Caleb Callahan, President of Valmark Financial Group, discusses his journey in the financial services industry and the importance of biblically responsible investing. He shares how he got started in finance and the role of stewardship in managing money.

Caleb also talks about the Valmark Global Gift Fund, a donor-advised fund that donates 10% of the company's profits to charities and ministries. He emphasizes the importance of generosity and being led by the Holy Spirit in financial decisions. Caleb addresses the misconception that biblically responsible investing leads to lower performance and highlights the need to prioritize values over financial returns. Caleb Callahan discusses the importance of aligning work with the Kingdom mandate and how doing things God's way can lead to success in business. He emphasizes the need to prioritize wisdom, integrity, and morals over profit in the financial services industry.

Caleb also highlights the significance of living out one's faith in the workplace and the impact it can have on others. He encourages the recruitment and engagement of young people, particularly those who love Jesus, into the financial services profession.

Takeaways

Stewardship is about managing money for the King and seeking His guidance on how to use it.

Biblically responsible investing involves aligning investments with Kingdom principles and

considering the impact on God's kingdom.

Generosity and giving are essential aspects of stewardship and should be prioritized in financial decisions.

The Valmark Global Gift Fund donates 10% of the company's profits to charities and ministries, supporting widows, orphans, Christian education, evangelism, and more.

Biblically responsible investing does not necessarily lead to lower performance, and there is empirical data to support this.

The focus should not solely be on financial returns but on aligning investments with values and principles.

Being led by the Holy Spirit and seeking God's guidance in financial decisions is crucial.

The impact of biblically responsible investing can have a ripple effect, positively influencing lives beyond the initial donation. Aligning work with the Kingdom mandate can lead to success in business.

Prioritize wisdom, integrity, and morals over profit in the financial services industry.

Living out one's faith in the workplace can have a positive impact on others.

Recruiting and engaging young people, especially those who love Jesus, into the financial services profession is important.

Welcome to the Investing with Integrity podcast. My name is Jeff Talarico. I am your host. And today we have the honor and the privilege of inviting Caleb Callahan onto the show today. In his professional life, Caleb is a principal and the president of Valmark Financial Group. It's the parent company of the Valmark family of companies. Valmark offers full service financial solutions within the broker dealer, investment advisory, and the insurance industries. Caleb's also the chairman of the Valmark global gift fund. It's the charitable arm of the company that he serves, and they serve organizations in need throughout the U.S. and around the world, and we're going to talk a little bit more about that in just a little while. Caleb also holds a BSBA in finance with a minor in economics. He's a certified financial planner, a certified kingdom advisor, he's an author, a speaker, and a thought leader in the financial services industry. Caleb's contributions include providing expert testimony to the United States Congress, to the Department of Labor and the National Association of Insurance Commissioners. He's had speaking engagements, which include the American Bar Association, the Association of Advanced Life Underwriting, the National Association of Insurance and Financial Advisors, and the Million Dollar Roundtable, among others. Now, in his personal life, he serves as an elder at his church. He's been married for 19 years, and he is the father of three kids, which he believes is his greatest achievement.

Caleb, welcome to the show. We're so glad you're here with us today.

Ah Jeff, it's a privilege to be here. Those last things you said are the most important. My mom must have sent you over my bio for the first half.

You know, I was wondering where it came from, but you know, that's moms are proud and we're good. We're really glad of that. So, all right, let's get into this today. The first thing we want to know is something interesting about yourself that most people might not know.

Okay. Well, here's why I don't know if this is interesting, but I am actually more deeply introverted than people realize. I'm elder at my church. I teach a fair amount there and president of our company and out front a lot, but I am more naturally comfortable behind the scenes and kind of living life in my own little space, getting connected to the Lord and nature and being alone.

Recharging my battery so I think people who know me that's probably not a surprise But people who don't when I share that they're like, oh no You like to get up there and be on the stage and I really don't I like Enjoying the birds for a walk in the woods, man. That's my thing

Welcome to my world, Caleb. People don't understand that about me either. And interestingly enough, we've had several other guests on the podcast that are in positions like ours, that run companies, that are serving God in these various ways, and we have that same. We want to just be able to get back to self and to reflect in and just allow God's beauty and what's around us to overtake us. And some people just don't understand that.

Hahaha

I got those verses highlighted in my Bible when Jesus withdraws. He goes off to pray, spend time alone. I'm like, yeah, see? Being like Jesus.

There you go. That's a good thing to have.

All right, so let's talk a little bit about this. Let's get all the technical stuff out of the way. How did you get started in the financial services industry?

Yeah.

