In this episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction, Tammy Vincent sits down with relationship coach Karen Spetz to explore one of the most emotionally complex questions many women face: “Should I stay or should I go?”

Karen specializes in helping women navigate this crossroads, especially during seasons of personal growth, identity shifts, and midlife transitions. Together, Tammy and Karen unpack why this question is coming up more than ever, and how evolving self-awareness, changing societal norms, and emotional needs can create a disconnect in long-term relationships.

They discuss the difference between simply coexisting and experiencing true connection, the impact of childhood patterns and communication styles, and why the absence of conflict does not equal a healthy relationship. Karen emphasizes that there is no one-size-fits-all answer — only a deeper process of self-exploration, clarity, and honest communication.

Listeners will walk away with powerful reflection questions, including how to identify what’s missing in a relationship and how to determine whether those needs can be met within it. This conversation also highlights the importance of raising your standards, reconnecting with yourself, and making decisions from a grounded place rather than fear, guilt, or urgency.

Ultimately, this episode is about empowerment — trusting yourself to make aligned decisions, whether that means staying, leaving, or redefining what your relationship looks like moving forward.

🔑 Key Takeaways

• Why more women are questioning their relationships during midlife transitions

• The difference between “not fighting” and true emotional connection

• How personal growth can create relationship misalignment

• The role of communication in every relationship challenge

• A powerful question: If your relationship improved, would you want to stay?

• Why decisions should come from clarity, not fear or guilt

• The importance of raising your standards in relationships

🔗 Connect with Karen Spetz

Website: https://abetterrelationshipcoaching.com

Podcast: https://www.abetterrelationshipcoaching.com/podcast

Hey there, I’m so glad you’re here and tuning in! If this episode spoke to your heart, just know there’s even more support waiting for you.

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Trials To Triumph: An Adult Child's Emotional Freedom Blueprint: Use code THRIVE25 for 75% off today. https://workshops.tammyvincent.com/offers/DSbcgrZZ/checkout

As an international inspirational speaker, NLP Practitioner, Trauma-Informed Coach, Neurofit Trainer, and Best-Selling Author, I bring both deep personal experience and professional training to the work I do. I believe in prevention, not just intervention — and use a body, mind, and spirit approach to guide others toward becoming the happiest, healthiest versions of themselves.

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Worked out the heavens were helping today, right?

Absolutely.

So, good morning, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

Today with we have with us a very special guest, and it's a conversation that is going to really be, I don't want to say controversial, but it's something that people are really going to think on.

And I don't.

I want you to feel free to look at this with an open eyes and open ears and open heart and just love this conversation because it's a conversation that many of us have contemplated and not known where to find the answers.

And we have with us today Karen Spetz, and she has some of these answers because what she does is she's a relationship coach, and she specializes in helping women who are struggling with the should I stay or should I go?

Question.

And I know you're probably like, whoa.

But really, it's a question we've all asked ourselves when things get tough.

And Karen works specifically with people that have that question.

So welcome, Karen.

Thank you so much.

I'm happy to be here.

Yeah, it's.

I love having you here because this is a conversation I.

Like I said, I mean, every single client that I've ever had has wrestled with this conversation at some point.

And if you go to a marriage counselor, I feel like all of their answers were the same that they got from these counselors.

But what, what made you decide you wanted to work with women on this big, big question?

Yeah, well, I am a certified relationship coach, and I.

And I used to work a lot.

The majority of the people that I worked with was in couples.

But then I just saw this organic, you know, switch towards more women reaching to me individually, saying, I don't know if I'm ready for that yet.

I don't know if I want to stay in the relationship to work on it.

And they were really looking for this more individual help to see what was going on with them personally and changes that had happened for themselves that maybe were, of course, related to the relationship, but it was, it was different from, hey, we want to work on it.

It was like, do I want to work on it?

Right.

So what would you say is the average age that this is coming up?

I would say it used to be more like 40, 50, you know, to 60.

But I've actually seen this more women that are in their 30s coming to me as well.

But it's, it's a, you know, I know 30s isn't really midlife, but, you know, like 35 to 50ish, I would say.

But It's.

It's generally women that have been married for a number of years, and they're going, oh, wait a minute.

Does this still work for me?

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I mean, like I said, I've.

I've.

Everybody I've ever talked to has questioned it, and I don't know if it's because I'm talking to people that come from a trauma background.

