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The Evolution of Marketing Operations - Darrell Alfonso
Episode 8 • 19th November 2023 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
00:00:00 00:46:40

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What lies ahead for marketing operations? How can it become more strategic and impactful?

Darrell Alfonso has spent the past ten years answering these questions through his work at companies like AWS and Indeed. He's also dedicated himself to moving the discipline of marketing ops forward as an author, teacher, speaker, and thought-leader.

In this episode, he shares his vision of how marketing operations can encompass both strategy and technical expertise and describes how MOPS practitioners can level-up in their careers.

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About Today's Guest

Darrell Alfonso is a 2x Marketo Champion, course instructor, Author of "The Martech Handbook", and frequent speaker and thought-leader.

He's held marketing and operations leadership positions at Indeed, Amazon Web Services, Hitwise, and the American Marketing Association.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrellalfonso/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [00:58] - Darrell's definition of marketing operations: the art and science of executing great marketing. Key pillars: planning and strategy, technology management, process design, analytics, business alignment.
  • [02:48] - Evolution of marketing ops from being tech-centric to business-centric.
  • [04:59] - Challenges of that evolutionary process. Potential discomfort within ops of moving into a role where they have revenue accountability. MOPS people have an allegiance to craft, but should focus on what the business needs.
  • [07:43] - Risk of feeling powerless or misunderstood. Need for operators to better communicate our value.
  • [09:25] - Darrell's background in communications and how it's impacted his career. The importance of communication within operations and how it's helped him grow as a leader. Internal communication is not about being self-promotional. It's about playing together effectively as a team (analogy of a sports team).
  • [14:43] - How Darrell's role combines both strategy and operations. Strategy is the set of choices we make in service of an objective. Tactics at one level of the business become the strategy for the next level. Discussion of how this applies within Darrell's current company.
  • [26:08] - Description of Darrell's team and how it functions. How marketing technology sits within a separate Business Systems function.
  • [29:46] - What Darrell's ideal org structure would look like. Pros and cons of separating tech into a Business Systems group. Need for technologists to have technical leadership. Similar issue applies with SDRs and whether they report into marketing or sales.
  • [36:25] - Building a personal brand in marketing operations. Benefits and how to do it. Difference between personal branding and cultivating an audience.

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

Welcome to Rev Ops fm everyone.

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Today gonna dig into how ops and

strategy connect with each other,

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support each other, and really what

it means to become more strategic

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as ops practitioners and leaders.

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And we have the right person to talk

to today because our guest is Daryl

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Alfonso, director of both marketing

strategy and operations at . Indeed.

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He's also held former leadership

roles at Amazon Hitwise, the

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American Marketing Association.

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He's a course instructor at MarTech

Alliance and the author of the

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MarTech Handbook, and he finds

time to sleep somewhere all that.

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welcome to the show.

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Darrell Alfonso: Hey, thanks for

having me, appreciate the opportunity.

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I love this conversation.

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And, I mean, I'm a big fan of

your thought leadership too.

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Justin Norris: a lot.

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I appreciate that.

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Darrell Alfonso: we're

both in the right room.

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Justin Norris: Awesome.

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Well, I want to just start it

out by asking do you define

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the scope of marketing ops?

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It's kind of a thing where we all

sort of know what it is generally,

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but it's hard to tell where it ends.

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Where it begins.

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So, in your various roles, where

draw lines around that function?

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Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, aspirationally

I think of marketing ops as art and

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science of executing great marketing.

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So I always like to put that up on the,

like, like on a billboard of like the,

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the major direction that we want to go.

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I think historically marketing ops

has been really the tools, metrics

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and processes enable marketing.

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I think that's changing.

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know, I think that both you and I

grew up in that, era where it was

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heavily based on the technology.

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and the marketing ops role was to

Manage and just drive the adoption

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and overall, use MarTech to help

marketers get to their goals.

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It's like that was kind of like

the goal of marketing operations.

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Justin Norris: Yep.

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Darrell Alfonso: changing.

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that me, think marketing

operations has oversight into

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these like, A few key areas.

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One is planning and strategy.

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I love that.

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Two is technology management, I

think encompasses most of what, we,

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talking about nexus process design,

you know, oversight over into like

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how do we, campaigns out the door?

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do marketers do to work with the various

sides of the business, engage customers?

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The fourth one is analytics,

like marketing, business

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intelligence, marketing analytics.

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And then finally, I like to

call this business alignment.

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another way to put this, McKinnon,

for example, calls this category

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support and administration.

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That's inevitably what it does.

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It's like there's things that break,

There's things that just need fixing.

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But for me, I like the word business

alignment it, encompasses all the

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little things that you need to do

so that the entire go-to-market

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function works together smoothly.

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I think, is the future of marketing

operations, those five categories.

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Justin Norris: I think you're right

that historically been kind of it

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for marketing, you know, really

focused on that tooling category.

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And now more and more, and I've

seen you posts about this, you

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other people talk about it.

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Something I've spoken about kind of

coming out of bubble and expanding

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to other areas of the business.

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Do you feel as a discipline we are

struggling with that process, or

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do you feel that it's, it's moving

along the way that it should?

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Darrell Alfonso: I think

the business as a whole.

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Businesses in general are

calling out for us as marketing

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operators to step into that role.

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I think that the biggest opportunity

right now, or maybe even gap,

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that many marketing ops people,

even really smart ones, a little

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bit reluctant to step into it.

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I think that, you know,

I love the technology.

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a Marketo champ, two time

Marketo champion back in the day.

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And that means that I love

figuring out how to solve problems.

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I love to build, know, that's what

I think for a lot, a lot of people

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get attracted marketing operations

in the, in the first place.

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always said that if you're doing

marketing, automation a platform

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that's capable of supporting what

you wanna do, I think that it's

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really just pseudo programming.

