How does a theater major become a law firm marketing expert and entrepreneur? Charley Mann, Founder of Law Firm Alchemy, shares his unique career journey and insights on transforming attorneys into entrepreneurs on this episode of Your Practice Mastered. 

Listen as Charley reveals his tips on referrals, habits, identity, and more with hosts Richard James and MPS. Find out how small consistent actions create massive growth. Tune in now to hear key strategies that can unlock your law firm's potential from the theater stage to the court stage!

Okay, when you hire a paralegal, because let's say we're running a job ad for any type of law firm, we go out to hire a paralegal, what someone thinks a paralegal is going to based on their past experience. So one person who's been a paralegal reading that job ad may think that a paralegal is supposed to be blank, but that In your firm, maybe what you call a case manager or a legal assistant.

You, you write those five job categories that they have to be able to do. If they can't do three of them, then why are you even having the conversation? And that starts with knowing what you want. And now we can start. I mean, gosh, clarity, right? I know that you guys work with the law firm owners on this, on generating clarity.

What are you actually trying to do here? You can tell me you want more revenue. What's it going to change in your life?

​

MPS: Hey, Law Firm owNers. Welcome to the Your Practice Mastered podcast. We're your host I'm MPS I'm MPS.

Richard James: And I'm Richard James and Michael today. We've got a really cool guest. You and I have known him for a minute. We, I personally have watched him grow. I saw him start way back when he was your age and I've watched him grow in this industry and his knowledge and his passion. And the great news is his passion has.

And so Michael, I'm super excited to talk to Charlie today. Aren't you?

MPS: Oh, I'm stoked. And Charlie, welcome on. Super excited to have you.

Charley Mann: guys. I'm so excited. I mean, Richard, I've known you for, I guess, a decade now. I can remember conversations back the crown Plaza hotel about

Charley Mann: the huge and

soft

follow up

Richard James: Oh my goodness.

Charley Mann: Different business models. And Michael, I mean, I, you and I started to get to know each other a few years ago and I, you know, I have people who have worked within the closing room, have improved their closing percentages, all that type of stuff.

So I'm just excited to talk with you guys and

Nothing, nothing against independence, but you know, the Crown Plaza hadn't had a reset in 35 years. And and he didn't care like he, that wasn't, he did not, that was not his focus. His focus was the information and the people that you got surrounded and it worked for all of us. We all complained about the elevator and you know, whatever, but we all still showed up.

Right. And and so it just goes to show that. When you get really great conversations going, like we're going to have today, it doesn't matter what the food is like and what the beds are like. And if the place is at a reset today, we're going to have a great conversation, regardless of what they think about my clothes or your T-shirt or Michael's polo.

Right.

burned

MPS: It sounds like that's still pretty familiar to you there.

Charley Mann: Burned into the brain.

sure

Richard James: Yeah, it was, he demanded that the crown plaza would have air conditioning on in the middle of February in, in, in Ohio. And I literally would bring my beanie to these meetings because I would have to wear a hat. I was, you know, I'm bald, obviously. So I'd have to wear a hat in the middle of the meeting and everybody got a kick out of it.

But I was doing it at a pure survival mode. I mean, I was freezing my tail off, you know? So anytime anybody complains to me in my room that it's too cold in the room, I'm like, you have no idea what you're dealing with. You're lucky to have this good temperature. Anyway, sorry, Michael. I didn't mean to interrupt you derail us.

MPS: No, you're good. You're good. Charlie, why don't you know, for everyone that has not yet had an opportunity to meet you, why don't you start by breaking the ice with something that maybe not everybody knows?

about you

Will inevitably find out about me, which is that I was a theater major in college.

You know, that was

My starting point. I became, I got involved in acting and drama in high school. I fell in love with it. But the issue was, is that I wanted to be a father and husband more than I wanted to be poor, starving actor.

So I needed to find a different path in life. And I'm glad I did. Cause that led me to meeting people like you guys. I mean, Richard, you know, I'm meeting you because I took a different path, started working for Ben Glass and completely changed my life. But that's something that when people first are learning about me, that's the surprise, you are what now theater major, but then it starts to make sense.

Once they see me talk for a while, get a little verbose

Richard James: Yeah, no, you've definitely got the theater major in you. I've seen you in action. And so, it's interesting. You, did you answer one of Ben Glass's old fashioned ads? He maybe still runs them. That is like, if your mother, if you still need your mother to tell you how to tie your shoes, this job is likely not for you.

