In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave discuss the challenges and opportunities of evangelism during wartime. They explore the importance of relationships, the power of prayer, and the urgency of sharing the gospel in times of crisis. The conversation emphasizes the need for compassion towards all people, including leaders and enemies, and the call to action for believers to remain focused on their mission amidst conflict.
Takeaways
Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world
become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
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:My name is George Binoka and with me today is Jeff Musgrave, founder, author of The
Exchange.
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:And we're really excited about today's episode, which is about evangelism in wartime.
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:Before we get into that, I just want to tell you guys a little bit about this webinar
coming up.
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:It's a webinar on building authentic relationships with unbelievers.
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:You can register by going to our website on the homepage.
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:If you scroll down right after the first image you see, there's a button that takes you to
Eventbrite where you can purchase tickets.
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:It's $10 per household or group.
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:So everybody can share the device that is around you that you purchased a ticket for, but
I'm really excited about the content of this specific seminar.
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:And I think it's timely for where our culture is and where our nation is now.
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:I think the more and more social media and the internet and AI becomes prevalent, the
greater and greater the need is for people to have real relationships.
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:And Jeff, I don't know if you want to say anything about that particular angle of it.
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:I know that's something you've been going around for over a decade and teaching church to
church.
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:Well, I just think relational evangelism is an effective strategy to be able to get the
gospel to people in a format in which they see it, understand their need for it, and many
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:trust Christ as a result.
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:And so we just believe that God made all of us for relationships and that those
relationships are the conduit with which we can communicate the gospel.
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:Yes, and I think you guys are going to be all encouraged.
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:You don't have to have a certain personality to be good at this.
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:There's a biblical way to go about relationships and love.
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:And it's like J.I.
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:Packer says in Knowing God, revival is when people are experiencing the love of God.
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:And what is antecedent to revival is that repentance and the best vehicle we've found to
bring people to that point where they make that decision to turn to God.
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:and give up their sins and put their trust in Jesus is the vehicle of relationship.
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:So we're really excited about it.
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:It is November 11th, six to eight PM Mountain Standard Time.
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:And so if you're in a different time zone, you want to pay attention to the differences of
time there and it's going to be a Zoom meeting.
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:If you go and get your tickets automatically, you'll be emailed the info.
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:You're going to get free $30 in eBooks of an exchange bundle of eBooks that are going to
just help you with understanding
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:more about evangelism and discipleship and how to do it relationally.
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:It's the best we have to offer for the price of a pizza.
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:And so we're going to pray that God uses it.
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:And we're really excited about that.
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:But without further ado, let's jump right in.
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:This is a topic that I've been thinking about lately and brought to Jeff and just said,
hey, what about this?
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:And what happened is we have these friends that we've become really close to and they're
from the Ukraine and
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:They just came from a war zone and they have family that's still living in a war zone.
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:His dad is a pastor in a war zone.
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:And it got me to thinking, what does ministry, what does evangelism and discipleship look
like in a war zone?
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:I've heard of missionaries who live in Poland taking supplies up through Ukraine to the
areas that have been affected.
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:So I know that even in the surrounding countries and in the country itself, the lives of
missionaries from the United States have changed dramatically what their ministry looks
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:like.
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:And the real bottom line question that really kind of stayed in my mind and started living
in my thoughts a little bit is, would it even be possible to evangelize and disciple in a
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:war time?
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:Now for Ukraine and Russia, when that war started, we didn't think they would be peers in
conflict, but it turns out they were kind of
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:they are kind of in actuality peers in conflict.
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:And so the conflict has endured and gone on and stalemated and, and just kind of slowed
down and then sped up and slowed down and seems kind of unending.
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:And I got to thinking, if the United States got into a situation where with somebody who's
a peer, and we got into war, and that is not to catastrophize, but to say, it's always a
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:possibility, you know, Matthew talks about
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:There would be wars and rumors of wars.
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:And so I don't believe we're ever going to have political peace until Jesus comes back.
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:But all of that aside, what would evangelism and discipleship look like at that time?
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:And so that kind of thought has been festering in my head and now I'm really curious to
hear what Jeff has to say about it.
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:So, I mean, Jeff, where would you start?
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:I think that everything intensifies in a time of war.
