This is an encore episode — a conversation that doesn't get had enough, and one worth returning to.

One of you needs to feel emotionally connected before your body opens up. The other needs physical closeness to feel emotionally connected at all. Neither of you is wrong. But the way this plays out — one reaching, one pulling back, both reading the other's response as rejection — can leave a relationship quietly starving for connection that neither person knows how to ask for.

In this conversation with EFT therapists Dennis and Kim Eames, Rachel explores the sexual cycle that runs parallel to the pursue-withdraw pattern — and how it creates a specific kind of loneliness that couples rarely name out loud. The emotional pursuer becomes the sexual withdrawer. The emotional withdrawer becomes the sexual pursuer. They're both reaching for the same thing. They keep missing each other anyway.

What makes this episode particularly clarifying is the reframe Dennis and Kim offer: these aren't personality traits or signs of incompatibility. They're relational strategies — attachment patterns in a different channel, asking the same question every pursue-withdraw cycle asks underneath the surface: do you want me? Do I matter to you? Am I enough? When couples understand the cycle underneath the sexual one, the reach toward each other changes.

Safety, it turns out, gets built on the back of tiny risks over time. Not grand gestures. Not perfectly timed conversations. Just the willingness to say what's actually happening — and to let that be enough.

Dennis and Kim are passionate about guiding couples through the Emotionally Focused Therapy process that transformed their own marriage. When the quick fixes and band-aids stopped holding things together, EFT helped them rebuild into a securely connected partnership—one with more stability, closeness, and passion than they imagined possible.

Both are Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists practicing in Federal Way, WA, and across the state via telehealth. Together, they also lead Hold Me Tight Seattle workshops for couples.

• Dennis is a Certified EFT Couple, Family, and Individual Therapist & Supervisor
• Learn more: Infinity Family Therapy | EFT Intensives | Hold Me Tight Seattle | Facebook

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Resources

• Free 7-Day Relationship Challenge: 7 short emails and daily challenges that you can do with your morning coffee. You'll never see your relationship the same way again.
• Work with Me - Individualized Guidance: High-touch, individualized support for deep relational pattern change.
• Meaningful Journey Counseling (WA residents only): Licensed therapy services for individuals and couples in Washington State.

Disclaimer

This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for mental health treatment, therapy, diagnosis, or medical advice. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. If you are experiencing significant distress, please seek support from a licensed mental health professional or medical provider.

Mentioned in this episode:

Why You Feel Rejected in Bed: Understanding Sexual and Emotional Cycles (Encore)

You're listening to Coupled With, the podcast that helps you take the guesswork out of feeling seen, heard, and valued in your relationship. If you've ever felt stuck in the same arguments, struggled to stay connected, or wondered how to better communicate with your partner, you're in the right place. I'm Doctor. Rachel Orlik, a couples therapist and coach, and together we're going to make relationships make sense. Let's dive in.

Welcome back to Coupled With. Today I got to sit down with two people who live and breathe the work they teach: Dennis and Kim Eames. They're not only EFT couples therapists, they're also a married couple who have done this work inside their own relationship. We talk a lot on this show about the pursue, withdraw, cycle, and love, but here's the twist. That same push pull shows up in

the bedroom too. One partner might crave emotional closeness before their body feels open for sex, while the other feels like sex is the doorway to emotional closeness. You can imagine how that might set up some fireworks, or more often, long stretches of silence and frustration. Dennis and Kim call this the crisscross pattern. And in our conversation they break down how it plays out, why it's not about

who cares more, and how couples can start translating their bids for connection whether through touch, words, or presence so they don't keep missing each other. This is a tender, candid, and really important conversation about intimacy, safety, and why desire is never just about sex. Welcome to the show, everybody here today. I am joined by Dennis and Kim Eames, and they are also EFT, emotionally focused

therapists. And in this practice, we talk a lot about the emotional cycle and the relational cycle, and how important that is when we're thinking about the pursuing partner or the anxious partner and the withdrawing or the avoidant partner. But today we're going to be talking about intimacy and sex. And is there a cycle that comes out when we're talking about intimacy with couples

that might be different than the relational cycle that we're used to talking about? Yeah. They're often kind of what we would think of or call a crisscross pattern, where one partner is reaching or pursuing for emotional connection, and the other partner is withdrawing from that. That's kind of foreign territory and they are withdrawing from that, but they still wanna be connected and close with their partner.