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you know, and we are architecting

these solutions and that is, very

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compelling and so And, what originally

drew me that to the profession.

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Justin Norris: Me too.

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Darrell Alfonso: think that, I

think that it is the same for a lot

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of technical experts we can fall

into the trap of in love with just

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this specific part and doing a good

job with the technology is where we

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stop and that's what we aspire to.

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And that, I think, is the biggest

gap between where marketing operators

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are and where they should be.

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And it's going to take Many of us,

you know, I think, I think myself

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and many other people in the space,

we're marketing operators step up,

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like not away from the technology, but

to bring up the technology into the

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business, the business objectives and

overall, uh, the customer experience.

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And that's what I think I,

that's where I think the gap is.

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Justin Norris: technology

things are very black and white.

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You know, it works or it doesn't work.

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It passes or it fails.

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It's a one or a zero.

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obviously there's issues around

communication and does it meet

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requirements and lots of ambiguity, but

it's kind of a place of, safety and it

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creates a buffer between marketers who

are responsible for business results

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and, you know, ops people who are.

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I do the tech, I enable you.

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If it doesn't work, it's your problem.

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Now, once we step more into

planning and strategy, that

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buffer is harder to maintain.

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There's actually a much

greater accountability.

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You are more on the line business results.

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And can be a scary thing for people

that, started out as marketers

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and maybe didn't like that aspect

of it or just didn't start there

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and, and find that intimidating.

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Do you think there's any truth to that?

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Darrell Alfonso: A little bit.

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I think that maybe some truth in that

it can be a little bit scary, hold

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ourselves accountable to things that we

been held accountable to before, that,

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to things that we can't really control.

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my theory, like, and I, I was reading

up on this earlier, my theory is that

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the big issue is actually marketing

operations has an allegiance to the craft.

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And what I mean by that is that we feel

that it's our role and it's only our

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role build a world class tech stack.

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or build.

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World class processes, and that's the

end to itself, which can be fairly noble,

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know, especially if you're maybe in the

consulting space or maybe a little bit

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on the academic side, where you just

kind of study it for the sake of it.

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what you're lacking, I think is the

overall ownership that's required.

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that's where kind of

leadership comes into play.

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Like it's not enough, like you said,

for this binary outcome to happen.

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It's more of we need to work together

with the different sides of the group

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to make sure the business is successful.

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if that's sometimes means things

that's not aligned with what we feel is

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world-class marketing operations, then We

have a responsibility to our organizations

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and to our customers to do that.

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Justin Norris: I agree

with you completely.

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it's a shift in focus from being

A craftsperson, a technician.

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And, still need those things.

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And I should, also for the benefit

of anyone listening, I think as an

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individual, it's completely valid

to say, actually that's who I am.

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I am a technical architect.

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That's the role that I want

to play in this whole machine.

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know, that's where I excel.

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And I can understand that completely,

but for the function as a whole,

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I think it has to do more and

it has to be impact oriented.

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And that's what I'm taking away

from what you're saying, that

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it's not enough to say, I, I

built this really nice tech stack.

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My marketing team missed its goals,

but my tech stack is spotless.

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that's not good outcome for

the business, obviously.

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Darrell Alfonso: Well, yeah, and you

and I have talked about this before,

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and while you're right, it's, you

know, admirable and, and a good job

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to, to be that sort of like technical

expert or subject matter expert.

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what we see a lot of times, especially

with people progressing in their career

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is they get into this like, woe is me.

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Type and mentality of like,

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I'm doing a good job, but everyone

else doesn't recognize it.

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doing a good job, marketing

leadership doesn't appreciate me.

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And that's, that to me is not

the place that you want to be in.

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You know, it's a very like, I don't

wanna say learned helplessness, but

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it's something along those lines Here's

something that I've, realized in my

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journey through leadership and especially

like stepping into leadership roles.

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If you have the opinion that only

other group or if only someone else

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would change the way that they're

working, everything would be fine.

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That's not the right attitude to have,

and that's the, that's the type of me,

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that's the type of message that I'm

trying to, to send to marketing ops people

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like, yeah, times are tough and yeah,

it's difficult for non-technical folk

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to understand the value of our work and

why it's so important, it's not their

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fault and if we need to lead the way in

sort of bringing together and marrying

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strategy, impact, and technology, then

we are the ones to do it we should do it.

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Justin Norris: I couldn't

agree with you more.

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We have to see ourselves as, having

agency in that process and not

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just being the victims of other

people's, ignorance or lack of

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appreciation or anything like that.

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talked about, you know, the message

you're trying to communicate and.

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I was looking at your LinkedIn profile

in preparation for this discussion and

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was struck by how many of your earlier

roles were actually in pure marketing

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or even in communications, like you

had a communications and I haven't

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seen that many people go from comms to

ops and, and so I was just wondering

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about what that transition looked like

for you you drawing upon that today?

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Darrell Alfonso: Yeah,

that that's a good point.

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I think that, you know, early on

in my career, I, to be honest, I

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just wanted to it's kind of funny.

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really just wanted to get a high paying

marketing job, you know, and, uh, I

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didn't have as much experience, you

know, when you're like, you're outta

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college and you just, you have a couple

years and some sort of like analyst or

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generalist roles and those don't pay well.

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I saw that, oh, you know what?

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like if I owned the marketing

automation platform, was able to

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build a tech stack for people.

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Not only is it pretty well

paid, but it's highly respected.

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Like you get included in a lot of like

a lot of top level meetings, even with,

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even with not too much experience.

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And that was kind of like

my first entrance into you

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know, this builder mentality.

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I'm like, well, wow, I really like that.

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I did start to, you know, like at Hitwise

for example, I had a very marketing role.

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Where oversaw, sales development well

as general marketing and demand gen.

