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Liam Bannon (Part 1) on a career outside the box
Episode 21 • 10th April 2024 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
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Liam Bannon is a Professor Emeritus and founder and director of the Interaction Design Centre at the University of Limerick in Ireland.

Liam has been a hugely influential thinker writer and researcher since the 1980s, along with various collaborators, in shaping work around technology and design.   

Recorded in-person in 2017, he reflects on his interdisciplinary journey and contributions, covering areas such as AI, HCI, CSCW, human-centered design, and collaboration. Liam’s experiences exemplify the challenges and rewards of crafting a unique academic career largely outside the box, grounded in interdisciplinary collaboration and a commitment to improving human-technology interactions, while also highlighting the importance of personal fulfilment and being able to think broadly.

Related Links:

Liam at the Interaction Design Centre, Uni of Limerick

Some of the people & papers he mentions:

George Miller

Zenon Pylyshyn, (1973). What the mind's eye tells the mind's brain: A critique of mental imagery. Psychological Bulletin, 80(1), 1–24. 

H. Rudy Ramsey and Michael E Attwood (1979) Human Factors in Computer Systems: A Review of the Literature, Technical Report SAI-79-111DEN

James Jenkins, Uni of Minnesota

Don Norman, Human Centered Design, UCSD. See also  https://jnd.org

Kjeld Schmidt 

Lucy Suchman

Rob Kling Center for Social Informatics 

Susanne Bødker, Aarhus Uni; see also our 2023 podcast conversation

Mike Cooley, Engineer Lucas Aerospace

Terry Winograd and Fernando Flores, Understanding Computers and Cognition, A New Foundation for Design, 1987, Addison-Wesley.

Bannon, L. & Bødker, S. (1991) Beyond the Interface: Encountering Artifacts in Use. Book Chapter in J.M. Carroll (Ed.) (1991) Designing Interaction: Psychology at the Human-Computer Interface, pp.227-253. (New York: Cambridge University Press) (See also an earlier version)

Bud Mehan, UCSD  

Pelle Ehn, Morten Kyng and Participatory Design e.g., see this paper

Rank Xerox Cambridge EuroPARC e.g., see overview articles 'What is EuroPARC?' and 'Rank Xerox Cambridge EuroPARC'

Liam J. Bannon (2006) Forgetting as a feature, not a bug: the duality of memory and implications for ubiquitous computing, CoDesign, 2:1, 3-15

Liam J. Bannon (2012) Interactions

Schmidt, K., Bannon, L., Four characters in search of a context

Schmidt, K., Bannon, L. Taking CSCW seriously. Comput Supported Coop Work 1, 7–40 (1992). 

The Google Scholar listing of all of Liam’s publications



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Liam: The point is that there's also new

ideas and, and kind of ways of thinking

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about problems that really, if we don't

allow that, if we don't give people

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some space to think outside the box,

like we're going to be stuck in the box.

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it's and it's a very small, I

believe it's a very small box.

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Geri: That's the voice of Liam

Bannon my guest in this episode.

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And Liam was never one

to be stuck in the boxes.

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Liam is a professor emeritus and he

was the founder and director of the

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interaction design center at the

university of Limerick in Ireland.

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As you'll hear in, Liam's

telling of his own story.

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He was always looking for

the links and ideas outside

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of, and in between the boxes.

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He's been a hugely influential

thinker writer and researcher.

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Along with his various collaborators.

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In shaping work around

technology and design.

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Contributing, especially to the

areas of human computer interaction.

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HCI and computer supported cooperative

work CSCW and doing so drawing on his

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very broad disciplinary interests.

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One thing I think is particularly

interesting, given all that is happening

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now with AI artificial intelligence.

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are his reflections on being around the

first wave of AI in the:

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it's also really interesting the way

his career story provides a personalized

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account in a way of the story of the

development of the fields of HCI.

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And CSCW.

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More generally.

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I think his story is an example of the

opportunities and challenges that come

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from trying to shape your own path.

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And follow what you really

believe in and what interests you.

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Albeit recognizing that he was able to

do this in a different era of academia.

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Starting at around 37 minutes he also

steps back from some of the details

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of his career and reflects more

generally across some of these issues.

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I should say here that we

recorded this interview in:

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Yes.

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You heard that right.

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And this was at the ECSCW

conference in Sheffield.

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So a small heads up , because we

were in person there's some cross

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microphone capture and back channeling.

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So it may not be as clean as

if we recorded remotely, but

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still more than understandable.

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And I'll also just add that at this time.

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And in the ensuing period, Liam

has been dealing with some really

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significant and serious health issues.

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We're going to record a part two of

our conversation to continue some

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reflections on these experiences.

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As well as his more general

reflections and lessons learned that

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we can take away from his career.

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So I hope you enjoy this

conversation with Liam Bannon.

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I'm really delighted to be able

to speak with you today, Liam.

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So thanks for giving me the time.

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For people who don't know

you, just a little bit of

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context about your background.

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What, your first degree was

cognitive science, psychology?

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Liam: Well, it was science,

actually, it was a science.

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I had an interest in school in both.

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the arts and the sciences and

so it was a bit of a problem

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as to what direction to go in.

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remember this teacher saying, do science,

you might get a job at the end of it.

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So I did science, so it was maths,

physics, chemistry, biology.

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My interest was chemistry really,

but in terms of those subjects.

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But in the second year of my undergraduate

and that degree, they had a new program

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of maths, psychology, computer science.

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This is back in 1971.

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Geri: That's that's a bit

of a radical combination.

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Liam: Yeah, it was a bit strange

because psychology was actually in the

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arts building, in the arts faculty.

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And, uh, computer science had just been

introduced as an undergraduate subject

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the year before, 1970, so it was very new

as an undergraduate, so I didn't really

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know much about psychology or computing.

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I remember going out that

summer before the start.

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It just appealed to me as something

a bit different so there were about

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12 of us who took that option.

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and and of that 12, then we were

traipsed over to psychology lectures

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in the arts building every, every day.

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And, uh, I really enjoyed it because what

psychology, the undergraduate program in

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UCD in Dublin was a very general one that

meant you, introduced you to everything,

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all different areas, animal behavior,

perception, learning, memory, educational

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psychology, personality, statistics.

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Physiology, you know,

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Geri: Wow yeah

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Liam: it allowed, I just found it,

it was great because I knew in a

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sense I was really a wordsmith.

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My interests were more

English history and that.

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So this opened out that, it put me back

even though I was in a science program.

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Then we, the third year we did

computer science and psychology.

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At that stage didn't have an

honors degree in computing.

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So we just had a general degree

in computing and then the final

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year we just did psychology.

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So I ended up, and that, in that

last year especially, I became

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interested in relationships between

the two, computing and psychology.

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And there were two areas,

obviously, of interest.

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One was the modeling, thinking of

the computer as a model for the mind.

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And so a lot of psychologists

were thinking of inputs and the

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information processing model.

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And of course I was interested in that.

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Another area was, of course then the

idea of artificial intelligence, and

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I became interested in thinking of the

computer as a model for the mind, as

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something to help us understand the mind.

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I was interested basically in

cognition and thinking, the mind,

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language, they were my main interests.

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Um, I also found computing

interesting and, you know, some

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of the semantics of programming

languages and things like that.

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Some, some aspects of

computing I found interesting.

