Welcome to The Mind Body Marathon: the podcast that puts you on a path to a healthier lifestyle–whether you’re a daily runner or just finding your footing.

Today’s episode is all about injuries: how we can avoid them, how to recover from them, and the psychological and physiological impacts they can have. Our host, running expert Dr. Leo Kormanik, is joined by two colleagues from Ohio Sports Chiropractic, Dr. Matthew Pisanelli, also a chiropractor, and Zach Goulet, a licensed massage therapist. 

As athletes themselves, they share their own stories of overcoming significant injuries, emphasizing how these experiences cultivated a stronger appreciation for health and a proactive approach to life. The conversation transitions into a detailed discussion about the evolution of sports therapy, including the shift towards more effective injury management techniques and the role of technology in tracking recovery.

Matt and Zach share their histories of severe injuries, both personal and professional, dissecting the physical and psychological impacts these have on athletes. They also share their expert strategies for coping with and recovering from injuries, stressing the importance of understanding the body's signals and adopting comprehensive recuperation practices, including mindful meditation, and quality sleep hygiene.

Remember to tune in next week for more insights aimed at helping you lead a healthier, more balanced life. Your health is a marathon, not a sprint, and the Mind Body Marathon is here to help you set the pace. 

Key Takeaways

1. Gratitude and Proactivity: A distressing experience, such as a serious injury, can be transformative, fostering a sense of gratitude and a more proactive attitude toward health and life in general. This shift in perspective is crucial for long-term wellness and success in any field.

2. Evolution of Sports Therapy: The field of sports therapy has seen significant advancements over the years, with techniques such as foam rolling and manual therapy becoming more mainstream in managing injuries effectively. These developments underscore the importance of staying informed and adaptable to new health practices.

3. Injury Awareness and Management: Understanding the difference between normal muscle soreness (DOMS) and injury pain is vital for proper self-care. Our guests highlighted the importance of acknowledging pain signals without fear, using appropriate pain scales, and adopting strategies that prevent injury aggravation.

4. The Psychological Impact of Injuries: Injuries not only affect physical capabilities but also challenge mental resilience. The discussions elucidate the psychological struggles athletes face during injuries and the importance of mental toughness and strategic psychological approaches, such as mindfulness and positive thinking, in overcoming these hurdles.

5. Importance of Sleep and Recovery Quality sleep and proper rest are foundational for effective injury recovery and overall health. The podcast covered various strategies to enhance sleep quality, including setting the right room temperature, using reliable sleep-tracking devices, and engaging in calming pre-sleep routines.

Alright, everyone. This is the Mindbody Marathon Podcast, and I'm your host, doctor Leo Kormanic, and I'm a sports chiropractor here at Ohio Sports Chiropractic.

I'm, doctor Matthew Pisanelli. I've been at the company for about 9 years now.

And I'm not a doctor. My name is Zach Goulet. I'm the massage therapist here. I own my own, massage therapy practice, ZG Sports Massage Therapy. And I've been in practice for 5 years. Yeah.

That's about right. Actually. So we all work together and, so, you know, part of what we do is we manage running injuries, and that's kind of our gig. Obviously, we treat other sports as well, but we're all runners so that's kind of the community we're mainly connected in. And, you know, I, often joke that we see the dark side of running, which is basically, you know, all the running injuries and the frustration that comes with that.

All the negative aspects of running.

Yeah. All the negative aspects of running. You know, we hear all the sob stories all day long and we work hard and, and valiantly to get people back running. So here, I wanted to kinda have a episode about injuries and just kind of, like, letting everybody know like, we understand what it's like, you know, we've all been there. You know, I personally was injured about 60% of my career in college, And then I don't think there was a year period where I was running consistently at a high level that I wasn't injured. So I was injured more often than not. And that's ultimately what inspired me to get into this profession is understanding injuries and understanding how to manage them. But yeah.

So doctor Matt, you know, what some of your insight on that?

Yeah. So same thing kinda with me, but even earlier. I started getting into the health field because I was a cross country and track runner, and I basically tore my hamstring, the semitendinosus, which is one of the inside hamstring muscles, completely off of the bone. And was supposed to run for the University of Akron and contacted the coach and told him what happened. He's like, I don't want you to run for me ever again. And, so I

Was that a brutal thing to say?

It was in 2,005, the spring, really at districts.

Just

heard a pop and fell down, and the worst part of the injury was getting track rash, a week before prom.

Track rash.

Right before prom, but, because my date where was it at? I actually don't was it at, I'm talking where was the track rash at? Oh, all down the side of my face

and all

on on on my arm.

That's so when I see that prom picture.

And, yeah. I mean, it looked horrible, but, basically, coach at the time was in between transitions in between Labatee, and, Jones. And so they just said, nope. We don't want you to run. So and I was like, well, I'll just train and walk on. He's like, even if you, you know, like, beat the qualifying times, I don't want you. You're too much of a risk. So I kinda gave up on running until my junior year of college and then, started back into training and got into half marathon training.

Leo, did you get injured in high school a lot too?

No. Actually so in high school, I was not taking running serious at all. We I didn't come from a program that had a very successful tenure. So for me, you know, when I was in, high school, I'd say I probably ran 15, 20 miles a week, and I would take weeks off, like, just for no reason in the middle of the season. And so, very undertrained in high school. And then I did my senior year, I did long jump, just for fun at, like, some meat just some rickety meat just to have fun, and then I tweaked my knee. And that was, like, the only Andre I had had in high school.