And so they're deciding finally, like, okay, I'm 45 years old.

I've been wrapped around my kids.

I've been wrapped around school.

I've been wrapped around their.

Their stuff.

Their stuff, their stuff.

And now, all of a sudden, I'm in an age where I want it to be a little bit about me or I want to heal me, and I don't know how to do that with someone else in the picture.

Yeah, yeah, that's real.

I think it.

Yeah, so I see that a lot.

So it's interesting because that's definitely where this midlife thing comes in.

Right.

Because almost always kids are either out of the house or they're like teenagers doing their own thing, not needing as much.

And so these women are looking around, they're going, oh, like, my role as a mother is very different now, and it doesn't take up as much of me.

And so they start to look around and go, what's happened here?

Because I'm not.

I don't feel like I'm the same person that I was.

Right.

And we're not.

I mean, I'm not the same person I was at 26 when I got married.

Absolutely not.

I'm 57.

I've had 31 years to figure it out.

But, yeah, I can see how people kind of get lost in that.

You know, my oldest son is still living with me.

My youngest son just moved out.

So it's like, wow.

And so what is your perspective?

Like, what is this fix it or leave it kind of attitude that we're seeing?

Yeah.

I think, well, what I.

What I've really noticed and what I've actually learned about myself, you know, speaking of growth, I mean, you know, there was a time in my life where I would have said maybe, oh, you should definitely do this, or you.

You shouldn't do that, or you don't have to put up with, or, you know, having these more like black and white, yes and no approaches to things.

But what I've learned through the work that I've done with other people and just going through different things that I've gone through in my own marriage that we all go through is we really don't know.

I don't think anyone knows how you would handle a particular situation until you're in that situation.

And I've worked with women who've said to me, oh, I know I've given this advice to my girlfriends before, but now I'm in it, and I don't.

I don't know what I want to do.

And so fix it or, you know, leave it.

That's not something that you can really decide until you're going through it.

And I think we need more of that compassion and understanding.

So.

Yeah, I mean, and it's not a one size fits all either.

It depends on the relationship.

It depends on who you are.

It depends on what you're doing.

Um, so why do you think this is happening so much now?

Or do you think it's just being talked about now?

Well, I think it's being talked about, and I think it's more acceptable.

So, you know, baby boomers, they were really the first generation to be like, oh, yeah, I'm not.

I'm not in this forever, no matter what.

So generationally, we've changed, and it's.

It's become more acceptable to separate and divorce and.

And do your own thing after a certain period of time, and you realize it's not working for you.

But I think the other thing that's happened is, well, financially, it's more possible for women to do this.

And also because personal development and mental health awareness and just personal growth is so much more a part of our lives now.

What I see happen a lot is women are.

Men are also involved in this personal growth, you know, that we're all experiencing as society.

But I have found that women are much more into this, and they're wanting to work on themselves.

They're wanting to do this reflection, and they're saying, hey, like, these things that I was okay with before, I'm really not okay with now.

And so they're doing all this personal development, and honestly, it's not as acceptable for men to get in touch with their feelings and to really think about things in this same way as it is for women.

And that creates this gap where women are going, hey, this is who.

This is what's working for me.

This is what's not working for me.

I want something different.

Can you work with me on this?

Can we still fit together in this new person that I'm becoming and that I want to be?

And there's this gap here that they're.

Not able to bridge and I mean, I know I did a summit back in last December, two Decembers ago, and it was literally called Shattering the Stigma.

And I had a couple guys come on there and just talk about the stigma about mental health with men and them having to be tough and having to be.

So do you.

I mean, do you encourage, as a first step, depth, like, hey, see where your spouse even sits with this?

Because.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

Because I know there are some men that, because of pride, because of ego, because of what they've been conditioned to believe.

Y.

They're probably going through the same thing that the women are going through.

They just don't feel that they can say anything.

Oh, absolutely.

100%.

I always.

My first.

The first thing I always encourage is, you know, and when I'm working with women in this, and.

And to be fair, I've actually worked with a number of men on this too.

I. I kind of say, like, oh, I work with women, but I've had men work reach out to me, and they're like, I can't do this anymore.

Like, can you work with me?

Can you help me with this?

And have had really good experiences working with men, seeing a lot of change there, which has been very positive for them.

So just to be clear about that, some men are reaching out about that.