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:Relationships intensify who you can trust, who you can't trust, the recognition that life
is short, desire and hypervigilance to protect your life.
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:mean, all of those things happen during wartime, but also a need to know if I die in this
war,
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:what's going to happen to me.
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:The need to know is drives the ability of people to listen to want to listen.
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:It also, by the way, intensifies persecution.
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:I mean, because people reject it harder.
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:These are just catalysts.
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:And I think that one of the things we have to recognize, whether it is a miracle, or
whether it is war, these are just catalysts.
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:to people's reaction to the gospel.
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:The gospel is always the same.
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:Frankly, people's reaction to the gospel is the same.
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:This just brings it faster and it brings it more to the surface.
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:So, okay, war breaks out.
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:Let's say you live in a country and this podcast is going out all over the world, so this
could apply to somebody who's in the direct audience right now.
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:What's the highest priority?
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:How do the priorities of your ministry shift when war breaks out?
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:Yeah.
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:I have always believed if we're talking about genuine believers, they are caregivers for
people.
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:a pastor is going to be making sure that his people are safe, the people in the church are
going to recognize there are people in my community, they're in great need, and I have to
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:be able to help supply that need.
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:I mean, I think that
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:fact that you have missionary friends in Poland that are taking food supplies and medical
supplies.
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:There's this great recognition of need down through the years.
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:The great stories of wartime have been those non-combatants who are making a difference in
the lives of people.
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:And so I think probably one of the things that people would need to do
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:is to just immediately go about the business of caring for others.
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:It really is no different than the world we live in.
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:That's what we ought to be doing going around.
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:Jesus went around doing good, but in a war time, it becomes much more evident and frankly,
brave people, people who care about others more than they care about themselves shine
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:because they're actually doing what other people are not willing to do.
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:And I'm willing to say that, and speculate, I guess, if you could consider it speculation,
that we'd pray a lot more during a time like that.
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:I think all of a sudden prayer would, boom, float to the top.
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:We already saw this in our lifetime and during 9-11.
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:I remember people flocking to churches for hope and prayer and just because of the shock.
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:I don't know, you were a pastor during that time.
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:What was it like?
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:Yeah, we immediately had a prayer meeting at our church and our neighborhood came.
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:I mean, this is kind of one of those moments in which it didn't matter whether you were
Baptist or Presbyterian.
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:The fact is that we as a community need God and it was just a recognition of it.
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:and I think prayer was the first instinct of even unbelievers.
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:Right, right.
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:I love what Philippians 4.6 says, do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by
prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your request be made known to God.
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:The purpose of this episode is not to create anxiety.
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:I think what, and there was a level which if I could admit and be transparent for a
second, you know, looking at the landscape of the world, it's easy to become anxious.
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:I've felt some anxiety in my soul.
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:oh over the last several months, not because I don't have confidence in our leadership.
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:I do, but I have confidence in our country.
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:I have confidence in our military.
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:We are separated by oceans and God has been so good to us, right?
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:I have friends who are from Iran.
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:I have friends who are from Ukraine and they don't share those securities at all times,
right?
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:And so, but...
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:But it has made me appreciate prayer and I thought to myself, how come we tend to be
reactive?
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:Why aren't we praying right now?
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:Why do we assume and take for granted our safety or our status in terms of peace?
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:You know, I don't know if you've ever thought about that.
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:I have.
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:In fact, I have a few notes about that that I'd like for us to talk about.
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:But you know, you were talking about the anxiety levels.
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:And before we get to the stuff that I have been thinking I would like to talk about, I'd
love to just talk about anxiety, because I know that you're not the only person.
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:And I, in fact, I know that there are people out there that really struggling with
anxiety.
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:We are hearing of
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:war and rumors of war.
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:And in that context, Jesus said, you're going to hear about this.
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:This is what's going on.
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:And he says, see that you are not alarmed for this must take place.
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:And I think that remembering the sovereignty of God and knowing that none of this, I mean,
it's all surprised to us.
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:This is not at all the way we thought life was going to go.
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:We didn't sign up for this, but this is not a surprise to God.
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:God knew this was coming.
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:In fact, he has plans for all of this.
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:And, and this is what we're all about.
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:This is what Jesus was all about as he's going down through talking about all of the
horrible things that are going to happen in the end times.
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:He says, all of this is supposed to happen.