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but at with small teams, you can

always have your interest, I think,

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and I've always been interested

in operations but I think because

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I've always kind of straddled those

two roles and I've always taken a

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particular interest in communication.

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it's really helped me, I think,

get to this kind of stage.

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I really do think the missing

skillset that requires that jump

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from, let's say, marketing operations

practitioner to marketing operations

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leader more than 90% communication.

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I, I really, I really think it is, My

last role at, at a w s I think that

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one of the challenges that I had was I

almost kind of pigeonholed myself as a

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technologist, admittedly started to fall

into trap of doing things the right way.

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Like, why isn't everything

falling into place?

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It must be the other people.

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I think that shift for me, I moved

over to Indeed, into even an even

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higher leadership role and, and more

oversight into strategy, into people

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leadership, I doubled down this theory

that if I could improve my communication

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skills, I think I could grow my career.

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And it's proved right so far.

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last thing I'll mention about that is

that I think when you study communication

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and people, what happens is you're better

able to translate what's happening.

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I think that that's been a really

big one for me too, being able to

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translate what the data means, what

the technology means, what happens if

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all of the work, all of the great work

that we as marketing operators do, what

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happens if that doesn't take place?

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What happens if that doesn't occur?

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What's the impact of the business?

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I've been really happy.

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With the progress that I've made, that

my team's made, of this shift in mindset.

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Justin Norris: And there's a great

lesson there I think of every marketing

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operations senior leader that I know in

my personal network at the director level,

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the VP level, or even just people that

I see on LinkedIn and this ability to

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communicate is, common theme all of them.

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look at work that, I do in my own team,

and it's the same thing and I think maybe

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part of the challenge is you feel

if you're just like coming back

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to that commitment to craft, if

you're a craftsperson, you feel

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I'm just going to do my best work.

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and people will notice it, and it can feel

a little bit uncomfortable to toot your

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own horn to appear to be self-promotional.

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people can shy away from that.

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But I think.

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you can't just wait around for people

to recognize that you have to go

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out there and explain the value.

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And now, in many ways, I view that as

the most important part of my job with

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anything that we're doing in my team.

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Or like if if I'm working member of

the marketing ops team on a task, it's

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like, all right, what is the impact?

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What is the story like, thinking

ahead presenting this to the rest of

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the team once it's all said and done.

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Which is not just the communications

aspect, but it really does ground

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you in what is the impact that

I'm having and make sure that

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you're not wasting your time.

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So I think there's a double

benefit there as well.

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Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, the point

that you made around like, Hey, I'm

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worried that it's self emotional.

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I don't think of it that way.

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I did think of it that

way, but I don't anymore.

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What I more think about is it's like

a sports team, it's soccer, football,

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or basketball, a team communicating

to each other about what's happening.

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you're calling out a play, you're

yelling out to your teammate to watch

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out for something if you're guiding

them to, do something because you're

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gonna score at the end, if you don't

say anything, none of that happens.

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your teammates don't know what's happening

and your you're sort of guessing the

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entire, play will play out on the field.

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how I consider things like, marketing

operations Q B R, presentations,

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demo days, stakeholders.

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speaking up at all hands meetings,

speaking up at leadership meetings.

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That's what we're doing.

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We're calling things out and we're

doing so in service of the mission.

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if any of your listeners are, wary about

being too self-promotional, I think that

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they should consider the danger of not

communicating that danger is very real.

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Justin Norris: Yep.

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Just be the person down the end

zone waiting to get the ball and no

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one knows they're there, you know?

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Darrell Alfonso: Yeah.

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and what do you say?

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Like, well, I did my part.

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I'm here.

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must be everyone else.

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That's wrong.

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Right.

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It must be everybody else.

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And that's, it's not true.

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Justin Norris: let's dive deeper

into strategy and operations, which

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so interested in this topic because.

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know, we have a business culture that

privileges strategy, like like being

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strategic is inherently a compliment.

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It's a positive thing.

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Everybody wants to be strategic.

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Even now you're in a

role wearing both hats.

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I've seen some people do this

before, so it's not, unheard of,

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but it's also not super common.

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So I'm just curious for you, what does

it mean, how do you define your role?

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How, how do these two things come

together in the work that you do?

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Darrell Alfonso: in short, I really think

that is about answering tough questions

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the choices that you're gonna make.

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the definition of strategy as the

set of choices that we make in

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service of some objective, right?

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Because if you choose to do

something, are by default choosing

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not to do something else, right?

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Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

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Darrell Alfonso: choose Marketo,

you've not chosen Pardot,

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you've not chosen hard spot.

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if you choose a, a centralized,

source of truth strategy, you're,

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you're not choosing, you know, a, a

different version of a data strategy.

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So, so strategy is choice.

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The other thing that people

don't get about strategy is

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that there's different levels.

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Because choices are made at every level.

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so if you think about the company strategy

about like which markets we should enter,

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which products that we, we should produce,

and which customers should we target?

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Those are like really

big strategies, right?

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it comes to the marketing section, the

marketing might be tactics in service

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of the, company level strategy, but

for us marketers, is the strategy.

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So at each level, the

tactics become the strategy.

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So that's like a really

interesting concept that, that

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I, I try to explain to people.

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so, what that leads me to say is

that when it comes to marketing, I'm

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overseeing operations, I'm al also

overseeing the choices in which we make.

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In order to try to achieve

our marketing goals.

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And these strategies could be something

like, do we take a centralized or

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decentralized approach to the way

that we do, campaign building?

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builds it?

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Is it regional pods of people?

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at a w s for example, anyone could

build largely decentralized, you know,

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Microsoft at least, you know, when I talk

to my colleagues over there, . They have

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a big centralized organization, right?

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They call this global demand center.

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Darrell Alfonso: this is kinda like a

choice that you have to make, you do that

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based on, factors that are to your org.

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You know, do you have the talent to do it?

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What's the tooling look like?

