Episode 36: Tantrum — The JudgeMental Podcast

In this episode of The JudgeMental Podcast, hosts Hugh and Christine dive deep into the latest drama from Louisville Family Court. They break down a recent order from Judge Santry, which, in their words, reads like a "temper tantrum on paper." The hosts discuss the culture of the Louisville Family Bar, judicial accountability, and the importance of due process and impartiality in the courtroom.

Key topics include:

The controversy surrounding a judge’s refusal to recuse herself after attending a partisan political event with a Guardian ad Litem involved in the case.

The blurred lines between professional relationships and conflicts of interest in smaller legal communities.

The difference between actual bias and the appearance of bias, and why the latter is enough to require recusal.

The emotional tone of judicial orders and the impact on attorneys and their clients.

Reflections on the broader issues of transparency, accountability, and professionalism in the legal system.

Hugh and Christine share candid critiques, personal experiences, and a few laughs as they call for higher standards and less drama in the courtroom. They also encourage listeners to share their own stories and experiences with the legal system.

Connect with us:

Submit your stories or learn more at judge-y.com

Download the judge-y app to join the movement for judicial accountability

Tune in for sharp insights, unfiltered opinions, and a passionate plea for justice—only on The JudgeMental Podcast.

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Oh.

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In today's episode of Louisville

Family Court, confirming every single

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person that says negative things

about them online, we've got an order.

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From the judge herself saying that

basically the Louisville Family Bar

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is one big club and y'all ain't in it.

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I mean, I, you can't make this shit up.

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Hugh: Well, I, I think

it's worse than that.

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I think, it's something, it

says something different.

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It essentially says, well, there are these

ethical rules that the movement in this

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case, who says I have to recuse myself.

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There are these ethical rules.

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That they are arguing, but those

ethical rules ignore the way

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that the Louisville Bar Yeah.

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Works.

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We are a close knit community.

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We go do things with one another.

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We go places.

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We attend political events

together and all of this stuff.

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So.

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It just wouldn't work here in

Louisville because that's how we do it.

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And that's sort of, that was the bane

of my existence when I practiced.

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Yeah.

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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I know.

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I know the rules say this.

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I know the laws say this, but

this is how we do it here.

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Works special.

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It's just the way it works here.

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Christine: Yeah.

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You know, due process doesn't comply.

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We don't have to comply

with due process here.

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We don't have to abide by

the ethical rules here.

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We don't have to comply with the law here.

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Yeah.

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We're the Louisville family bar.

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We drink together.

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Hugh: Now this one, this

one isn't, this one isn't.

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I don't think this is , the level of

what we saw with Judge Ogden and I'm

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still sting nothing, sting a little bit

from having read that emergency order.

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So I mean there is a level of, you

know, and I've seen, , some of the

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things ring true from what Judge Sentry

says in her order and they ring true.

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In most places where I've practiced

that are in very, very small towns, it

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just seems disingenuous for Louisville.

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You know, for instance, so , I've

practiced in front of judges who just

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very clearly are going to know something

about, just about anybody or anybody's

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family that practices in front of them.

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'cause they're in a

small town that happens.

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There are practicalities that

necessitate that the mere

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familiarity with one of the parties.

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Isn't automatically disqualifying.

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Christine: Yeah,

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Hugh: but

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Christine: that's like saying the

sky's blue grass is green, Kentucky is

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a commonwealth, duh and duh duh duh.

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And not to be facetious, but this is

the order in the recusal motion where

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Judge Santry was asked to recuse because

she went to a partisan political.

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Nt, what does that mean?

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Hugh: Event

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Christine: vent.

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Y'all, I don't know, with a

GAL had her arm around it.

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The GA L's running for office, which

is in and of itself horrifying because

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this GAL basically, I think violated

her obligation taking on , so much.

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But we got the recusal motion.

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The judge denied it, and you

had the perfect explanation

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for what this order was.

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Hugh: I have the perfect explanation.

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You did

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Christine: for what this was.

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You said it, I, can you not remember, you

said it was a temper tantrum on paper.

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Hugh: Oh, Lord.

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I did.

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I saw, yeah, and it's what it seemed like.

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, And I know that I, I said that

as well about the response.