So, man, it was really early. I was a young kid, 16 years old, had my own little landscaping business, lawn mowing business like people my age did back then. And I think every young boy had a lawn mowing business. And it actually got pretty big. We were cutting 70 lawns a week in high school. I worked out a deal with my principal to get out of school half days. I had two people working for me. And my senior year in high school,

I said, I want to study finance. I thought I want to be a stockbroker. This was when stockbrokers were still a thing. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to keep running this long business. And then I need to know what to do with the money I'm making. And so a senior in high school, I just felt like this is my thing. I'm going to be a stockbroker. I looked up in a college catalog, what degree goes with being a stockbroker? It was a degree in finance. And you know, my life has taken...

a lot of different turns than I expected, but that was clarity God put in my heart when I was 17 years old as a junior, senior in high school, study finance.

Amazing. And then right out of college, you just jumped right into the business.

Yeah, so I was fortunate enough, I got a degree in finance, and then my junior and senior year of college now, not high school, but college, there was an internship opportunity, and that ended up being a company that I got an internship with. I took a job there upon graduation, and that is the company that I am the president of today and a minority shareholder. So it's 20 years ago.

What an amazing story. So I have to ask because I know the listeners are probably scratching their head. Did you sell the lawn care business?

Yeah, I did. It was not a massive monetization event. I could tell you that was, I still got to keep working.

I think we all do because we enjoy what we do, don't we? There you go.

Yeah, heck yeah, man. I, most days, although I will say sometimes when I'm sitting at home in my office and it's comfortable temperature outside, the sun is shining and I hear the lawnmower, I'm like, man, I'd like to do that job today. But when it's pouring down rain and there's a ton of leaves and all that, I'm like, man, I'm glad I'm in here and I'm not out there.

All right, so gotta ask the question. Do you do your own yard?

I should have known I set myself up. So I did for a long time. But a few years back, just life got too busy. And I'm kind of a grass snob because I grew up doing it. So like I wanted to be meticulous. So this is probably like a parenting fail on my part. But so my boys have two boys, 17, 15, and a 12 year old daughter. And they have plenty of chores around the house. But one of them is not mowing the lawn. We have

Ha ha!

pretty large five acres. But I have a service to it because I want nice edging, nice striping. And so they have to learn to work other ways because when they were younger, they're like, hey, dad can we mow the lawn. I'm like, why don't we find another job for you? I didn't want crooked lines.

That's awesome.

Ha ha!

I can appreciate that. Yeah, you want it to look like a golf course. Really nice and manicured.

Yeah, that's my thing, man. I like being out in nature. I mentioned that and part of being there is man when the grass is nice, I just like that's the way it ought to be.

Cool. So this podcast is dedicated to biblically responsible investing, trying to let listeners know that there are alternative choices to them when it comes to the world of investing. We can invest in the secular world, or we can invest to kingdom principles. When you hear the term biblically responsible investing, what's that mean to you?

Well, I mean, you know, that's ultimately what stewardship is all about. I mean, you read the scriptures and the money is not ours. The resources are not ours. We're managing them for the king and to say, what would the king have me to do with his money? Um, that's the first thing I think about biblical responsible is, okay, if I'm managing for a king, did the king give me any description of what he would like done?

We find that in the Bible and so biblical responsibility is kind of the how-to of what to do with the kings stuff So that's super high level And then how that plays out I think a lot of it has to do with you know people I view it kind of like a spectrum. There's some people that look more like What are the things I avoid investing in right because this is the king's money and the kingdom that the kingdom is not doing those Things so I don't want the king's capital in that space

Other people look at it less of what shouldn't I do, but actually what should I do? Proactively what type of use of the king's money advances the kingdom, right? And then personally, that's a good lens, but I also take a step back and say, it's not just about where I'm putting my investments, but I like to step back and say, before I even get to the investment part of the portfolio, my overall...

approach to finance, my overall budget, my overall approach to generosity. If I'm just focusing on me saving money for my things and then I'm just talking about biblical investing, I can come to the false conclusion. I think, hey, I'm doing it the way the king wants. Well, if it's still all saving money for yourself, that might not be exactly, not might, probably not what the mandate is. It's about stewardship, which involves

generosity giving and then where you are saving for yourself and being wise and being a good steward making sure that money is put to things that are consistent with God's kingdom. That's kind of how I look at it.

It's an awesome way to look at it, Caleb. I think that more and more people need to be able to realize that it's not ours. None of it belongs to us. You know, and at the end of the day, when we thought, think about this and we hear about tithing and that 10%, God actually never mandated the 10%. Abraham did it before God even talked about it. He felt that was something that he should do. And, and when people realize that, that God just wants our first.

No.