Um, but yeah, it's.

It's not as.

Sorry, I got distracted.

And I think I forgot the original question about.

I think.

I think I just asked you if it was like, I guess the difference.

Between have the conversation.

Yeah, yeah.

To have the conversation.

Yep, absolutely.

So that's the first thing I recommend is like, once you realize what's not working for you and what you want different, then bring that to your partner and be like, hey, this isn't working for anymore.

And to be honest, I did this in my own marriage.

I was like, this communication thing we've got going on, or lack thereof, it does not work.

We need.

I'm doing the Cliff note version here.

Right, right.

We need something different.

And he was like, yeah, I agree, but he just didn't have the, you know, he didn't grow up learning how to talk about all this stuff.

And I do it for a living.

So, you know, I was the one that brought it up, but he was like, yeah, you're right.

This doesn't work.

And.

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

No, I was just gonna say, I. I'm sure there are more than you would.

Than people would think that guys are in this exact same situation.

Yeah, I mean, you know, we're not the Same people we were.

They're not the same people they were either.

But I do like that you made it a point where you said, you know, with the generations thing, because it's true.

I know so many people like my grandparents and my parents and that stayed together because marriage was this bond that you didn't break no matter what.

You just learned how to adapt and you learned how to survive and you learned how to just appease or whatever it was, just be content.

I know.

I don't know how many hundreds of people I know that are just like, yeah, I'm not unhappy, I'm not happy.

I'm just kind of here.

And I think that's probably the people that you deal with, right?

Yeah.

I mean, well, kind of they're kind.

They're there, but eventually something.

Because sometimes I have talked to people and they're just kind of coexisting.

Yeah.

And they're not motivated one way or another to change.

And so the women that are coming to me, they're like, this isn't working.

But I just don't know, like, is it possible?

Like, what do I do with this?

So there's something in there that there's.

They want more.

Can they have more?

What would that look like?

Because.

Yeah.

And I. I mean, to your point, I don't ever want to see anybody but just like, existing in their marriage for decades, like, we get one life,.

You know, it's too short, you know,.

What do you want to do with it?

It really is.

My husband and I, we cruise a lot, and I watch people, and it's like, I watch people watching people, if that makes sense.

Like, I'm a people watching people watcher.

I don't know what it is love to people watch, but I like to watch.

Like, if you see, for instance, if you see a couple and they're hugging and laughing and, you know, getting pictures taken and then you see couples walk by, it's like half the couples don't react at all.

But sometimes you see, like, the girl, like, oh, you know, like this happy, joyous thing.

And then sometimes you see this look of, why can't that be me?

Yeah.

You know, I'm saying you literally see this look, and it's like, so blatantly obvious that it's just envy.

It's, I want that, I want that, or I want nothing.

Like, you can see it.

It's almost like you want to be like.

It's like I want to walk up and be like, hey, I know this girl.

Karen Spence.

Yeah.

Yeah, you can literally, you can read the energy on people.

And the cruise, I feel like, is a really good way to see it because there's a lot of couples and there's a lot of people that are there for this nice romantic situation.

And so it's a really interesting place to really observe that dynamic.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, I bet.

And it's interest, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned that.

It makes me think of, you know, sometimes in that coexisting space and especially sometimes I'll hear like, oh, well, know we're staying together for the kids or something like that, and we don't fight.

And so they think, like, that's enough.

And what I tell people and really try to impress upon, like, the importance of is there's a difference between the lack of negative and the presence of positive.

And to have a healthy relationship, like, it's not just not fighting, it's the affection and the.

How was your day?

And the.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

You're right.

I was.

I was super snarky with you.

I didn't mean to, you know, that was my bad.

Like, seeing the repair there, like, that's what kids need to see.

To see two and different parents is.

Is not good.

No, no, it's absolutely not.

And it doesn't give them any role model.

I. I kind of say that, you know, my parents fought violently, but it was a different world back then.

Back then, you know, you had to prove one unfit for the father to get custody.

It was a really ugly thing.

And I remember that the comment where people would say, like, oh, your parents are staying together for the kids, like, that is so damaging.

First of all, I never once.

I don't have a memory of my parents hugging.

I don't have.

I didn't grow up with any kind of affection in the house because there was so much fighting.

And I remember the first time I got divorced, it was kind of like that.

It was like we didn't really fight, but there was.