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To the motion while we were

in motion hour as well.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It was just very strange to see an

emotional reaction to a motion to recuse.

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Yeah.

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So the standard is if there's

any appearance that the judge

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cannot be impartial, the

judge is supposed to recuse.

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You have an attorney who very

professionally pointed something out that

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made her client believe that the judge.

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Would not be impartial.

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Actually, the

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Christine: client found it and

reached out to the attorney.

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Hugh: Well, no, I, but I mean, I

would, what I'm talking about is in

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the motion, the attorney's motion.

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Yeah.

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The client found it,

reached out to her attorney.

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The, the attorney did what

the attorney had to do.

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Mm-hmm.

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And said There appears to be something

that caused into question the

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objectivity of this court in this

case, because of this relationship or

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this appearance at a political event

for one of the attorneys in the case.

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Mm-hmm.

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Now.

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It doesn't matter to me, and I don't

think it matters within the rules

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whether the attorney is for one of the

parties or is the GAL to the judge?

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The, , it the fact that mm-hmm.

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There could be some appearance that she

couldn't be objective regarding to A

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GAL is a different matter and doesn't,

you know, doesn't rise to the same,

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you know, it, it, it isn't it doesn't

cause for the same scrutiny, which.

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I don't know where that comes from.

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Now.

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I would imagine it doesn't come

from the law because it's not,

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there's not really any law.

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Right, right, right.

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Anywhere near that statement.

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Christine: She just makes it so

personal and there are things,

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you know, that this is a judge.

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This is.

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I'm almost more disappointed in this

order from Shelley Santry than I am in

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the Ogden thing and hear me out, because

I had, I agree, respect for Shelley.

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I felt the same way.

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I donated to Shelley's campaign.

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Shelley was what I consider to be

one of us, like she was getting

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screamed at by the TikTok judge.

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You know, I've seen her that happen.

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Or I've seen Shelley be in situations

where, you know, she wasn't

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in the quote unquote in group.

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You know what I mean?

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Oh man.

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Hugh: She was a fighter.

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Yeah.

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I loved, I mean.

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When I got over there in court and

saw that she was gonna be on the

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other side, I thought, oh, okay.

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This is gonna be harder.

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But I liked it.

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It was, she was a

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Christine: zealous

advocate for her client.

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Hugh: Yeah, she, she was

great in the courtroom.

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I thought I was happy when she reached

the bench, so I have to agree with you.

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This disappointed me more

because , it was not expected.

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And when I said a temper tantrum on

paper, he like, here's what I meant.

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If you read the motion, the motion asking

the judge to reuse is specifically.

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Here are the things that we think call in.

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Mm-hmm.

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To question the impartiality

and call for recusal ins.

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, The judge addressed that, but gave

just as much room to an argument

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that the court was displeased

with an earlier ruling mm-hmm.

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On the case.

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No

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Christine: mention of that

in the motion to recuse.

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No.

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And

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Hugh: it's that she just wants

a second bite of the apple.

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That's why she's trying to, it's.

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That's that I don't, there's

no reason to be making that

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argument in response, nor you're

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Christine: presuming intent on the

parties, which shows your actual bias.

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Hugh: I would say that it, this entire

motion, I mean this entire order, I

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think would be grounds for that motion

to be refiled if I were doing it.

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I mean, what are you gonna do?

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You're gonna make things worse.

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I don't think so.

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Nope.

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You've obviously touched a nerve.

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You've angered the judge over filing a

very professional motion for recusal.

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I would file it again because

of what's said in here.

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Oh, I

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Christine: take it straight to the

Supreme Court pursuant to that rule.

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Is it 31?

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God, I can't ever remember

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I think you can file a

motion to recuse directly.

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Hugh: Well, you can file

it to the Court of Appeals.

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Christine: I think it's the Supreme.

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I don't honestly, y'all, I I

think, oh no, you're right.

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It's the Supreme Court.

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It's the Supreme Court.

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Hugh: Yep.

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Yep, yep.

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Sorry, misspoke.

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Christine: But it's, there's two ways,

and I'm not a hundred percent sure.

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These are so rare and we'll look it in.

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We will look it up.

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And again, if we say, say

something wrong, we're not gonna

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have a temper tantrum on camera.

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We're on paper.

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But I mean, my God.