Yeah, dude. Like, when I when I was in high school, like, I would say we probably had a similar path. Like, I got injured one time in high school, and it was when I decided to go full time running. Like, I quit football after my sophomore year and then ran cross country and track and just, like, full time running. And then it was my senior year of cross country that I got my first injury, I got a deep hip flexor strain. And I was like, so like, devastated and upset. And so after the season, I got online, it was, like, 2,009. So it's just like Google, like, like, runners world map, like magazine.

And it was like, to not be injured, eat healthier, and go into the gym. And I was like, alright, well, I'll start eating healthier and going into the gym.

That's actually good advice.

And it was great advice. And, like, I was probably the most well rounded at the end of high school. But then when I got to college, I was like I was like, whatever. I'm past that now. And then I always would say that my college career was like a roller coaster. A lot of high highs, a lot of low lows. And, yeah, I would say probably 60 to, like, 70% of my college career, I was injured. And I remember, like, just in my profession alone, like, being a massage therapist, like, we had, this massage therapist on staff, Rosalie Franek.

And she was doing, like, a graduate study on the on the performance effects of consistent 30 minute sports massages. And I was one of her, her test subjects, and I fell in love with it. And so on my end, like, looking at more injury prevention, because I feel like going to you guys is more like, I'm going there for an injury when you come to me. It's like, alright. Let's prevent this from happening again. Yeah. It was it's just it's crazy how, like, some of those, like, key concepts that we use now were concepts that we were thinking of. It's just it got lost in the Yeah.

Translation of everything.

Yeah. Guys think because your training in college and taking it to the next level, was that the reason why you were more

It's just a big jump. I mean, like the that aspect? Yeah. A 100%. Like, just a huge jump. You know, Malone, the which is the score I ran for, they we had a really gifted runners when I was there, and, you know, to be on the team, you just had to run the mileage, and it was a nonnegotiable. So

And we were in a build. So we were we were the dirt of the Mac. Like, we were terrible. Like, when I got there, we like my freshman year at Akron, we got 2nd to last in the Mac. And I remember after that race, I ran terrible. And the and my coach came up to me and he was like, you know, some people just aren't made to run vision 1 and I'm like, I'm gonna prove you wrong. But then on top of that, you know, I, yeah, put in probably a ton of work. My body wasn't adapted to it that I had to be.

And, yeah, I just, like, I ebbed and flowed. Like, when I was on, I was on. But when I wasn't and, like, my my teammates would always say like, Zach, you could get in shape in, like, 2 weeks and do this, like, insane workout. And then the next day you're injured again. And then it's just like this, like, cycle. And it definitely I mean, for me, my college experience made me interested on, like, why do we get injured? Like, why does this happen? Yeah.

Well, luckily for me, going to a smaller school, even though we had a lot of really good runners, we always had, more of a longer timeline because we did have so many in the pipeline, if you will. And so the coach was just like like, I want you to be really good by your junior, senior year, like so we we basically you know, yeah, your freshman, sophomore year, everybody sort of takes some knocks and it's just kinda getting used to the volume and the workload. But then by my junior, senior year, and 5th year, I mean, I was, like, all in on running. And that really inspired me to keep running after college, which then kinda carried on for about another decade of of competing at a decently high level. But, you know, if it wasn't for that, like, long arc, where as I know, like, a lot of division 1 programs, like, they just kinda wanna just use and abuse you sort of thing, and just, like, get get the basically get the times out of you and just not really care about long term running and just I see it a lot and people just get discouraged and they just quit. I think sort of, like, having at a smaller school, the other thing that changed my mind about a lot of things and got me into the profession or thinking about this profession was we didn't have good athletic trainers, and we didn't have very good access to facilities. So you kinda had to figure out your injuries on your own, and you sort of had to figure out, like, you know, what are some ways that I can heal myself and just kinda manage things on that end. And then that just sort of, like, at the wheels turning, like, oh, I think I kinda wanna be in the trenches with the athletes, and I can obviously, from a psychological perspective, sort of, like, relate to them.

And so, yeah, that's kinda how I ended up here.

When you were going through, like, your undergrad and, like, going through, like, studying the human body and all that stuff, did you have that, like, any point, like, question your athletic trainers? Like, why,

like, why are we doing that?

Like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, did you, like, catch on to that at all?

I would say no because I never really went to them after

Dude, I'm out.

Kinda just, like, they're what are they gonna do? Just hand you ice until you go to the try to Just muscle stem on there? Yeah. So you just kinda you're, like you know how to, like, navigate around that.

On on that flip side, when right before you would have started college, so Zach and I went to the same college, I had started out in athletic training program, so I got to see the back end of it where I was watching the athletic trainers. And after 1 semester of of working with them and I worked with a very good athletic trainer because I got put on the, soccer team. And for those that don't know, Akron soccer team in the early 2000, even into the mid 2000, were pretty much top 4 ranked in the nation for almost 10 years. And so I got to see them really work well with the athletes individually for about 5 minutes and then just get really not great care, you know, you know, with like, oh, just like put ice on it or stem. And then it's just like, well, this is like a complete actual injury. I just watched this guy completely, like, take a cleat to the, like, kneecap or something like that. And then you're like, oh, do this cool exercise that I've never seen.

Yeah.

