The primary focus of this discussion centers on the gradual disconnection that often transpires within long-term relationships, a phenomenon where partners do not necessarily fall out of love, but rather experience a decline in emotional and physical intimacy. We explore the intricacies of intimacy, acknowledging that it can ebb and flow due to various life circumstances, and emphasize that such disconnection should not be viewed as an indictment of the relationship, but rather as a critical signal that necessitates attention and dialogue. The episode features insights from Zenith, a renowned author and intimacy educator, who elucidates the importance of courage and effort in rekindling the connection that might have faded over time. Listeners are encouraged to recognize the potential for repair and renewal in their relationships, emphasizing that the journey toward intimacy is not only possible but attainable with intentionality and commitment. As we delve deeper into this topic, we provide actionable strategies and foster a conversation that aims to inspire hope and facilitate healing in romantic partnerships.

The discourse presented in this episode elucidates an often overlooked phenomenon within long-term relationships: the gradual decline of connection rather than the outright demise of love. Speaker A articulates that individuals frequently misinterpret emotional disconnection as a definitive failure of the relationship, when in truth, such disconnection serves as a crucial signal that necessitates attention and action. The conversation delves into the intricacies of intimacy, asserting that the effortless closeness experienced in the early stages of a romantic relationship can transform into a daunting challenge as time progresses. This transition often requires not only effort but also courage from both partners to rekindle the intimacy that may have faded. The episode hosts Zenith, a distinguished author and intimacy educator, who shares her insights drawn from years of experience in guiding couples through the complexities of reconnecting emotionally and physically, emphasizing that intimacy can and should be actively cultivated, rather than passively expected.

Takeaways:

• Long-term relationships often do not suffer from a loss of love, but rather a gradual disconnection that can go unnoticed over time.
• Intimacy within a relationship transitions from being effortless to requiring conscious effort and courage to maintain.
• Disconnection is not an irreversible verdict on a relationship, but rather a signal that something needs to be addressed and explored.
• It is essential to recognize that both emotional and sexual intimacy are interconnected, and a lack of attunement in one can affect the other significantly.
• The fading of intimacy is a natural progression in relationships, often overshadowed by life’s demands and shifting priorities, necessitating proactive engagement.
• Effective communication and vulnerability are fundamental in rebuilding intimacy, particularly when addressing underlying conflicts and resentments.

Links referenced in this episode:

• PassionateIntimacyRetreats.com
• passionateintimacyretreatss.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Passionate Intimacy Retreats

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Dear listeners, most people in the long term relationships don't fall out of love.

They fall out of connection gradually, quietly, often without noticing.

The intimacy that often felt effortless starts to require effort and then it requires courage.

And then for a lot of people, it just stop being attempted.

But disconnection in a relationship is not a kind of verdict, but it's a signal.

And today's conversation is all about what it actually takes to hear that signal and something real with it.

So, hey, dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of mindweek's Machine, where we explore the full landscape of what it means to be human, including the parts of life we don't talk about nearly enough.

I'm your host, Awek, and I'm really glad that all of you are here today for this one.

And my guest today is the bestselling author, sex and intimacy educator and coach, and the founder of Passionate Intimacy Retreats, where she helps couples move from disconnection back toward genuine passion and the closeness.

So please welcome our guest, Zenith.

So welcome to the show.

Thank you so much.

I'll be happy to be here and have this conversation with you.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

So, Zenith, like, before we get into the vogue, I'm curious about what drew you to this particular space.

Like, the intimacy and sexuality are the areas most people navigate privately and most professionals stay well away from also.

So what called you towards this pocket?

That's a great question.

So it was not a linear approach to it as life often throws you a lot of curveballs.

So my background is a healthcare lawyer, but I was living in a sexless marriage for 26 years.

Not completely sexless because I have children and grandchildren, but pretty much sexless as we define sexless at this point.

When I left that marriage at age 50, I decided that I needed to really just understand what happened.

Like, what happened in the dynamics between the two of us.

What was going on for me that made me feel no desire or feel totally sexually shut down.

And that was the doorway to my opening and sexual awareness and sexual awakening and sexual healing that I didn't even realize I actually needed, to be honest.

So that's what drew me into the field.

It was through my own, like many people in the therapy world, I am a wounded healer.

Right.

And what drew me into it was like my own healing process, which was so profound and changed my life in so many different ways.

And then recognizing that, oh, wow, maybe this is something I'm really passionate about.

