Fiona Hitchiner: 00:00:09

Hello and welcome.

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I'm Fiona Hitchner and I am the

Strategic Partnerships Director of

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Education Provider, Parents at Work.

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I'm really delighted to have join

me today's podcast, Yasmin London.

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Yasmin is Executive Director of ySafe, who

are social media and cyber safety experts.

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We've developed today's podcast to

coincide with Safer Internet Day

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to raise awareness and hopefully

inspire some conversation about online

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safety with parents and children.

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Yasmin has a really interesting background

and story of how she became involved in

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cyber safety, and I'll let her share that.

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But just to give you a little bit of

an insight into her experience, she did

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spend over 13 years in the New South

Wales police force, eight of those as

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a specialist youth liaison officer.

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She then founded ySafe with her

partners to help raise awareness and

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provide education on cyber safety.

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So welcome Yasmin and thank

you for joining us today.

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Yasmin London: Thank you for having me.

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It's a pleasure to be here.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Before we go on to some

specific questions, um, I just wanted you

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to tell us a bit, a bit about yourself

and how you got involved in cyber safety.

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Cause I know you've got a,

quite an interesting story here.

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Yasmin London: Yeah, look, there

was a couple of different things

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that happened to me, um, mainly

when I was a police officer.

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So around sort of 2012, 2013, I

worked as a youth liaison officer

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in the eastern suburbs of Sydney.

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And, uh, I suppose the first, to the

power of the internet and young people

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was a suicide negotiation that I was

involved in, uh, in involving a young 14

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year old girl and some cyber bullying,

uh, that happened to her on Instagram.

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And, you know, it was one of those

real watershed moments when I was

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talking to her about what had happened

where I suppose I fully understood at

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that point, uh, that online actions

truly do have offline consequences.

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So, you know, that was

a real awakening for me.

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And, uh, around that same time, I actually

had a video of myself dancing with a

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gentleman in Martin place in the city.

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I was in police uniform.

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I had this video that went viral.

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So I was, uh, I was down there

at a community engagement event.

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You know, I thought I was gonna, you know,

engage the community really well, when I

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had a bit of a dance off with this guy,

and And, uh, that interaction was filmed

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by a tourist and uploaded to YouTube.

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And, you know, 6.

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6 million views later, uh, you

know, I was labeled the dancing cop.

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So I suppose, you know, those two

experiences really helped me understand,

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you know, this area that at that point

in time, I didn't know a whole lot

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about and it really encouraged me to

learn more about it so that I could help

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young people and their parents and the

schools that are dealing with this sort

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of stuff as much as I possibly could.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Great.

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And it really is interesting when you

sort of talk about the online actions

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have offline consequences because

that's, you know, something I think that

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many of us who have not been brought

up with, um, technology and social

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media, you know, still not quite still

haven't really got our heads around.

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And even when you're talking about then

Instagram, you know, it was through

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incident on Instagram, which you think

is fairly harmless, um, type of social

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media, um, that, you know, it can

have such devastating consequences.

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Yeah.

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Um, As I mentioned, it's obviously it's

Safer Internet Awareness Day and the

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theme is Together for a Better Internet.

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So, really keen to get your thoughts

on what this, you feel this means for

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parents and workplaces and what we can

be doing as parents and in organizations

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to help create a better internet.

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Yasmin London: Look, I really love the,

the, I suppose, idea that the byline

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for, for internet safety awareness

day this year, because it really is

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all of our responsibilities to create

a safer environment, not just for our

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kids, but also for ourselves online.

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It's no one person's responsibility

or one group's responsibility.

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We all need to pay attention to how we can

equip ourselves with skills and knowledge

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to manage what happens in the online

environment in a positive way for us.

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So what that means for parents is,

you know, at a really sort of base

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level, is starting to understand

what's happening online and why our

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kids are actually so invested and

interested in what's happening there.

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It's also about making sure that we're

really positive role models so that we

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can help them develop healthy habits.

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You know, I always sort of say

you can't be what you can't see.

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And we really need to keep that

in the back of our minds when it

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comes to, you know, showcasing

positive behaviors for our kids

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and how they should behave online.

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Um, you know, they can learn,

but they learn best from what

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they see in front of them.

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Uh, when it comes to a workplace,

you know, this is why ySafe got

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into workplace education sessions

because this was such a water cooler

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conversation topic for their employees.

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Not just the, not even just the

ones that were parents as well.

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People that were aunts and friends

and everybody felt a bit disempowered

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as to how to manage the issues that

they were seeing in their kids lives.