That's the only thing that I can give you, and then just put ice on it.

Yeah. Well, you know, what's interesting though is the everything has changed so much. Like, I mean, people cup themselves. Oh, yeah. You know? People boom roll. People mobilize. They voodoo band, and I think it's awesome. And I told my patients to do all that stuff.

But that stuff, like, literally I remember my sophomore year, Malone. He's in our coach, brought a foam roller roller to us and was like, yeah. I heard about this at USA track convention, and you kinda roll on it and release your muscles. And that was, like, the advent of, like, the foam roller. Like, that was, like, 2 decades ago, so things have come a long way.

It's crazy.

And it it is wild. And that this was interesting thing about what we do here is because we focus so much on manual therapy and we focus so much on, like, directly treating the injuries, we can often manage a lot of things that most people don't think you can manage. Like, they a lot of people think, oh, I just can rest and it'll be fine, and and and here we can really get through if you work the tissue right. We can really get through and and heal things a lot quicker. Yeah. On that kind of on that front, like, what some of the craziest things you've seen over the years with running?

Oh, just a lot of tears, of different things. A lot of labral tears, in both the shoulder and the hip. One specific I can remember, would have been in 2015, we worked the Arnold Classic, and I had, it's a CrossFit competition, that we we specifically are treating at. And I had a female, you know, probably in her mid twenties or so come up to me, and she's like, oh, can you work on my shoulder? And so I don't know what prompted me because we were just slammed. Like, we're seeing patients, like, literally every 10 minutes just doing soft tissue treatment. And we've got a line that that's backed up for, like, 20 people. And so I, like, look at that.

I wasn't there.

Was that the year we met Arnold?

Yeah. Yeah. That was the year that we met Arnold Yeah. Where we got the black shirts. And so we're I'm work I'm I I look at this girl and I do a test, and I'm like, you have horrible things going on your shoulder. And she's like, oh, yeah. I know. Like, I'm having surgery next week.

And I was like looking at the workout and it's like so much overhead pressing with, like, crazy amounts of weight. I was like, I don't feel comfortable actually working on your shoulder. Like, it doesn't need to be loosened up at all.

Yeah. She's having surgery next week.

Right. And that's the thing. If you're losing it, you destabilize it.

And so finally, she's like, but I I I'm just not gonna be able to do the lift correctly. And I'm like, fine. Like, I just gave her I was like, look. I'm just telling you this is gonna end up bad. So I I work on her shoulder for, you know, 10 minutes and everything kinda going light. And then, you know, she goes off and lifts and she comes back and she's I was like, how did you do? And she's like, I PR ed in, like, every single lift. And I was like, that's incredible. And I was like, how do you feel? And she's like, I can't feel my arm.

It's completely numb. And I was like, oh my gosh. Now not only do you have to have, like, labral surgery repair, but now you're gonna have, you know, definitely some, like, nerve injury

as well. Plexus stuff going on.

And that same same event too. Remember the guy who had, like, that crazy ruptured Achilles that you worked on? Yeah. His I've never seen an ankle.

His foot was just flapping around.

Then in such a degree.

Well, what's interesting about that, like, you know, you think, okay. Yeah. If somebody ruptures an Achilles, you know, you'd think you would know, but you don't always know. I've actually had a couple patients, you know, running on the trail and, like, twist their ankle and they're like, oh, I heard a pop. But then they kinda finish the run, and the thing you have to think about is, like, there's met there's multiple ligaments that come or tendons that come off of the shin and ankle and cross into the foot, so that can still push off and then make you think it's not actually torn. But they come into the office, and it's, like, really easy to spot. But I I would say one of the craziest things I saw was that, you know, I had this ultra marathoner, and he was in, he was in the Iraq war. And he, at some point, you know, was in a helicopter, and he said he kinda fell out.

Not from a super high distance, I think it was like landing and he kinda like fell out, but he like fell onto a rock, and he literally tore his glue off of the bone. And so on his one side, he, like, literally had, like, no glue. It was, like, flat. It was, like, just like a hip bone back, and he was running ultras. He was running a 100 miler. And he's like, shockingly, I have no pain ever on that side. The other side which bears a little bit more weight tends to get a little bit more of the issues, but

could he build that up? Like, to get to a normal state?

See the MRI. I mean, I don't I don't even know. Like, I mean, I'm sure they tried to reattach it. It's kind of a crazy thought. That sounds like an awful lot of people do. Like, totally deformed. Like Yeah. It's the coolest thing.

That's crazy.

What about you?

I don't see a lot of, like, crazy injuries. I'll be honest, because I really don't wanna see them because it's it needs to be out of my like, if you have an injury, see me after it gets to a point of healing. Yeah. But honestly Well, what about your crazy injury? You had

you had one recently. Tell tell us about that.

Yeah. So, I ran the burning river 50 miler, and it went horrible from the get go. Not feeling good at all from the start. I remember, like, not even, like, a mile into the race. I was like, I'm running a 50 mile today. Like, this sucks.

Well, to elaborate, that morning of I was gonna watch him run, and I was desperately looking online to see if it was canceled because there was, like, a tornado that was happening at the time. I Yeah.

It was, like, severe thunderstorms and, like, tornado. And I remember the ultra rep was like, dude, only an ultra marathoning would there be tornado warnings, and they still gotta get this race off. Like, no no other, like, event, nothing would happen. But, yeah, like, I just felt super heavy. Didn't feel, like, fresh at all. Like, completely, like, I I think I was not recovered from training. And then, yeah, at mile 36, I felt a what felt like I jammed my 3rd toe. And I'm, like, walking with this guy and, like, I'm like, dude, I think I jammed my toe.