Like, healthcare is fine.

You know, healthcare law is Fine.

All that stuff was fine.

But it wasn't like, I wanna do this for the rest of my life.

I'm actually gonna change the world.

I was not changing the world, unfortunately.

Right.

And apparently I had this very big desire to change the world as much as I could and leave a legacy, I guess.

So that's.

It just became like a passion project for me.

Like, wow, what if I did this?

What if, what if there was somebody like me when I was 26, 28, 30, you know, struggling with this, how different my life would have been if I had been able to have.

Get some support?

So can I do that for other people?

Can I do it for other women?

Can I do it for other couples?

That was really my driving force.

That's really interesting.

And here, you know, definitely, it's, it's a very small word, one word, but it has a lot of value, the misconception.

So I want to start with that because I think there are several that quietly damage couples before they even try to address what's happening.

And the biggest one I encourage is the idea that if intimacy has faded, it means something fundamentally is broken or missing between two people.

So from that perspective, like, what do you think?

I mean, what is the misconception about intimacy and that design in the long term relationship that you find yourself addressing most consistently?

Yeah, well, you know, I think the fact that intimacy fades over a period of time is at some level natural.

Right.

Like we start out in a new relationship with all of this new relationship energy, all of this juiciness, all of this like high sex drive.

And that's just really.

It's a chemical reaction, honest.

It's a dopamine flooding our systems.

I like to say it's like mother Nature's way of ensuring that we continue to procreate, right.

That we continue to maintain the species.

But that fades over after 6 to 18 month period of time.

And then the real relationship begins.

Those hormones aren't there anymore, right.

And then a couple has to kind of make a decision and recognize, like, where are we really now?

Who are we really now?

How do we want to actually be in relationship when we don't have that dopamine constantly flooding our system, right?

So, you know, intimacy fades because there's a hormonal response, or a lack thereof of a hormonal response from the new relationship energy, which is natural and normal.

Intimacy fades because life becomes real.

We have to focus on our jobs.

We have to, you know, children come into play.

Right.

Like there's a lot of other things that become a priority in our relationship as a relationship deepens and you grow, especially if you're on the.

The beginning of a relationship, right?

Especially as in a younger stage when.

When children are in the picture or even in a second marriage, when older children come into the picture, right?

And we also.

And I think this is also just a natural response, right?

We start talking to each other less in the way we used to, less about, like, share your dreams, let's talk about our passions.

Let's look at our future together, right?

All of that beautiful conversation that you often have in the beginning of a relationship when everybody's like a new shiny object.

And then we turn into like, did you see the grocery list on the wall?

Who's going to take the dog to the vet?

Right?

So our conversations get very much more logistical and practical.

And, you know, again, this is pretty natural.

Like, we take just like, this is just what people do.

Like, we take the relationship and we take our partner for granted.

We just assume that things are.

Can continue going the way they are without actually making it a priority and putting the relationship at the.

At least very close to the top of our very long to do lists, including our life and careers and other things.

Right?

And so, you know, it's.

It's kind of natural because that's how human beings are.

We fall into these patterns, these, like, comfortable places.

And maybe we don't want to have hard conversations, right?

So it's easy just to avoid the fact that intimacy is fading, but nobody wants to bring it up and doesn't know how to say it.

But the good news is it's all fixable, right?

Like, yeah, it's all fixable.

It's fixable, definitely.

And, you know, the difference between emotional intimacy and the sexual intimacy, because a lot of couples experience them falling out of sync where one feels present and other feels not.

So what is the relationship between the two like?

Well, they're very.

They're very.

They're very interconnected, Right?

Okay.

They're different, but they are interconnected.

So, you know, I like to talk about it in the.

I like to use a different terminology.

I mean, yeah, sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy.

But I want to go back a step here, Avi, and talk about attunement, because when you're out of sync with your partner, emotionally or sexually, there's a misattunement that's happening.

Right.

When I think about attunement, I think about, you know, two keys.

Two different keys on a piano, right?

Or tuning forks, right?

So, like, if they're both at the same D sharp, which is really kind of bad.

Let me pick a better one.

F sharp.

Then everything is great.

The energy is flowing.

There's synchronicity, Right.

It's harmonious.

And that's when you're feeling attuned to your partner.

You're present with them, you get them, they get you.

Right.

That creates emotional connection, the emotional attunement.

And generally.

Also.