And they have a different channel that they're reaching for connection in, and that's through the physical intimacy channel. And so the emotional withdraw strategy is often kind of typically sexually pursuing and the emotionally pursuing partners often sexually withdrawing because it's a different channel than kind of what they're primarily kind of trying to reach for. But they're both trying to get the same thing connection, closeness, to know that they're

not alone. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I often talk about it in my practice with my clients as being this gridlock where one person really wants that emotional connection in order to let their body feel more alive and free and be open to their partner, but the other partner needs that physical connection in order to feel more emotionally connected and secure. They end up butting heads sometimes in that area.

Correct. Butting heads and also disconnecting. They're both trying so hard for connection. As has been discussed before with the emotional connection or the emotional cycle, when one person pursues, it feels terrible to the withdraw. When the withdraw withdraws, it feels terrible to the pursuer. That dynamic shows up in their sexual cycle. When one person is being pursued sexually, it feels too much.

All you care about is my body. All you want is you don't really care about me as a person and being connected to me. You just want sex. It can often feel like a lot of pressure on one side to make themselves physically available, or it can feel like rejection or abandonment on the other side that they have to be perfect in order to then, I don't

know what the right term would, but deserve the physical connection that they're longing for. Yeah, I had one client kind of put it like, I need to be emotionally safe enough and almost perfect at that so that she feels safe enough to have sexual connection with me. And that's like almost an impossible bar to reach to ever do anything that kind of leaves our partner feeling hurt or unsafe, especially when we

are trying so hard to get this substitute or kind of stand in for the closeness we're looking for. Like, well, if I can never do anything wrong, then you'll want me sexually. Or if I can give you enough pleasure in bed, then you'll want me sexually. You'll want to do it more. There ends up being a lot of quid pro quo kind of thinking around sex and intimacy, when really it just

comes down to how do I know that I'm desired, I'm wanted, you care about me, and you love me. Am I lovable? Yeah. Am I lovable? Do you appreciate me? Do you want to be with me? And when we're trying so hard to get one type of connection that then leaves our partner uncomfortable and they kind of put the brakes on that and try and

kind of come back with their own kind of connection, it just intensifies. Their kind of reach back for emotional connection can put a sexual pursuer back into, I'm trying harder. We need to have sex by this date or we're done. That just kind of creates that panic of the emotional pursuer of like, You're going to leave me if we don't have good enough sex by this date?

That's terrifying. Then, yeah, they emotionally pursue harder. Like, No, if you just do this or do that, then I'd be more interested in having sex. If you just did the dishes, so that I knew that I mattered to you and my time mattered to you, then I'd be more interested in sex. And they're accidentally sending the wrong message to each other, which is, You're not valuable

without the sex, or You can never get it right enough. Yes. And I love how you put that, Rachel, that it's an accident. We are never intending these terrible, hurtful messages that we send each other. Yet the impact on our partner is this I'm not good enough. I'm not desirable. I'm never going to get it right.

I mean, it's not it's never enough for you. And we we both send those signals to each other unintentionally. And then we get more polarized into our own kind of position and strategy. So where can that leave couples over time? More and more alone, more and more desperate, and more and more stuck. And I think as couples therapists and EFT therapists for a long time, we've done

a disservice to couples by only prioritizing the emotional connection and telling the sexual pursuer, Oh, your connection is, that's less mature, that's less grown up. We need to value and treat them both as equally important, and be working and talking about both cycles, both desires for connection. And as that cycle gets worse and worse, the risk of being vulnerable gets higher and higher, and so we get less

and less vulnerable. I think of one couple that the wife had had a really rough week. And problems at work, problems with health problems with her family, and she was just feeling really beat up and she wanted connection and comfort from her husband. Sex was the only way that she knew how to ask for that. The stereotype is that it's usually men, and I think it's probably more often men

than women that are the sexual pursuers. It can be both. That's what she described to me. Wanting that connection. I need connection with my husband because I feel so beat up after this week. I need that comfort with him. What she asked him was, Will you go down on me? He had no way of knowing that she wanted connection and comfort.