I gotta I gotta run this one off. So I like take off and this was like, Nope, it just got worse. And then, yeah, by like mile 40, 45, it was just like sharp pain going into like the back of my ankle, limping, not running at this point, 5 miles of just like hobbling along. Bro had a stress fracture.

Yeah.

I had a stress fracture.

So, yeah, that one, I I air on the side of stupidity on that one. Like

Yeah. But it's a great story.

It is. It is. And I'm and I'm happy I did it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy I did it.

Yeah. I mean, I think that I think that's cool. I mean, pumping you up a little bit and now you got a great story.

But But honestly, I think the craziest injury that I've ever seen was that guy who dislocated his shoulder at that track event.

Do not mean to laugh about that, but

It came out of nowhere.

We were we were at this track meet. We're having a good time massaging people and and getting people ready to race and everything, and then all of a sudden, it's like this The race hasn't even started. The race is yeah. They were doing a few other months. It's just It was an adult track night. So there was, like, you know you know, not your typical college and high school kids competing. And so people that probably hadn't laced up spikes in potentially even decades. So, you know, he's out there long jumping and or was it it was long No.

He was doing block starts. Yeah.

He was

doing block starts. He wasn't even long jumping yet. He's doing block starts and he puts his arm down and boom, his shoulder pops right out and unbelievable discomfort comes over to our tent. It was really sad to see because we couldn't put it back.

Yeah.

So we had to get him out. But that was that was wild, for everyone involved. And we we got a table that was damaged in the process too.

That was a crazy day, actually. Because then that that one kid Yeah.

At the very end. So that started to meet. And then, so we're like, okay. So for next year, we should probably should have all this support. Well, at the end of the meet, everybody's wrapping up and leaving, and then I kinda was wanting to be the last one out of there because I just had a feeling that day was just not right. Something was clunky, you know, maybe Mercury was in retrograde or something like that. But, so then sure enough, the literally these 2 kids were racing each other and then one kid They

were like playing tag or something like that.

I think, yeah, it's something weird on the track and then he fractures his hip. He's reeling on the ground screaming, and I go over and I put my hand on his hip, and it makes it feel better. And I'm like, you know, he got an a bulge fracture of his growth plate and It was a wrap on the night. Just a wrap on the night. Everybody leave. Just I'm just gonna stay, you know. Like, let's get out of here.

Hold hands.

Lock the doors. Nobody's allowed answers.

Like that character in Charlie Brown where there's all the always this stuff laying around them. It's Like, I felt like that meat had that going on.

So, Leo, what would be your dumbest injury that you've had? Like, either

Personally or personally? Yeah. Personally?

Yeah.

Well, probably my, worst injury ever, which was my mountain biking accident. So when I was 20, I was recovering from knee surgery, and so I was like, alright. Well, do some mountain biking, and I was going down. So I would typically go to this, like, area in Akron, which had a couple trails, but they're all just basically downhill stuff and just hitting ramps. So I go and I don't have a helmet on and I don't have a shirt on, and then I hit a ramp, and then I go over the top and I, like, land like this, and then my hand ends up over here. And then completely deformed, and I had to get, like, skin grafts on my back, so my back looks like I was, like, whipped in certain parts. And I was in the hospital for a couple days. It was terrible.

So you've had more hand injuries than I think I

I know, and it's crazy because I treat with my hand. Yeah.

It's so wild. Like that one with the desk?

Oh, yeah. So I was like and yeah. So that's right. I forgot about that one.

It was a crazy thing.

I was I had this old house at one point in, in Akron, and so I was moving this, like, wood thing in the basement that's, like, wood desk, and then nobody would I was living alone at the time. And then, all of a sudden it, like, slides out and my hand is, like, on the ground, and then the desk comes wham and, like, smacks it and, like, pops it, like, clean. And so the bone was like this, like, immediately, like, sticking out.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's rough.

Practitioner's worst nightmare.

I know. And it was. Yeah. We made it though. We we got through it.

I did all the physical treatment.

I scraped everybody, and we got through it. Yeah. I mean, the the biggest thing about injuries, and I I think kinda, you know, giving people some actual actionable items with this is, like, you know, obviously, we're chatting about our injuries and we've experienced it. And and I think the biggest thing is the psychological aspect is understanding, you know, when people come into the clinic, it's like, look, I know what's going on. I know what the diagnosis is. So that's critical. So wherever you are, it's critical you get it properly diagnosed. It's, shocking how that's not common.

People get things misdiagnosed all the time. So getting diagnosis, getting a game plan, you know, trying to heal and rest on your own is is frustrating because oftentimes in that, you feel like a victim and it's better if you just do something. It's better if you go to a doctor. It's better if you get an image. It's better if you have a conversation about it, and and not just wait it out because then you're given you're given a game plan, how you feel like the ball's in your court, you know, you're not you're not a victim to it anymore, and so psychologically it puts you on the offense. And so I think that's one of the biggest things that I try to instill in my patients that come in is is, you know, just get like I said, getting on offense, like, getting not letting this injury define you, and and let's be proactive against it.