Generally will also create the physical attunement.

Right?

But what happens when you're out of sync?

Which one of you is on F sharp and the other one's on a D flat or D minor?

Right.

It's horrible.

Yeah.

And that's the misattunement that happens in couples, which is a precursor to feeling out of sync with each other emotionally and.

Or sexually.

Right.

So we really want to look at that and try to figure out, well, how do we come back in tune with each other?

Like, couples come in and say that to me all the time.

It's like, you know, it's like we're in two different wavelengths.

You've heard that, right?

We're two.

We're two ships, you know, passing in the middle of the night.

Right.

That's a couple that's misattuned to each other, and that affects the emotional intimacy because you're not feeling connected with each other.

You don't feel seen, that doesn't feel good.

You don't feel heard.

That doesn't feel good.

Right.

You might feel that, you know, there's a lot of criticism coming your way that you can't do anything.

That's right.

Like, whatever it is, right.

It doesn't.

It doesn't really.

You really don't feel like you have that solid connection between each other.

And then there's.

Should I keep on going because I'm hearing background noise?

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, it's fine.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then there's the physical misattunement as well, right.

Where sexually, you just are not being present with each other.

You're not flowing.

You don't know what each other wants.

You can't feel in your body what your partner wants either.

So that can be very, very challenging as well.

Exactly.

I agree, definitely.

And, like, when couples come to you, whether for the coaching or for one of your retreats, what are the root patterns do you see most often?

Like, not the presenting complaint, but which is usually something like, we have grown apart or we don't connect anymore, but the deeper thing underneath that.

I mean, if I can share a bit.

No need to take the names.

But I mean.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, sometimes they don't even recognize that, like, they know that things aren't working, but they don't realize what's happening underneath, Right.

How it shows up symptomatically is maybe there's a lot of rejection, right?

One partner feels not desired, you know, because perhaps they've initiated and been rejected and then been rejected again, and then been rejected again.

So they don't feel desired by their partner.

The other partner might feel pressure to perform, pressure to have sex.

So it often shows up in, like, we're not able to connect with each other because all.

There's all of this, like, rejection that happens.

And then I pull back, right?

I feel rejected.

I pull back.

My partner tries to come forward.

I still feel rejected.

So there's patterns that go on with respect to, you know, attachment styles, if you will.

Like, right, pursuer, somebody's pursuing, somebody's distancing, somebody's pursuing, somebody's distancing.

But typically, you know, when you dig deep under underneath that, both people are feeling disconnected.

Often there's a lot of feeling of loneliness, right?

Because it can be very, very lonely be in a relationship where you are not connected to your partner, but you're living under the same roof and even sleeping in the same bed, right?

It can be very, very lonely.

And then if you dig even deeper under there, you'll find out, or I'll find out that there's been a lot of.

They're in a pattern because all couples get into patterns.

And those patterns started very early on in the relationship, almost always, and that they.

Their.

They're not finding each other, you know, in this pattern, and that there's been a lot of conflict that hasn't been repaired, right?

And so underneath it, like, there's some resentment that's going on.

There's some anger that's going on.

If you constantly get rejected, you're hurt.

If you're criticized by a lot, a lot by your partner, you're hurt, right?

If you're not feeling desired by your partner, you're also hurt.

So there's a lot of underlying conflicts at happen that have never been addressed.

They just get swept under the rug.

And that is a problem because they don't go away.

They never go away.

They just keep on building up and up and up over time, and you keep on repeating the same pattern and hurting each other over and over again.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And here one.

One more thing is like shame, right?

It sits somewhere near that total of intimacy, right?

The struggles and not always named, but often disguised as something else, like avoidance distance.

So how does shame operate in the intimacy space?

Like, how do you begin to create that enough safety for someone who has actually put it down?

Yeah, well, that is the basis of the work that I do.

It's the basis.

I'm just gonna do a little show and tell for a moment.

It's the basis of my new book, the Sex and Intimacy repair Kit, as well.

Right.

Which is really about, like, how do we recreate or maybe for the first time, create the emotional safety that a couple needs to have in order to be able to even say, I'm feeling shame about that.

You know, you're putting pressure on me to have an orgasm, just putting this out there.

But I have a hard time with that, and I'm ashamed to even admit that to you and to tell you that maybe there's something that I need differently.

Right.

But you can't say that if you don't have the emotional safety in the relationship, because there's a lot of fear that it's going to be used against you in the future.