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The second area of interest, which was a

more practical one, was that I worked As

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both an instructor in computing, but also

on the help desk in the computing center.

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And I started to pay attention

to the concerns of people

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with using the technology.

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And this is in the days

of punch cards and that.

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But there was still this issue of like

people, errors that people people were

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making in compiling and running programs.

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And so I had that sort of human

factors interest in computing systems.

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So what that led to was a feeling

I wanted to move on, but I was, I

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wanted to be more in psychology, on

the human science side, than on the

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computing side I wanted to do both.

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So I, there was an opportunity to do a

Masters in computing in Trinity in Dublin.

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One year I kind of taught Masters,

they just started in computer science.

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And we had some funding for it.

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So I did that for a year and I did a small

project on looking at programming errors.

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So I collected data on people

running programs and what were the

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most frequent errors and things.

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It was a fairly basic, uh,

logging study basically.

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Um, and then I was thinking about

doing further work and so I was looking

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for positions or doctoral positions.

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outside of Ireland, so

mainly in North America.

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And I was thinking about, I wanted

to, to be sort of in AI, but not

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in, Like the straight computer

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Geri: Yeah, the technical

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Liam: So I was looking for people

who had psychology in computing.

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And at that time there were about

three, three or four groups.

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There were some of the Carnegie

Mellon people crossed, like

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Newell and Simon and that.

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There was Norman and Lindsay

and Rumelhart, kind of

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the people at San Diego.

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There was a couple of people in

Washington State, Hunt and some people.

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And then I I was reading at this stage

kind of AI articles and I was a member of

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SIGART and I used to get the newsletter

and I was quite young and trying to learn.

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We didn't have courses on AI now.

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Matter of fact, our psychology teacher

was totally against the idea of AI.

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And, uh, but I felt it was, I was kind

of a proponent of thinking of it as

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a new way of thinking about the mind.

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So.

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I, by chance came across an article.

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By somebody who wrote a review

of IJHCI 73, I I think it was.

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This was in 74 or so.

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And it was by this guy with a very

strange name called Zenon Pilishin.

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And, uh, who, and I was

curious, who is this guy?

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And he was at a place called the

University of Western Ontario.

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I said, where's that?

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And he said, it's in London,

Ontario, in Canada, near Toronto.

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And I looked up his background,

and he was an interesting mix.

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Mix, he was an engineer initially

who then did psychology So he

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had a computing background and

a, and a psychology background.

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He also had interest in

philosophy of science.

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But he was in the psychology

department two thirds and one

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third in computer science.

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Geri: So you recognized a kindred spirit.

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Liam: So I thought this might

be somebody interesting.

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And then I contacted him and he sent

me a couple of papers and I read them.

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And I, What the Mind's Eye

Tells the Mind's Brain, one

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of his very classic papers.

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And I thought this is

interesting, so I went there.

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Geri: So I'm going to put a link

on the web page to an article that,

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someone wrote after interviewing

you that actually talks through

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all of your career moves and that.

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One of the things that really what

strikes me when I think about you

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is, and it's reflected in what you

said at the very beginning about your

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interest, is how eclectic you are.

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And what I think you've done in terms of

contributing to the field is doing a lot

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of that bridging between different fields.

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And often being at the forefront of

some of the new bridges that emerge.

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Whether that's some of the early

cognitive science stuff or the

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participatory design stuff or, yeah.

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How how did you, how did you.

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Get to the sort of lead of these waves.

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Liam: Well, because in a sense, I

mean, around that time, cognitive

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psychology was reaching out in terms

of trying to understand the mind.

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And so it was the start of the whole,

the cognitive movement was 60s with

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Bruner and, um, Miller Galanter, pre

brain plans and structural behavior.

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So that had been on.

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nicer cognitive psychology.

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So this was the first movement in

terms of trying to understand more,

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thinking of the mechanisms of the mind.

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And so in that sense, one example of

mechanism we had was the computer.

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So it became interesting to think

about how could we, if we build, it

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wasn't the idea of building a robot

so much that wasn't of interest to me.

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It was the idea of having a mechanism

by which We might be able to explore

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the functional way in which something

could happen in terms of the mind.

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Um, so that was what was

of interest initially.

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And so in that sense, cognitive

science was emerging around this time.

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And actually my supervisor, Zenon, was

one of the major players in that whole

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emergence of cognitive science in the 80s.

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Uh, or in the 70s, late 70s, mid 70s.

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So I was kind of aware of his

circle of people and contacts.

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He was visiting at M.

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I.

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T.

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at the A.

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I.

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Lab.

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He was visiting with

people at Carnegie Mellon.

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We were on the ARPANET.

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We had a dial into the ARPANET

even in those early days.

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So I was kind of aware of, you know,

It was the first time for me like

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being in a research environment

where here was somebody who was

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intellectually in the vanguard,

kind of connected in this movement.

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So interdisciplinarity, mixing kind

of computing, psychology, and also to

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some extent like fostering neuroscience

is kind of thinking about mind.

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Um, So that was one phase, kind of the,

and linguistics also actually, language

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and language mechanisms was also in there.

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So that was cognitive science and then a

few years later we had, I could explain

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like HCI to me then was a emergence of

people and I've written a little bit

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about this in terms of my view of how

that emerged kind of partly with some

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people on the technical side becoming

curious why people weren't using the

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software and also on the psychology

side in terms of thinking of an applied

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psychology area of people using technology

and thinking about, um, this idea of,

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uh, the information processing model

that we could ascribe kind of both

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computers and humans in the same way and

describe them as processing information.

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And then after HCI, then you

had CSCW, and that really

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Geri: Which is Computer Supported

Cooperative Work, which is trying

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to bring attention to the social

and collaborative aspects of

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Liam: To me, though, the common element

was really about going back going back

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to even earlier, the Human Factors in

Computer Systems, which is the original

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title of HCI, of the HCI conference.

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Um, and there was some work back in

the 70s, and in fact there was an

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early Atwood and Ramsey, back in 78,

I think it was, had a bibliography

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of work in Human Factors in Computer

Systems, which I got hold of, um, in 78.

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I spent a year, 78, 79, at Honeywell, Uh,

in Minnesota as a human factors intern.

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But I wrote to them.

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They were looking for more

traditional performance.

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human factors people.

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But I wrote and said, well, they should

actually be interested in computing

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because more people were using

computers and computer based systems and

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cognitive science was an emerging area.

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And so, tongue in cheek a little, I

said they should hire somebody who had

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this mix of backgrounds in computing.

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Geri: And lo and behold,

you know, I'm your man.

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Liam: And so they took a, took a gamble.

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I was one of three people.

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The other two were, had more

traditional human engineering programs.

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But actually, it turned out,

quite interesting that year, um,

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in ways that I hadn't expected.

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Part of, also because I had a link

with the University of Minnesota, the

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Center for Research in Human Learning,

Jim Jenkins group, and there were some

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very interesting graduate students

there who I found very interesting.

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There were also people at Honeywell,

but what they discovered was in a way

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that the fact that I had some computing

background as well and my interest in

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that area was actually quite suited to

some of the projects they were doing.

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And, uh, also opened my eyes a

little bit to working in the military

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industrial complex because a lot

of the projects at Honeywell were,

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uh, on the defense system side.

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And that was something new to me given

I come from Ireland and Canada, where

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it wasn't very big or non existent.