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And then you read this.

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And then she says, even counsel for

the petitioner acknowledges in her

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pleadings believe that, that she

does not believe the undersigned,

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harbors any actual bias in this case.

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Hugh: Which is not the standard.

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Christine: Not the fucking standard.

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Hugh: That's the exact that it,

the standard says it doesn't.

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You don't have to show actual bias,

the appearance, or that any reasonable

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person might feel that there could

be some bias or you couldn't be.

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Objective is enough for

the judge to recuse.

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And so she's arguing

actual bias, and she's

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Christine: arguing the wrong law.

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She's stating the wrong law.

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Then she goes on to talk about just dude.

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I mean, she basically just

says she's got a conflict with

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every person that, Shelley, you

need to recuse from this case.

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You need to, you need to inhale.

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You need to exhale 30 times in a row,

and you gotta get it together, okay?

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Because you can't be

treating people like this.

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Hugh: She, she basically points out other

things that would call into question.

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Impartiality.

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In her order specifically, she says,

ironically, the undersigned quite recently

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wrote a glowing letter of recommendation

for the petitioner's counsel.

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Is this petitioner suggesting that this

prior act of professional mentorship

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could also create the basis for recusal?

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Well, yeah.

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Christine: Now,

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Hugh: yeah, absolutely,

and it certainly could.

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Now.

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Christine: Well, and this

is where, you know, I try.

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And I know some people, I'm theatrical,

but I try to really deescalate,

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like I get a lot of people that'll

comment stuff in my stuff, you

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know, really radicalized by certain

advocacy groups and things like that.

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And I try not to get involved,

but we have to follow the law.

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But you have a judge blatantly

saying the Louisville Family Bar is a

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small, close knit and collaborative.

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No.

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Okay.

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First off, if that's the case, no wonder

everyone online is like It's a conspiracy.

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It's a cabal.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Everybody's in, in on it.

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Yeah.

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Which is what we hear all the time, which

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Christine: we're not collaborative.

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You idiots.

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We are lawyers.

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We're litigators like seriously,

we're not holding hands and braiding

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each other's hair, saying kumbaya.

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It says,

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Hugh: petitioner's motion

completely ignores the practical

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realities of this jurisdiction.

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In other words.

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It's different in Louisville.

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We all go do things together.

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We're friends.

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We go to lunch with one another.

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We post it all over social media.

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We go on trips together.

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, We go to political campaigns events that

we probably shouldn't be at anyway with

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people that are appearing in front of us.

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Yeah, and you're right.

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I'm glad that they finally admit

that those things were going on.

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Those have been a problem

for a very long time.

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You know, now , we've got an order from

a judge that, oh, by the way, yeah.

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That is how it is here.

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By way, way, yeah.

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This, we think we're different.

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We're gonna, we're gonna act differently.

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And this is just how it works here.

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Christine: And this is, you

know, I go like, Louisville,

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you're a fucking failure.

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In one of the podcasts that just

came out, and it is to some degree,

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I practiced in small towns and we

had a lot of problems there too.

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But actual conflict, appearance of a

conflict and this, this is so retaliatory.

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I feel so bad.

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I have not reached out to this

attorney and I don't want to.

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Just because I don't want to get

involved, like, and, and this attorney

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has always been a pleasure to have a

case with, I think she's a former public.

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I agree.

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I know She's a former public defender.

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She's extremely

intelligent, in my opinion.

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She and I, this is not me saying

that on behalf of the entire

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firm, just to caveat that.

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But her in particular.

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I digress.

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But this is, can you imagine

having to have a conversation

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Hugh: with your client?

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With your client?

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Christine: This is like literally

when I got the TikTok judge's order

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back, talking about me personally

and having to call my client.

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You're just like, is this

what I do for a living?

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Because this judge just, I agree,

blatantly retaliated against

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the attorney for filing it.

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Yeah.

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And, and called her an idiot and,

and implied she's an idiot when

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in reality it's the opposite.

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Hugh: No, it is.

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And, and I can, , I wasn't in the room

when this attorney was speaking with

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her client about this, but I'm sure the

conversation went something like this.

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This is routine motion.

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This is if you feel uncomfortable with

this judge, I can file this motion.