Did you, is that one of those ads

enter

that

Charley Mann: I actually ran them Craigslist. Right. So yeah, it's one of these ads. If you'd be happy flipping hamburgers at McDonald's, get outta here. Chump. Right? It was really on the nose language, but that was the thing, of course, that appealed to me because. At coming out of school as a theater major, I'm thinking to myself,

What's the one scenario I don't want to end up in.

I don't want to end up waiting tables.

Charley Mann: It's not an offense to waiting tables. I love people who wait tables. I tip heavy on people who wait tables because I know

That's the alternate, like alternate. We have all the Marvel movies now with the multiverse in a multiverse version of me. I'm waiting tables right now.

I'm much more grateful to be on this path. Entrepreneurship in my life than that one, but that's what drove me to. I was like, yes, I don't want to be that. This is what I want to go do. And I mean, you know, we say long story short, but truly

long short,

Richard James: Yeah

Charley Mann: story

Charley Mann: Huge

lesson for everyone that, you know, when you are trying to attract talent for your law firm, I mean, it's not enough to just say, I want a paralegal, right? It has to be more advanced than that. I want a paralegal who, and I want you to tell me five things

That paralegal is going to be able to do for you.

Okay, when you hire a paralegal, because let's say we're running a job ad for any type of law firm, we go out to hire a paralegal, what someone thinks a paralegal

Is going to based on their past experience. So one person who's been a paralegal reading that job ad may think that a paralegal is supposed to be blank, but that In your firm, maybe what you call a case manager or a legal assistant.

You, you write those five job categories that they have to be able to do. If they can't do three of them, then why are you even having the conversation? And that starts with knowing what you want. And now we can start. I mean, gosh, clarity, right? I know that you guys work with the law firm owners on this, on generating clarity.

What are you actually trying to do here? You can tell me you want more revenue. What's it going to change in your life? I mean, this copywriting, I mean, I, you know, Richard, you and I have a lot of experience in this, Michael, I'm sure that you've got your copywriting chops as well. And

The magnifying ability.

It applies in so many places. I mean even law firm owners I've worked with who work on the copywriting skill They say my briefs are better what I put in front of judges communicate better I have a guy up in new york, right who he worked on his copywriting and he said the judges Love me Because my briefs, fun.

they're like this is

Richard James: That'sgreat news. Go ahead,

MPS: it's a, very valuable skill in an invaluable skill. I would tell you it's essential. In everything you do, really, it could be applied to, right? Everyday life. It could be applied to, but Charlie, obviously from theater to tell us a little bit about the journey to kind of where you're at now.

What did that look like?

And you know, quickly was working in both his law firm, Ben Glass law and in his information marketing company, great legal marketing.

And over time really shifted over into great legal marketing and started diving deep into this law firm world. And you guys, one of the things that I try to focus on and Richard, I actually recall a very specific conversation I'm going to bring up here.

From last year that you and I the back of the room at one of the summits.

Which is I try and look for patterns like patterns are so important. And when you are. An outside observer like we are of the law firm space where we don't, you know, we didn't come out of law school and are now looking at it from that level. We start looking at it from a larger macro level. And we're saying, okay, where are the rhythms?

We started talking about how many employees, depending on the size of your firm, you might have. And. I was talking about the person on stage. I said, yeah, they're about to enter. What I know is a difficult time in the firm. It's going to be that period between 600, 000 and 800, 000 per year in revenue. And they're going to add the revenue, but they're barely going to add any profit margin in the middle of it.

And

and I like we're nerding out about this weird granular statistic, this pattern that we've seen. But that's what I started developing over time was just these. Catalog of patterns that I started saying, okay, what happens if we apply these patterns in a repetitive way to a practice, build great habits, built on great patterns and start working intimately with law firm owners.

And over time decide, Hey, you know what?

born

Charley Mann: out of that

Richard James: Oh, I love the term alchemy,

MPS: Yes.

Richard James: As our mentor Dan Kennedy wrote a book with that title as well, and he had always taught us that, you know, the idea of alchemy is creating something from nothing, right? And that's really a great image or picture of what a law firm does. Not that they're nothing, but oftentimes they feel like they're in chaos.