He wants us to just be there for him and do that. And he allows us to keep 90% that we can use for more kingdom work. I mean, if you really look at it that way, that's what it's for. And something I learned a long time ago, you cannot out give God if your heart's right. You don't do it to get, you do it because number one, we should, and when we do, he honors that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, he who is faithful with a few things will be made ruler over more things. I mean, that's a kingdom principle, stewardship. And it's not about more things for me. It's you're entrusted with more things for him. You know, in the Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, I love this phrase. He says, the point I'm trying, and I'm paraphrasing this, but he says, the point I'm making in the context of giving, he says, the point I'm trying to make is this, whoever sows sparingly, reaps sparingly.

Absolutely.

and whoever sows bountifully, reaps bountifully. And my nature, right, my personality, I have a degree in finance, I have a minor in economics, right, like a lot, just like you, the people who are gonna listen to this, we're very numeric, where there's a allocation, there's a balance sheet, there's, right, a budget. But the idea that

But the idea that there isn't necessarily like a hard fast rule, like to me it would be a lot easier if the Bible just said like, hey, I want you to give 10, I want you to give 12, I want you to give 7 and check the box, I'm obedient. I think it's hard when it says, well, be generous. Because then it's like, well, what is generosity? Like, there's something, and I think that is what Paul's writing to the Corinthians there, the whole letter is like, hey, tell us what to do, what do we do, what do I do? And he gets and he says, hey, look.

point is this, be generous. God loves a cheerful giver. God loves you to give generously and without begrudgingly. But do it in a way that is generous and if you want to sow bountifully, you'll reap bountifully. If you don't, you want to sow sparingly, you'll reap sparingly. It's kind of like up to you. What do you want to do? I love that. I love and hate that, I guess I should say. I love

that it's less about do this exactly like this, but there are times where I feel like, man, that'd be a lot easier if it was just like, do this, just follow this specific instruction and be obedient. And a lot of times it's not, it's about what does generosity, what does it mean in this context to be generous? Sometimes that's more than 10%.

See, a lot of us, absolutely. And a lot of us are looking for, you know, the yes and no, as you said, the checkbox, tell me what I need to do. It's kind of like, well, when we're married and we say, hey, where do you want to go to dinner tonight? I don't care. Well, what does I don't care really mean? Give me the list of where you don't want to go and I'll pick from the others. It's the way God is. And I love that, because he gives us free choice. We have free will.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do what's right for you. Do what's right for your family. And I think that's a beautiful thing. So, let...

and learning to listen to just you know put that before the Lord and listen you know that's a um you know I not to get into particular denominations or people have different views but you know understanding the role of the Holy Spirit in this that yeah you have principles and you have a plan right but then you also ask the king right what would you have me to do and being led by the Holy Spirit and directed into different seasons

that there might be different places that your money should go because the Lord is leading in different amounts. I don't think it's always exactly a scientific, this percentage, this place, that's it. I think there are principles and there's consistency to those principles, but then I also see all through scripture that the Spirit moves and leads in different seasons. God's kingdom is expanding and the Spirit is moving in different ways throughout that kingdom and we want to be in tune to that.

and surrender those resources to where they need to be for that season.

That's a really fantastic way to look at that. You know, my wife and I, we used to play this game. If we had missionaries or someone coming to church before I started pastoring a church, and they were asking for resources and asking for money, we both felt that yes, we need to give. We'd play the little game. Okay, you write down how much you think, and she'd write down how much she thinks, and we'd see what it was. Because sometimes my thoughts were really high, and hers may not have been.

Yeah.

but you'd really be amazed how many times we wrote down the exact same number. And a lot of it was on the higher side. I think that's all the Holy Spirit. It's confirmation. He's giving us what we need to do to make sure that, yeah, we're doing it the right way. So good deal. Well, all this generosity and this giving leads right back into what you do for the company with your global initiative. You wanna talk about that a little bit?

Amen.

Yeah, so day to day, Valmark Financial Group is a broker dealer, an RIA, and an insurance brokerage, all in one. So we serve independent financial advisors as their platform in a B2B model. That's our space. Independent entrepreneurs, highly ethical, high-end, high-net-worth advisors, we're the back office, the platform. Again, integrated BD, RIA, insurance, all in one structure.

as a business before we distribute profits to the owners and do bonuses to the employees. And we just take 10% of the profit and put it in the Valmark Global Gift Fund, which sounds fancy, but it's just a donor-advised fund. I got a couple of different custodians of where the money is, but it's just a shell of a donor-advised fund. And 10% a year. And then what we did is our financial advisors, the customers, we said, hey, we're gonna do this. Why don't you create

grant requests of charities or ministries that you are personally involved in with your own money in your own time and you can request a grant from our global gift fund. And then we created a board of seven person employees of the organization that then review the grants, call the financial advisors that they serve as their customers and let the financial advisors tell them about this ministry and why it's important to them. And then the employees.

decide how to allocate that 10% of money for the year between those charities. And so, it started early on, it wasn't a ton of money, maybe $50,000, I think, which is still meaningful. We had maybe five financial advisors do requests. We put a cap of $10,000 per request, just because we need to spread it around and not everyone's 10, you can't always do it.