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Are the tools centralized and

standardized so that anyone can use it?

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If not, you know, or if, if it requires

some technical talent, you know,

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you, you probably should, should move

to more of a centralized function.

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I, I think that there's a number of those

questions that, you know, people have

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this wrong impression that there's like

one gold standard way of doing marketing

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operations, It's just not, it's not true.

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It's not true at all.

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one of the things that I'm

working on right now like this

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concept of like, what's our mix?

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Right.

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What's our mix of people

that build campaigns?

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What's our mix of, internal talent,

external talent an agency for

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example, that typically have a little

bit more technical skills, right?

339

:

They, they, some coding, maybe

they know some, some development.

340

:

then, you know, maybe some

contracting talent, like people

341

:

we bring on specifically for this.

342

:

what's that right mix that I, that

I'm, that I'm trying to get to now?

343

:

And it's not kind of firm, but I

love the idea that for some of our

344

:

largest campaigns, like let's say

user conference, let's say customer

345

:

wide nurture all prospects coming

into the funnel, large campaigns that

346

:

we do, think that those should be in

hand, Attached to internal employees.

347

:

You know, I think that number

one, they can be in all the

348

:

meetings with all of these people.

349

:

They can get ahead of the strategy.

350

:

the other thing that a lot of people don't

think about is it's really good for their

351

:

careers if they are able to solve these

tough problems that have high visibility.

352

:

are some other stuff for some

reason, marketing leaders just

353

:

don't understand why it's valuable.

354

:

A lot of the administration work,

a lot of the behind the scenes data

355

:

work, that's perfect opportunity

for an agency, you know what I mean?

356

:

Like the agency can do it.

357

:

They're typically a little bit

more technical than, um, talent.

358

:

Like they can source these

technical experts pretty quickly.

359

:

they're a nice fit to do some of things.

360

:

And then some of the like standard,

I would say, run of the mill

361

:

campaigns, we can look elsewhere

for other talent, like maybe

362

:

contractor talent, freelancer talent.

363

:

but I'm not saying like this is the

right way for everyone, but what

364

:

I'm saying is this is strategy.

365

:

It's

366

:

Justin Norris: Right,

367

:

Darrell Alfonso: like how

do we approach these things?

368

:

And that's, that's what strategy

and operations means to me.

369

:

Justin Norris: I love what

you're saying about the hierarchy

370

:

of strategy and tactics.

371

:

'cause I've always, chewed on this for

a while, cause I'm really big at having

372

:

clear definitions just in terms of how

I think like, well, one, one strategies,

373

:

the next person's tactics, depending on

which level that you're, working on it.

374

:

That makes perfect sense to me.

375

:

Now, what you've described, I'd almost

call it like an operational strategy,

376

:

like given a certain . Objective and

given a certain, set of decisions to

377

:

continue your definition of, strategy

is making choices, certain set of

378

:

choices have already been made.

379

:

We are going to run X campaigns, we

are going to do a user conference.

380

:

Now how should we best support that

in terms of the team structure,

381

:

the roles and responsibilities, the

technology that is downstream of those

382

:

decisions that have already been made.

383

:

does your role encompass ? some of those

upstream decisions as well, or is it

384

:

really marketing strategy and operations?

385

:

Meaning strategy in the ops context?

386

:

Darrell Alfonso: some of the larger,

let's say big Rock initiatives

387

:

don't happen at my level, right?

388

:

They'll happen at like the VP level.

389

:

Should

390

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

391

:

Darrell Alfonso: user conference?

392

:

You know, we spend X million of dollars

on this channel versus this channel?

393

:

Right.

394

:

I think that a lot of the work that

my team does and in partnership with

395

:

other groups, we inform and like we

help collaborate on those decisions.

396

:

think that making those possible,

like reaching the OKRs of our

397

:

business, I think that that's more

the strategy realm that my team plays.

398

:

I will say that, and this is common

at other organizations too is we

399

:

also have a planning function, right?

400

:

it's a planning and strategy

function that's actually separate

401

:

from marketing operations.

402

:

They kind of report up to

the C M O, a lot of them.

403

:

Uh, common, a common one

is like chief of staff,

404

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

405

:

Darrell Alfonso: of staff,

like we have a chief of staff

406

:

and then she also has a team.

407

:

This is also marketing operations,

just a different side of it and that

408

:

team's work stream is the one that

sets the path to create the strategy.

409

:

the format in which that

happens is a timeline.

410

:

It's like a really big project where

companies goals and overall is developed

411

:

and then there's a, cascade of Actions and

decisions that have to be made after that.

412

:

So after the company decides what their

OKRs are, for example, the marketing team

413

:

needs to determine what their strategic

plan is alongside of what those OKRs are.

414

:

After the OKRs and strategies

developed, then we need to have

415

:

the budgeting conversation and the

resourcing conversation of what

416

:

do we need to make that happen.

417

:

Following that comes the more

tactical things like the campaigns.

418

:

What campaigns do we need the

campaigns either in tandem with

419

:

marketing operations or like soon

after we come up with the operational

420

:

strategy because the operational

strategy needs to support the campaign

421

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

422

:

Darrell Alfonso: in all,

there's an entire work stream.

423

:

That's not the responsibility of

my team but it does fall in what I

424

:

do think is marketing operations.

425

:

It's like a different side, like

426

:

Justin Norris: let's dive into that

and like make it real for a second.

427

:

Company level strategy, you know,

we're gonna grow X amount through,

428

:

you know, getting new people onto

our platform and we're also gonna

429

:

try to increase, existing business by

X or am I like something like that?

430

:

Is that what we're thinking about

for those is company level OKRs?

431

:

And then in terms of how

marketing supports that?

432

:

is that where we start thinking about,

all right, well what are the . the

433

:

main channels that we're going to

focus on paid, organic, main programs?