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:And he says, this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed through the whole world as a
testimony to the nations.
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:And then the end will
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:And uh our I think, whereas you are absolutely right, prayer is the priority.
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:Ultimately, even prayer is aimed at the spread of the gospel.
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:We'll see that from that passage that I'd like to talk about.
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:But the gospel is is the priority because
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:If we can save a person's human life in the midst of a war, they still have to face death
somewhere and eternity somewhere.
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:And if we can give people the gospel, that's going to prepare them not just for the trials
and the struggles of this world, but for eternity.
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:I have a really close friend who died young and we've talked about her before.
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:She used to say all the time,
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:Life is short, eternity is long, invest wisely.
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:the investment that God expects those of us who are believers to make is to carry that
gospel to people who don't know it.
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:I think you're exactly right.
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:Because it's all you can think about when people are dying.
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:It's why Ecclesiastes says, hey, you should think about attending a funeral every now and
then.
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:And we just talked about this in the couple previous episodes as it relates to Charlie's
current life and legacy.
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:But I love that you brought it here.
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:I'm dying to know.
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:So what's the passage you go to as far as this is concerned, this topic of war and
evangelism?
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:Well, it's interesting.
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:I actually see 1st Timothy chapter two as a missionary passage.
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:And you asked the question, you what's the highest priority?
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:Well, in that passage, verse one tells us first of all, then I urge you that supplications
and prayers and thanksgiving be made.
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:And so the highest priority in terms of what comes first is
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:prayer.
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:We're going to see as we go through this passage that the fact is that we are praying with
the gospel in mind.
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:mean, that's where we're aiming our prayers.
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:our first defense, our first thing in terms of timing is we're going to pray.
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:We're going to be people of prayer.
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:We're not going to face these things with
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:anxiety and I don't know what to do.
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:We're going to go to God and we're going to talk to him about it.
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:And frankly, I don't know if you've ever sensed this, but I don't know how many of my
ideas have come to me while I'm praying.
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:So the very first thing to do when you don't know what to do is to pray because God will
begin to give us direction.
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:I think that's the rub of your faith.
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:It's one of the things that is the rub of your faith.
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:It's like, if you really believe this, I mean, it's going to be so instinctual for you to
pray.
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:Not only obviously regularly, but there are going to be times where your instinct is, no,
not right now.
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:We just need to pray.
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:And I think in your discipleship relationships, incorporating that
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:It is so important we don't just meet and crack open a Bible study.
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:The Exchange Bible study is phenomenal.
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:It is meant to be prayed as well.
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:You know, is meant to be caveated by prayer.
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:Absolutely.
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:I just was meeting with someone that I'm discipling yesterday.
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:And a large portion of what we did was we prayed together.
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:That that is the that is the key to all spiritual life because that's our that's our
connection to God.
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:That's our supply line from God.
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:I mean, that that that is that is everything.
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:But I think it's interesting, George, I don't know about you.
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:But when trouble comes,
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:And I pray.
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:My tendency is to pray about the trouble, to pray about me, pray about that's my tendency.
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:But that passage says pray for all people.
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:And it just reminds me that in the midst of difficulties, in the midst of anxieties, our
eyes have to be on others to pray for people.
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:Right.
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:I love this.
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:I love that you've brought this verse because when I saw that as you were reading the
verse and when you first read the verse when you were talking about prayer and then you
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:left out, know, for all people, I thought, man, I hope he touches that.
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:because we're friends with people from Ukraine, we're friends with people from Romania,
we're friends with people from China, we're friends with people from Russia, we're friends
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:with people from Iran, and
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:If I only pray for me and my people, the Americans, I think I'm missing something.
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:I think I'm missing something.
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:think, and I think what happens is we conflate these people's governments and leaders,
which I know this in the next verse he's going to talk about, we conflate these people's
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:governments and policies with the people.
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:You know, their current orientation politically with the people.
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:And it's like, no, the people and the leaders in the government are
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:two different things.
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:And you sometimes would be surprised how the people feel about their own leaders.
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:Yeah, exactly.
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:Well, we've experienced that around here.
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:So I'm not too heavily.
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:Yeah.
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:So I, I think that I just was reading a newsletter from a friend of mine who works inside
of mainland China from time to time and just alerting his followers that persecution is
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:really up right now in China.