Which we do.

Right.

Especially around sex.

We.

We use challenges.

You know, we use it as.

Some sex is often used as manipulation, as transact.

Right.

None of these things create emotional safety.

If anything, they create a lot of emotional distance and fear.

Right.

And so.

But again, you know, number one, these are skills that everybody can learn, which is why I wrote the book, so that people get it.

Like, these are skills.

You're not born this way.

Right.

And generally nobody's taught us these things about, how do you be a good.

How can you be a good listener?

What does empathy actually feel like and the importance of that in the context of a relationship.

Right.

And how, you know, we have a tendency when a partner has a problem, to try to fix it because we're all fixers.

But that doesn't actually fix it.

It makes it worse.

Right.

Yeah.

So we have to recreate that from.

From the get go.

Right.

And.

And by being present, by establishing eye contact with each other, by opening up the space for a little bit of vulnerability to share our feelings.

I agree.

So what you're saying is it's definitely kind of accumulated silence, like things that were never said, that were never named.

Right.

Vulnerabilities that were protected for so long that they became walls.

Right now.

So, I mean, yes.

I mean, the work of intimacy is partly the work of dismantling those walls carefully enough that both people feel safe in what's underneath.

So, yes, definitely.

Definitely.

That is A skill.

I would say that's a.

Definitely a skill.

Yes.

And, but, but, you know, I mean, I'm really good at it.

But it's.

There are, there are aspects of this, There's.

There are pieces of this that, you know, everybody can learn.

Right, exactly.

And it's important that we learn those skills in order to have like a healthy relationship with somebody and a good.

Yeah, no, exactly, definitely.

And your passionate intimacy retreats brings couples together in a dedicated space to do this book.

And I'm curious about what happens in that container that can't quite happen in everyday life, even in the.

With the best intentions, like.

Yeah, I mean.

Yeah, I mean, if you can share a bit.

Yeah, of course.

You know, I started doing private intimacy treats here in Asheville about seven years ago.

Right, right in the middle.

Right in the beginning of the pandemic.

Okay.

And what I found is that when you give couples and a very intense immersive experience where there's no distractions, as in their children aren't there, their dogs aren't there, there's no television to disturb them, right.

They can really focus on each other.

They can have the experience of what's it like to actually be with each other over, you know, a four or five day period of time and learn how to reconnect, have that emotional connection that they're actually been missing and work on problems that show up during the coaching, during the retreat, in real time.

Because, you know, when you've got somebody in your office for six hours, right.

Not two, maybe over two days, their stuff as you're working with them is going to show up.

Whether I'm teaching them how to, how to have a conversation about how they want to be touched and then demonstrating different types of touch and having them try it, and then all of a sudden one person gets triggered.

True.

It's like, you're not doing it right.

That's not what I want.

Blah, blah, blah.

Right.

Like their stuff shows up.

Right.

Which is beautiful because then we have an opportunity to like, okay, let's dig into this.

Right.

Let's work on this.

Why is this showing up?

What.

What's going on here?

This is a pattern.

This has been having happening for years and it's never been fully explored and maybe it's never been.

It ends up being a pattern and a conflict that's never been fully repaired.

So that's a huge advantage to be able to, able to do immersive work is that you're showing up in real time with all of your stuff and the Opportunity to have me there to help coach them through it and unpack it and repair conflict or whatever it is that's happened.

I think that's why the retreats, the people who go on retreats end up having a very powerful experience because it's not like coming in for therapy once a week and then going back to your life.

Right.

In addition, they have a lot of time to integrate what we've talked about, what we've worked on, and to experiment back in their, you know, beautiful space and again, come back in the next day and say, like, this worked, but this didn't work.

Didn't work.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's like, for someone who is listening, who cannot attend a retreat, whether for practical or financial reasons.

Yeah.

What do you think are the most meaningful practices you would recommend for a couple who genuinely wants to begin rebuilding intimacy in their everyday life?

Okay, well, here's my.

Here's my.

The book, right.

Because the book actually has, I don't know, something like 30 different practices in it that will take you through depending upon where you are in the relationship and what the struggle is that will help you start to reconnect with each other.

You know, so just being present with your partner, like putting the phone down, that's a huge, you know, challenge for a lot of people, obviously.

Right.

Just putting the phone down and looking at your, looking, you know, facing your partner and creating some eye contact and being with them for five minutes is one of the most powerful and challenging things because it's incredibly vulnerable to do that with a partner.