434

:

Like how is that where that sort

of thinking starts cascading in?

435

:

Darrell Alfonso: I think you're right on.

436

:

So I have a couple thoughts on this.

437

:

one is for like a

straightforward way to do this.

438

:

actually a wonderful framework in

McKinnon's book, he wrote a book

439

:

called The Marketing Operations

Handbook, which I recommend to people.

440

:

And the framework is really demand

planning framework where you take a look

441

:

at the revenue of the company should be.

442

:

You know, the new sales

revenue, for example.

443

:

And then you find out

marketing's contribution.

444

:

What's marketing's contribution?

445

:

So then you have a number.

446

:

That number then needs to be made

up by, you know, you need a certain

447

:

amount of pipeline to make up that

number, a certain amount of leads

448

:

to make up that number, and then a

certain amount of programs or campaigns

449

:

that you run throughout the year.

450

:

So there's this very like

trickle down hierarchy effect

451

:

Justin Norris: Yep.

452

:

Darrell Alfonso: you can

do, um, with reverse math.

453

:

And that's, that's the

planning that I recommend.

454

:

I caveat that by saying We're in a

interesting era these days, with P L G and

455

:

especially with, companies like mine that

are more of like a marketplace business.

456

:

So with a marketplace business, you

have B two B and B two C then, really

457

:

interesting, I think for Indeed,

without sharing too much of like

458

:

what's going on, Not only do we have

B two B and B two C, but we also

459

:

have an enterprise and SS m b motion.

460

:

So all of those are very different

and they don't work the same.

461

:

Right?

462

:

'cause like if a small business

uses indeed, it's fairly simple.

463

:

You know what I mean?

464

:

You can, a job and put a

credit card in and you're good

465

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

466

:

Darrell Alfonso: that is a, almost

like a SS M B P L G type function.

467

:

Right.

468

:

There's not too much sales assist that you

need, even though there can be, we also

469

:

have an enterprise motion where you have,

large companies that are hiring thousands

470

:

of employees in a certain time period.

471

:

You know, like in a quarter

they'll hire a thousand people.

472

:

That's very different game.

473

:

Right.

474

:

And it requires though sort of

white glove, high touch service

475

:

that a sales led motion does.

476

:

so while I say that, I wish it could

be as simple as what I just mentioned

477

:

in terms of like the framework for,

for planning, in reality, especially

478

:

with today, it's very I will

say that it's a lot of fun too.

479

:

Like are problems that people

haven't, like, there's nothing

480

:

written about how to solve this.

481

:

So this is where the strategy comes in.

482

:

You know, how do we solve these problems

and how do we, how do we plan for it?

483

:

Justin Norris: It's funny

now that you mention it.

484

:

About 10 years ago, my first kind of real

startup job, a hiring app they layered

485

:

some software and some profiling tools

on top of the job posting piece, but they

486

:

partnered with companies like Indeed.

487

:

to get their postings out.

488

:

So know exactly what you're

talking about with that.

489

:

was primarily SS m b focused in the

beginning, although they started to

490

:

layer enterprise motion in, is your, is

supporting all of those things together?

491

:

And then there's the candidate marketing

side as well, which I, you didn't

492

:

mention, but maybe are you thinking

about all those things or are you

493

:

really focused just on enterprise play?

494

:

Darrell Alfonso: a good portion of my

team is really dedicated to the B two

495

:

B, both enterprise and small business.

496

:

I think marketing operations lends

itself to that type of marketing and

497

:

that to that type of, customer, B two C

in my opinion is a little bit different.

498

:

Like the planning is a

little bit different.

499

:

The measurement is different.

500

:

We do help in those areas.

501

:

we partner really closely

with, team that runs campaigns,

502

:

our, em job seeker, customers.

503

:

um, say type of work is very different.

504

:

So the, the large of my team is B two B.

505

:

Justin Norris: We've mentioned

your team a few times.

506

:

Can you tell us a bit

about how big is indeed?

507

:

How big is marketing, how big is marketing

ops, and then do you structure your roles?

508

:

Darrell Alfonso: Indeed's

an interesting one.

509

:

it's very different

510

:

Justin Norris: I.

511

:

Darrell Alfonso: my last organization.

512

:

like at a w s for example,

I was on the MarTech team.

513

:

my team was like the Marketo team

had a large team that really managed

514

:

Marketo as a product, but also managed

the way in which marketers use the

515

:

platform It's different, Indeed's

about, I dunno, 14 to 15,000 people.

516

:

And, the marketing

technology, responsibility.

517

:

Act actually falls under a different

team called Business Systems.

518

:

Justin Norris: right?

519

:

Darrell Alfonso: kind of like a, you

know, most places would call it probably

520

:

it, we call it business systems.

521

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

522

:

Darrell Alfonso: actually doesn't

manage the team focuses has

523

:

like three different, groups.

524

:

So have a campaign operations team,

which heavily focuses on email.

525

:

have a globalization team, I like to say

that the mission of that team is to expand

526

:

marketing efforts and scale marketing's

efforts to many of the different regions.

527

:

There's a lot that goes into that.

528

:

It's been a really fun journey

for me inheriting that team

529

:

'cause it's is a new mu for me.

530

:

But a lot of it is around localizing

and translating and adapting the

531

:

campaigns and content that we have for

You know, to be culturally relevant

532

:

and market relevant for, for customers

533

:

Justin Norris: Uh, and

that sits within ops.

534

:

It's, it's not a like global service

department for the entire company.

535

:

It's specifically a marketing

localization function that you're running.

536

:

That's interesting.

537

:

Darrell Alfonso: also have an

enablement, group enablement focuses

538

:

on MarTech rollouts, MarTech adoption.

539

:

campaign processes, optimization, and

then a little bit of reporting too.

540

:

So my team is about 13 people and,

support those different groups.