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She's either gonna grant it or deny it,

but knowing this judge is not going to

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have a bearing at any point on your case.

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Mm-hmm.

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You shouldn't have to worry about

the fact that the judge can't be

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professional after you ask for this.

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And by the way.

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We're going to make very

clear in our motion that she

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doesn't have any actual bias.

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Mm-hmm.

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We don't believe that, you know, there,

that she's actively trying to do something

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wrong, but it meets the standard that

this, it would call, I, it would call,

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you know, into question if I were one

of the parties in this case, and maybe.

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Adverse to the position of the

GAL and I see a judge attending

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the gal's political event.

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I would bring it up.

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I would be uncomfortable with it.

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I would want to raise it and then

to get an order where it is clearly

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like, not only are you wrong and

am I denying this, I'm gonna.

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Shit all over you.

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And I'm gonna jab and I'm gonna

talk about how you want a second

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bite at the apple and you're being

a whiny baby and all of this stuff.

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And I'm

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Christine: your mentor and

you should know better.

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This is

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Hugh: a, this is just like, I know

you are, but what am I kind of?

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And yeah, you're right.

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I would hate to be that attorney

going and talking to the client.

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Say, oh, so we got an order.

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Of course, after, I think the

judge's reaction at motion hour,

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Christine: well, you'll

recall though at motion hour.

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That the attorney that filed

this motion to recuse said

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she called the Ethics Hotline.

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The Ethics Hotline, and they told

her to do it, advised her to file it.

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And so she has wonder why, right?

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Wonder why, , and then the judge heard

this and was just like, her first

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reaction was like, you're filing this

because you're mad at my ruling, instead

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of she's lost Any ability for me to

think that she can be objective ever

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Hugh: on this case,

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Christine: or I mean.

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If you're gonna,

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Hugh: some, something touched a nerve

here and, , but I, what, I guess what

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I was getting at is having watched

that emotion hour, the first thing I

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would've done is talk to my client.

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And I'm sure that probably happened

that, oh, this went in a different

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way than I expected it to.

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Yeah.

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But again, there is nothing more that you

can do from an attorney's point of view.

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Your client raises this.

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If you think it potentially invokes

the rule requiring the judge

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to recuse, you can't ignore it.

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No.

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You call bar counsel, they tell you

you need to go ahead and file this.

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There's no reason for reaction

like this from the bench that

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is personal and emotional.

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Literally.

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And it just, yeah,

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Christine: it's all the things.

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And I'm gonna go, I'm gonna say it.

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I'm gonna say it again.

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We got women making these.

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Emotional idiotic orders.

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I mean, this is a what?

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Five page order and I wanna be clear.

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Four page order.

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Shelley Santry, judge Santry is not

devoting four pages to a case where

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a parental provider or caregiver put

a cigarette out on their kid on the

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dependency, neglect, and abuse docket.

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She's not given that kind of

time and information to horrific.

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Do you understand what these judges

see sometimes What happens in

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Louisville, Kentucky on some of these

dependency, neglect and abuse dockets?

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Or where people are literally using

drugs in front of their children,

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overdosing in front of their children,

abusing their children, physically,

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mentally, sexually, all of those things.

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I mean, horrific, horrific things happen,

and you have time to devote this kind

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of attention to a motion, to recuse.

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Hugh: Yeah, I just, I don't know why you

would wanna make this personal there.

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There's, because you're generally

something is going on behind the

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scenes and we can't know what it is.

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Like there's something touched a nerve.

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This isn't just, I mean.

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Christine: We're not giving men

the be something touched a nerve.

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We have Ogden just

blatantly violating the law.

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You got Shelley being like,

how dare you question me.

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You got Denise putting on Falsies.

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I have showing up two hours late.

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Hugh: Worse from the

male judges that we have.

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And yes, we see more of it from

the male judges because eight 80%.

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Of our judges in Louisville are women,

so, well of course we're seeing it more.

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I'm sorry, I said more from the male.

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We're seeing it more

from the women judges.

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'cause we have 80% women judges.

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Christine: Yeah.

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We do not have it, but it's just

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Hugh: the most temper tantrum orders

and reactions in court I've ever seen

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have not been from female judges.

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And maybe, you know, I don't know.

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I digress.

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You can get into but making

blanket statements, but.