It was just like, Will you give me an orgasm? Is what he heard. And he's like, No, I can't do that. I need to know that you want me as a person, not just someone to kind of stand in and give you some pleasure. Make you feel better. So how do you balance that? Because there is this body impact for the person

being asked of physically? And if they push through and provide it, then they might be giving their body the signal that it's not safe and could actually increase this cycle over time by making it less connected sex and more obligatory sex. A couple of different ways that we engage sexually when one is pursuing and withdrawing talking about solace sex, which is an anxious pursuit kind of sex, and sealed off

sex, which is more of the withdrawing sexual position. So the experience that I kind of know best is my own, but I kind of hear this from a lot of other clients too, that I was in this sealed off sex position. I didn't really want to have sex unless I was feeling emotionally connected and wanted by Kim, but I would go along with it. But that kind of builds up

that kind of what you were just talking about, that resentment. And I've heard clients say, I'm starting to feel like I'm just kind of prostituting myself. I'm giving my body, hoping for emotional connection, that it'll lead to emotional connection and it doesn't. And eventually we can get to the place of a sexless marriage. We're like, no, I can't keep being sealed off and having sex anymore.

And the solace sex for me as the sexual pursuer, and I was coming from a very, very anxious place That for me, reaching toward Dennis sexually was not necessarily about us connecting. It was more about me feeling like I was loved. And so that I was I was reaching toward him for that connection, but it wasn't a connection for both of us. It was a way it was a means

of me feeling like I was okay. I think for us and a lot of other couples, recognizing the pattern and what's happening is a is a big part of the first step. Oh, I'm wanting to be close to you. I'm asking you to have sex with me, or I'm hinting and can I pursue sexually? Sometimes it's verbally like, Hey, you want to go upstairs?

Sometimes it's non verbally, like, I move from touching your shoulder to my hand moves down. That's my signal that I want closeness with you. But to just start to be more explicit of like, I wanna be close with you, that's why I'm doing this. We had a couple that would translate their kisses or their affections for a while. Kiss means I really wanna be close to you.

This kiss means I really appreciate what you did for me here. This touch means I really care about you and I want to know that you care about me too. I'm hoping that you'll respond to my touch with some touch of your own. Just let me know that you care about me. In essence, offering emotional connection at the same time as the physical connection to help

the other person link the two and feel like their needs are being met alongside the intimacy. And on the flip side of that, for the emotional pursuer, linking the message of, I want you. I'm reaching to you to help me with my discomfort. I'm not reaching to you and asking you to do this differently because you're failing. I'm reaching to you because I need you. I do want you.

You're my person. You're the one that I need. You're the one that can, that I trust to bring me comfort, contact, and care. It's so important that those messages become explicit so that we aren't getting stuck in this cycle again and again where you're getting pulled apart. We're owning what's happening in that moment and helping our partner's nervous system de escalate and calm down and be more present.

So even if it's at least and correct me if I'm wrong what I'm understanding is even if it's not sex that happens in that moment, if that person's body is like I can't do that right now, but it's I do want to be close to you. I do want you to know that you're wanted, and I can be here and I can hold you or I can hold your hand or I

can kiss you. And allowing them to know that they're not being rejected as a partner. It's just a specific act they're not open to in that moment. Oftentimes because we don't talk about it, we just kind of test the waters and see if we get the response that we're looking for that gives us a kind of a green light or a yellow light. Nope, yellow light, we're back off, we

don't talk about it. There's a lot of missed opportunities for both the physical and the emotional connection. And one isn't more important or valid than the other. They're both equally important. They're just different languages of love. Yeah. I like to I like to tell clients that it's important to not only have the emotional connection, but you wanna have the mental connection, the sexual connection, sometimes

the spiritual connection. And all of those different levels are areas that we can come together on. And when we when we're talking specifically about the sexual cycle or sexual connection, it is so important. You are making yourself physically vulnerable. That vulnerability takes strength to be vulnerable. For that vulnerability to come forth, we have to be able to connect with each other on all kinds of levels to make