There wasn't much else there.

And I remember thinking, I would rather my kids have no role model and be able to have to figure it out by watching other people than to have a role model that was literally that they were going to model complacency and just coexisting.

I did not want.

Yeah, absolutely.

And to think like, oh, this is what.

This is what marriage is.

Yeah, it's just kind of, you know, this in between space of nothing really good, nothing really bad, but just, you know, and.

And yeah, that's.

They.

They Learn what they learn about relationships through watching you.

And so there should be.

You want them to see, like, oh, you know, my relationship with my romantic partner should be fun and energetic and not perfect.

But, you know, we can make it work and kind of come back together and figure things out.

And it's got to be this mix of, you know, how do we.

How do we do this in a way that's.

That's fun and is healthy?

And if you're missing.

Just because you're not fighting, if you don't have that affection piece there, you're still missing out on it.

They're not learning the.

The good stuff that a relationship could be, right?

And not only that, but eventually there becomes resentment.

If one person is changing and one person.

If one person wants that and the other person is okay, there becomes that.

There.

There has to become that resentment.

Like every missed opportunity for, you know, you go on a cruise and it's okay, but it's special.

And you're like.

Like, it makes you want out.

But at the same time, you know, I try to caution people that are quick to be like, I just want out.

Because the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Sometimes it's easier.

You know what I mean?

It's.

Sometimes it's.

If you've been with someone for 25 years, and it's always worth, like, hey, can we communicate?

Can we talk this out versus I'm growing, you're not.

Because that's pretty black and white, too.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's why that initial conversation is, you know, and that might be five initial conversations, you know, like, kind of regrouping and what is this going to look like?

And then you do maybe go to, you know, couples to make that work and see how all you're going to put together these new versions of yourself to, you know, make them work.

But, yeah, it is really important to have that conversation to say, like, oh, is this possible?

Although I will say, you know, once in a while, I will.

I was working with someone recently, and she was like, I'm done, you know, but she came to me six months after they were separated, and she was just kind of like, how do we, like, finalize all this?

And she wanted to, like, go through it and process it with somebody else to make sure she wasn't missing anything.

And, you know, through our work together, she was just like, no, he's not changing.

I have tried, and it's not going to work.

So she was just kind of out.

And, you know, depending on the background that your spouse comes from to husband, wife, whatever it is.

I think communication is so much of the key.

And some people cannot.

Like, if you've grown up and never, never, never communicated and you've always lived your whole life just not wanting to rock the boat, sometimes that's your instinct is, this is not working, I'm out.

And maybe without ever even having that.

Yeah, yeah, that does happen.

If you don't know and especially if you're like walled off, I would say, you know, kind of that avoidant type.

You may like not know how it.

I'm not saying you can't learn because you definitely can.

I lean towards avoidant.

That's my bad day is I'm like, well, I'm like, whatever.

You know, I don't have those bad days very often, but when I do or even those moments, I have to go, oh, okay, what am I doing here?

Like, let's come back and reconnect.

But yeah, if you don't get those skills and know how to do that, then you don't know how to do that.

Right, right.

And when, yeah.

And when you're angry and one if you can't, communication is just so, so, so vitally important.

But it's so hard to establish if you've never had it.

Because I, I had a marriage counselor on here not too long ago and he literally called those, those non communicative marriages like death by a thousand paper cuts.

It is.

Yeah.

Because every little.

And you.

By the time someone actually leaves, it's like there's no trying any.

There's, it's done.

It's emotionally, the disconnect has been usually so long.

Yeah, unfortunately.

Yeah, absolutely.

But yeah, that is communication.

And you know, every couple, I think probably every single couple that I've worked with, you know, oh, you know, what's going on.

We need to learn how to communicate better or we need to learn how to fight better.

That's what they say.

Community.

It's actually every single thing is about.

I don't care if it's money, kids, infidelity, you know, you know, your family getting involved, you know, you watching video games, hanging out with your friends too much.

Whatever it is, it all actually comes down to communication.

All about me.

Yep, absolutely.

So talk about.

I mean, and for the people out there listening, if you're sitting there, we are not trying to say one way or the other, we are not judging.

There is your life.

The only thing I can say is that you deserve to have the absolute best one.

So wherever that aligns with you and whatever that means, that's perfect for you.

I mean, you have to do at some point in your life if you're in that coexisting or just existing or, you know, just being that content.