541

:

Justin Norris: And so from your point

of view, the business systems team is

542

:

actually the, the product managers of

your tools and you are their clients on

543

:

behalf of the marketers that you serve.

544

:

Is that the right way to think about it?

545

:

Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I think so.

546

:

Justin Norris: Like, like do you

interface, like if they need a new

547

:

feature, like, Hey, we need a new

548

:

in enrichment or scoring or something

in Marketo, let's, say, they go you

549

:

to business systems or do marketers

interface with business systems directly

550

:

Darrell Alfonso: It's a little bit blurry.

551

:

I would say that the way it works at my

company is that marketers are the primary

552

:

customers of that business systems group.

553

:

group is made up of product

managers, and analysts.

554

:

so let, let's say for example, there's a

technical or requirement, such as standing

555

:

up a tool, integrations, or maybe.

556

:

redoing our data strategy that

falls, squarely in their remit.

557

:

I think that what's interesting and

it's, it's something that I'm learning

558

:

about and and I've also been like,

curious about, whose responsibility is

559

:

it to get the most potential out of the

tools and have have the most adoption?

560

:

And make sure that the marketers

are doing things in the most

561

:

efficient and streamlined way.

562

:

If you have a team who's, overarching

objective is to make sure that the tools

563

:

are in a ready state for marketers,

Who does enablement fall under?

564

:

Who does, uh, empowerment fall under?

565

:

And I think right now, you

know, and I have relationship.

566

:

With leadership of that team

and we meet on a regular basis.

567

:

Right now, I, I would say that

it's, it's split between the two.

568

:

It's split between my team

569

:

Justin Norris: Interesting.

570

:

Darrell Alfonso: and we have great

experience too in MarTech their team

571

:

is the one that, has the engineers.

572

:

so that's, that's the dynamic

that, that we have it played.

573

:

I often think like fast forward, Five, 10

years, and I'm the one that gets to make

574

:

the . Hopefully I'm the one that gets to

make these large organizational calls.

575

:

I often myself like,

how would I set it up?

576

:

Justin Norris: I was just gonna ask that.

577

:

Darrell Alfonso: I would

set it up in this way,

578

:

Justin Norris: Yeah,

579

:

Darrell Alfonso: I will say that we've

established a dynamic that I think is

580

:

very collaborative and works for us.

581

:

Justin Norris: you took

it just where I was.

582

:

gonna go because like pros and

cons, you know, uh, business systems

583

:

ownership structure is when I've seen

increasingly in larger companies, You

584

:

can see why they would do it that way.

585

:

You have one team that owns all

your systems they can manage the

586

:

interrelationships between them.

587

:

They can be product managers

on behalf of the whole company.

588

:

So let's say those are the

arguments or some of them in favor.

589

:

The cons of course become, they

then become less responsive to.

590

:

Particular groups, do they become more

distant from those groups, less able to

591

:

interpret questions, marketing worries

that their needs may go to the back of the

592

:

queue because the team also has to service

Salesforce and sales tools and maybe

593

:

sales has more power in the organization.

594

:

So you've already said, you know, you

wouldn't necessarily set it up that way.

595

:

What do you think is the best

way to set it up if you were to

596

:

design, enterprise from scratch?

597

:

Darrell Alfonso: try to like remove

my own biases, which is like really

598

:

difficult, I think the strongest

biases for most of us is to bring to

599

:

a company what we're familiar with.

600

:

Whether or not it was the

right choice to begin with.

601

:

I recognize that my biases is

that the MarTech technology team

602

:

should report up into marketing.

603

:

'cause I've seen it before and that's

been where most of my experience is.

604

:

that there are some benefits to that.

605

:

Like I think the alignment

would be incredibly tight.

606

:

And I also think That type of

organization attracts technologists

607

:

that have affinity for marketing.

608

:

You know, that they really enjoy marketing

and whereas you separate it out, think you

609

:

may get maybe more general technologists

and engineers that are excellent from

610

:

a technical standpoint, but they may

not have an interest in the overarching

611

:

that marketing is trying to achieve.

612

:

They, they more of just want to

deliver technical excellence.

613

:

So that's probably how I would set it up.

614

:

I would, I would set it up as, MarTech

leading up into like a C M O or VP

615

:

of Digital or something like that.

616

:

However, I will say where this

gets tricky is that the larger your

617

:

organization is, more development

resources you typically need.

618

:

So you need teams of engineers

and product managers, marketers,

619

:

Are not the best I would say at

developing that sort of talent.

620

:

And you need that talent to be good.

621

:

And you need, you need them to develop

best in class solutions for you.

622

:

So that, I think, is the downside

of not having developers, engineers,

623

:

product managers, reporting up

into like a technical leader.

624

:

several layers of technical leadership,

that I think gets into the whole

625

:

like organization and management.

626

:

how do you manage a large

technical organization?

627

:

Are marketers the best people to

do that, like marketing leaders?

628

:

I don't know.

629

:

I don't think it's impossible,

but I, I recognize the trade-offs

630

:

still forming an opinion, I think

on what I would do and I think I

631

:

have time before I get there anyway.

632

:

Justin Norris: It's an

interesting problem.

633

:

have recorded episode

with Sanford Whiteman.

634

:

We talk about that problem of, know,

you have really smart developers who

635

:

do a really bad job with marketing use

cases because they are, indifferent

636

:

to needs of the marketing discipline

that they're serving in that case,

637

:

or, kind of looking down a little bit

on the technologies because they're

638

:

often client side, like having to do

JavaScript or, know, having to think

639

:

about, way that marketing tools interact.

640

:

sometimes with with real time web

activity that it's very different

641

:

than the way a lot of other tools are.

642

:

So it's not question of developer skill

or engineering skill, but there really

643

:

is a need for this marketing developer.

644

:

But you make a really good point

about, resources also need an

645

:

org structure to surround them.