that sexual connection feel safe. Feel safer. That's one thing I love about EFT, helping people connect in different ways. Helping people see how much the connection is important. Helping to take the ambiguity out of what I'm trying to communicate to you. Whether I'm communicating with my words, my emotions, my body, how am I communicating with you? I love what you said, Dennis, about this couple who's translating their kisses and

their caresses. And and you and I do that too. You know? It's like I'm just I come up and I might might give you a kiss on the ear and it's just like, hey. I just want you to know that I'm thinking about you and give you a little smooch. I think that really helps the two of us with our ongoing connection.

Yeah. As the and largely kind of emotional pursuing strategy person, having that translation is really important. They're like, Oh no, it's me that she wants, not just the physical. Yeah. What do you notice happens inside your body when you're having a moment like that versus the times that you had spoken about before where you got into this negative cycle where it was just about the physicality in your body?

I think for me, it's I'm a lot more relaxed that because Dennis and I have done our own EFT work with our own with our own relationship, and I am no longer in that anxious place of am I good enough? I'm no longer kind of trapped in my own fear. And so I can reach toward Dennis in a sexual way that's no longer fraught

with all of the anxiety. It's more of just a it's more playful. And it's more it can be spontaneous or responsive. But it's more I think playful is probably the best word for it. And it's more about connection for us rather than something for me. And so what it feels like is is is lighter. Yeah. And less less tense. Less kind of grasping. That's the word that comes to

my mind. Yeah. And for me, when I'm already feeling emotionally close with Kim, I want to have that physical connection more and more. As our relationship became solid and secure, and I rarely kind of doubt that anymore, that has turned me into a pretty frequent sexual pursuer after a long history of twenty ish years of being, rarely of feeling that closeness that kind of would lead me to sexually pursue.

Quick pause here, because what we're talking about in this episode is often part of a larger pattern. One partner starts trying harder to hold the relationship together, the other partner starts pulling back and both nervous systems end up feeling more and more overwhelmed. If that dynamic feels familiar, I made something that might help. It's a free ten minute training called Why Love Feels Like Too Much, where I

explain the cycle that escalates both partners and a short nervous system reset that can help you interrupt the spiral before it turns into another painful fight. You can find it at the link in the show notes. Yeah, there is so much research around how feeling secure in a relationship really does open up the avenue to become more playful and adventurous with sex.

And having that emotional basis to know, like, I am safe here. This person cares about me. They care about my experience really does allow a lot of those walls to come down and have that connection just be so much stronger. Stronger and safer. Yeah. I think of a particular incident with Dennis and I where he let me know, he was explicit, I'm interested in sharing love with you.

And I told him, well, my feet hurt. I've had a really long day. I'm willing to see if can get interested. We kissed and cuddled and caressed. I eventually became But I felt safe enough to let him know I'm not sure that I'm up for this. And he didn't take it as a rejection. He didn't feel like there was anything wrong with him for wanting to be physically

intimate. He was willing to just take it slow and see where it went. We had that freedom to not be so scared of, oh, will she be interested in me? Do I have to perform? I didn't feel like I had to perform. He could take a maybe and it was okay. It sounds like that's when it switches from being just about physical pleasure to being about the connection in the relationship,

where you can have the physical pleasure, but it really hits on a much deeper level than just that. Yeah. It makes me think of a couple that part of their cycle was he would initiate with a physical signal of moving hands from more neutral territory to a more erogenous territory. She would say, Do what you need to do. And he'd stop because that wasn't what he was looking for.

He was looking for sexual connection, intimacy. And she wasn't offering intimacy. She was offering, I'll just lay here and let you do what you want to do. And it's like, that isn't fulfilling in a relationship. She wants passion, but they've never been in a place where either of them could be vulnerable enough to create that passion, but they're moving in that direction.

Dennis, you spoke of now that the relationship with you and Kim is so much more secure that there's been this switch for you where you have become more of a pursuer. And I talk to my clients a lot about the spontaneous and more responsive styles of desire and arousal. And in what you described, Kim, there was this like, I might be more responsive today. I'll see how it goes.