Yeah, you deserve joy.

I mean, you do.

Yeah.

Either in or out, whatever that is, you know, however that needs to work for you.

And I, I do really emphasize, like, no guilt, no pressure.

No, I never have an agenda when someone's working with me.

That, you know, woman who decided, you know, I'm done.

I'm like, okay, great, let's talk about what that's going to work.

Look like, you know, because you're still going to interact.

There's kids and stuff, you know, because I don't, I don't know what the best choice is for somebody else.

I'm divorced.

I'm married.

I've been with my husband for 11 years now.

Well, we've been together 16.

We've been married for 11.

And yeah, we're do.

We're in the best place we've been, but it's because we've gone through things that, you know, whatever.

People make that choice for themselves.

That's what they need to do for them.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's, and, and usually, like you said, that's not something that happens overnight.

It's usually something that builds.

It's usually, you know, you stop the communicate, whatever, whatever it is, whatever happens.

But talk about your advice or, you know, what you think to people that just literally have that I'm growing, they're not.

Or I'm, I've changed, they're not.

What do you, how do you go at that angle?

The basic.

Which I think is a lot of people.

Yeah, it is a lot.

Right.

So again, I always want to start with, okay, you're growing, great.

We're all, you know, that's a good thing.

So I want to embrace that.

And you are learning more about yourself.

And then the question is, so what are you finding is missing from your relationship as a result of this growth?

Like, what's not there that you wish was there?

What are you missing?

And a lot of times we don't know what that is.

We'll be like, I'm just not happy or it just isn't working anymore.

Okay, that may be very true.

I'm sure it is.

Why?

What is it specific?

Is it communication?

Is it that you feel like you're over functioning in the relationship?

Is there a lack of trust because of xyz, things that have happened in the past?

What are you Missing.

Let's like really talk about that.

Is it possible to find that in the relationship you're in now?

If you could get it, would you want to work on it or no?

You know, so that's kind of the beginning part of my work with someone.

Yeah.

And that absolutely makes sense.

I mean, if you have someone that comes to you and says, you know, I got 19 things in my bucket list and they have absolutely no desire to do any of them, then go do them.

You know, if you don't have the means to go do them, then with them, then maybe you, if they're on your bucket list, go do.

You know, I mean, there are some things that sometimes you just, you know, I'll be honest.

My husband made a comment and it's so funny, and it stuck with me so hard.

We were standing at the kitchen and this is like six years ago, and I said, oh, I want to go to Greece.

And I have all these things on my bucket list.

And he said to me, I've pretty much seen everything I want to see.

And you're like, oh, okay, okay, well,.

Do I have free reign to go see those things?

Yay or nay?

And he's like, yeah, go ahead.

Okay, fine.

Yep.

Yeah.

Okay with solo travel, like, yeah, I'm okay with that.

They have, you know, cruise buddies, dot com.

You go in there, you get yourself cruise.

But I mean, there are some things that in your life, especially as you get older, are non negotiable.

You know, I want to travel.

I don't.

I want to have.

I want to live near my grandkids.

I don't, you know, there are some big life things that, what I call, I call them non negotiables for me.

And I think everybody kind of in their own heart and in their own soul has a few non negotiables.

Sure, absolutely.

Yeah.

And I, and it's interesting that you mentioned because.

Just because.

So some people, they're like, listen, I don't, I don't want to go to Greece.

I don't want to do any of those things.

And I want to stay at home and sit at my, you know, house and do the things that I want to do here.

And I want my partner with me.

So it's not going to work for me.

Like, you need to want these things with me.

Well, that's going to have, you know, one set of consequences.

Right.

But sometimes it happens where they're like, but, yeah, you go for it.

I will be right here waiting for you when you get back.

And, And Sometimes relationships do really well like that, and I think that's great.

You know, if you can feed yourself and what you're wanting personally and needing for yourself, and you can do that inside of a relationship, like, awesome.

So are there some main questions that you have people, like people listening to this podcast who have not come in and worked with you haven't.

Are there some, like, I don't want to say trigger questions, but questions you could ask yourself to see how serious you are about this?

I'm just not happy.

Yeah.

I think the one thing that really, that when I ask someone is that question that I mentioned before is like, okay, now we know what you're missing.

If you could get it in your relationship, would you want to stay and get it?