But it does bring up emotions and it brings up, you know, connection.

So there's little things that you can do that are actually incredibly, incredibly powerful.

So I would say, you know, start there.

I also, you know, I offer a lot of free resources, but I'm.

I also have a new couples group program as well, which is also an immersive experience at a much lower price point over a 90 day period of time.

Right.

So, you know, there's other ways to be able to, with me at least to work.

Exactly.

And, and couples who do the work to the retreat, who starts the conversations, who begin to, I'd say, who begin to rebuild.

So what tends to happen when they return to normal life?

Well, it kind of depends on the couple.

A lot of times I offer couples some continuing support because, you know, the reality is you come to any type of immersive experience, you have a big expansion and you're going to go back into contraction.

When you come back into your real life and your Patterns will reemerge.

So some couples do need some continued support and accountability.

That's very, very common in any type of immersive kind of experience that, that people have.

But there are many couples who, for whatever reason, and I don't know the what the what is, but for whatever reason, are able to really retain where they were.

Like, I just talked to somebody the other day who came to one of my Costa Rica retreats, and they were on the verge of leaving the retreat.

They were having such issues.

But, you know, through doing some private work with me and then really like the process of the group being there to support both of them.

Right.

Which is one of the beautiful things about doing a group retreat, is that there's a lot of other people who are there to support you.

They had this amazing, amazing shift in their relationship, and that was in February.

This is what we're almost in May, April.

Right.

And they were like, yeah, things are still great.

Like, we're really talking to each other.

And so, you know, it.

A lot of couples are just able to see that switch.

They feel that intense connection that they haven't felt in such a long time.

And they're like, we need more of this.

Right.

We, we've learned what Janae had to teach us.

We've have her book in case we need it.

We have her on, you know, dial if we need message her.

But, but, but we really took it in and shifted things in our relationship that is not infrequent.

Amazing, amazing.

I mean, that's such an honest and important things to address.

And because intimate disconnection is really filled, I would say, equally by both people at the same time.

And the one who is feeling it most acutely often doesn't know how to bring that, I mean, that their partner along without feeling, like, pressure, criticism.

So that's really great.

Yeah.

So, Zain, like, this one is for the person who is listening right now, maybe they'll be listening who is in a relationship that used to feel alive and doesn't anymore.

So who misses that connection they once had, but is not sure, like, it's still possible to get back on it or not.

So what do you want them to hear right now?

I want them to hear that all of this is fixable.

Right.

Like, you know, there, there's, there's, you know, unless you're on the verge of even verge of separation.

I've, I've helped a lot of couples come back from the verge of separation.

Right.

You know, none of this is set in stone.

Relationships change over time.

Yeah.

But what's important to understand is it takes two.

I like to say this.

It takes two people to break a relationship.

It also takes two people to repair a relationship.

Right.

So both partners, you know, really need to be on board and aware of like, wow, there's some challenges here and we need to make some changes whether we need to seek support or we need to read some books.

You know, that's what I want them to hear.

Like don't, don't feel like there's no hope.

There's hope.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so if someone wants to connect with you personally, how they can connect,.

They can come to my website which is Passionate Intimacy retreats with an S.com passionateintimacyretreatss.com and then you can find out how to work with me, get free resources, all sorts of.

All sorts of information that you'll find there.

My blogs.

Amazing.

Amazing.

So, dear listeners, like I. I would love to say that if I could hold one thing from this conversation today, it would be that fashion is a long term relationship and not something that either exists or does not.

But it is something that can be chosen and rebuilt.

Right, so.

And rebuilt.

Right, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, for sure.

And it starts with the courage to want it again.

So that, that is much important.

So the listeners, I mean this is, this is the wrap for today's episode.

If something Zeny said today landed for you a recognition or maybe a quite wish or something that you have been feeling but not quite saying out loud, then take that seriously.

It actually matters the most.

And as I said, all of Zenith's details will be there in the show notes.

And if this conversation belongs in, I mean in someone else's world right now, please share it with them gently the way a good conversation deserves to be passed on.

So that way you are helping someone as well.

So with this hope, this is your host, Avik and this is Mindmates machine.

Intimacy is not a luxury, it's a part of what makes us whole.

Right, so exactly.

So take care of yourselves and yes, ourselves as well.

So ourselves and yourselves as well.

And each other.

So see you soon in the next one.

Thank you so much.