Absolutely.

But by God's grace, fast forward 19 years later, we have had the opportunity to give thousands of requests to over 300 charities, over $10 million, our little financial firm in Akron, Ohio. And so that's been really, really cool. And it all started with essentially a donor advice fund and involving our customers, the financial advisors, and our staff, and God has really, really blessed us.

And that's local in Akron, it's domestic across the whole country, and it is international. And most of that money is going to widows, orphans, Christian education, evangelism, clean water, food, shelter, those type of things, all in the name of Christ. So that's a big, big part of what we do.

What an initiative. Can you imagine the impact it would make if more companies just did that?

It would be huge.

I think so. I'm not sure I can.

Yeah, it would be absolutely staggering the amount that could help the kingdom work. But all right, let's get go ahead. No, no, no. Finish up.

I think, oh, go ahead. I was just gonna tell you, the encouraging thing has been some of our financial advisors have actually replicated that strategy for themselves. So they've said, well, what if we, with our practice, started tithing and formed our own donor advice fund? And so now those firms are...

part of their grant request is a request for their donor advised fund. So they're tithing 10% of their profits and then our donor advised fund is funding part of their donor advised fund. So together now their donor advised fund is going to their clients, which are retail customers, the charities they're involved with. And so we have seen over the 19 years, there are 20 different financial firms that we serve as customers that have replicated

Global Gift Fund Strategy. They call it the Sharing and Caring Fund or the Kingdom Building Fund or whatever it is, but it's just a donor-advised fund. And they have taken our grant request applications and we've got some constitution and workflows just to formalize it. And we give them to them for free. And we say, hey, if you wanna do this, we would love to just share. And so...

It's not everybody, but it's been a blessing. In addition to the $10 million that we know has been given from our fund, there are 20 other financial advisor companies that have replicated this strategy in their own community. So, you know, it is paying it forward in a way and multiplying. Um, so it's, it is working.

You know, they say that things that we do, the interactions that we have with others can have a ripple effect that goes further than anything we can ever imagine. You know, you take a rock and you throw it in the lake and you see it ripple, and it eventually ends. But when we do kingdom work and we support things that are important to the king,

There's no end to that ripple. You have no idea whose life you may affect somewhere further down the line that had nothing to do with the original grant request, with the original donation. And that is, it's just amazing how God can take such a simple thing and multiply it like he did the fish and the loaves. It's a great thing. I commend your company for doing that, Caleb. I think, again, I wish more and more companies would do something like that, because it's pretty cool.

Thank you. And it's his money, his company, his glory.

So let's get back into talking about biblically responsible investing. One of the points that a lot of people don't want to invest this way is because they feel, they think that performance will suffer because of it. What do you guys do to talk about that, to show your clients that there's really no difference?

Yeah, I mean, I think there are two ways you can go with this question. And I think you can actually just engage in the technical analysis of actually, let's just look at the performance. And when you actually look at the performance, you can actually dispel that myth. There is plenty of real empirical data that says, no, you're not giving up performance in lieu of investing in biblically consistent.

avenues. But you can also like performance is kind of like well what do you wanted to say? I could if we could if you wanted to look good I can make it look good. If you want it to look bad I can make it look bad. I can find something somewhere at any point at any time to make my point when you're just looking at that. So I would say if you are looking for it to be bad there's somebody who can go in and say oh no biblical responsibility investing is going to cost you. If you're looking for it to be good

I can pull data that says actually no, it's not only not going to cost you, it's actually going to benefit you. But what I would set back and say, okay, do it, do the math, do the research, right? You should. That's being a good investment advisor and sitting down with a client and helping them understand. But I do think it's important to say.

But is it the most important thing, the absolute rate of return, or is it something more than that? Like, is it just if the money, if the return isn't good enough, I'd be like saying I only give to my church as long as I get a tax deduction. It's like, well, the tax deduction is helpful, and that makes it nice and it's kind of God that it also is financially rewarding. But don't just do it because it's more profitable. So one thing I would just say is I think the data is there, but I would step back and say, even if it wasn't.

isn't it still important to do? The next thing I would say is

Do you believe that the work that you're doing is advancing the Kingdom mandate? If we were created in God's image and God says we've been given dominion over the birds of the air and the fish of the sea and essentially over His creation, part of living out that creation mandate is continuing to be a creator and innovator and do things in His world.

and reclaim that territory for God's kingdom. And one of the ways to do that is putting capital towards good things. How kind of God, I tell my kids this, or even when I teach some of the high school, my little brother's a youth pastor, he'll invite me in sometimes. And I'll say, you know, God's ways are the best ways. It works so that when you do things God's way, it actually tends to be a successful business too.