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Well, not quite non existent.

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There are a few projects defense

projects in Canada, but not a lot of

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the communications and technology work

in Canada wasn't military related.

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So, is so what I'm saying is that to my

mind, the common element of all of this

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in going on to interaction design and

participatory design, the common element

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was really that I was interested in, not

just in the mechanisms in terms of the

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technology, but in terms of the fact that

how it could supposedly support people.

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So my interest always had been in

thinking of the technology as a medium

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through which, which allowed people to do

things, either in terms of being a tool

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or in terms of being a medium through

which they could connect with others.

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My interest wasn't in trying to extract

human expertise into the machine.

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but rather thinking of the

machine as a tool or artefact.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Liam: And that became more, it started

out as a rather naive understanding,

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kind of in a sense just a concern about

trying to support people, and also being

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concerned that I found a lot of people on

the technology side Just viewed people as

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stupid who had problems, you know, that

they were stupid users, you know, they

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didn't understand their, it's obvious,

you know, it was, and I found this is

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really like at a certain moral level.

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I felt this was objectionable.

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It cast thinking of most

people in the world as being.

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And also a bad design stance to be

taking because I think it's led to

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designing systems for idiots rather

than trying to think about designing

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for competent human practitioners.

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And in that sense also, when I went

to California as a post doc to Don

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Norman's group, I spent also a lot of

time, Interacting with a group there,

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Mike Cole and his group, the Laboratory

for Comparative Human Cognition.

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And they were, Interested in cultural

historical activity theory and

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Vygotsky traditions and a major

aspect of that was the idea of

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thinking of mediating artifacts.

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Vygotsky's notions of language as a

mediator in terms of communication.

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And the idea that mind is not

just something that is individual,

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that we move from the individual.

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The standard notion from the more

traditional psychology was we'd

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individual mind, then we might

talk about the group or the social

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mind, the mass or something larger.

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it was very much, the first thing

was the individual and the self,

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kind of an individual creation.

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Whereas in this other view,

when you start reading Vygotsky,

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kind of Vygotsky mind is social.

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And so the notion that we go from,

Inter to intra rather than from

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intra to inter, I found fascinating.

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So there was a theoretical framework

that I became interested in, in terms of

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looking at, in a sense, the ecosystem.

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It wasn't just the individual

using the technology, which is very

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much the focus of a lot of HCI.

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But even from those early days, I had

an interest in something larger than

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that individual human computer dyad.

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And I think that's reflected actually, I

mean, I, in the work I did at San Diego,

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not that it was not very, um, it was very

naive, it wasn't very well theoretically

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grounded, it wasn't experimentally well

founded, but in my own thinking, my time

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there, and to give credit to Don, although

at times he was unsure where I was going

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and what going I was doing, he actually

gave me the space and, and, you know,

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opened, allowed me to actually explore.

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And that time in San Diego was

very, very important in terms of my

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intellectual development, in terms of

trying to kind of understand more and

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framing how to talk about these things.

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And even though the output from my

time there is quite little, it can be

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seen in actually a tech report, parts

of which appeared in three chapters in

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the user centered system design book.

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But if you read those

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has been really pivotal, I'm not

sure about that, I don't think so,

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but it influenced a few people.

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But I don't think it comes across as

strongly in the three pieces because

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they're in separate parts of the book.

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All noise.

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A little piece called Issues in Design.

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And that's talking a little bit about

the ethics of design and about how we

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think about, you know, idiot proof design

how think about, you how we think about

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and the people we're designing for.

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Just a very small note, a few

pages, but the second piece was on

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the social, well it ended up being

called Helping Users Help Each Other.

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But that piece was really talking about

the social context of design, saying

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you know, why are we spending all this

effort on building help systems Computer

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automated Help systems, and yet we do

very few studies of how they're used.

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Yeah.

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And in act of fact,

they're not used a lot.

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And partly the reason is because

they're written from the perspective of

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the machine and they describe all the

features of the machine, but they're not

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written from a human practice perspective

as we would say today in terms of an

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understanding of how do we use what's

useful here in the specific context

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of our work and when we want to do.

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Something to make these systems

usable in our daily context.

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We talk to our neighbor or somebody.

339

:

And so, why?

340

:

Geri: yeah,

341

:

Liam: in that, I try to raise this issue

of how, how do we find out information?

342

:

Rather than going to these help systems,

we actually, very often, we ask others.

343

:

We ask people who have similar

practices and we learn from them.

344

:

And then, how come we never

talk about that in HCI?

345

:

How come we don't think,

is there some way?

346

:

And the next stage of that for

me was, is there some way through

347

:

the system we could have access to

others in terms of online resources?

348

:

Not to a piece of dead text,

but actually to live people.

349

:

So in a sense, the third chapter is

on computer mediated communication.

350

:

Not in the classic sense of just how

email comparing online and offline,

351

:

but I put out a query on the early

internet which was, An unused net,

352

:

which was asking about collaboration

tools, using the technology as a medium.

353

:

And the chapter is computers

as communication devices.

354

:

So, saying not to look at the

computer as a calculator or as a

355

:

substitute human, rather as a medium

through which we can communicate.

356

:

And it's kind of ironic in a sense,

because the whole interest in social

357

:

media, you could say, and exactly what

Facebook does, it's, it's a medium.

358

:

Geri: Exactly.

359

:

So much of what we use technology for now.

360

:

So, when you look back, because you

have had many sort of shifts and

361

:

moves and explorations throughout

your career as these ideas, you

362

:

know, evolve and new, new contacts

are made and you go to new places.

363

:

When you look back, what are the sorts

of things where you think you have

364

:

made a really strong contribution or

the things that you're proudest of?

365

:

Liam: Well, I don't know.

366

:

It's hard sometimes because in

a sense I'm, I'm a bit of a sham

367

:

in some sense, like in terms

of a standard research profile.

368

:

Because I think the contribution I

make is rather, a rather elusive one.

369

:

It's kind of a and elusive.

370

:

Allusive and allusive and alluding

to, and I think my, you see the

371

:

papers I write, most of them, they're

not, well I have a few pieces where

372

:

there's empirical work and that's also

sometimes done with people in my group.

373

:

But I think the contribution that I

make is often trying to point to topics

374

:

or issues and bringing in material

that I think should be relevant.

375

:

In some cases I don't have a strong

conceptual fame from first principles.

376

:

In some cases I work with people

because of course I have a specific

377

:

view on certain things, but I also am

influenced by, hugely by my collaborators.

378

:

And I've had a huge

number of collaborators.

379

:

I really like working with people.

380

:

And a lot of the people's, in some

of the pieces that are more well

381

:

known, of course, a lot of this strong

kind of conceptual work is often

382

:

done by my colleagues, I will say.

383

:

But what I do is help shape it and

frame it and, and relate it in a way.

384

:

And I think, so I play this role that.

385

:

I think if we all did this, there'd be

very little empirical research done of

386

:

the proper kind maybe, but I think there

is a space for trying to, trying to move

387

:

forward in terms of, not always trying

to be, quote, new, but it's trying to,

388

:

in actual fact, part of what I think My

contribution is in trying to say, what's

389

:

out there that we might learn from?

390

:

What other bodies of work may be

relevant that we seem to be ignoring?