If your, if your partner was like, okay, yeah, I can do that.

It's.

It's not going to be easy, but I'm going to put in the work and we're gonna, we're gonna make it work.

Would you be like, oh, like, disappointed because secretly you were hoping that it wasn't gonna work and you.

And you could cut out and I don't say cut out like, you know, like, give up too early or anything like that.

No, I get it.

Hoping.

Yeah.

That you could be like, it would be decided for you, or are you like, oh, okay.

Yeah, that.

That would be good.

I. I'd be curious to see what that would look like.

I would like to spend the next 20, 30 years with the person that I thought I was going to be spending my whole life with.

And they.

There can be relief there, but sometimes there's.

I don't know that I would want that.

Right.

So that's kind of the dividing line.

Yeah.

And it makes sense.

It's very cut and dry, too, with that.

It's.

If you could fix it, would you want to?

I mean, that's really.

At the end of the day.

Yeah.

If you could fill those voids, is that the person you want to do them with?

And sometimes people really just.

It takes a minute to figure out if they would.

Some people, you ask that question and they're like, oh, like a little light bulb goes off and then we can work on, okay, now what's that going to look like either way?

And some people, they're like, geez, I just don't know.

And so we do a little bit more work with that.

Yep.

Makes sense.

I mean, it seems like such a 40 years ago, this was not a simple concept.

It seems like it's a simple concept.

It's not Ever simple, but you know what I mean, 40 years ago, you stayed together.

It didn't matter.

You were married till death do us part.

Now, it's not that.

That's not the case anymore.

I mean, we obviously have serious marriage vows and stuff, like, you know what I mean?

But it seems like if you are not happy, it's.

I mean, I joke with people when they're, like, getting ready to get married for, like, the third time, and I'm like, why are you getting married?

It's literally just a piece of paper.

Like, I know that sounds horrible, but I'm like, what are you doing?

Like, you're doing this for.

Why?

Like, just spend the rest of your life with this person and continue to love them.

Like, you know, I mean, it's.

And I'm not saying that I don't have, like, take marriage vows seriously.

Don't.

Don't quote, like, put that in my.

But I just feel like I would rather be.

Not have that piece of paper and be with someone that brings me joy my entire life.

Yeah.

You know, I'm saying.

Yeah.

And.

And some people do choose to do that.

And then there are some people for, you know, religious or spiritual or just their traditions or values.

They want to have that, you know, that piece of paper, even if it's a third time or fourth time or whatever it is.

And that's.

That's fine with me.

Whatever somebody wants to do.

But, yeah, a lot of people are, you know, because in.

In a lot of ways, you know, marriage is a legal thing.

It's a paperwork thing.

There are a lot of benefits to being married for those reasons.

But a lot of people are just like, yeah, let's just do this thing together.

Let's just do this life thing together, and you can be with somebody for 30, 40 years like that, no problem.

You know, I mean, it's very, very much the same thing in many ways.

Very cool.

So I'm just.

This is probably a personal question, but.

So this growth that you went through and you figuring out this own question on your own, is that your husband now?

Yes.

Okay.

So, yeah, so we've.

So, yeah, I was a very different person.

Let's see.

16.

So I was 32 when we.

When we met, and I'm 48 now.

And that's.

In a lot of ways, I was a hot mess is how I describe myself at that age.

Right.

And so I did a lot of personal growth.

I didn't have a good relationship with me, let alone, which is really the foundation to be able to Have a good relationship with somebody else.

So, you know, I did a lot of just work naturally because I was learning things and, you know, just, I've always been like, love to study and learn and grow.

And then I really started to apply things and think about things differently.

And when I got to have a better relationship with myself, I refer to myself as a recovering people pleaser.

So lots of changes there.

Yeah.

And it's impossible if one person in the relationship changes.

It is impossible for the relationship to not change.

Absolutely.

For the good or the bad.

I mean, it just has to change.

It just has to change.

It's just going to automatically happen.

And so.

And I was seeing some of this and I was like, oh, I'm starting to feel resentful.

I'm starting to, you know, and then I've got to really put the money where my mouth is and be like, we need to.

Not to.

For me to go to my walled off space, but to be like, okay, what are we.

What are we doing here?

Because these are the things that aren't working for me.

And he was like, yeah, I agree.

They're not working for me either.

And so that wasn't like, oh, good.