Not always not always in the short run it Sometimes there is a cost and there is suffering and there's persecution and there's a trade-off But a lot of times in god's kindness the way god says to do it If you run a company and live out the beatitudes You generally speaking have a good company that people want to work at that customers want to come to that creates a profit So I would say

And when you do things God's way, it often does result in financial success. Of course it does. He designed it. He made it. His ways are the best ways. You know, he didn't just tell you, Hey, I'm going to come up with these crazy rules. And then I just want you to obey these rules and you're not going to obey these rules all the time, and I'm just going to prove a point to you that you're not good enough and then I'll come rescue you. Like there is some, a little bit of truth in that, but that's not like the whole story, the whole story is like, I didn't randomly just make the stuff up to make it hard. Like.

I'm genuinely telling you the best way to do it. If you do it this way, it actually works. Now, you're not going to get it perfect, and you're not going to do it right, and you are going to need my help, and I am going to have to come in and restore. But I didn't just make these things up to think, what's the hardest thing I could ask of you? No, this is the way it works. When you do it this way, it tends to prosper. It brings shalom the way it ought to be, the peace that should be there. So I would say there is no trade-off.

Peace.

when you look at the data, of course you can find snippets to make it look better or worse. But the main thing is, are you doing it because it's the right thing to do, regardless? And recognize God is kind over the long run, the way that he says to do things happen to bring human flourishing and prosperity when done the right way. That's how I look at it.

That is a fantastic way to look at it. I'm glad you explained it the way that you did. That's, it's going to answer some questions for people that are out there knowing that God just says do right. I mean, you know, He gave us 10 commandments, Jesus boils all 10 down to two, and we can't even do that. Love God, love others. Simple as that. And when we use our capital to help other people, that's showing God's love. Whether you're a believer or not, there are great

out there that aren't believers that give and give and give, they understand this concept of generosity. I just wish they would understand who created that in them because it wasn't the enemy that did. It was definitely, it's a God thing in our bodies. We're meant to do this and you know it's just, it is.

Yeah.

But it's the gateway into the kingdom. It is, you know, you need, Jesus is the only way. We believe that, the Bible teaches that there are claims of exclusivity that, you know, these people with, we're all just climbing a mountain and I hope we get, we all find our own way to the top. Well, Jesus didn't leave that door open. He was very mutually exclusive, right? At the same time, there are attributes about the kingdom that are attractive to people to say, man.

I do desire to be loved. When I see love, like unconditional sacrificial love, I am drawn to that. But I don't care if you're watching a sporting event, there's something about pride that you just hope the team fails or the athlete fails. When you see humility, you're just like, man, I am polling for them. I am polling for the underdog. Like wired in you are attributes of the way God designed things to be. And so when we do those things that are consistent with kingdom principles or kingdom economics,

They do tend to work. And ultimately, then you need to say, well, why do they work? And who put those in place? And you lead people to know Jesus. But it is still just a wonderful way to just doing the right thing can be helpful. Very quickly, I was at Harvard Business School one summer, and there was a professor there, very prominent. He's retired. He had one of the most frequently requested, republished Harvard Business Review articles. And he came in for a day.

and he lectured and he basically was saying the attributes of great leaders. And when it was done, he went through all this and I went up to him afterwards and I said, have you ever like overlaid your principles of great leaders with Jesus's sermon on the mount, the Beatitudes? Like there's a tremendous amount. And he said, no, I've never even thought about that. And to me, it was like such a blessing to be like, of course, when you really look at the analysis,

There is success from leaders who do things the way Jesus said to be. Like that is winsome and it works. I was like, wow, are we surprised? Why, why do you think Jesus said to do it?

It never ceases to amaze me. I do some coaching outside of my practice that I help Christian leaders understand more about bringing Jesus to work. And so many of them are afraid to, because they are afraid of retribution, because they don't know in the public space what's acceptable, what's not. But when you have the leader who really wants to, and then you talk about leadership skills and they start quoting John Maxwell, who I'm a fan of, or

other guys, I just have to ask them, well where do you think they got that from? And then they're like, well no idea. Well it's all in the Bible. And absolutely, Jesus was the best servant leader there was, and that's what our desire is to be like Him, and to be like Him we have to serve others, and we do it with humility as you said, and we do it with conviction, and that we really truly want others to succeed.

Right?

All truth is God's truth. He is.