646

:

They need peers, they need leadership.

647

:

Darrell Alfonso: Yes.

648

:

Justin Norris: That's not something that

they'll find often in a marketing team.

649

:

Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I mean, it's

the same question, like it's the same

650

:

downsides of like, where should the sales

development team sit in marketing or in

651

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

652

:

Darrell Alfonso: sales, right?

653

:

marketers, me included, think that we

should selfishly want them to report up

654

:

into, into marketing, better alignment.

655

:

I think it's a good move, but

Many sales development people,

656

:

they aspire to be executives.

657

:

They aspire to be of sales later on.

658

:

you know, you have to find a way

because now that they're not in

659

:

sales, you're kind of robbing them

a little bit of that nurturing and

660

:

the coaching that typically gets from

like, if you actually sit in a team.

661

:

always, there's always trade offs.

662

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

663

:

I love that one that you just

described, sales development one.

664

:

my own organization, we when I

joined, we had B D R teams, some

665

:

reporting into sales, some reporting

into marketing in different places.

666

:

Some of them reported into me for a

little while, were hiring a new leader.

667

:

In a particular region, and my team's

also responsible for bdr r ops, and

668

:

now they all do report into sales.

669

:

We have that consistent, which I

think is good for the reasons that

670

:

you mentioned where, you know, those,

those BDRs are not gonna grow up and

671

:

become marketers most of the time.

672

:

They're gonna grow up and become AEs

and account managers and, and they're

673

:

gonna move into the revenue org.

674

:

But I think the thing that makes

it work at least, is that we have.

675

:

Marketers that still view interfacing

with guiding the activities of the B d

676

:

R team is very much their responsibility

regardless of, you know, reporting

677

:

structure and that sort of thing.

678

:

we have those conversations and,

and everyone's very involved.

679

:

So I think there's ways of kind of

having your cake and eat it too,

680

:

irrespective of how the org is structured.

681

:

But it does require

intentionality in that area.

682

:

Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, I mean I

think that like, it does work.

683

:

You know what I mean?

684

:

I think the leaders those groups, they

need to care and they need to understand,

685

:

Justin Norris: Yep.

686

:

Darrell Alfonso: know, like sales

development and sales is a completely

687

:

different animal because there's a

lot of like personal motivation I

688

:

think at stake and like that needs

to be nurtured that isn't necessarily

689

:

present in more technical roles.

690

:

there's an interface there.

691

:

and I think that there's the same

thing technical talent where aspire

692

:

to solve tougher and tougher problems.

693

:

you have to balance that with

the need to drive impact.

694

:

you can't ignore it.

695

:

You can't ignore that.

696

:

These are the people's desires, strengths

and talents that need to be cultivated.

697

:

So if you have a leader that

can do that, I think it'll work.

698

:

oftentimes with many leaders,

we, myself included, we gravitate

699

:

toward we what we really like

700

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

701

:

Darrell Alfonso: we forget about the

stuff that is, isn't as important to us.

702

:

, Justin Norris: I want to ask you just

sort of switching topics completely,

703

:

just about building a personal

brand and marketing operations.

704

:

I see you as someone who's been.

705

:

You know, tremendously

successful with this.

706

:

you have upwards of 40,000

followers on LinkedIn.

707

:

You're, you know, very

present in the community.

708

:

You're doing these, these monthly

marketing huddles, wrote a book.

709

:

You teach a class, so it's like

that you're really involved here,

710

:

and just curious for your take

on how do you approach this?

711

:

Or you just, you love doing this stuff

and it's all happening organically.

712

:

Is it a, strategy that you have?

713

:

How important is it for people out

there that are kind of like, ah,

714

:

should I invest time in doing this?

715

:

What is your thought?

716

:

Darrell Alfonso: Yeah.

717

:

Okay.

718

:

Yeah, I'll try to like keep this concise,

'cause I have a lot to say on this topic,

719

:

but I will say that, know, I became

recognized for my work kind of early.

720

:

I became like a Marketo champion, a little

bit younger maybe than some of the others.

721

:

Like not young, young, but

like a little bit younger.

722

:

And so I got introduced to that world

of like a thought leader or someone

723

:

that people look up to early on.

724

:

And as I was like joining the, the group

of like Marketo champions at the time,

725

:

I just couldn't help but think like, I

want More than this, like more than just

726

:

being able to teach people what the best

practices of Marketo are, or like setting

727

:

up, you know, teaching people how to

clean their database and stuff like that.

728

:

Like, I wanted to forward industry, like

I wanted to forward our work and I felt

729

:

like one of the only ways to do that was,

was to kind of spread out, like, why does

730

:

it have to be specific to this platform?

731

:

There's so many people that are just

like me using a different system.

732

:

you know, so I, I think that was the

first thing of trying to, look at

733

:

marketing operations as an industry

rather than just like these individual

734

:

pockets of platform enthusiasts.

735

:

You know?

736

:

So I, so I stepped out and I think

I was like one of the first ones

737

:

to start doing that, to start like,

writing about the industry as a whole

738

:

and not like, hey, just like platform

specific stuff that you would need.

739

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

740

:

Darrell Alfonso: The, the next thing

that I will say, Consistency for

741

:

sure, like being, being able to like

consistently teach, is a big part of it.

742

:

I would say that some of my success in

personal branding because I caught on a

743

:

little bit early social phenomenon of

content that people like, and that is

744

:

not something that just comes naturally.

745

:

think the first thing that I did, I

remember when Instagram was first a

746

:

thing, And like, you know, I don't

really use Instagram today, but when

747

:

Instagram was first a thing, I, I started

to post some pictures and I started

748

:

to see just by like looking there was

a few things that I did that would

749

:

boost the engagement of the photos.

750

:

Number one, like it had to be

good and had it had to stand out.

751

:

But number two, the social

interactions helped a lot.