And and I think, like, to kinda go off that too, like, if I see somebody that is, like, post op, like, labrum or, like, has, like, a disc issue, and they'll go, like, you know, I got the surgery, and, like, I'm just I don't feel like I'm any better. It's like, well, treatment still has to be a thing. Like, you still have to get treatment. Just because you had the surgery doesn't mean that, like, it's gonna be a magical cure. Maybe for some people, yeah. But, like, on the back end of that, you still need to do rehab. And I think that's something that I was naive when I was going through my injuries. It was, like, not doing rehab.

I would just rest. And then actually, I just remember how crazy this was. We would be at practice, and we would be thinking about what we have to do to not get into the position of being injured again. So we have to take away all those extra things. And I remember thinking, like, well, I need to not, like, lift anymore because I need to be running. So, like, lifting takes away from running. Mhmm. And I need to be, like, not doing this and, like, how backwards that thought process was.

Again, it's insane for me to even think that I thought that because it's just, like, not in my, like, vocabulary or, like, my, like, thought process anymore to say something like that.

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, you know, like like like we're saying is the the psychology aspect is is the first thing to sort of capture and and and then the game plan aspect.

Yeah. I think a lot with my spine patients too. Like, just hearing, like, you know, for those that don't know, like, I had a really bad neck injury, and that's been going on for, like, 2, 3 years now. And just me being open and talking about it, like, I could not even touch them for the day. And just talking about, like, I have a plan for you. This is how it should go. Yeah.

Because I actually know what I know exactly what,

you know, what you're going through. I have the same memorized. I can show you my imaging. I I can show you my pain patterns. Yeah. And just without even touching them and just realizing that they're not gonna be like crippled in 2 years or or, you know, have to have, like, all these rods and all this stuff put into their, you know, into their spine. And that may be the outcome. I don't know.

But just knowing that that is, like, not going from here and tomorrow that they're gonna be signed up for surgery, it it's so relieving that honestly, sometimes, like, I don't think they even need treatment, that it's just a lot of psychological

abuse pain. True to that. Yeah. I know in my treatment room, I have all my medical files, like, sitting in the corner because I'm, like, you know, oftentimes I'll show the patient, like, I I know I literally have this injury. Like, I know exactly what's happening.

It's a great

thing to do.

Yeah. I mean, you know, but, yeah, you go you put yourself and that's and and, literally, I still mess with things. Like, I know I have a bad Achilles, and I still put myself in harm's way to kinda just tinker with things to just sort of explore the limits of it. Because I don't mind if I'm injured. I did my thing in running. Like, I I'll eventually get back to it, but I I like to experiment and see what works and what doesn't work. And here I am sidelined injured, but it's like, now I know it doesn't work. So now I can then tell patients, like, that was not a great idea, this game plan, and I really think this other game plan is better.

So I I you know, not that I'm a, an end, you know, the end of 1 dictates everything, but, you know, it tells lets patients know that I I I definitely have experienced a lot of what you a lot of what you have. But this is kind of a bringing us to an up to another point. Like, what defines an injury? Like, what specifically is an injury? Yeah.

That's a good question. Yeah.

You know, like, because Alright. We when we're running, we're pushing the envelope and we're gonna get sore and we're gonna get beat up, but, like, when does that sort of bleed over into you know, you think of the Venn diagrams. When does that sort of bleed over into, man, I gotta shut it down. This is this is too bad.

You know, like, I know that there's, like, obvious signs, like, if it's, like, pinpoint, if there's changes in your gate. But there's one that I always actually, like, find myself going back to, and I think it's the perception of what you're doing. So, like, one thing that I can kind of, like, get out of people that I see to to determine whether or not they need to see someone like you or see another specialist is, like, is your approach to, like, a normal easy run the same when you're not injured to to when you feel this discomfort? So, like, for me, anytime that I was injured, the thought of doing, like, a 2 to 4 mile run felt daunting. Yeah. It was like this, like

Yeah.

Overwhelming, like, anxiety. It was almost anxiety. Like, I felt like I had anxiety going. I was like, man, I gotta run, like, 2 miles today. Like, I'm gonna be just, like, gimping in the back, and it's gonna stink and, like

Yeah. We we have this weird thing about ourselves, like, with with, our perception of feelings is that, you know, like, for instance, say you get a pipper cut on your finger, you're you kind of always wanna, like, tug at it to see if it still hurts. Yeah. Mhmm. So the same thing if you're injured with running, like, you know, with my Achilles all day at work, I'll be, like, walking around, like, does this still hurt? I'll, like, rock up onto my toes, like, still hurts. Like, I, you know, I I, like, always assess it. You know, I think, like, that kinda goes into, like, what you're saying where you're, like, worried about how your body is going to respond out there. And then you may get away with a run or 2, but long term, it's unsustainable.

Mhmm. And you probably should get it checked out. So that's actually I like that a lot. Because I, you know, pinpoint's a critical one. You know, when it hurts, when you're resting, that's another critical one. So say you're just chilling, you know, watching, you know, movie or whatever, you're about to go to bed and your leg or arm or whatever is throbbing like crazy, that is a red flag. That puppy is probably injured and you should get that taken care of.

If the pain travels. So, like, if it initially happens, like, into top of your hamstring, and now the pain is going down towards your knee, something like that.