And when you get to apply the pattern recognition that you have, and you can reveal it to them. And the great news about lawyers is once they get it because they're intelligent, right? So, so it's, it sometimes takes a minute because they're stubborn and skeptical and all those other things too.

He's the investor level. He does. He's not even a CEO. He has an entire team running his practice. He's his main job is opening additional offices across the United States. He's building a national practice, wonderful thing, but he would tell you that. 67 years ago, he didn't have enough for a plane ticket, even though he was doing millions of dollars and he started recognizing the patterns that we were revealing to him.

And he started applying those patterns. And today we were having the conversation about how he's now applying those patterns into workflow and to how to make sure we can maximize. Profitability and through point throughput as outlined in the book, the goal, and it was so much fun for me to just go, man, this guy, there's another pattern to your language.

Just, I mean, just they can finally get home in time for dinner or. Take their first vacation or whatever. And that's really the bridge from seeing these patterns over to this idea of what freedom could look like. I mean, Michael, are you saying anything different than what I'm saying? Or do you agree with me?

MPS: No, I mean, it's spot on. It's really fun to watch that lightbulb moment, right? That, the flip of the switch, it goes off. And to your point, naturally because of their work ethic and what they had to do, they're intelligent human beings. Attorneys are intelligent human beings. So when it does click, it clicks.

I'm curious Charlie in any journey There's ups. There's downs. Did you ever have a you know, like a challenge point in the entrepreneurial journey here and something you took from it?

Charley Mann: So

The biggest challenge honestly, was I think one that a lot of business owners in general experience. Now I wasn't a business owner at the time, but it was getting great legal marketing through COVID, you know, right.

That was the big one.

Obviously I can talk about launching the business itself.

Those first couple of months are certainly.

tHey come with their moments, don't they?

You're figuring out, Oh, I'm supposed to taxes by when now, excuse me.

You know, I need to get a financial team and put all these extra things. Where I'm like,

No. but You guys, you don't understand what I want to do is

complicated

stuff I don't want to hear the, I don't want to hear any acronyms like HR or it involved in my life.

That's

anathema

Richard James: Or IRS

Charley Mann: see, that's the one I really want to avoid Richard.

So

When I think about,

You know, that

It does go back

To COVID to those moments of, I think this is an important lesson in it all.

Okay. There were a lot of,

Pseudo cash, grab attention, grab moments that came out of all sorts of coaching, information, marketing industries, et cetera. And I remember having to stand on principles and saying, look, at the end of the day, I get it. There's, I remember like Grant Cardone all of a sudden was saying, Oh, you know, I'm going to give away my special formula.

Dot,

Charley Mann: dot, free and trying to get, you know, 40, 000 people on his list, 40, 000 more people on his list or whatever it was. We were looking at that and going, a lot of people are going to run in that direction. What if we don't, what if we actually focus on,

So that way people don't have to be in as long, but they still have to pay the same amount upfront and getting us through that. And you know, the way that I framed it, even when I was working with private clients at the time was everything that you're doing now, understand you're building your future bank, right?

And the value of that future bank is going to be defined by the principled fashion by which you build it. If you build it on, like, the Grant Cardone model of a ton of just

Free, get a lot of tire kickers, I'm sure. Just like if, in your law firm, I remember a lot

Of firm owners want to do, you know, hey, we're going to do free power of attorney, free this, free that.

I'm not going to say it didn't work for everyone, because by the way, one thing I believe, guys, is Absolutism

Is a myth. It's important in selling. Absolutism sells, but absolutism is not how

Richard James: things done

Charley Mann: the world

Richard James: There's lots of ways to get

done.

They're not looking for discounts because that's not the reason they came on the list. The reason they came on the list was because you're doing the free gas card giveaway. It doesn't have anything to do with what you do. It has to do with you supporting the community or, Hey, you're getting people on your list.

And you're saying for every person who joins my email list for the next 10 days, we're going to give 10 to,

The red cross or something like that. That's a way that we can now build your future bank. When you may not have access to brand new clients. Because people were, you know, in their shells. And so using the exact same principles in the business I was running and in their law firms,

in that

Charley Mann: that way

Richard James: Yeah,

It's a great observation.

It Kennedy taught us and this, you know, it's go the opposite direction of the crowd. Right? So,

when,

Going the opposite direction is usually a good idea. I find that to be true and in all of the business dealings and in life that I've always practiced.

