation.

I think you're one of my fun, most fun Guests usually that falls to like the gay men that I've had on the podcast who are just like the funnest humans.

But it's just like so nice, I think, talking to someone who, like, I don't, you know, we can have conversations about really heavy and hardship, but we don't need to like sit in the heavy and the hardness of that. And so I like being able to have conversations that show that we can talk about this stuff. But also it doesn't have to feel heavy either.

And laughter is healing as well. So.

Thank you.

I, I do, I do laugh a lot and I think sometimes, like maybe sometimes, sometimes it's out of context, but it's been really helpful for me and understanding and healing. And I also want to say, like, I have done so much intentional work to, to work through so much of this.

I still brain spot on a, like monthly, bi weekly basis because my nervous system needs it. I'm going, I'm going to a training. I've done so many trainings.

I'm super passionate about my own healing because I'm not, not going to ask a client to sit across from me and do it if I'm not doing it myself, you know, And I think that's what allows me to show up here with you. It's what allows me to show up on my social media.

It.

It also allows me to be real and raw and true and honest because it's not about like I, it's, it's. I'm really not here for anyone else besides like what I want to represent and like help people heal from. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I sort of like to hop back to the beginning of the episode where I was like, I love you, Instagram.

But I think the authenticity that comes out of the Instagram is the thing, like you can.

There's a lot of great information out there and there's a lot of great accounts, but it doesn't mean that you connect with the human behind the account. You just like the information that they give out.

And so I think the authenticity and the like I said at the beginning, like, you're just like a real human behind the screen shows through those posts. So if people haven't seen it, what I mean, it will all be in the show notes, but so people don't need to necessarily go there.

What is your Instagram handle?

My Instagram handle is Ashley Bcore therapy. And I want to preface that I was not, I did not, I was not a content creator.

And it's been a journey and I have, I've stumbled a lot along the way, but I, I, I really, I, I'm going to cherish that compliment because my goal and hope is always to be my authentic self. And sometimes that means I'm really messy.

Yeah.

You know, still great.

We love the mess. Well, I love the mess.

Well, I really appreciate it because I'm very messy. I'm a little out. Like, I'm a little, I do push, like, I push the lines. I, you know, I'm, Yeah, I get a lot of criticism for it.

And I honestly am not just a, I think one of my really good friends who's a therapist, she's like, you're just not afraid to say it how it is. I'm like, because that's how we got here. Right. Nobody's ever said it how it was.

I certainly thought it growing up in the church, like, this is kind of weird, right?

Yep.

But we never let. Weird was just normalized by the adults in your life. And I, I've really started to embrace that.

If I would have had someone like me when I was younger, if so, social media would have been a thing and I would have been able to see this, I don't think I would have suffered to the degree that I suffered. Sam.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the, you know, for all of social media's faults and, and issues, and there is a long list of those.

There is also the power inside.

Seeing someone mirror something to you on a screen in a real way that, you know, feels like it speaks directly to you in a non like, spiritual, like religious, like divine moment, but just in like a human connection kind of way. So I love that and thank you again for joining me and sharing so vulnerably and openly.

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor just to chat with you and be on this podcast, so thank you. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time. Keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.