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And it was, it was causing a lot

of distraction in the workplace.

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And I suppose, for an organization

that results in lost productivity,

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that results in, you know,

distract a distracted workforce.

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So, you know, it's really important

that we all sort of start to understand

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that the online world is a real thing,

impacting employees in a real way.

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It's not an invisible problem.

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So it's something that, you know, it's

great that certain workplaces are starting

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to support education in this space.

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Um, I suppose the last one that I

think of when I think of together

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better for a better internet is

that I think of schools as well.

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You know, they're drowning in

responsibility and you know,

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there's so many things that

they're expected to teach kids.

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And so often, you know, we, we

want to play the blame game.

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So the parents might say, well, this

incident happened between two students

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that are in the same year at school.

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Therefore, it's a school issue.

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And we like to kind of pass the buck

sometimes, and it's not really fair.

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So, you know, schools do the absolute

best that they can, but we really all

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need to play our part in making, making

the internet a safer place for everybody.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Totally

couldn't agree more.

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And like you say, um, you know, we,

when we have run these sessions, um,

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you know, the, the feedback has been

quite phenomenal from, um, like you

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say, you know, it really is a topic

of great interest, um, you know,

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particularly for parents of all ages.

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Um, but I know that some of the people

that we've spoken to when they're moving

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into those teen years or preteens, it

is becomes a particular concern, but

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having that education and awareness

even prior to they get to that.

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So you could, like you say, you can set

some boundaries and be that role model,

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um, before it gets to, um, you know,

it can become a bit more challenging.

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Um, so just really keen, um, to get a

couple more, you know, some more thoughts

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on you and in terms of, you know, when

we've spoken before, you're great at

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providing some really practical examples,

but how can we work together to make the

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online world a bit safer for our kids?

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Yasmin London: Look, I think if

we're all proactive in our own self

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directed learning in some way, shape

or form, so, you know, making sure

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that you have a bit of an understanding

about the risks, uh, that exists

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on, that exist on the internet.

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And, you know, I suppose we see lots

of different things in the media.

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You know, they're often the

extreme end of the spectrum.

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You know, when we say kids that have

maybe harmed themselves or we're trolling

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behavior or something along those lines.

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Um, you know, it can be really easy for

us to get sucked into the drama and lose

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our balanced attitude to the online world.

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And that's something that

we really try to do it.

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Why safe is give people

a balanced perspective.

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Practical strategies so that they

feel empowered to manage it, you know,

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for parents, uh, you know, and anyone

dealing with kids, you know, I say

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parents, but this is so much such a

bigger circle of people around them,

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you know, it really, really helps them

to understand how to, if they have

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some sort of understanding in terms of

how to manage their children's online

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world, they don't need to be tech savvy.

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Uh, we're seeing with a lot of people,

they feel disempowered because, you know,

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they're not as tech savvy as their kids.

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They don't really know how to

manage Snapchat or Instagram.

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Uh, and they don't need to, you know,

we just need to go back to basics with

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the same strategies that you use in any

other area of your parenting life or

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time with kids, you know, boundaries,

communication, uh, making sure that

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you are putting rules in place.

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Uh, and explaining why those

rules are important, controlling

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things that way will help you

manage things in the long term.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Great.

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Thank you.

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And what do you think in terms of some of

the top risks that we need to be aware of?

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Um, you know, do you have, do

you think parents and children

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are aware enough of the risks?

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Do you think we're aware

enough of the risks?

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And what do you think are some of the

sort of key things that parents should,

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or as you say, carers should be aware of?

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Yasmin London: Yeah, look, I think people

in my experience, parents or carers

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tend to fall into one of two categories.

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They are really across everything and

quite scared of the internet and, you

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know, are very strict in their approach.

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And then there are people that are

quite ambivalent and just think nothing

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bad will happen to me or my kids.

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Often because nothing bad has happened

to them as an adult, you know, so their

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attitudes are based on their experience

and so they think their children will

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never have a bad experience as well.

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So we need to understand that the way

that we interact with technology is

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adults is sometimes very, very different

to the risks that opposed to kids.

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So if I were to pick say two, uh, top

risks for parents and carers, the number

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one for me is Uh, in game chat functions

or any opportunity where kids are exposed

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to a conversation with a stranger.

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That is a really, really big

problem for a number of reasons.

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Uh, but what we do see is any time where

kids are able to speak to strangers,

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you know, adults are very intuitive.