391

:

And in a sense, although in some

cases, it might appear at first that

392

:

I'm all over the place, actually, I

think there is a core, and the core,

393

:

It's basically, in a sense, human

centered design, or a focus on people.

394

:

And it so happens, because I

did computing, I'm surrounded by

395

:

people working with technology and

artifacts and systems that supposedly

396

:

support people, but yet they don't.

397

:

So I was very happy with CSCW, Computer

Support for Collaborative Work, and

398

:

Kjeld and I, Kjeld Schmidt, you know,

One of my major collaborators for

399

:

many years, um, like what we were

interested in was that idea of support

400

:

for people and people's practices

401

:

Geri: Yeah.

402

:

Liam: not starting out with just

groupware or technology but to understand

403

:

how people do things and then how we

can maybe design better technology

404

:

that fits into those practices.

405

:

And in that sense, like it also led me

into an interest in with the sociology

406

:

and anthropology people like Lucy

Suchman's work originally and in showing

407

:

again how you know, understanding the

context of work, the local organization

408

:

of work, and then the ethnomethodology

people and the sociologists with their

409

:

concern about members practices and

the way in which work is something

410

:

that is achieved, not a given.

411

:

And so it gave a lens, a very detailed

account of how work gets done, which

412

:

I thought was extremely helpful for

people in design to think about and to

413

:

realize not to talk about abstractions.

414

:

Geri: Or to talk about the stupid user.

415

:

Exactly.

416

:

So you're a really good example of

taking advantage of having eclectic

417

:

interests and being broad intellectually.

418

:

There's some ways in which now

many of our measures almost sort

419

:

of presume or require us to be

deep and to be known for one thing.

420

:

But but you've crafted a career, probably

not intentionally, I'm assuming, in,

421

:

in being able to exploit the synergies

at, at these intersections and with

422

:

very diverse collaborators because

you have these broad interests.

423

:

Liam: I thought the way you

phrased the question, maybe, I

424

:

think it might, What bothers me?

425

:

Well, what bothers me?

426

:

People are always saying I'm concerned

about things, this, having concerns.

427

:

Um, yeah, it concerns me a little because

it makes it sound a bit as if eclectic.

428

:

So, you do lots of different things

and then maybe you can bring them in.

429

:

I think there's a sense in which, as

I said, my interest is in people, in,

430

:

you know, Not just moving out from

psychology, it's not just the individual

431

:

mind, because I I don't believe there

is so much in the individual mind.

432

:

And also, ironically, although I was

trained in cognitive psychology and

433

:

information processing psychology, I've

actually, you know, I became disillusioned

434

:

with that in the, actually quite early

on in the mid, late 70s even when I was

435

:

doing my thesis and I, I kind of became

very, antithetical to the AI movement

436

:

and became very critical of it because it

seemed to all the time posit as if though,

437

:

you know, that sort of the mind, the

computer was a good mechanism for a model

438

:

of what it is to be human of the mind, and

I don't think it is, it might have it's

439

:

a model, but it leaves out a whole lot

of things, like in that Early days, it's

440

:

like, we didn't talk about emotions, we

didn't, emotions were some epiphenomenon,

441

:

or, we didn't, we ignored it, and yet

emotions are so fundamental to what it is

442

:

to be human, yet, for many years it was

ignored, so, I mean, my interest moved

443

:

more in terms of, Understanding humans,

the human, humankind, in a sense, more

444

:

sociological, anthropological perspectives

on understanding society, the nature of

445

:

human society, and the evolution of, in

that sense, my interest in artifacts.

446

:

It's not just about, you know, Industrial

design, but it or buildings or whatever,

447

:

which I'm also interested in people living

in spaces because my interest is in human

448

:

activity and human activity is also,

449

:

Geri: all of these,

450

:

Liam: but it encompasses artifacts that

we make from the earliest tool, man as

451

:

a tool user, like we, we live in houses,

we have habitation, we domesticate

452

:

animals, we have, we live with others.

453

:

So in the sense that interest in

people is fundamental and because

454

:

I did computing the interest then

becomes the artifacts that we create

455

:

in these new kinds of artifacts since

the dawn of computing, which don't,

456

:

in many cases, disrupt our, our lives.

457

:

Can we do it better?

458

:

But the problem is always that

too much we focus on the artifact.

459

:

How can this app help us in our lives?

460

:

And what I've been trying to do because

from a work point of view, I've normally

461

:

ended up in computing departments

because that's where there are jobs.

462

:

But I've always, in a sense,

that informatics informatics

463

:

should also encompass the social.

464

:

Actually social informatics, I mean

Rob Kling and others use that term,

465

:

that but I don't even like the term

because to me informatics is social.

466

:

Is inherently foundationally social

because it's about people and artifacts.

467

:

And if you're going to design

artifacts, people are going to

468

:

work with them and therefore you

should know something about people.

469

:

It doesn't mean you train them as

psychologists or anthropologists or

470

:

ethnographers, but anybody studying

computing it should also encompass

471

:

Like, the context in which computing

developed, back to the days of, even

472

:

you go back to Babbage and calculating

machines, I mean, he also needed

473

:

locksmiths and, uh, designers and

blacksmiths to build those tools and

474

:

we very often ignore the skill sets

of these people in creating the things

475

:

and in using, in fashioning a product.

476

:

so human computer, I I don't

like the term human computer

477

:

interaction, by the way, but that's

478

:

Geri: Me either.

479

:

Liam: story.

480

:

I don't like the term user, I don't,

481

:

Geri: That reflects your, your,

your focus on the human person.

482

:

You're like very much

483

:

Liam: Yeah, the human

society really, yeah.

484

:

And that is the common thread.

485

:

So for me, The interest in CSCW, the

interest in designing interactive

486

:

systems is more the interest in the

design process on how we open up design,

487

:

on how we try to democratize design.

488

:

My interest in participative

design, when I first encountered

489

:

it in the, early 80s was through

some of the work in Scandinavia.

490

:

And again, I've been very influenced

by many people there and my link with

491

:

Aarhus, with Susanne Bødker others

have been very influential for me.

492

:

But my interest was.

493

:

I felt at the time in San Diego we

were doing user centered design,

494

:

focusing on the user in the sense of

psychologists understanding the user.

495

:

But we weren't really, Still at

the point of involvement in design.

496

:

Geri: Yeah.

497

:

Yeah

498

:

Liam: And that idea of actually

reading about people, really

499

:

involving working with people in

trade unions and the workers, kind

500

:

of an understanding their expertise.

501

:

So I loved this idea.

502

:

One of the papers somebody wrote

about, you know, not expert

503

:

systems, but system for experts.

504

:

You know, the idea of, and another

early influence of mine, that many

505

:

people may not have heard of, that

I've been influenced by as an Irish

506

:

engineer, who worked, at Lucas

and Lucas Aerospace, Mike Cooley.

507

:

And I heard Mike Cooley talk in the early

seventies and was very influenced by that.

508

:

And he had an interest in the work of Marx

and manual labor and tools and the notion

509

:

of skill and tool sets and technology.

510

:

Building on that, not, so I'm

not trying to make an antithesis,

511

:

Geri: Yeah.

512

:

Liam: I'm trying to rethink the

relationship between people, tools,

513

:

computers, in ways that are very

different to the thinking that I

514

:

found in a lot of computer science

and AI, which was very much kind of,

515

:

you know, the human as a meat machine,

of, like, as a machine, basically.