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:I
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:in times of conflict, people try to gain control.
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:And oftentimes it is the believers that are kind of out of control in the minds of those
who are control freaks.
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:our Christian brothers around the world need our prayer.
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:Those that they are striving to reach need our prayer.
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:So I love that.
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:verse to pray for all people.
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:And you're right, the very next phrase says, and for kings and all who are in high
position.
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:And this is not just praying for our leaders.
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:It literally is praying for all of the leaders all over the world.
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:We could easily end up in a world war.
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:And I think that what we have to ask for is that all of the leaders who are involved in
all of this would have cool minds and search for peace.
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:Yeah.
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:So let me ask you a question.
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:Okay.
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:And this is just what's coming to my mind right now.
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:A genuine question.
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:How do I pray for a man like Putin?
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:What do you believe this verse means?
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:The very first thing Putin needs is Jesus.
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:Every single person would their lives would drastically change and the world would be
different if if all of the leaders knew Jesus.
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:And so I think the very first thing we pray for any of them, you probably remember in
Fiddler on the Roof, someone came to the rabbi and said, Rabbi, is there a proper proper
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:blessing for the Tsar.
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:And of course, the Tsar was the Putin of the day.
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:And he said, Yes, may the Lord bless the Tsar and keep him far away from here.
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:And so there is there is the practical side of things that we had to pray that there there
would be constraints placed on these leaders that would cause them to choose to do the
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:things that would promote peace and not war.
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:This is so true and so hard.
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:And it's hard not to get a little emotional because when you sit across from people whose
lives and families have been destroyed by a person's decisions.
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:But in the reality of all that, Scripture unflinchingly says, love them and pray for them.
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:I mean, love your enemy.
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:Jesus said, what good is your faith?
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:What good is your faith if you only love the people that like you?
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:And he says, love your enemy and...
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:They're doing it.
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:They're doing it.
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:They're doing it in places like Ukraine.
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:Many believers are doing it.
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:Some are still struggling with it.
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:But I will say this.
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:I pray God gives us the courage, the bravery you were talking about.
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:think what bravery can look like for a Christian is praying for his enemy that God would
save him.
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:uh And I wish...
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:Yeah.
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:did a similar seminar this last week.
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:It was a large seminar, by the way, and it was beautiful.
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:Lots of there are 15 exchange Bible studies that are going on right now in that church.
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:And that was actually prior seminar activity.
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:So I'm super excited about the the church we were in.
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:But one of the men came to me at one of the breaks.
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:And I don't even remember the context, but he reminded me that the enemy is not people.
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:uh The enemy is the one who is trying to destroy all people.
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:And uh the people who are being used by the enemy are just as held captive as any other
soul without Jesus.
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:And
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:We need to have compassion and pity on all humans.
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:God has compassion and pity on all humans.
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:He is not willing that any should come, should repent or should perish, but all should
come to repentance.
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:And all of us should have the same compassion of Jesus and just recognize the enemy is
utilizing that person, using that person to wreak havoc on the world.
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:And they need
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:Lord they need to escape the snare of the enemy.
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:Einstein used to say there's something like 12 dimensions to reality.
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:And I believe what he did, what he stumbled into is the spiritual, the spiritual
dimensions that we don't see.
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:And I, I, I'm praying that God would make me have a very, very multi-dimensional to see
what's going on spiritually in front of me to not attack the people.
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:Cause I can, I can be like that.
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:I can be aggressive and say, well, that person's the problem and forget that there's,
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:There are other forces in the room.
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:And then to go back to the surface level of things, mean, Romans 13 acknowledges that
there's no authority except from God.
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:So even the authority you disagree with, is no, how did they become an authority?
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:I mean, did God's providence fail for a day?
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:I mean, what happened, you know?
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:And so it's like, no, God has allowed, He has allowed the leaders who are leaders in the
governments to be there.
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:It doesn't mean He's responsible for what they do.
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:He may even hate what they do, but he's allowed it.
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:And so there is no authority except from God.
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:Absolutely.
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:Babylon destroyed Israel and burned the temple, broke down the walls.
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:An evil country that eventually got destroyed.
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:In fact, he destroyed Babylon to the point that nothing would ever be built there again.
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:mean, it was was a total destruction.