But one of the things that you interesting talked about is this creating this future bank. And we just had interviewed,

A new, a client of ours that had been around now for about three years and he's soaring and it's been a great story.

I did,

I did a day for you dollars for them. And I did a charity. I think you guys even helped me promote it.

And,

Not gonna hold anything back. But here's what I ask. with The Feeding America has this problem where they can't get enough food for people going through this thing. We're gonna raise this charity. And oh, by the way, Maria and I, out of our foundation, are gonna match whatever we raise. And we said, could we raise, you know, five grand, whatever.

We ended up raising 30, 000. Now, that's not all the money in the world. That, but the point was that, you know, future bank fast forward, Jonathan Breeden was in and around that presentation. And today he's been a client for four years, right? And so it's just,

and,

And that's been good for us. For sure, but it's been really good for him too because

It, we don't think it's something we do to him.

It's something we did for him and with him, and that's how law firm

And I love that attitude of, you know, serve

Even your T-shirt says it right. How do we serve first?

You were, well, you were just graduating college.

You were just about to graduate college during that time. You graduated college during that COVID year. Right. And,

And so,

MPS: wasn't the most

Yeah it fun

Richard James: you weren't here for that promotion but you saw what we were everybody was going through, right. It

MPS: Yeah,

Richard James: challenging.

MPS: absolutely. So, and actually, believe it or not, I was there for that day. Cause I remember you, I think you had, I don't know whether it was caution tape or something across your door. And it was just like, don't enter this room. And

Richard James: That's right.

MPS: but I do remember that distinctly and yeah, no, I mean, it was a very interesting time, right?

There, there's just a lot of unknown during that time. And so. To be able to come out on the other side stronger, that goes for Charlie, obviously you guys, that goes for us, that goes for all the law firm owners listening to this. It's impressive something to pat yourself on the back for because it was a very trying time.

Charley Mann: That's a really. Good question. And frankly, because,

The business for me is, I mean, obviously I've been in this industry now for 13 and a half years, but

My company has only been around for a few months at this point.

MPS: Yep.

Charley Mann: But the light bulb moment or the moment that I do love to celebrate. Is I had a vision for what it would look like at the end of the year.

I had, you know, numbers that I wanted to hit. I had lifestyle things that I want to realize on my calendar, et cetera. And it was into the year. And it made me nervous to have this particular vision because I just, I wasn't sure, right? Okay. I'm going out on my own. What is this going to look like?

scared

MPS: are. Yeah.

Charley Mann: Then I set a brand new vision and that vision I thought was going to take me to the end of the year while I actually closed out that portion of the

vision

Richard James: Oh,

congratulations. Nice.

Charley Mann: So,

You know,

It's been exceptional, but it is also the power of,

You know, setting that vision of believing in yourself. And yeah, it's a vision that I knew that if I put in the work, it could be done, but it could go sideways. It could, there, there were all kinds of variables that were out of my control, but as long as I put in the work, I stayed consistent.

I can both be a servant and a leader to them, and I can lead through servitude when I understand that these things can are not mutually exclusive of each other. That was what helped see that vision out. And so now we're looking at Vision 3. 0. Of the business, which I have set for August 1st of next year.

You know, giving myself a tight timeline on it.

And

It's even more aggressive bringing on new team

Charley Mann: members

Richard James: I've got a question regarding law firms. So you've been working with them for a long time small and solos, guys who have multiple attorneys, maybe some that have multiple attorneys, whatever. But as they walk in the door and they're coming into your world or the world that you were in before I suspect you believe as I believe that we recognize that they don't do a lot of this forward thinking and goal setting.

And so what is it that, that you think that they struggle with the reason why they never thought this way or often didn't think this way. And then they were able to see the value in it and started doing.

Charley Mann: in a word identity.

That's where I really come back to it. And I even say these days, you know, it's not really part of the 30 second elevator pitch, but if I have longer time on it, it's what I'm really fundamentally coaching is identity. And I'm allowing the entrepreneur that is inside of that attorney to become the primary identity for that individual, because

The attorney has been taught.

Richard James: And they are, they are Yeah, they are

Charley Mann: Exactly So what if we can tamp down the fire?

And we can turn that problem solving brain into the entrepreneurial challenges and we let them focus on that and we let them see like, Hey, when you reforge your identity over here with the entrepreneur being your leading a business. Domain in your mind because obviously it's really important to be a spouse to be a parent You know

For me at least I kind of joke like I can't coach a bachelor.