But in a relationship where it seems like one person is strongly the more spontaneous one and the other person is strongly the more responsive one where the spontaneous partner might be initiating almost exclusively because it might not be on the other partner's radar on a day to day basis. What would you want those partners to know, or what could be something that they could keep in mind to maintain their connection when

that could potentially lead to disconnection? I think, as we've been talking, I keep kind of thinking of this kind of psychological term of complex equivalencies of like, if you do this, then it means this. If you have sex with me, it means that you love me. If you close the cupboard doors, then it means that you love me, you hear me and you love me. And we reach for that kind of

substitute of, If I get this, it means this. We reach for that substitute. Reaching for that substitute creates a kind of a backfire because it comes across differently to our partner. We get scared that they don't want us, and we back off, and we stop, or we press harder and we like then kind of up the pressure. Neither of those, like upping the pressure or just kind of giving up, kind

of work very well. But to be able to like be explicit about what's happening in the moment, be vulnerable and like, hey, this is really hard. It seems like you're not interested. I'm in the mood and it seems like you're not interested. Are you saying you want me to just kind of drop it and roll over and go to sleep? Or is it okay for me to keep kind

of caressing you or rubbing your shoulders or something? And if it doesn't lead anywhere else, I can be okay with that. I think that's something important too, is to recognize that responsive and spontaneous, neither of them is better than the other. Neither of them is bad. Like, just because I might be the more spontaneous one doesn't mean that my partner is not interested. And I think if each person can

remember that my partner is different than I am, my partner thinks differently than I do, And that's okay. Because the the one who's more the one who's more responsive and like you I I love how you said that, Rachel, that it's just not on their radar. That it's not like they don't want to share love with their partner. They just don't think about it as much. To have their partner reach out,

to have their partner initiate and be spontaneous like that actually helps. Because they do want them. It just doesn't occur to them as much. Have a client, where they are right now in both of their emotional and sexual cycles, she's just not as interested in being sexually intimate with him. And yet, the fact that he reaches out for her reminds her we're still we

are still connected. We are still together. This is Even though I can't really respond right now, I don't want him to stop. I don't want him to give up. And it gets really hard for him to keep trying to get a hug or a kiss or something and to have her pull away. Oh yeah, it's just like this constant state of rejection.

And it really helps him to occasionally hear, Yes, I don't want you to give up on this part of our relationship. It's like, it gives me hope that you haven't given up, that we can kinda get to this other place that both of us wanna be. I know how hard it is for you. I appreciate the sacrifice that you're making for our relationship and my comfort level right

now. And in these seasons, prioritizing that seeing each other and prioritizing emotional connection and being able to reach out in whatever way they can in that moment so that they don't feel like they're completely disconnecting. Yeah. And the more hurt we get, the more polarized we get. And so even small things that we can do to start to change that pattern, like, can we just sit on the couch and cuddle?

I would really like to be intimate with you, but being close to you really matters to me. And can we just do that? And when you feel safe to go to kind of cuddling without our clothes on, then let me know. But I want to have whatever physical connection I can have with you, and I'm willing to stay at this level until you let me know that you're feeling safer

to go later, instead of trying to get that little bit of connection and kind of like, Oh no, I'm being rejected and pulling away. And then kind of going quiet and physically moving away, which communicates to our partner like, Oh no, you don't want any sex is all that you wanted. Beginning to give more clear messages. Can be really giving those clear messages can be

really scary. We are listening to the fear, we get what the fear expects. Realizing in myself, okay, I'm afraid that my partner doesn't want me. I need to be able to check-in with my partner so that I can help relieve that fear. Instead of just acting on the fear and then getting what the fear expects because I'm acting in some weird way. Then if I can stop listening

to the fear as much and start speaking to my partner about, granted, things that are not easy to speak about. It's so incredibly amazing when we see clients take that step of courage to speak about something that's difficult. To speak about themselves in a way that they haven't before. I would love to have sex with you and if all we do right now