516

:

Geri: Mm-Hmm.

517

:

Liam: The other influence, I

guess, back in the late 70s, early

518

:

80s was Terry Winograd and his

work with Flores and that one.

519

:

The emerging drafts of

that book I was privy to.

520

:

And that helped me in the idea of

moving from, you know, to realize

521

:

that we needed something other than

the information processing model.

522

:

I talk about a bit with

that in the early 80s.

523

:

sorry, the late 80s with paper

with Susanne, Beyond the Interface,

524

:

Encountering Artifacts in Use, which

appeared in Jack Carroll's book.

525

:

But that talks a bit about that history.

526

:

But to me it's, so just to go back

when you kind of prompted about

527

:

eclecticism, I just wanted to, yes,

I do have wide interest history.

528

:

Geri: I guess I don't mean eclecticism

in a derogatory way, but, there's value

529

:

in, in having the interest, the skills,

the intellectual capacity to make

530

:

these links and draw these connections.

531

:

a um, there's a particular role that,

um, There's a, and there's a particular,

532

:

I don't know, move intellectually as a

community that we get from those sorts of

533

:

discussions that we don't get just from

those of us who might stay within a little

534

:

bubble or a silo or very narrow area.

535

:

Liam: Well, I think there's a space, and

maybe it, what I would say, because I

536

:

sometimes feel like Forrest Gump because

I, I feel like I appeared in places.

537

:

I I happen be fortunate appeared,

by chance in a way, a lot of

538

:

interesting points of inflection there.

539

:

Geri: Which this nice, this article

sort of draws out really really nicely.

540

:

Liam: Yeah, because I got, for

instance, being with Don Normans

541

:

and Steve Draper, the user centered

human computer interaction project.

542

:

Human Machine Interaction Project

at UC San Diego in the early 80s.

543

:

That was one of the early,

very early HCI projects.

544

:

And

545

:

Geri: Yeah.

546

:

Liam: I'd, again, they found me

interesting because I'd done this

547

:

psychology and computing, human

factors, I'd been at Honeywell,

548

:

I had this human factors and

computer systems sort of thing.

549

:

And so there weren't many people

with, there weren't undergraduate

550

:

programs and sort of stuff.

551

:

So that was interesting.

552

:

I mean, I met a A lot of interesting

people there and, as I said, I also

553

:

have links to other people at San

Diego outside of the Cognitive Science

554

:

group who also were influential to me.

555

:

People in Sociology, I took

a course in Ethnomethodology

556

:

from Bud Mehan at that time.

557

:

And then by chance I met

Lucy Suchman at that time.

558

:

I had connections with people at

Xerox PARC, and was influenced

559

:

by some people there, and that

got me thinking about things.

560

:

And then I was back in Dublin working

on a conference where I had an influence

561

:

of a sociologist friend of mine.

562

:

Uh, and she was much interested in

the larger, kind of more, Socialist

563

:

understanding of science and technology,

and it opened my mind, it moved me

564

:

out of this narrow refrain that I had

been having, but it opened me out to a

565

:

larger literature on the sociology of

science and on, um, kind of theories

566

:

of, of human labor and practice.

567

:

And then I had the PD,

Participative Design Influence.

568

:

I met some people, Morten Kyng, and

Pelle Ehn, and Susanne Bødker, and they,

569

:

And then they kindly invited me to come

with them because they were interested

570

:

in making a link with the San Diego

HCI, this this emerging HCI community.

571

:

So I went there, and then while they were

there, they had this link with the new,

572

:

Rank Xerox EuroPARC group that was set

up in Cambridge in England and so I went

573

:

there and then I made contact with some

of the sociologists there, Christian Heath

574

:

and David Randall and Richard Harper and

other people who were, uh, connected.

575

:

Geri: So all of this, you've just

talked about lots of travel and

576

:

living in lots of different places.

577

:

What's been, can you reflect on that

just as a, I don't know, from a lived

578

:

experience perspective in terms of putting

down roots or not, or what was the costs

579

:

of, of needing or doing all those moves or

the advantages of doing all those moves?

580

:

Liam: A A couple of big ones.

581

:

Let's see, the first

move outside of Ireland.

582

:

I mean Ireland in the, in the late 60s,

early 70s was still, uh, very closed in

583

:

certain ways and I just felt it's still

very, in certain ways, I felt limiting and

584

:

limited and I wanted to explore elsewhere.

585

:

It's not, you know, I had this idea of

if I stayed in Ireland, so at that time a

586

:

lot of people did, they did their training

one country and got and got positions.

587

:

Geri: A lot of people do, yeah.

588

:

Liam: but I was curious, I wanted to

learn, I wanted to, Visit other countries.

589

:

I, I hadn't visited Ireland.

590

:

Wasn't in the EU at this stage, you

know, it was, so we were traveling

591

:

to the continent was a big thing.

592

:

I didn't have much travel

at all, so I wanted to go to

593

:

an English speaking country.

594

:

Um, well, because I didn't think

it'd be easy to, it wasn't easy to

595

:

go to Europe at that time or work in

France or Italy without the language.

596

:

So

597

:

I had to definitely felt, okay, I'll go

away for the, and then when I got there.

598

:

There were two types of people

I met who left from Ireland.

599

:

One group were people who hated Ireland,

like they'd gotten fed up and really

600

:

said, I'm never going back, I want to go

wherever, US, Australia, wherever, away.

601

:

And there were other people who

were very definitely going away for

602

:

some training, but they definitely

were coming back, you know.

603

:

I didn't fit in either category,

I was just, wasn't sure, I

604

:

didn't have a fixed view.

605

:

So I went and then I got the option to

go to the States for a year, I did that

606

:

in Minnesota, then I got the I came back

and did a little bit of consulting in

607

:

Ireland, just briefly, in between things.

608

:

Then I got the chance for the post

doc in California, so I moved there.

609

:

Geri: So you never had this career

plan from the sounds of it, it's been

610

:

really in the moment and responding

to opportunities or taking advantage

611

:

of opportunities as they rose.

612

:

Liam: Yeah, yeah, that's um, Yeah, I

didn't actually, you know, at the end

613

:

of my PhD, I was, it ended up, thesis

was still connected with this earlier

614

:

sort of issue around representations

cognitivist models and that.

615

:

I didn't feel happy doing that.

616

:

continuing with that sort of stuff.

617

:

So I, in a sense, had a bit of

a dilemma about what to do next.

618

:

So I was, in a sense, fortunate because

of this HCI interest that, and the

619

:

connections that my supervisor still had.

620

:

So I had sort of entry points into some

good places, and then I got taken up.

621

:

I had the option, actually, of going to

work in an office automation consulting

622

:

firm in Toronto or move to San Diego.

623

:

Geri: Somehow I can't see

you in an office automation.

624

:

Liam: It's an interesting group.

625

:

It was the former Bell Northern

lab that Don Tapscott set up.

626

:

But anyway, so I moved to California

and then I did something else.

627

:

I actually stopped and

went traveling in Asia.

628

:

So one of the funny little anecdotes is

if you look at the user centered, the

629

:

system design book, and you look at the

front, at the list of contributors, you

630

:

have all these people, you know, MIT

Media Lab, uh, Xerox PARC, University

631

:

of California, San Diego, you know.