I need someone who's going to be

a

husband a wife yeah

Richard James: I do better with husband and wife teams myself,

just

Michael, I think that he hit the nail on the head. You know, if we always wonder why they, how do we change their thinking? And so, the question is, because as I sit here, I go, yeah, you got it. The question is how do we get them to recognize? That the fireman mentality that they have to do the thing that they're best at isn't the thing that's going to get them to the next level they want to be at.

That's the real question, right? Is it just one of those things where they got to get sick and tired of being sick and tired and they're ready. And that's always been my premise, right? They just have to finally be ready to make the change or is it, can you will it upon them? I don't know. What do you think?

Charley Mann: You know, Richard,

And there's even a phrase that I say with my kids when

We're talking about,

Maybe something that

They need to do, or they're talking about a gripe that they may have with a friend or something like that. And we use the phrase, we help those who help themselves.

And so that's what I'm really looking for is there are people out there who love to ignite the very, like before there's even a spark, they want to be there to create the spark. I'm really interested in working with people who have the spark. And are going, okay, something's got to be different. Something is wrong here.

I know life is supposed to be different. They just need some first steps. So there's this,

Thing known as the Beckert Harris change equation. And on one side of it, you have R which stands for resistance. And then on the other side, you have three variables, dissatisfaction, vision, and first steps. So first off.

Who has some vision of it could be better and most of the time what they want to see, like when they first enter one of our universes, they need a couple of first steps like, okay, here's what you're going to do to shift up the way that you are tracking things, right? Let's get a couple of core metrics in there and stay obedient to these core metrics and watch what changes over the next month.

You might be surprised at your behavioral change. Let's do this very simple referral marketing campaign. Just trust the process for me for the next three weeks. And you might be astonished at how you feel being in that position. And if we can win through a few first steps, now the vision gets bigger, which means the dissatisfaction with the current state gets bigger and we will crush

Charley Mann: resistance in the

I mean, Michael and, I find, by the way, this is a age agnostic, right? In other words it doesn't matter whether you're in your twenties or thirties, although we get more people in their thirties and forties than we do in their twenties, or if you're in your sixties or seventies, I, we have, Michael, we have a fair amount of, correct me if I'm wrong.

chronologically advantaged attorneys in our world, and they are just as hungry to learn as the ones who are in their forties and fifties, maybe more so because they feel like the clock is running out. Do you agree with that, Michael? Do you see even the older generation is as hungry if they've got those three perspectives on the backside of how they're going to change?

And he's become such an ambassador for everything he does. People in the program do. It's fun to watch. So I totally agree with you.

Richard James: Yeah, Charlie, LD will be a guest someday. He's he's 75 and he tells us he's going to work till night. He's 90. I believe him. And he tells us all the time, man I, spent my whole life not doing these things. I wish I would have known. But now he's gotta learn a whole new set of skills because he's decided to hire a bunch of staff that he now has to manage to do the work because he is growing so fast and he is never had to manage this many people before.

And he says he is burned out, just trying to figure out how to learn how to manage 'em. So he's now learning a whole new subset after he grew through the last one. So it's fun to watch these stories, right? I mean, it's, man, it's just, it's so rewarding. Sorry, Michael, I derailed this. Where do you wanna go from here?

Charley Mann: so as best as possible,

I try and maintain physical health.

That's really important to me and I would say that I understand that there's, you know,

We all have the burners philosophy, right? You have limited fuel that you can put in each one of those burners. So I understand, especially at this point right now, that the fuel can only go in certain places.

I know I will never sacrifice fuel on my family because,

One, I gain energy from them and two, they deserve my energy. That's space where

They can take from me.

What they will,

So to do that, I need to have small habits that add up. So small spiritual habits, right?

6:45 AM, I get my notification from my Bible app.

That'll have a quick little verse. Allow me to kind of check in on that for the day. Give me a little spiritual anchoring.

But honestly guys, the biggest shift that I'm making right now

To be able to perform at the best level. Is hiring more team members.

I onboarded an executive assistant. I'm handing off and delegating all the small tasks, right?

It's a case of, and I know that you guys do this as well. It's practicing what we preach. it's really important,

Because it is also proof that when

We go to one of these,

Lawyers that we work with and we say, you should pay attention to other industries because they have great ideas, we can say, look, we're modeling the behavior in a different business type over here.