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:But he said of Babylon, they are my tool to accomplish what I want.
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:And we I think we should never forget the sovereignty of God and and be able to Have have
a peace while we have an urgency to pray and in fact, you know, we were talking about
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:prayer What do we pray for?
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:He said we pray that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life godly and dignified in every
way
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:mean, that that's what we're praying for.
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:And I think that's what we need to be praying for, for our friends in China, for our
friends in Iran, for our friends in Ukraine, that that they would be able to lead a
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:peaceful and quiet life.
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:The very next verse says the reason we pray for peace is because this is pleasing to God.
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:This is good and pleasing in the sight of God, our savior.
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:And in the context that
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:that phrase, God our savior, is clearly talking about Jesus.
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:And he goes on, says, who desires all men to be saved.
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:So the purpose of peace is so that souls can be saved and that they could come to the
knowledge of the truth.
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:Yeah.
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:I feel like what you're touching on here is the...
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:buffer of time that he allows in our lives.
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:It may not be for all of our lives.
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:may be part of our lives.
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:Who knows what our lifetime is going to look like, but only God does.
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:that there's this peace, there's this interim where we can get soul work, gospel work
done.
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:Romans 12, 18 says, possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
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:That's going right off of what you're saying.
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:Paul's talking about the same thing, you know,
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:He wrote both books.
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:He's talking about, it's the Micah 6.8 principle.
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:man, what is good?
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:What does God want?
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:What does the Lord require of you but to do justice and love kindness and walk humbly with
your God?
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:That's what it means to live peaceably with all people.
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:That's the horizontal element.
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:And so, not because we're cowards, not because we are not patriots, not because whatever,
it's because we have a bigger cause.
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:Yeah.
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:And I think that we have to always keep in mind the bigger cause is that souls will be
saved.
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:The meta narrative of history is the redemption of the lost.
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:We must never forget what God put before us.
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:I think it's interesting, George, if we were in the middle of war, we would probably both
be chaplains and we would probably both be preaching the gospel every single day.
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:I mean, that's just that's what we would be doing.
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:Having said that, we're in peace and this is a better time to be preaching the gospel
every day.
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:So I think that sometimes we get too hung up on what would happen if when God is saying
what's happening today, this is what I want you to be focusing on today.
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:Yeah, and it's reflected in 2 Peter 3, 9, right?
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:The Lord is not slow, but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish, but
that all should come to repentance, right?
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:And so that's the principle is that this is the ultimate reason for peace.
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:And he says the same thing in 1 Timothy 2, 4.
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:Yeah, absolutely.
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:I think one of the things that I noticed about this passage that I don't know that I have
actually looked at carefully and I want to go back and study it some more, but notice he
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:says that he would in this passage that we are to be praying because this is good and
pleasing to God.
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:And then he goes on, says, here's why it pleases him.
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:because he desires all men to be saved.
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:And then this is the phrase that I wanted to look at and to come to the knowledge of the
truth.
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:The way people get saved is they know about the truth.
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:Unless we are declaring the truth, unless we are proclaiming the truth, unless we are
helping people see the truth, we really aren't doing the job of this
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:metanarrative of history, is redemption.
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:We long to see people saved, but the way to see people saved is to help them to come to
the knowledge of the truth.
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:It's Romans 10-17 comes to mind, so faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
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:There's a fascinating study that was done at Stanford University by people who usually do
research studies for Silicon Valley.
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:But it was a study on churches and meaningful growth in churches, which is basically they
were talking about revival, but they they don't know the term revival because they were
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:not theologians doing this study.
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:They were business people.
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:So they went and looked at all these big churches and looked at effective churches and
ineffective churches, shallow and deep churches.
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:They understood enough about the difference.
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:They could perceive enough about the differences that they actually had good delineation
between what was an authentic church and what wasn't, even if they disagreed sharply with
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:the principles and the preaching and the doctrine.
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:They were surprisingly honest in their study and very fair.
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:They came at the end and said,
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:Well, we found out there's two things that affect growth in people's faith and convert
people, and that is prayer and reading the Bible.
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:And so they sent all these megachurches this study and said, the way you're ever going to
grow and the way that you're ever going to see people stay in the seat and not just
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:constantly shift people and rotate people is prayer and the Bible.
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:And that's this principle that you're talking about right here.