That's why I do what I do. And I'm sure that's why you do what you do. And watching your children, I will tell you this, mine are much older, they're adults now, and I have grandchildren. So as they mature, Caleb, you're gonna see the fruits of everything you taught them start to come out. And you're gonna have this different emotion. It's, I wanna say it's pride, but it's a good pride. It's not the pride that brings us down. That they finally see you for who you are, and thank you.

for raising them the way that you did. That moment will come, my friend. And when it does, it's gonna be such a blessing to you.

Thank you. That's a good word.

All right, let's, we talked a lot about, you've mentioned the words wisdom, and you've mentioned the words profit, and we've talked integrity. That happens to be the tagline for what my show is. It's wisdom over worth, principles over profit, morals over money, and integrity over it all. If you hear those, and you think about those things, do they resonate with you? If not, tell me why.

Let me think about that for a minute

Yeah, I mean, I, that does resonate. I think at the end of the day, it's hard when you're in the West, I think in particular, we're taught to be, you know, don't accept things the way they are, be a constant mover and a shaker disruptor, revolutionary capitalism, like, oh, I mean, things that I do agree with to a point. But man, at some point, when you, when you

like keep peeling it back and say why, why. You do have to have something at the core that is, what is the why, to what end, to what, and when you say profits, okay, profits for what, the sake of profits, well, why? Okay, well, if fundamentally profits are a tool to be used either good or badly.

Well, now I can start to say, okay, profits are important. They're not evil, but what I do with them and why I make them and how I distribute them. So I think I like the tagline, just what was struck at me. I, and I had not heard it before is for the person who has the deeper questions about what is the reason we're here and what's the point of it all. I like those phrases so much of financial planning.

is like there's a financial goal and then you get it and it's like, is that really the end of the story? Like I did the financial plan, the eMoney software or whatever your thing is. And it's like, okay, it works. You did it. Like is the game over? Did I win? And I love Mitch Anthony has that line. You've probably talked with him many times, but he says,

Money can help you fund a purpose, but it cannot help you find a purpose. And that is another way of getting to the heart of, which I love that you've put those out there. I mean, maybe I'll turn it around and ask you, when you give those principles and those taglines, in your conversation with clients, does that lead to discussions of places that you otherwise wouldn't go if you didn't have those?

Absolutely. I think that part of the wisdom over worth is the conversation is simple. You come to me, you want advice, you know this is what I do because that's all I do. I have a niche practice. I only do biblically responsible investing. I don't buy Microsoft, Facebook. I just don't. I screen everything I do and I do it on both the positive screens and the negative screens so my clients understand that. But when it comes to wisdom over worth, they...

The conversation is simple. Do you want to be educated in why we do what we do? And this is where the Bible tells us to do it this way. That's where wisdom come from. Principles over profit. I'm not going to do something unethical, un-moral. I'm not going to take a risk with your money just to chase the latest and greatest, you know, stock pick or mutual fund that might kill it this year. Because, you know, five-star, morning star this year could be a three-star next year, and then a one-star the year after that. Things happen.

So are we putting something in place that's got a grounded, rooted principle that we follow? And they love that aspect of it. You know, morals over money. Again, that's the same play. It's just, are we doing things that are morally right? Am I telling you the truth? Are you telling me the truth?

That's the other part of it. Sometimes clients don't want to share the truth with you until they really get to know you. And our advice to them may change when we have the whole truth. So when we sit down with clients and we're going through a planning process, we ask them, just be as honest with us as you can so we can make the right recommendations for you. Because the one thing we don't ever want to do is put them in a position that five years, 10 years down the road, had we known the truth, they wouldn't be in.

And then again, integrity. I think integrity over everything we do. That's explaining how annuities work. That's talking about stocks and mutual funds and the risk that's involved when you invest. I think that is a big play in all of it. And that's kind of why I think God led me to those four words as the tagline for this podcast.

And I, Jeff, I affirm everything you just said. That resonates with me. Well done.

Well, thank you. So, you know, you've been with one company since college. So has it always been a place for you to be able to share faith freely like you do? Because I mean, I know you outside of this podcast, we've met several times at Kingdom Advisors, and I see you live this out. So how has that affected your life? Does it just bring you joy to be able to do that?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, I mean, I would say it is one of the things I'm most grateful for in my life is the ability to live life just holistically and not in silos. And that isn't like a criticism of people who can't because I also recognize, you know, the good fortune I have to be in this space. If it was a different company or a different arena, it might not be as easy, but it brings me great joy and to not have like this

duplicity or just segments of my life. And early on, I was raised where I think well intended, but it was kind of like a lot of us that grew up in a church or around a church, there are certain types of spiritual jobs, right? And you end up in this one and you can be a pastor, you can be a missionary, you can, there's like 10 acceptable jobs, maybe there's only five, I don't know. And for whatever reason, I love Jesus.