I'm glad we talked about that and got it all figured out.

Right.

That was just the beginning of the work in our marriage.

And so we've come a long way since then, but, you know, we still fumble through it sometimes and.

But we just know we're committed to, you know, the process.

Yeah.

And it is a process.

And.

And I think a lot of people especially, I feel like a lot of times the people that I know, a lot of the second marriages, it's doing exactly opposite of the first.

You know, there's all kinds of different reasons and that and everything, but.

Well, congratulations.

That's good.

Yeah.

No, it's.

It's just a really interesting.

It's a.

When you came on and I was like, oh, I don't know if I even want to talk about this.

This is like opening up a can of worms of.

Yeah.

Making it so easy.

But it's not easy.

Even if you.

Even if you decide, I don't want to do this and I don't want to mend this.

It's never easy.

No, it's.

Oh, no, it's not.

I mean, even when you make, you know, a choice, really, the work that I do with women is.

And again, with anyone is what I want is sometimes it's not even that.

When we finish our time together, you have like a definitive answer of like, oh, yes, we're getting a divorce or we're splitting up, or we're, you know, 100% staying together.

But you've been able to reconnect with yourself so that, you know, whatever choice you make moving forward, you're going to feel good about.

You're not going to be second guessing yourself.

You're not going to look back in six months and go, oh, man, did I, did I do the right thing?

Because you're going to have come to a place where you go, I know I'm making this place not from, you know, in the middle of a fight, from a place of urgency, but from a grounded place.

I reconnected with myself.

I know what's important to me.

I'm checking in with my values.

And from there I decide next steps.

And sometimes you go, yeah, we're going to, we're going to try to make this work.

That doesn't mean you're in it for the next 20 years.

I mean, we're going to try to.

Make it work right now.

We're going to.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it's, it's very nuanced.

Yeah.

And I think that is a very important point to make too, because every decision you make, it's not forever.

You can change your mind, you can change your decisions, but you have to do it from a place of truth, from a place of, you know, really embodying.

What is this going to look like?

How am I going to do this?

What am I willing to put into it?

What do I want to get out of it?

What do I want to be able to give?

I mean, that's a big thing too, because I know a lot of people that go through this.

I just don't, you know, they have that guilt around it.

Yeah.

And, and you have to kind of separate yourself a little bit from that and be like, okay, I have to, like you said, have a good relationship with myself.

And if it's based off of fear and guilt and shame.

Not gonna work.

It's not gonna work.

Yeah, that's a very, It's a short term strategy.

Then you're kind of like, you know, if, you know, you're living in fear, guilt and shame, that's only going to be tolerable for a short period of time.

I don't know how long that is.

You know, maybe that's two weeks, maybe it's two months, maybe it's two years.

But it's still short term.

No matter what, you can't sustain that.

And I don't want you to.

I Don't want anybody to be living in this place where they're like, not sure they're afraid of the consequences.

And so, you know, they don't know what's on the other side of that choice.

So they're just going to see, sit here and see if they can white knuckle it.

Like that's, that's no place for anybody to live.

No.

And that's a lot of what I do with my clients is working through that nervous system regulation stuff.

And there is no better, no worse easier way to dysregulate your nervous system than to be sitting in something that eats at you every single day of your life.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Because there's, you're just in that like fight, flight, fix constantly.

You're never out of it.

And that's a huge part of the work is, you know, because a lot of what I do is, okay, now we know what you want.

That's great.

Now how are you going to talk about it?

Because that can be so hard is like, well, I don't know.

We've never talked about this.

And if you're, if you're used to hard conversations having a negative outcome, then your whole body might be like, pass.

I'm just not going to.

So that's a lot of the work is like, okay, well let's get you to a place where you do feel comfortable doing.

Yes.

And it's, I mean, I'm sure you do like role playing.

Like, I mean, I'm sure you do because I did a whole episode on how to have hard conversations with people.

There's a lot of mental preparation.

There is.

Especially like you said, when you come from this non communicative or bad repercussions for speaking your mind or voicing something you need.

It's a hard conversation.

I can only imagine.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, no matter which way it goes again for the people out there listening, you can, you can make it, you can, you can get through it and you can use your resilience and use your tools that people like myself and Karen have.

And, and ultimately it's about what your insides, what your soul tells you you have to do or should be doing.

Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.

And that's why it's so important to have this to approach each situ, each person that I work with from a place of.