632

:

And then there's one address that's not a

university address, and it's 16 Fortfield

633

:

Avenue, Ternier, Dublin 6, Ireland.

634

:

That's my parent address, it's my home.

635

:

Because at that stage, when the book came

out in book 86, I was traveling in Asia,

636

:

Geri: You're a peripatetic academic.

637

:

Liam: I intended to spend a couple

of months, I thought, but I ended up

638

:

spending almost two years on the road.

639

:

outside of academia.

640

:

So my CV has this one

line which says on leave.

641

:

Geri: So did that impact, well it

doesn't sound like it impacted, you know.

642

:

Liam: It was difficult I mean

actually a lot of my friends

643

:

said you can't you can't stop.

644

:

Geri: I know, there's that

sense that you can't stop.

645

:

Liam: was difficult to be honest arriving

I arrived back in I moved to Aarhus in

646

:

January in 2000 sorry 19 88, and I've been

basically on the road from July of 85.

647

:

Geri: Wow.

648

:

Liam: So, and I came back into a

research group into living in a small

649

:

apartment and into another country

where, yes, my work colleagues, we spoke

650

:

English, but it was another country.

651

:

They don't, they actually

speak Danish, I guess.

652

:

Um, That was, it took a while, yeah.

653

:

It was, was, was a bit

a at a personal level.

654

:

It was, uh, it was, uh, ended up having

You know, some interesting good times, you

655

:

know, but it was, yeah, it was not easy.

656

:

I was, but I've always been

a bit of a loner, I guess.

657

:

So I, I'm never really certain about,

as other people who know me as I'm

658

:

not so good at making decisions.

659

:

At the same time, I actually

made some of these rather big

660

:

Geri: Yeah, big, yeah.

661

:

Liam: where I fell into them.

662

:

Geri: I mean, one of them, you

stopped working formally, would

663

:

you say retired a few years ago, and

you've also had an interesting last

664

:

couple of years, since then as well.

665

:

Liam: well, okay, I skip over after,

or quickly, I was a couple of years

666

:

in Aarhus, but I wasn't sure if that

was a computer science department, and

667

:

again, I still have this feeling that I

wasn't quite sure if that was the home

668

:

I should have, because I felt in terms

of the profile of what people should

669

:

be, even though there was space there

for the systems development group, it

670

:

still was a bit of an issue for me.

671

:

So

672

:

Geri: So what people should be in

terms of what a good academic, a CV

673

:

looks like, is that what you mean?

674

:

Liam: in the context of computer science,

being a member, being a senior faculty

675

:

member in computer science, and what

kinds of courses you should be teaching.

676

:

My interest over the years has even

moved further away from, in a sense,

677

:

the details of the technology per se,

and more into kind of understanding

678

:

the practices and the, so I guess,

and the . sociologist, sociological,

679

:

anthropological kind of interest.

680

:

So, I'm, it just felt, yeah, I, in a

sense as I said, I, I, I felt at one

681

:

stage I would like to try to create a

new sort of discipline that some sort

682

:

of media and informatics or social

informatics, although the way in which

683

:

some of that media work is gone, I

would question a little bit, I think

684

:

it's become, or some of it I don't

find, so it's become too text based

685

:

and too removed from actual practice.

686

:

So it's really, where are the

home, where was your home, you

687

:

know, one's intellectual home.

688

:

Because it's interesting, like if

I look at certain committees now,

689

:

and there's an arts and humanities

group, there's a social science

690

:

group, there's a engineering [And

you can relate to all of them]

691

:

I can relate to all of and them,

And in actual fact, some of the

692

:

things I do and some of the people I

know or even have worked with would

693

:

be in each of those categories.

694

:

But if I go up for review by any one

of those, they they look at me and say,

695

:

you're not a psychologist, you're not

publishing in psychology, you're not

696

:

a sociologist, you're not a computer

scientist, you're not a media theorist.

697

:

And so in that sense, there's a

698

:

potential price in that . And I think

it happens with new interdisciplinary

699

:

fields, so like, we've had that discussion

a bit more recently about CSCW, that

700

:

certain faculty people feel that it's,

in their, younger people, that it's a

701

:

problem because of, like, in terms of

if they say they do CSCW, it doesn't

702

:

necessarily help in their promotions

committee or whatever, and I understand

703

:

that, that, that problem, that on the

one hand, Some of these areas are where

704

:

interesting things are happening, but

it really is maybe a bleeding edge.

705

:

That it's leading edge in the

sense of it's bringing together new

706

:

areas and there is sometimes a real

buzz and some real energy in the

707

:

confluence of these different areas.

708

:

But there also is a price to pay

709

:

Geri: Yeah.

710

:

Liam: It can be difficult to get

acceptance or there may be new journals

711

:

appearing which you can get into but

then those don't get ranked highly

712

:

and so your, uh, your publication

channels are reduced and so yeah, it's

713

:

Geri: So what would you say to a

younger academic now who's dealing

714

:

with some of those questions?

715

:

Liam: Well at the end of the road at

the end of the road, like, you know, if

716

:

you look back on, on your life, I think

it's maybe hard to consider this when

717

:

you're in your late 20s or early 30s

and doing your post doc or trying to get

718

:

your first position and get tenure and,

I mean, the pressures are, I do believe

719

:

that the pressures on young academics

are ferocious these days, much worse than

720

:

it used to be, and there used to be more

space for people to do their own thing.

721

:

There were, in different countries,

people had different, used to be

722

:

in some of the northern European

countries, there was more scope

723

:

for people to carve their own path.

724

:

But I mean, there's this relentless

pressure worldwide, also in terms of a

725

:

homogenization of programs, a reduction

in what counts as good science, good work.

726

:

Um, and I think this is really flawed

and problematic and that it tends to end

727

:

up coming to a least common denominator.

728

:

Of course there was some

shoddy work done at the edges.

729

:

I'm not denying that.

730

:

But the point is that there's also new

ideas and, and kind of ways of thinking

731

:

about problems that really, if we don't

allow that, if we don't give people

732

:

some space to think outside the box,

like we're going to be stuck in the box.

733

:

it's and it's a very small, I

believe it's a very small box.

734

:

So I, in terms of advice to young people,

I think it's very difficult and I, I don't

735

:

want to belittle the problem that's there.

736

:

And I haven't really, to be honest, I

haven't given enough thought to this.

737

:

I mean, I, what I've tried to do when

I had some control or influence myself

738

:

and I had some support or resources was

to create a space and I used to say,

739

:

this is probably a rather weak um, line,

but I wanted to try and create a space

740

:

where we could have interesting people

and give them some freedom to do things.

741

:

Now, some of that turned

out not to be very good.

742

:

Some of it turned out not to work.

743

:

Some of it turned out to

be really interesting.

744

:

And I think, I hope, that some of

the people who, when I did have the

745

:

lab in Limerick, the Interaction

Design Center, and with some of my

746

:

colleagues there, we did create a

space where I think we had, we had fun.

747

:

We, not just that it wasn't a sense

of being, um, selfish, make ourselves

748

:

but we tried to make a difference.

749

:

We tried to do something.

750

:

We tried to create linkages.

751

:

We brought in people.

752

:

I had people coming from

communication and media studies.

753

:

I had, um, One of my former

people, like my crew here.

754

:

We're speaking at the ECSCW conference.