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Christine: But no, it's just either

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Hugh: way, it's,

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Christine: it's embarrassing that mm-hmm.

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As women, you're writing an

emotional order like this, like.

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It's just like I said in the, and we

haven't got the video of that yet.

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We're waiting on that.

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But where

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Hugh: well, you can't

email requests anymore.

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You gotta, we gotta do it

in paper and in person.

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Just like, you have to go to court now in

person if, if you wanna watch anything.

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Yeah, whatever.

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Christine: It's just like,

we'll get it together.

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Stop being so emotional.

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Do you need my help act?

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We can, we can do a CLE for you guys.

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Due process.

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Notice opportunity to be heard, impartial.

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Decider of fact, you know, recusal.

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Appearance of a conflict is enough.

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It doesn't require actual ballot actual.

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Ma malice, LOL not,

that's not the standard.

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That is actual malice is the

standard in New York Times versus

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Sullivan when we, when you can

defame a public official, right?

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Yeah.

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That's the standard.

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No,

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Hugh: that's right.

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Christine: But I mean, we can put this

on cue cards and help you guys out also.

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Yes.

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You,

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Hugh: you could attend the Christine

Miller school for not being emotional.

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Christine: Yeah, you're right.

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Can you imagine?

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I mean, but it's like I never cur, I

cursed in court one time when I was

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a young little baby public defender.

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And I learned my lesson, and

it was in juvenile court.

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It was closed.

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It was after people had gone to the back.

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But you know, it's one thing if Shelley

wants to come on this podcast and get

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all emotional about how hard her job is,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but in a

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court of law, like she can get emotional

with me, but these are people's lives.

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Like I have people, I try

to deescalate my followers.

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I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, deescalate.

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We gotta just tell the facts.

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We've gotta do all this kind of stuff.

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But it seems like the family court.

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Bench escalates things.

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They poke the bear.

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Oh, just go take a kid out of

Nevada schools with no cause.

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You know what I mean?

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Oh, how dare you question me and

file a motion to recuse, you know?

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Now I'm gonna just say you did that

because you want another bite at the

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apple, which was the exact verbiage

that was used in the response.

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Said, she says the other

wants another bite.

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Hugh: You're trying to get

me off this case because you

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didn't like a previous ruling.

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Well.

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No, if you'd read the motion, yeah.

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It's actually because you're going

to political events and getting

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photographed with one of the attorneys

on the case at political events,

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Christine: at a partisan political event.

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The judge, the judiciary

can't be political.

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It's just again, basic.

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Basic.

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Oh, but she

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Hugh: didn't endorse her, so it's okay.

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Apparently under this.

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Or donate.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Or donate.

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And she

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Christine: only had one beer.

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But I mean, yeah, and it's not a secret.

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I mean, the Louisville, a lot of

people, and I've had cocktails with

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a lot of the attorneys and stuff

like that and some of the judges, but

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it's one thing to be professional,

it's one thing to be colleagues.

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It's another thing to just

like rub it in somebody's nose.

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That's probably, they had a full

trial, so they're probably 20,

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25, $40,000 in, in on this case.

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At least.

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This doesn't

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Hugh: say anything about the drink.

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Was that at motion hour?

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Yes,

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Christine: she did.

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Hugh: Where Really?

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Christine: I thought so.

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It said that I stayed, oh wait, no.

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She said she had one beer, but

she said, oh, she arrived late.

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Yeah, and spent approximately

30 minutes at the launch.

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So spoiler alert, this is actually the job

description of the Louisville Family Bar.

483

They arrived late and they spent

about 30 minutes on the show.

484

judge-y.com.

485

Judge E, submit your stories

Louisville, y'all get it together.

486

Okay, put the cocktails down.

487

Let's do a dry January.

488

Together, everyone.

489

And let's get to work on time.

490

How's that sound?

491

We have to

492

Hugh: wait till January.

493

Christine: I know.

494

Well, I need to do like a 30 day

challenge or something like that.

495

Like another keto, but Yeah, but

496

Hugh: let's think of all the kids.

497

See ya.

498

Oh

499

Next call.

500

We need some justice, justice, justice.

501

And I wanna ring bells in public.

502

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

503

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

504

I To the fo Yeah.

505

I to the fo fo teaser.