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They're sophisticated in their language

and they've, they've got ways and means

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to kind of draw kids in when they are

unaware that that's actually happening.

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So, you know, when we're speaking to

strangers, we don't know who they are.

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We don't know what their motivations

are and, you know, that they

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can be pretty coercive at times.

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The other thing is exposure

to inappropriate content.

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So I think, you know, we've seen a lot

over the past sort of 18 months with, you

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know, things like the, the Christchurch

shooting, for example, being live streamed

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on Facebook and, you know, when it's in

real time, we can't prevent kids from

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being exposed to that sort of content.

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And in fact, that was the number one key

concern out of the recent research from

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the office of the e safety commissioner

when it came to parents, uh, and, and

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what they wanted more information on,

uh, you know, it was, rated higher

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than cyberbullying, rated higher than

sharing nude images, things like that.

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They were concerned about

exposure to inappropriate content.

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So that can include, you know,

radical opinions and content.

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It can relate to pornography,

lots of different things.

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So, you know, if I had to pick

two, those would be the ones that

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I'd self educate on as a priority.

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Fiona Hitchiner: And that's really

interesting when you sort of mentioned

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there the number one uh, exposure

to inappropriate content and what

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are the some of the strategies

or things that parents can think

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about to try and limit that then.

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Yasmin London: Look, I think the

number one thing, depending on the

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age of the Children, of course.

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But if you have, say, younger kids,

primary school age, uh, up to, you

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know, early teens is making sure that

you have some kind of parental control

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tool on the devices that will help

filter inappropriate content out, uh,

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in line with the age of the child.

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So there's a range of

different ones out there.

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Uh, we use one called family zone.

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That's one that we, we support quite a lot

as, as a really, really, uh, easy to use,

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uh, tool, but there's, there's so many,

so you've got to find which one works for

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you and do you due diligence, but, but

having something that's going to do that

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job for you by filtering content that they

might be exposed to in the first place.

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And then secondly, there is no

replacement for parents being

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involved in their kids online lives.

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Knowing what they're actually looking

at, uh, checking their search history

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every now and then, and making sure

that if they do come across something

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that makes them feel upset or has been

inappropriate, that they know they

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can come and talk to you about it.

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We see so often, uh, that kids, uh,

Uh, hesitant to speak to their parents

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about, you know, the things that they've

seen or something that has upset them

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because they fear that the parents won't

understand and they fear that a response

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to that, uh, and that as a parent feeling,

you know, disempowered or not quite

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knowing what to do, that the response

is to take away the device or take away

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the platform or take away the game and

that's not a good outcome for kids.

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You know, they, they, They basically

perceive that as a punishment for

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them coming to actually receive help.

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So that's a really, really important one,

uh, knowing where to get some information.

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If you see something inappropriate,

making sure that we're talking to

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kids about reporting the things

that we see, uh, as a second step.

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So making sure that they're, they're

getting the help they need, but

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they're also taking steps and measures

to prevent other young people from

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being exposed to the same thing.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Great, thank you.

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Some really good advice there.

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Um, in terms of, um, you mentioned

obviously bullying before, um,

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and that is obviously a very real

reality and a real concern for a

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lot of families, at the moment.

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Yasmin London: Mm hmm.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Where can parents go to

get help if they feel that their kids are

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being bullied or are having issues online?

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Yasmin London: Yeah, absolutely.

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There's a, there's a range of

different resources that parents

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can go to for help, depending on the

severity of the situation as well.

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So it always starts by having a, you

know, a really good, honest chat with

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their, with their kids and finding out

what's going on in the background, if

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there is a story happening and maybe

trying to help them problem solve the

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situation in person, but if you want

to get further resources, the Office

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of the E Safety Commissioner, which

is the overarching government body

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when it comes to cyber safety related

issues, has around, I think it's 300

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resources on their website, but they

have a very specific parenting portal.

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So, you know, it'll include

things like conversation

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starters, reporting mechanisms.

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So, you know, if somebody's targeting

someone else, you know how to go

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onto that platform and actually

block that person and report them.

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There is of course the police, but you

know, not every situation, you know, wants

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or needs to have the police involved,

but they're certainly there and they

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have powers around provisional violence

orders and, and different legislative

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aspects that can provide some protection.

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Uh, schools are often, you know, a

really good place to start as well.

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Having, you know, informal chats with

teachers, with year coordinators,

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with deputy principals or principals

about what's actually going on and

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working collaboratively to try and,

uh, you know, reduce the issues if

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it's happening between two people,

you know, who know each other.