Yeah. That's another really cool critical one. I always always like to say too, on the pain scale, you know, which is a 0 to 10, 10 being the worst pain you could imagine. So if the on the pain scale, it sits right around a 4 or 5 out of 10. That that basically speaks to me that that's probably injured and not just, you know, delayed onset muscle soreness. Which again, you know, DOMS or delayed on onset muscle soreness is basically whenever you kinda surpass your capacity to adapt to that stimulus. So say you run farther than ever or you lift more weights than ever, then the next day or 2, you're going to be more sore. An injury is different than that.

An injury sort of lingers longer, it behaves differently. It almost hurts more when you're not using it sometimes, you know, which is I think another critical piece.

Yeah. And also just know that pain scale slides too. You know, especially for somebody who's had multiple injuries, like, that pain scale is gonna be way skewed compared to, you know because they're just gonna be more scared and afraid of of something. So if you just came off of an Achilles injury and now your knee's bothering you on the opposite leg or something, you're gonna that pain scale is gonna ramp up so much to where what probably is a 3 out of 10 pain might be a 6 because you're like, oh my gosh. I'm just breaking down and

Well, that's a that's a really good point too. It's like, I always say this is a classic saying that to my patients is that injuries beget injuries. So injuries create injuries, and and that has to do with compensation. So that kinda goes back to your point where you're if you're altering your gait or limping, you know, that's without a doubt going to, like, flare up an area of the body that's different than that. A lot of people will go, oh, you know, like, it's fine after a mile or 2, and then it warms up. Right? But for a mile or 2, you are literally running wrong, and that will lead to something later. And is it worth it? Like, just get it checked out and get it taken care of. But also, you're more prone to injury at the beginning of a training cycle and then at the end of a training cycle.

So there's sort of those bell curve, of like injury risk where it's really really high at the beginning and really high at the end. But in the middle phase, most of us can kinda handle the volume and the workload and be generally okay with it. So when you're get kinda getting back into running, just understand that it takes a couple weeks to really get into the rhythm of it, and you are at higher risk for injury there. Then also at higher risk for injury when you're peaking. And and that's something that we can sort of delve into much much later when we talk about training theory, but but that's definitely something to consider as well.

And I think another thing to consider too is that all runners I just don't wanna say all runners, but most runners are stubborn, including myself that will train through injury. Yeah. Without a doubt. And there's something to be said about that, but go get it checked out.

Yeah. Which was my case. Right? So I had, you know, I had an Achilles issue, and I was stringing along through the fall, and, you know, where everybody here, we don't really treat each other that much. So because at by the end of the day, we're all tired. We're just trying to get out of here, and, you know, I didn't do my rehab. I'm a total hypocrite on that, and, next thing you know I'd come and kinda was playing playing with fire, and here I am injured. So it's like but I I just kept running and running and thinking it was just, like, somehow gonna go away. It's like there is a limitation to matter.

He's just centered because him and I have never had one season together training ever in

Quite literally.

In 9 years. We have What do

you mean by that?

So when we first started, we had about 4 months where we both actually got to run, like, all of our normal routes at at the office. Do those Thursday tens? Those Thursday tens and everything. And we have never actually been racing at the same time. Either he's been injured or I've been injured.

Well, let's get that fixed. Let's get that figured out. I'm trying. I'm trying.

Do you think overall, for all 3 of us, do you think, like, we when we get injured, it's way more extreme because we know so much about our own bodies that we overlook things because we think that we can either rehab it on our own or, you know, take supplements or do something. Like, I find, like, I don't ever really get like a small tweak of a muscle. It's, like, it's either, like, nothing or I'm like

I I think more to your point, I would maybe clarify it this way for me is that I know what I can push through.

Mhmm.

Yeah. And if I have a small tweak in a muscle, it phases me 0%. And then I should probably just go get a massage or just go get somebody to do active release on it, but I don't. So I wait and then these things build up and eventually they come to a head, and then boom, you're injured. So for me, I think I become very aware of what I can manage on my own, and then, for good or bad. And then, because because I like the empowering aspect of managing injuries, so I like that's what I like to do with patients. I like to help them with their home routine so they can get over the issue quicker. And I feel like I become obsessed with that.

So if I get an ache and pain, I'm like, oh, how can I get this better quicker?

Yeah.

And so that prevents me from getting adequate treatment, and then next thing you know, it all kind of comes to a head.

Oh, probably, like, 60% of our exercises that we give out or or the way that we treat is because we've experimented on ourselves.

Yeah. Quite literally. Yeah. So yeah. Well, I mean, I think, like, this was a great episode talking about injuries here. I think we kinda discovered some key points and and went through some, some good personal stories on it. And, you know, no matter where you're coming at, you know, where whether you're a long time marathoner or just trying to find your footing, no matter where you're at on the spectrum of being active and running, chances are we can we can help manage that and we can help kinda walk you through that. And so some of our ideas and some of our concepts on this show will we wouldn't always be talking about injuries.

We'll be talking about a lot of other stuff, you know, like training theory and coaching and racing and, but also some mental hacks, some biohacks as well for the for for the body and some mental hacks. So we'll be discovering a lot of these topics, but but, basically, want to sort of set the framework with the injuries because, you know, that's how we all sort of got into this realm. You know, we all sort of got here, by being injured or being burned, with this sport and, like like I said, the dark side of of running. But, to kind of last parting words here, we're gonna do kind of a little bit of a quick sprint, if you will, a little play on words here. So, just a quick little tidbit on, what what we find to be just some a quick actionable item that you can easily implement in your daily life, and and so we'll kinda go through that now.