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:John 8.32 says, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
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:Man, we need to capitalize on truth today.
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:Yeah, and and the one truth in the passage that God wants us to focus on is there is one
God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a
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:ransom for all.
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:I mean, that that is there is no greater truth on earth.
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:There's there's a lot of theology in that phrase, and we don't have time in this episode.
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:Maybe we'll come back and focus on that one verse and kind of walk through it someday.
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:But that that's the truth that sets men free.
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:That's the truth that all men need to see.
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:And the perfect time for that, like we've said multiple times at this point in this
episode, is now.
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:And the perfect time for the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was at the
moment that it happened.
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:So we've been in this 2,000 year window where we get to share this truth, and it is always
the right time to share it.
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:Yeah, it's a 2000 year window of urgency.
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:Isn't that interesting?
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:mean, literally, that's, that's, that's the, mean, when you hear of a mediator between God
and man, you recognize there's conflict here.
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:This is, this is the real war.
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:And, and we can rescue people.
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:Jesus gave himself a ransom, a rescue for people.
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:We need to live in this urgency.
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:This, this man, the Messiah, literally, that's the word man Messiah.
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:Jesus, human, God man, and rescuer.
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:mean, that's, that's the picture that he said here.
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:And this is the testimony that that he is given to us the word testimony back to that
Charlie Kirk thing.
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:It's the same word.
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:Mark, the word we get our word martyr from, we need to be as intent as Charlie was.
377
:getting that message to a lost and dying world, matter where they are, no matter who they
are.
378
:You know, it's really interesting wherever you are in the history timeline, I'm sure it
feels like this is never gonna happen.
379
:I mean, even before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, I'm sure there
were Israelites that thought, will the Messiah ever come?
380
:There are still Israelites who think the Messiah has not come.
381
:But Galatians 4, 4, and 5 says, when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his
Son.
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:And so,
383
:He always comes at the right time, but for us we live in soon.
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:I think the Chosen series pokes fun at this a little bit in a very good way.
385
:know that the word soon, Jesus says the word soon all the time, but it is the most
nebulous word.
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:You have no idea what soon means.
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:You just know every day it's becoming sooner.
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:Yeah.
389
:You know, there's a verse that tells us, says that men should always pray and not faint.
390
:And it says, and he will rescue you speedily.
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:And I, used to take exception to that.
392
:And I argued with God about that word speedily and did a little research on it.
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:It literally means as soon as possible.
394
:And the fact is that God has a different priority and he is not willing that any should
perish.
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:And this, I don't know if this is what's going to happen, but this is the picture that I
see.
396
:That when that last person finally repents and Jesus is satisfied that the church is
complete, then the trumpet's going to come and we're going to go home.
397
:Until then, Paul says, I was appointed a preacher and an apostle, a sent one.
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:I love that word sent.
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:I want to wear it right here on my forehead.
400
:That's who I am.
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:I am sent.
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:to a lost and dying world, I to live in that scent mentality.
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:love that.
404
:They can't, you know, how are they to believe in him whom they have not heard and how
beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news, right?
405
:They can't hear without a preacher.
406
:Jesus sister disciples at the end of John, he says, as the father sent me, so send I you.
407
:I believe that applies to us.
408
:We need to just
409
:We can't waste any more time, you know?
410
:Let's go!
411
:Let's go.
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:That's what a great way to end that.
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:I think it is important for us to recognize there is no better time than now than to find
somebody and help them come to the knowledge of the truth.
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:Yeah, yeah, and please remember this those of you that are laboring in the harvest Don't
be distracted.
415
:Don't be anxious about war We need to stay in the harvest.
416
:The harvest is plentiful laborers are few and remember what Isaiah 26 says you keep him in
perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you because he trusts in you and so to be effective
417
:in the harvest we have to be people who trust God stay on our knees stay praying and
Continue making the gospel the highest priority in our lives
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:That is the way forward right now.
419
:It has always been the way forward for the church and will be till our savior returns and
takes us home.
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:So with that, we love you guys.
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:If you haven't signed up for the webinar, you're not gonna wanna miss it.
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:we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers.
423
:We ask you to pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send forth laborers and
multiply ourselves so that the church can continue with its mission effectively.
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:We love you guys and we'll see you.
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:next week.