But from the time I was young, I always had a business mind. I understood money. I bought and sold cars. I bought and sold real property, mowers and things. And it was always like, I don't know, I just think this way. But early on, I remember going to college, and then even the first couple of years working, before I was confident to know that I could do these things, I'm just feeling it out. And thinking to myself, like,

Am I going to just like work here, make money, and then take that money and give it to a church and then that will be my contribution for the kingdom of God? Or is there a way that this work itself could be part of God's work in God's kingdom? And so early on I felt more of that tension mostly because I had never really seen working in what's called a secular job.

having people see it as a calling. But through a number of people, a number of mentors, and ultimately the majority shareholder of the company who hired me 20 years ago, who is a believer, and as we grew in our relationship, it has just been not only the option to do it, it has been the main emphasis. This is why we're here, this is what we're doing. And so I have great

gratitude for being in a position to be able to live faith and work like this and not like this. So it my hope is within the church like if you were to say Caleb what's kind of your thing what's your you know I don't there's a lot of things I don't know the one thing I would love to and why I like KA so much is

helping people in their profession see their work as calling. Because to me, when you can wake up every day and this is God's kingdom and your day-to-day job, like sometimes it's sharing the gospel with people, like straight up, full-fledged, just death, burial, resurrection of Jesus justified by faith. Like just sometimes it's like that. And sometimes it's just being a really, really good manager and giving people grace. And...

being humble and being a good listener. Like to me, you don't get to control the season or the opportunities, but you surrender. But to know like sometimes on Monday, I'm sharing the gospel and sometimes I'm loving my neighbor, but that's up to God for the circumstances that are put in front of me. But each day I equally brought glory to the King. Like that's freeing to me, that's transformational. That every day can be on mission for the kingdom. So.

I don't even know if I'm answering the question anymore. I'm just.

You are, you are, but what that brings to mind is I have, you know, being both a pastor and a business owner, my mind's a little different. I have many friends that are pastors and that's what they do. They're full time in that field. They really don't understand that what we do in the business world truly is a mission field as well.

And we did a, we had breakfast with a group of them I've been involved with. And, and we did a book study one time called the merchant and the monk. And it was about the synergy between business and the church and how they really do go hand in hand. And that was one of the most freeing moments for a lot of these guys to see that, that what I do, my view of things on this side of it going, yeah, it is a ministry to us and.

it really opened their eyes because without business, where would the capital truly come from? So understanding what we do and why we do it has brought tremendous, again, freedom to a lot of these people in these pastures. So, all right, we're coming up towards the end of this, but there's gotta be a couple of questions I have to ask you. The first is take out your crystal ball. Tell me what you think the industry's gonna be looking like in the next five to 10 years.

financial services or like Christian financial kingdom advisor sphere?

our industry, financial services industry.

Okay. I mean, look, I'm not the right guy to know. I mean, if I had to just categorically say, I mean, clearly everybody's wondering what, you know, AI and machine learning and does that take over the role of asset allocation and the role of financial planning? What is the role of the human financial advisor? And I don't know. But I do know that the human condition and the soul and

The part that is made in God's image and made to long for the things that only God can provide Can never be replaced by any kind of machine or algorithm So I guess if I were just to take that to some practical application I would say in your practice in my practice, you know Hold fast to the principles but hold loosely to the particulars. So Some of the ways we make money today or the tools we use or the screeners like maybe hold those loosely

hold fast to the principles and maybe we become more, people talk about being more, I don't know if this is the right word in Christian circles, but being more psychologists than financial advisors. Some people talk about being more coaches than analysts. Some people, I don't know what the right framework is, but I get the point. The point is, as more and more of what financial people have done historically becomes automated by tech and...

machines do the part that is uniquely human. To me that's true for all businesses, it's true for financial services especially, but it's particularly true for kingdom advisors because the most human thing that you can do is the work of the kingdom with the souls of men and women. So to me as much as people talk about what's the role of humans in the future, like

There's a part where you can be like, I don't know. I don't know exactly how we're going to do it. There's a part that's like, Oh, that's exciting. Like, cause all the, as we start automating all that stuff, then we have to really talk about what matters, what's left. So.

See, I look at technology as being a tool for us to increase our capacity, because I mean, one advisor can only handle so many clients effectively, but with good technology, we could theoretically half that number or double that number from what we currently can, because it does make it easier. And for the kingdom advisor side of me, that's like more people I get to share this message with. So that's why I look at that. All right, so.

Yeah.

If you could have a conversation with three people, dead or alive, who would they be and why, and you cannot say Jesus.