And so I'm on, I've on board, the executive assistant, I've got a program director starting two weeks from now, and that is just the beginning of it all. And that is helping me then. Find the to stay physically fit, find the time to stay spiritually fit, emotionally fit and focus on my family.

And yeah, that,

that's Been a rewarding and process, but a learning curve for sure.

it

You want

it done. Right.

Richard James: Yeah,

Charley Mann: but then, know, we fall

down and put

Richard James: you

Charley Mann: other people on.

Richard James: know,

Charley Mann: isn't

only

Richard James: Yeah,

Charley Mann: the

right

Richard James: And

that's, the truth, which, you know, it's a good segue because I. know exercise is important and I do it, but I don't like it at all. I'd rather be found dead on the side of the road with a cheeseburger in my hand than running shoes. That is just the reality.

And my fuel is full, but I want it full in my butane lighter to light my cigar and I want my bourbon flask full as well.

I'm just going to be honest, right? Like, so I,

Charley Mann: Is

I don't know if you caught them or not, but

They're great.

So anyway,

I too enjoy that. And I'm a street guy. So I, you know, The Bible app guilts me into the fact that I didn't or did keep my streak for the week.

And so I think, you know, daily habits are such a vital importance on the, on helping you maintain the discipline, which get you to go in the right direction to be at a performance level higher than you are right now, and to stay at your optimum.

And having, at some level, solid balance is good. Michael,

You're as balanced. I mean, you, I see it on your calendar every morning. You're going to the gym.

When you're at the house, mom tries to give you seconds and you're like, no, she wants to shove dessert on you. And you're like, no, I asked you if you want a cigar.

You're like, no,

I mean, you're not a teetotaler, but

You're pretty balanced in the way you take care of yourself. Would you say that attributes to your success habits as well, Michael?

Without that, I find it very difficult to be able to succeed personally. And so I think if you can establish a sense of discipline even if it's starting small, right, that sets the tone. Would you agree with that, Charlie?

Charley Mann: Yeah, discipline is so important. I think about the book atomic habits by James clear for anyone who hasn't read that book, please read it.

It's the one book I recommend on habits and that rather than go other places, I say, look, just

Reread the book until you're actually doing what clear talks about in it.

And then, you know, I also think about Alex

That's what Hermosy is talking about. So many people really want to produce an actual overnight success. That's not what it's about. It is about staying consistent. Will you do the same thing every day for three years straight? Or are you gonna give in? Three days into the project, right? You got to, if you can go three years, same thing over and over again, serving someone every single day and finding an opportunity to sell someone something every single day, if you can match those things up for three years, you'll be fine.

MPS: Oh

Charley Mann: be most people give up.

fine but

Richard James: point.

MPS: Couldn't agree more.

Richard James: Charlie, if if, as we're wrapping this up today if people wanted to find out more about you or Alchemy that you work with law firms, tell them a little bit how to get ahold of you.

Charley Mann: Sure. So,

If you're interested in,

In particular, getting more referrals for your practice and guys, we could do like a three day seminar on referrals alone.

It is worth at least half a million

Charley Mann: dollars

Richard James: That's great. Michael, you want to bring us home?

MPS: I'll bring us home. I think that's great. Charlie, thanks for the awesome offer out there and thank you for taking the time to be on today. A lot of great value. And to the law firm owners listening, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen. We love investing our time, money and resources into this podcast.

It's very enjoyable to do. We just ask that if this isn't your first time listening or watching that you go ahead and hit that subscribe button or that follow button, depending on the platform you're listening or watching on and show Charlie some love down in the comments, what's one big thing you took out of today's episode.

Charley Mann: Thank you. You guys are the best you're serving at a really high level, and it's a

delight

Charley Mann: to work

with you guys

Richard James: I've watched you grow from where you were to where you are today. And I'm so excited to watch you grow from here. Congratulations on hitting your first two milestones. I can't wait to hear when you text me to tell me that you got your third milestone before August even happened. And I can't, I'm excited to see what you're going to bring to this industry.

Thank you for serving first and always, and bringing it to the legal industry. It's an honor to be your friend and somebody that we interact with on a regular basis. Thank you so much for being here today.

Charley Mann: You as well, Richard. Thank you