I don't know, you tell me.

I never, I, I don't ever.

I don't even.

I don't have to worry about saying it because I don't think and I don't feel it.

Like I have like, oh, you should do this.

Like, I don't know what you should do.

You.

But together we'll help you figure it out so that you can feel good about what you're doing next.

Right, Right.

And versus yes.

Because, you know, your friend comes to you and says, well, I did this and I did that.

And it's very easy to say, oh my God, I would never put up with the crap.

Yeah.

But at the same time it's like, well, what made him say that and how did that make you feel?

Yeah, yeah.

There's nothing surface.

It's always like, what's going on there.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Well, so do you have any other tips and tricks or maybe some things, some maybe self reflection questions besides the one big one that to see if maybe people might want to come work with you or need to know more?

I'm sorry, my dog is freaking out.

Stop messing.

I think what I really want to encourage people to consider is if you are not happy with what's going on now, even if you're, you know, maybe you're not sitting with, should I stay or should I go?

But you're just like, what I've got going on now doesn't work for me.

That is worth looking at more, you know, figure out what's going on there.

If you're not able to do that on your own, reach out to someone for some help and so that you can get the guidance so that you can get to a place where you figure out, oh, okay, I can make it work here, or I need to make it work somewhere different.

But you don't need to sit in that uncertainty or just feeling that coexistence, lack of happiness in your relationship and in your life.

So I just really encourage people to.

And I say this a lot on my podcast, like, raise the bar.

I. I want you to raise the bar and what you need to do to do that and the support you need to get to be able to do that, take those steps.

It's so important.

You don't, you don't need to.

I, it may not seem like it right now where you're sitting, but you don't need to keep living in this space of feeling disconnected and discontented.

So, yeah, and that is a perfect way of putting it is just raise the bar.

Because I know I've said so many times when I'm just like miserable and people like, well, why do you do that?

I'm like, and then I get Thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, I guess my expectations aren't very high, so I'm pretty content with the bar.

Pretty low.

You're right.

That's what we do.

We tend to do that.

Raise the bar.

Yeah.

Wow.

So people want to work with you.

Where do they find you so you.

Can learn more about me and how you can work with me at A Better Relationship Coaching dot com.

I do have a podcast about a relationship in five minutes, so you can find me there also.

And if you'd like to set up a free call with me, that will be in the show notes along with my website information.

Okay.

You said your podcast is called a bet, and I will put all of that in the show notes so you guys can find everything.

Don't.

Don't try to write while you're driving.

That's my biggest tip.

Your podcast is called A Better Relationship in five Minutes.

Yeah.

So is it five minute episodes or is it five minute tips?

Nope, they're five minute.

I mean, sometimes I get a little talky, so they may be like seven or eight minutes, but generally they're about five minute episodes because I want people to be able to listen, get something useful out of each episode, and then kind of keep going.

And so, yeah, a Better relationship in five minutes.

Oh, my gosh.

And you need to transcribe all of those into a book.

Yes, Well, I actually would.

I am working on a book right now, so, you know, maybe I can come back another time and we can talk about that when that's done.

Oh, yeah, no, I'm just thinking I'm picturing all these spots because that's what people need.

People need.

What can I do right now, right here, today, to put something into practice or just a question to self reflect on or something to move.

Move the needle forward?

Yeah.

Yep.

Absolutely.

Yep.

And so.

And that's really what it is.

It's just kind of like tips, advice, you know, thoughts to kind of shake you out of your.

Your, you know, what you're sitting in now that maybe you feel stuck in.

Just to give you, like a reframe, a different perspective.

Some.

Some place to kind of like, kickstart something.

Love that.

Absolutely love that.

Thank you for that, Karen.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna go subscribe to that podcast right now, actually, so.

Well, thank you again for coming on.

I so appreciate you.

Oh, it's been great being here.

Thank you.

You're very welcome.

For everybody else out there, you heard it.

Just raise the bar.

Raise the bar.

And set it high enough.

You know how I always say?

I always say, treat yourself and set your standards and set your expectations like you would for someone that you love more than life.

Your sister, your daughter, your friend, your.

Whoever it is, raise the bar and set those expectations that way for yourself.

Because you so deserve it.

You so deserve it.

Yes.

So thank you very much for everybody, and we will see you back here next week.

Bye.

Bye.