755

:

There's now Professor Luigina Cio;lfi.

756

:

She came in from communication

and media studies from Siena.

757

:

I mean, we had people

from different countries.

758

:

We had, we had an architect, Parag,

who came from India, somebody

759

:

who was a qualified architect.

760

:

We had people from software engineering.

761

:

We had people from art and design school.

762

:

We started a new master's in

interactive media and many of the

763

:

students came in from the School

of Art and Design and that was

764

:

really influential and interesting

to have those people in our group.

765

:

So, we created an interesting space.

766

:

But, in a sense, because I wasn't,

and this is, I guess, my fault as

767

:

the leader, I wasn't focused enough

or determined enough, it, it was,

768

:

We probably didn't, within the

organization, we didn't push enough

769

:

on the policy or, or politics front.

770

:

We created a space and as long as I

brought in money, we could keep that space

771

:

because we were basically self sufficient.

772

:

We, most of the people in the

group are, we, we were paying

773

:

on grants soft money Yeah.

774

:

We didn't have many faculty positions.

775

:

And once that tied up near the end,

when I started having some health

776

:

issues and I became on that, I was

the only senior faculty member.

777

:

We'd wanted to other junior faculty,

but it, it was difficult wasn't seen

778

:

as strategic within the structure.

779

:

So it just shrank

780

:

Geri: it just Yeah, so the politics

is important, but it would be

781

:

exhausting as well, and it's always

decisions and trade offs, isn't

782

:

it, where you devote your energy?

783

:

Liam: It is.

784

:

Yeah.

785

:

And I, well, I think one of the

things is that you've got to, it's

786

:

really important to try and have

collaborators, whether they're in

787

:

the same faculty or not, or although

788

:

it can be difficult within the university

system, you may have good collaborators

789

:

in different faculties, but the problem

is they are, ultimately subservient

790

:

to their head of department or their

faculty and it can be problematic.

791

:

So, although there's a lot of lip

talk about interdisciplinarity and

792

:

creating new interdisciplinary research

institutes, you really need to have

793

:

a core group and the problem is that

we didn't, we never got critical

794

:

mass in terms of interdisciplinarity.

795

:

You know, regular faculty in that

group to make it sustainable.

796

:

So there are real issues.

797

:

But when you're struggling to actually

just do something here and on year,

798

:

it's also difficult to have that longer

term plan or to spend the time in the

799

:

politics side of it to try to work out.

800

:

But I,

801

:

Geri: You're making me think that in an

ideal world, so like what, what, what I

802

:

like that you did was just recognizing

that you didn't fit any neat silos,

803

:

but created your own and brought

people together and built something.

804

:

Liam: Mm-Hmm,

805

:

Geri: But it's also recognizing the

mix of skills you need to, to do that

806

:

sustainable long term perspective of it.

807

:

And like, I, I know I'm

not very good at politics.

808

:

So, you know, if I want to do something

about, I would need to think about that.

809

:

Bringing someone in who would, who's

going to be good at that politics

810

:

and external facing things and

811

:

Liam: Yeah, exactly.

812

:

I mean, I was just talking to another

senior person about this recently,

813

:

just at this conference, and I actually

was saying to this person that maybe

814

:

they should think about, yeah, hiring

somebody on the PR communications or

815

:

this side of it, you know, or to have a

chief operating officer or somebody to.

816

:

The problem, of course, is how you justify

that on soft money in your own project.

817

:

it can be difficult to actually

get full salary for somebody.

818

:

Geri: But recognizing that we

now, to operate in these sorts

819

:

of environments, and to do the

interesting research at these cross

820

:

disciplinary edges, we need more than

just good academic research skills.

821

:

Liam: Sure, sure.

822

:

I think that, yeah, I mean, To be honest,

I mean, I don't, I never really felt I

823

:

wanted to be a director, manager sort of

person and near the end, like with several

824

:

projects and I couldn't myself be involved

in all the projects and it became like you

825

:

felt a loss of, and that's actually what's

made me feel it's time to, I need to step

826

:

out of this because we were still doing

things and we had projects, but I was

827

:

becoming more and more removed and some of

the personal interests I had were not the

828

:

things that were being funded So we had to

go after funding to support the people But

829

:

they were in some cases a bit more removed

from what I found really interesting

830

:

And so I it started a realization

that Here I was working on a couple of

831

:

things, which I was doing on my own, in

my own time, that I found motivating.

832

:

One of those was about forgetting

and remembering and forgetting.

833

:

It was a topic that I was quite

fascinated by, but I didn't have

834

:

the time and the space to actually

package it as a research proposal.

835

:

Geri: And that was the thing

that was really exciting and fun.

836

:

Liam: At time there were these other

projects which I needed to be more

837

:

hands on working with, and I wasn't.

838

:

I was kind of missing from my group during

that, and I realized, no, this is not,

839

:

Geri: it's not where your energy was.

840

:

Liam: Yeah, it's, and also I had some,

at that time I had some health issues

841

:

were just taking my energy away, so,

because I lived a lot of my life, I've

842

:

been, yeah, relationships, and I, I

actually probably, sacrificed too much.

843

:

I kind of got wrapped up

in this academic world.

844

:

In other words, of course, I

met a lot of really good people.

845

:

And that there were people who are not

just my academic colleagues, but also

846

:

were social friends and collaborators

over several years around Europe that I

847

:

still value highly, but it's not, they're

not actually there necessarily when you

848

:

go back to where is home and suddenly

what is home and That became a question.

849

:

I was, you can, there's a dilemma

sometimes, you move so often.

850

:

I talk about that sometimes

with people who've moved.

851

:

I went back to Ireland, yes, but I never,

in some ways a part of me has never really

852

:

fully settled back there And also I'm not

a really part of the establishment there.

853

:

Geri: In the academic the academic

sense or in the local community sense?

854

:

Liam: in the academic sense or in the

local community because I, I don't.

855

:

While I have had partnerships, I haven't

really settled, and I don't have children,

856

:

I don't have, in terms of embedding

yourself in the local environment, so.

857

:

so I've, and I've been away a lot, so,

as time goes on, you suddenly realize

858

:

that we are still, although we talk

about nomadic life, I mean, there's an

859

:

element also in which we're still, we

still need place, we need groundedness.

860

:

and it can be difficult.

861

:

It can be difficult and balancing

these things as you go through

862

:

your career can be quite difficult.

863

:

Geri: I'm sort of connecting that

to what your, what your theme of

864

:

your own research is, which is about

being human, you know, at the core.

865

:

We are people

866

:

Liam: I mean, At the core.

867

:

Part of it for me, in terms of

moving places, was to learn.

868

:

You know, like I'm, as I said, it's not,

that I have this theory and I'm trying

869

:

to beat everybody over the head with it.

870

:

But what I do have is a

stance, a perspective.

871

:

and we can use the term human centered

design, although I, for other, just like

872

:

I don't like some of the other labels, I

don't particularly like that label, for

873

:

reasons I might go into another time.

874

:

But, it did, it was an attempt to

at least say, my interest is around,

875

:

people and the world in which they live,

which and the ecosystem in which they

876

:

are in, which includes other people,

artifacts, the workplace, their physical

877

:

neighborhood, you know, the environment.

878

:

So in that sense, I'm interested in that

whole ecosystem and systems thinking.