is hold hands and cuddle, I'm okay with that. Think that's part of it too, is being okay with not having the full meal deal. Being okay with steps leading to that. For each person to feel like, I can give this much and the other one being, that much is enough. That much will give me that connection. For people, especially for the sexual pursuer, to

remember that they're reaching for sex for the connection, if they can let themselves receive connection in different ways, in less than intercourse, if they can take in that lower level of connection, it's still going to feel good because it's connection. They are just so used to, oh it has to be sex. Well, it doesn't. When they are able to take that part of it in, that

smaller part of it in, it still feels good. It still feels good to them. And then it also sends the message to their partner of you are enough. Yes. Yes. You are who I want. We've talked a lot about, you know, we've talked about the sexual pursuer, sexual withdrawal, emotional pursuer, emotional withdrawal. One thing that's super, super important to remember is that these are strategies.

These are not like personality traits. These are not who you are. Right. These things that you do because of a need inside of you. And that's not a bad thing. We all need connection. We all need emotional connection. We all need physical connection. We all need to know that we're not alone, we're loved.

Absolutely. It's built into our nervous system. Yeah, we're wired for that. We're wired to be connected to each other. And so whatever strategy you use, it's not wrong. It's not bad. Nobody's broken. I think another thing that can help in that is to put ourselves partner's in position. They're reaching for connection in a different way. What is it like for them when they reach for intimate sexual connection and

they get rebuffed? What is that like for them? I know what it's like for me to reach for emotional connection I feel rejected or rebuffed. This is happening for my partner too. What does it mean in having some compassion for what it's like for them? I know exactly what you mean. I think it's three things that I'm hearing that are the really important things to

keep in mind. One, if you could take in even a little bit of that full connection, whether that's emotional or physical, then it still feels good. You're giving your partner the message that they matter, that they're important, that what you want is them. And it helps them feel more secure and attached. Also, sending the message of, This is good enough. Being able to verbalize that and

not just have it be something that we think is explicit. Because sometimes the withdrawal the sexual withdrawal needs that message in order to feel safe enough to come toward. It'll still be okay if I can't make it all the way to intercourse. And then the third thing is remembering this is how we respond to stress. And when we feel disconnected from our partner and what we're trying to

achieve ultimately is that connection. So thinking, I know what it feels like to be the sexual pursuer or the emotional pursuer and know what that feels like to have that rejection or to feel not important? And can I think of it on the other side? And what's a small move that I can make to really verbalize my care and love for that other person? Is there anything else before we move to

wrap up that feels really important for our listeners to hear today? I think for me, it's simply a small amount of courage can go a long way. If I can take just a tiny piece of courage and speak to my partner in a more explicit way, and I don't mean explicit as in sexually explicit. I mean explicit as in this is what's going on for me.

Here's what's happening for me and how I would like to connect with you. That does take courage. And so just a little bit of courage can go a long, long way. Yeah. Safety is built on the back of tiny risks over time. Yes. Yep. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today and helping us have this really important conversation that we don't talk about openly as much as

I think we should be because this is just a different type of connection. And like you said, it's not better and it's not worse than emotional connection, but the two need to be intertwined to feel like we're having that full and deeply connected relationship. And when you feel emotionally connected, it can make you feel a lot more playful and adventurous, and you might even become the pursuer in the sexual relationship.

I hope that you felt as seen by this conversation as I did. What I love about Dennis and Kim is that they remind us sexual cycles aren't about performance or perfection they're about connection. Whether you're the one reaching out emotionally or physically, underneath it all, you're both asking the same question: Do you want me? Do I matter to you? If today's episode stirred something up in you, take a

moment tonight to translate your own bid for connection. Whether that's a hand on your partner's shoulder, a kiss on the cheek, or just saying out loud, I just want to be close to you. Those tiny moves are what shift this cycle. If you want the guided version of this work, my private audio series is linked in the show notes. You can start anytime. That's it for today's episode of Coupled

With. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. If this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to hit subscribe so you never miss what's next. And if you found it helpful, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating and review. It really helps more than you know. And if you're curious about how we might work together or want more resources to

strengthen your relationship, head over to my website, www.drachaelorlich.com. You'll find free tools, podcast extras, and ways to go deeper. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next time.