752

:

if I would interact with others,

would also interact with me.

753

:

So I caught that just like, I just like

discovered that even though people were

754

:

like, I didn't even mean to, and then

when I'm, when I moved on to LinkedIn, I

755

:

followed that same thing because I kind

of knew coming from another platform that,

756

:

a lot of the writing for your audience.

757

:

Like, you know, they're, coming across

your writing if you don't grab their

758

:

attention, they're just gonna ignore it.

759

:

And then secondly, this concept

of community is a really big one.

760

:

Like you have to engage with others.

761

:

that, that pulls people into.

762

:

I think that ever get advice that

personal branding is just something

763

:

that you, people don't think about

and it just like You get lucky and

764

:

you just keep doing it over time,

you'll do, you'll, you'll get it.

765

:

I really don't believe that.

766

:

I think that there is a lot actually

of science to it, and that if any of

767

:

your listeners are interested building

platforms and building followings,

768

:

you actually have to study it.

769

:

can't just show up every day.

770

:

Like I, I, I don't believe

that advice actually.

771

:

Justin Norris: Has it helped your career?

772

:

Obviously the writing a book, those

things are, are inherently helpful.

773

:

But in terms of the efforts that

you've put in, aside from the

774

:

personal gratification and all

that sort of intangible stuff, but

775

:

just from a career perspective,

do you think it's been important?

776

:

Darrell Alfonso: the interesting thing

when I moved to I think when I was at

777

:

a w s I was a little bit more private.

778

:

It's hard to be private when you're

posting, but like, didn't, I kind

779

:

of kept those things separate.

780

:

You know, my life at a w s and

then my life as, you know, like a

781

:

content creator on, on LinkedIn.

782

:

I came to Indeed, I brought it together.

783

:

I was not shy about letting people

know that this is what I do and I

784

:

got a lot of credibility for that.

785

:

up at to the highest levels, you know.

786

:

I'm so fortunate, I'll get a note from

my C M O, you know, every now and then

787

:

saying, Hey, I read your last post.

788

:

It really resonated with me and

789

:

Justin Norris: That's awesome.

790

:

Darrell Alfonso: I, I am just,

I'm just so grateful to, to be at

791

:

a place a, a culture like this.

792

:

also people that like accept

the type of work that I do

793

:

and, really think highly of it.

794

:

I 100% think it did.

795

:

I will say the other thing that

it does, it just exposes you to

796

:

really smart peers, if you do

that, it saves you a lot of time.

797

:

You know, I remember asking you

questions, asking Paul Wilson

798

:

questions, asking people like,

you know, like Jess cow questions.

799

:

And, they probably would still make

time for me If, you know, I didn't do

800

:

all this content creation stuff, but I

like to think that the one, one of the

801

:

reasons why I've developed relationships

like that, that have been very, very,

802

:

you know, instrumental I think in,

in my work and in the way that I

803

:

think, I can't help but think that my

personal brand has a lot to do with it.

804

:

Justin Norris: love what you said.

805

:

The two things that'll just tag on at

the end that I've observed as well are,

806

:

know, sometimes it can be hard to be

heard internally in certain discussions.

807

:

And yet if you go out and make a

post on that same thing and it gets

808

:

a lot of validation, can actually be

a really powerful way of, persuading

809

:

internal audiences as well, which

you, we don't often think about.

810

:

We think of like, we're gonna go

out there so I can get to something

811

:

else, but actually If you can't get

your voice in, in a meeting, you can

812

:

still get it out there on LinkedIn.

813

:

and the people will sort of vote

in a way help validate that idea.

814

:

And that brings it to the second thing

that I just really like is it is really

815

:

a, a marketplace of ideas in many ways.

816

:

And I know obviously some people

coming in, they, they have

817

:

advantages, they have big audiences.

818

:

But if you have something compelling

to say and . and you grab people's

819

:

attention, like you said, then,

um, then people kind of can tell

820

:

you what resonates with them.

821

:

And I just really liked that.

822

:

I liked the immediate reminded me of

when I was email marketing, you sent out

823

:

a campaign and uh, I was selling things

that people could buy with a credit card.

824

:

It's like you can just tell right

away whether it's working or not.

825

:

There's something about the

immediacy of that that I really like.

826

:

Darrell Alfonso: Absolutely.

827

:

I think my last thing I'll say is

like, I think about personal branding

828

:

and building a following differently

they, there's just a ton of overlap.

829

:

like you can build an, an amazing

personal brand without a following.

830

:

As long as people know you and know that

you do great work and they appreciate

831

:

the work that you do, you, you can do

that in one-on-one conversations and

832

:

many have built great careers from, from

that building a following, in my opinion,

833

:

is different there's a lot of perks.

834

:

And things like, there's a lot of external

perks that come from the following.

835

:

but they are different.

836

:

like I think that my personal brand or I

guess following would've been different

837

:

if I had just started a blog and then

just wrote these things in a vacuum.

838

:

Right, of just the thoughts that I

think that people should know and my

839

:

experiences, like, I think it, it would've

been useful to some people, but the

840

:

feedback that you get from writing things

and understanding what resonates, that's

841

:

what propels it in an upward spiral.

842

:

it also changes the way

you think about things too.

843

:

So I think that have to recognize that.

844

:

You know, that, that the

content that we create, we kind

845

:

of create with our audience.

846

:

Like it's, it's, it's all,

it's things put together.

847

:

it's different than I

think a personal brand.

848

:

Justin Norris: That's a

beautiful note to end on.

849

:

Darryl, this was super interesting.

850

:

We could probably continue for another

hour, but we'll have to chat again.

851

:

I really appreciate you.

852

:

. Making the time and just thinking through

these things with me you for that.

853

:

Darrell Alfonso: Yeah, of course.

854

:

Thanks for having me on, Justin.

855

:

Anytime.

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