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Uh, and then for kids as well, I always

really like to suggest the kids helpline.

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And e headspace mainly because a lot

of the time kids when they're having

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these sorts of issues, you know, they

don't really want to come forward.

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They fear that if they talk

about something to their parents,

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sometimes it might get blown

out of proportion, you know.

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Parents might, might take

things to the extreme.

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So if they just want to talk to someone,

they can call up the kids helpline.

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Uh, they can speak anonymously.

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They'll speak directly to a psychologist,

uh, and they can say as much or as little

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as I actually want to, and they can give

really good strategic advice as well.

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And eHeadspace is an online component

of the Headspace organization, where

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again, they can speak to someone

anonymously and on a platform or on a

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device that they're comfortable with.

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So if they don't want to speak to someone

on the phone, they can literally have an

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in conversation chat on their computers

or their, on their mobile phones.

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So there's a range of different

places that you can go to for help.

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Fiona Hitchiner: That's amazing, and

it's great that, you know, a lot of

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the time we're just not even aware

that these resources are available.

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That's, that's fantastic.

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Um, one more question, um, for you Yasmin,

and it's been really great to get your

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feedback on all of this and your insights.

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What are some of the, um, And again,

this is probably quite a hot topic

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for, for many parents and carers.

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Um, what are some of the practical

strategies that they, parents or

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carers can use to get kids off devices

when they want them to have a break?

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Yasmin London: Oh, the tech

tantrums, we've all experienced them.

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Look, uh, there's a couple of

different things that you can

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do that are often helpful.

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So, you know, the obvious one is to,

is to have countdowns and warnings.

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See if you're going to, ask your child

to get off a game or off social media

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or stop watching YouTube or Netflix is

making sure that we're preparing them.

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But also before they actually

start watching anything or

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participating in anything, outlining

the boundaries, how much time.

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I like to be really proactive.

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So you know, you can be extreme and

get a calendar and be proactive about

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developing certain periods of your week

that your kids are allowed screen time.

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Uh, and then one that I really, really

like to, to think of when I'm trying to

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get my kids off of their devices is to

think of some kind of transition activity.

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So I don't just go in

and say, right, it's off.

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That's it.

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I try to think of something to divert

their attention quickly, uh, away

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from what they're actually doing.

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And, you know, physical activities

are really, really good.

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So.

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So I might say, I need you to walk

with me to the shop to get something

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to get some, you know, groceries

or some bread, or I need you to

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help mummy sweep up the front yard.

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You know, my kids are young, it's

much harder with, with older kids,

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but trying to think of some kind

of transition activity to quickly

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divert their attention can sometimes

be really, really helpful as well.

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Um, for younger kids as, as well, I've,

I've had parents tell me that sometimes

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they use, uh, the little, um, hourglass.

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So, you know, they'll.

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I'll turn that over and kids can

reference how much longer they've got,

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you know, to go with the hourglass.

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But it's a bit of trial and error

and, you know, just paying, paying

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attention to what works for your

family, because it's, it's not, you

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know, a one size fits all scenario,

but those are things that I like to do.

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Fiona Hitchiner: Again, really good

practical examples of what we can all do.

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Um, and as you say, is

all of our responsibility.

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It isn't just schools or, um, you

know, individuals, it's all of our

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responsibility to think about what we

can to do to role model, um, how we

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use the internet and the conversations

and the boundaries, et cetera.

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So thank you.

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Really great.

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practical strategies.

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Um, and if anyone is interested

in learning more about the work

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that Yasmin does with her team at

ySafe and the work that Parents

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At Work do, then please reach out.

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Thank you, Yasmin.

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As always, such a delight to talk to you.

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: 00:19:56

Yasmin London: Thank you

so much for having me.

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: 00:19:57

It's been a real pleasure to come

and speak with you and absolutely

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love the work that we're doing

together with you at Parents at Work.

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: 00:20:04

Fiona Hitchiner: Thanks, Yasmin.

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: 00:20:05

Take care.

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: 00:20:06

Yasmin London: You too.

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: 00:20:08

Emma Walsh: Thank you for listening

to another great podcast proudly

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: 00:20:10

brought to you by Parents at Work.

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: 00:20:12

We hope you feel inspired and you've

got some fresh practical ideas to

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: 00:20:15

help you with your work life balance.

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: 00:20:18

And remember, if you need extra support,

or would like to send us your feedback,

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: 00:20:22

please email info@parentsatwork.com.Au.