Yeah. So rest right now. Just making sure you're getting adequate sleep. You know, also just rest meds.

What does that mean adequate? Like Adequate sleep. Like number of hours?

Yeah. Number of hours, but more importantly, restful sleep. You know, like, I've been getting routinely over the last year almost 8 to 9 hours of sleep at night, but I have a dog that likes to get up multiple times throughout the night. So even though I might get I'm I'm I'm used to be a 6 hours a night sleep person for, I mean, most of my life, but now I'm getting 3 more hours. But because I have a dog that gets up, you know, 1 or 2 times and wakes me up, it's not as restful. So it's now just trying to, like, set the tone of making sure that, like, the temperature in my room is comfortable for more him so that he doesn't get out of the bed because that's he gets overheated. And then also just setting up, you know, taking some magnesium at at night, making sure that I do some like some light meditation, just calming my brain Yeah. My brain down and everything.

Making sure that before I go to bed I'm not overly thinking about anything.

Yeah. You definitely wanna get, into those theta waves quickly by doing all that, with that deeper sleep. And I I I like that the one thing that I like to do that helps me get into, deeper sleep is read a book that is completely, like, unrelated to anything in my life. Like, it's like a story that just it's like totally unrelated. That's just a fun story, and then that way I get distracted by this story and I don't think about all the little things that I need to be doing. So that kinda helps me quite a bit. Do do you wear like a Whoop or do you wear like a Oura ring or anything that I

have an Oura ring, but they just changed their policy. And now it's, like, it's just a monthly subscription, and I just don't wanna pay it.

Because we my my wife tried the, the Oura ring, and we were not impressed with her tracking sleep.

What was it doing?

It it just was totally inaccurate. And because she had it a lot when she was pregnant, and then and then and then after when when we had Mariah.

And so How was it in like, what was it showing?

Well, so, like, she would be, like, up in the middle of the night feeding, and then it would say that she had, like, a great night sleep.

Mhmm. And, like, we're, like, that's obviously inaccurate. Like, you know, with my Garmin watch, it'll show my stress level, and I always wonder, like, it'll show, like, it like, it'll like, right now I have low stress, which is great. But sometimes it'll go to blue and it'll say rest. So I always wonder, like, if I'm, like, at home like, if I go home tonight and I'm, like, hanging out on the couch watching, like, a TV show or, like, like, reading a book or something, like, does that count that as sleep?

It yeah. They do sometimes actually. Especially if you're you're, like, really, like, say, staying up later than normal, like, on the weekend, and you're, like, really just, like, laying on the couch just chilling, like, really relaxed. It will actually mark that as sleep, and it often did that with with my wife's. Mhmm.

Yeah. I would say my Garmin's more accurate

I would say so too.

Than, like, my, you know, Apple Watch or anything like that.

Well, she has an Apple Watch now, and it actually hits way better than the Aura, but that's good to know about the Garmin. Yeah. The Aura.

But I I usually only wear cool. My Garmin watch af like, the night of, like, after a workout just to kinda monitor how I'm recovering from my

back. All the time. It's pretty neat to see. Like, we went to a comedy show on Friday, and, you know, we went out and had a few few drinks, few libations. Libations. And, like, the next day, it was like you had the worst night of sleep ever.

Yeah. It

tells me. That's it tells on you.

Yeah. Yeah.

It does. What about you? Quick sprint.

Yeah. I I always hold true to this one, and this one I've have really kept in practice for at least the last, like, year, year and a half is really just being accepting of of what your day is bringing you. Like, we all wish that it can be nicer outside. We all wish that it's, like, you know, spring time, 70 degrees, whatever. But I've really learned to, like, just accept what's being thrown at me because I think that that builds resilience. And I think, like, when you build or build resilience, then you can sort of take on really anything.

Mhmm. Yeah.

And yeah. Just So you're

not stressed about these tornadoes that are happening right now?

Hey, man. If I get swept up, I'm gone. I don't it it is what it is. I'm gone.

It's just

because there are things consistently in your day, even if it's a rotten day weather wise, or, you know, you get a flat tire or something. There's so many things to be grateful for. I mean, it it actually literally could always be worse. Right. And, you know, it's important to always kinda see the silver lining in things because people who age gracefully, man, they're really thankful, and they're very they're very cognizant of that.

Well, dude, it was like after I finished burning river. You know, got back after I wiped the tears away because I was I was emotional that day. But, like, got back showered. We went out to dinner that night and my wife was mad at me because I said this, but I was like, I'm doing it next year. And she's like, are you kidding me? You were just bawling your eyes out, like, 2 hours ago. What is wrong with you? And it's just like, no. Like, that's just that's what the day gave me.

Yeah. You know?

And I don't want to have that again.

That and we always forget how bad things actually are. 100%. It takes, like, a couple hours, and you're like, I'll do marathon again next year. Yeah.

That's crazy. I had a patient one time who came in and she's just, like, super distraught. She's, like, still slightly injured. I've been seeing her for probably, like, 5 or 6 business, which is typically a couple of appointments more than what we typically try and strive for. And she's like upset about like being 5 seconds off of her pace. This isn't a professional athlete or anything. This is a, you know, a weekend warrior type of athlete. And I forget what happened.

Something happened in the world where, like, there was a shooting. Like, I think it was during, like, the Miami, like, club shooting.