Okay.

Well, I mean, I'm going to have to pick someone in the Bible. I'm going to go with King Solomon. I mean, I don't know how you can you probably get that a lot. If that's a question you ask your other guests. But King Solomon, for obvious reasons, being the wisest man who ever lived, according to the Bible, that sounds pretty good. Second one, I would say I'll go a little more in contemporary history.

You know, I would love to talk to Winston Churchill. I think read a lot of books on his leadership through the war, second world war. So probably him, just the more that you see the unlikely nature that he was used, the way he was used. It's like, wow, that was a unique man for a unique time. And then I guess if we're gonna go back maybe a little further, you know what? I would love.

to, in my room, you can't see it, but there's a revolutionary war painting. And I mean, any of the founding fathers, but I would love to see how George Washington led. You read these books and they talk about he was like the typical general. He was just taller, he was bigger, but he had like this winsome humility that people would follow him anywhere. And the way that he led as a commander in an army,

the way that he became a president, the way that he didn't want the presidency to be about him. And he enforced himself having term limits when they wanted him. He's like, hey, I don't wanna be a king. It's not about me. So I guess, I might change my list if I had more time to think about it, but I guess I'm going with King Solomon, George Washington, and Winston Churchill in chronological order. There you go.

So you are the first one who said King Solomon. You are the second or third that said Winston Churchill. That's pretty interesting. Cause I like Churchill's, I like him a lot too. And I think you're the very first one to say George Washington, but I understand the reasons why. Cause he really was, he was a gentle giant who led with humility as you put it out. All right, so the last question, what haven't I asked you that you're just dying to talk about?

Okay.

Yeah.

I don't know, you're good at asking questions. You know what you're doing.

I guess I would say...

Maybe because I have empathy towards being a young person who started as an intern and grew up in a company and I'm now one of the principals, shareholders and the president. I have kind of this affinity for young people coming into the business. Everybody always tells me like, oh, you know, and which is fine, but in 2024 or whatever, you're gonna have 11 companies you work for, you're not gonna stay with the same, there's all this stuff, okay, maybe.

But I would say, man, what is the plan for recruiting and engaging young people into our profession? Particularly young people who love Jesus, because I think, like, I think Brown Blue says it, every financial decision is a spiritual decision because money is a barometer for heart. So like, man, what better way, if you believe the things you believe about the Bible, to get close to someone's heart than to be the one that is interacting with them with their money. That's like,

being in the front row of the most important thing going on and being able to influence that. So if you love Jesus and you say like, where's the natural place? Man, like, so for me, I would say, what is our industry doing to really connect? And I would just encourage anyone who's listening to this, man, like get involved in your churches as much as you have like youth group and college. And like, do you have men of business, women of business who are there?

championing the idea that you can serve Jesus in your profession. And these are honorable, noble, kingdom, God-glorifying professions. If you have any universities that are local, man, do an internship. Like our global gift fund even. Like it all starts with one step, right? Like, yeah, it's $10 million. It's 19 years. It's 300 charities. But it all started with one grant for a few thousand bucks. I'll say the same thing. You know, we have 20...

I think we're at 27 today, interns in our building in Akron, Ohio right now. Um, they used to be one. So start with like, what is your, how can you be an ambassador for God's kingdom? But one of the ways as a financial advisor, being an ambassador to your church or being a pastor to your. University or to whatever your nexus is to young kids and just do one, one internship, one mentorship, help one person see that.

This is a great profession that's needed financial services. And if you happen to love Jesus and want to serve him, that is like a double bonus for going into this industry. That would be like, if we were gonna have another conversation sometime, I would love to talk about, man, that plan helping young people come into financial services and in particular be on mission for the kingdom in financial services.

Well, I don't know if you've listened to the show, but on the first season of this podcast, Kurt Kornfield's show was the most downloaded episode we had. Kurt is he runs Liberty University's

Yeah, I know the name. I don't know him personally, but I know...

Yeah, you need to meet Kurt. He's doing incredible work with these young people at Liberty University, and he has gotten other universities involved as well. There was over, I think, 300 students at the Kingdom Advisors Conference this year that were there to learn. It's an incredible place.

I saw the job fair. That was awesome. We sent our HR people there to mingle and I love that. And didn't he win the Larry Burkett a couple of years ago? Yeah. Man, what a great.

Yeah, so it's.

Thanks for watching!

kind of ties into exactly what you said. Let's teach them, let's mentor them, let's be here for them. So, Caleb, you have been awesome on the show. Thank you so much for joining us today. And again, I'd love to have you back. If you wanna talk about something separate like that, that's what we're here for. We want people to understand it. So thanks again, God bless, take care, bye-bye.

Yeah.