Oh, crazy time.

Yeah. And I just was like, there are people that lost their lives, like, went to a club to, like, go have fun and lost their lives. And you're complaining about 5 seconds. Yeah. Like, who the heck are you?

Like Put it into perspective. Yeah.

She got so distraught and, like, I thought I was like, well, I lost her. She'll never come back. And the next time she came in, she's like, I literally, like, reevaluate it reevaluated my whole life. Like, I like, she's like, I

I'm talking about a call to action.

And she's like, I completely realized, like, this is just something I should be grateful for being able to run. And then in, like, 2 weeks, she came back again, and she's like, oh, I'm, like, a 100% at work.

And that's the thing. That's literally was dwelling

on it

and and

and Yeah. I mean, I'm

out of this rep. My cockro got me out of this.

Yeah. Oh, dude. And that's such a good point because, like, say somebody gets, like, a really bad injury and they're like and they're like, yeah, dude. You're gonna have to take whatever time off. And they'll go and the people that I know are gonna come out of that good are like, oh, man. Well, can I bike at least? That'd be cool. Like, oh, good. That's really good.

I could still bike. That's the positive. They they're always seeing the that's, like, really good. And and people go, well, that's just not my personality. No. No. That's not true. This is a habit.

These are things happiness is not something that is a is a trait. It it's literally something you work for. It's like a fitness thing.

What happens if you lose your job? And, like, are you just gonna sit around and and sulk all day?

Yeah. You have to be proactive.

Like, I gotta go out there. I gotta grind. I gotta go get a job or I gotta sell newspapers or whatever it takes to

go and

and make this, you know, money so I can sustain my house for my kids. That's not

a good idea. You know, whatever.

You know? That was the first thing that came to my mind.

But Why is that? Because because dogs? Dogs running after you?

Or Oh, this guy.

Like what?

Newspapers are no. They're not a thing. Yeah. Yeah. But it's Unless you read them in other language. If you don't have anything else, you got some of

those people.

I do have friends that still get newspapers delivered, which is actually pretty cool. But Yeah. So my quick, call to action is, I think it's important for everybody to sort of start the day right. Matt talked about ending the day. Zach talked about acceptance. So we got the big the end of the day, we got the middle of the day, and then I think we need to start the day right. And this was completely unplanned actually. Yeah.

It was. So but starting your day right, I think, sort of means, maybe meditating a little bit, you know, breathing. I think that's really easy actionable item. So what I do is I wake up and at least 5 minutes, I'll lay on my back in the living room, so away from everybody, and I'm just in I'm usually the 1st person to wake up, so I'm just in the living room just chilling by myself. And then I go through breathing, whether it's, like, Wim Hof breathing or box breathing or, you know, dragon's breath or whatever. I'll do all these different breathing techniques, but I'm just focusing and I'm, like, realigning my mind. And I feel like if I do that, my days are you know, they're much more in control. You know? I don't feel like things are haphazard, and I don't think I feel like I I feel in control over things, and it's really interesting.

So Have you ever fallen asleep, back asleep doing that?

No. And I I think why? Because I lock into a breathing technique, which keeps keeps me in, like, box breathing or Wim Hof where there's, like, you know, you're kinda counting and you're, like, locked in. And it's that it's that starting the day right with a hyperperfusion of oxygen, but all but it's also, like, locking your mind into something Mhmm. Which allows for that focus. And then you come out of it, and you're, like, littered with oxygen, ready to go, but, also, you're really focused. And so something crazy can happen, and you're not as jarred. You're very in control.

You're ready to go.

Yeah. And You say, like,

one time, I fell asleep on the sowerite in the morning because I I wanted to get up. I wanted to get up and and start a stretching routine in the morning. And, like, I was just so tired. I gotta do it. I gotta do it. And I laid on the so right, and I was like, I'll go for, like, 2 minutes. And then, like, my wife had already left for work, which meant that I had been on it for at least 20 minutes. Were were you late to work that day? No.

Luckily, I did like Dude, you were walking like a cowboy after that. No question. Your hip flexors were not working. No. I was probably the most limber at my back has ever Well,

I think okay. So if anybody is to know, a sore is like a a device that you lay on for your hips.

It's u shaped.

And it's u shaped in the prongs that are about this long, and they dig in your abdomen, and they go right after the psoas.

Dude, you look like when you lay on that thing, you look like it got murdered.

It does. You're, like, pulling it up and, like, it's always like this stands. I'm pretty sure, like, my diaphragm would be best.

You out.

So it's it's possible you can fall asleep in the morning once you do that routine.

But

Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna try I'm gonna try it

tomorrow.

Wow. Well, I I think this is great. So I think this we're gonna wrap up the episode here. So thank you guys for being on, and, we'll have you guys back, on some of the different episodes. And so, again, this was the Mindbody Marathon podcast, and and, we, want everybody to sort of know that, these will be on our YouTube page and they'll be on Spotify and Itunes and all that. So be sure to subscribe and be sure to to give us a shout out. And and also be sure to give us feedback and and let us know what are some topics you want to hear about and some, some things you want to engage with. Because like I said, we're going to touch on quite a bit of topics and some fun stuff with regards to being healthy and living healthy.

All sports and just running. Yeah.

Yep. Exactly. So just kinda living life and helping, helping everybody live a good, healthy lifestyle.

It'll be tons of fun.

Absolutely. Thank you. See everybody.