879

:

I mean, that's why I'm interested in

going back and trying to bring in some

880

:

aspects from even earlier literature.

881

:

What are there still things of relevance

in the socio technical literature, even

882

:

in some of the cybernetics literature,

second order cybernetics especially, which

883

:

included the observer in the process,

not just about the technical system.

884

:

Yeah, so it's a, as I said, I

think my, role is, as I said,

885

:

not as some visionary visionary.

886

:

I don't think, or somebody who is

a theorist actually, but, somebody

887

:

maybe who in a sense was trying to

ask questions and, and and trying to

888

:

raise questions which at the time maybe

within the field, certainly within the

889

:

computing field, were not being asked

very much and so they were at least

890

:

trying to open the door, maybe that's a

way to put it as a for opening a door.

891

:

Letting a chink of light

into other work, and

892

:

Geri: And doors are connections.

893

:

Liam: Yeah, making connections.

894

:

Like if people are curious, the last,

that little Forgetting paper, which

895

:

I actually quite like because it's

appeared in Co Design, the journal,

896

:

in 2006, I'm not sure, but it's called

Forgetting is a Feature, Not a Bug.

897

:

The main message was really just saying

that this fascination about the capture

898

:

of things, video recording, SenseCam,

Microsoft SenseCam, this idea of you know,

899

:

suddenly we're going to record thousands

of images and we're going to record every

900

:

phone call and every commu Somehow that

this was in a, like going to increase

901

:

our awareness of the world and our kind

of our memory of ourselves and whatever.

902

:

There seemed to me a fundamental lack

of understanding in these visions,

903

:

these bizarre visions, techno visions,

of what it was to be human, what

904

:

it was to be a person in the world.

905

:

How remembering is an active process, it's

not a computer recording of something.

906

:

How forgetting is an integral

part of our human activity.

907

:

How social forgetting is also an important

part And of course It's important we

908

:

don't forget certain things, I mean,

or we'll repeat mistakes of the past.

909

:

But there's a sense in which forgetting,

to a point, as a, thinking about it as

910

:

a design issue, that there are times

when we don't want to be recorded.

911

:

And to think about that as a design

space, so it's not for or against a

912

:

particular capture model, it's to try and

create scenarios that are believable in

913

:

the sense of what it means to be human.

914

:

And when I read in the early days, say,

of ambient intelligence, which is, I think

915

:

of as the second or third coming of AI,

there's this notion of us being surrounded

916

:

by these intelligent artifacts that would

do things for us, that would be agents for

917

:

us, and human like that we would discuss.

918

:

It seemed to me that it was like a

very strange, perfect world that didn't

919

:

make any sense and it was really in

the context of that that I started to

920

:

developing this issue around forgetting.

921

:

But the other thing I wanted to say

about that article is, again, it's

922

:

not a standard scientific article,

but it's a walk through a space,

923

:

and in that walk I kind of try to

link to history, to philosophy, to

924

:

psychology, to sociology, to law.

925

:

I mean, because people have talked

about issues around forgetting and

926

:

memory and history in all these areas,

and I believe that making us aware of

927

:

some of these nuances might make us

come up with more believable scenarios.

928

:

And another area that I would mention

just briefly would be in the health

929

:

area where again, or the intelligent

home assisted living and some of these

930

:

areas where again, I think we too

often start with a piece of technology.

931

:

And thankfully now in the last few

years, I think we're starting to

932

:

get the message across . I talk

about that a little in a:

933

:

paper on, uh, in the interactions,

934

:

...

Geri: I'll put a link to all of these on the web page.

935

:

So Liam, any comments in closing?

936

:

Liam: In a way, when I look back at at

some of the things I've done, I think

937

:

I've been very fortunate just to happen

to be kind of in spaces and places where

938

:

things were changing and I happened to be

interested in those ages and I've had some

939

:

bleeding at those edges, but actually most

of the time I've actually been able to

940

:

have a good view and, and to actually walk

with people, really interesting people.

941

:

[I've learned so interesting

yeah, I've and places].

942

:

I feel so fortunate in in the colleagues

I've had and in, in the journey I've

943

:

had with people kind of, and I've

learned so much over these years, but.

944

:

At the same time, I think there's a

core there, which is always that I

945

:

started out with this interest and

concern with people and their world,

946

:

and it's still, that's still there.

947

:

It's just such a richer framework

and understanding I have of

948

:

that now than when I started

949

:

But, uh, the, and maybe some of it, in

terms of any message to anybody or what

950

:

they might find of interest, is that.

951

:

In some of the bits and pieces

I've written, actually a lot of

952

:

them are kind of essays, really.

953

:

They're kind of perspectives

or positionings.

954

:

One of my favorite words is,

two of my favorite words are

955

:

framing and perspectives.

956

:

And that's in some of the

work in design around framing.

957

:

What is a problem?

958

:

Problem formulation is very important

to me because I think very often

959

:

we start to solve a problem without

knowing what the problem is.

960

:

It's the wrong problem.

961

:

So I think a lot of the time

having a look at how you

962

:

understand what it is you're doing.

963

:

What is the frame you're in?

964

:

Are you comfortable with it?

965

:

Is it, is there, does it seem that it's

actually suitable for what you're doing?

966

:

So I think Some people find that at times

refreshing that they've, maybe, some of

967

:

the things open a little vista or open

that little door into a space maybe

968

:

they hadn't thought about and I'm happy

if, to hear if it encourages people not

969

:

to follow me in a particular path but

rather to actually follow their own path.

970

:

In um, In the sense of actually

exploring something that maybe is not

971

:

necessarily approved by your immediate

superior or whatever, but that is what

972

:

the road you feel you want to travel.

973

:

Geri: Yep, yep.

974

:

Liam: So, go do it.

975

:

Geri: Go do it, yes, yep.

976

:

And so, thank you.

977

:

And, just in terms of influence, I was

reminded then that there was a book

978

:

some years ago, Where we were asked to

contribute a chapter that reflected what

979

:

was really influential in our work.

980

:

And the paper that I wrote about

was the paper that you and Kjeld

981

:

wrote, in the early days of CSCW.

982

:

And how that, that's been

really influential in setting

983

:

my own career trajectory off.

984

:

So, I personally have

a lot to thank you for.

985

:

And just thank you for your time now

986

:

Liam: And it's interesting, to try

to articulate a vision because at that

987

:

time we had seen some work in CSCW

which seemed to rather than opening

988

:

out the space, the possibilities of

the technology, was starting to embed

989

:

within the technology protocols for, for

instance, embedding social protocols in

990

:

the technology now at the group level.

991

:

And so to, to me this was.

992

:

anathema to the idea

of what CSCW should be.

993

:

And then the interest in trying

to say, we're not talking, we're

994

:

not starting with the technology.

995

:

So we parse CSCW from right

to left, not left to right.

996

:

We try to understand work, cooperative

work, supporting it, and then we

997

:

talk about the role of technology.

998

:

Geri: So this is a perfect example

of your framing and perspective

999

:

Liam: Yeah, thank you.

:

01:05:23,229 --> 01:05:28,909

, I, I think we're, both Kjeld and I are,

are very happy to see that the paper,

:

01:05:28,909 --> 01:05:32,669

although it was published initially

in this obscure brand new journal.

:

01:05:32,804 --> 01:05:34,674

of CSCW.

:

01:05:35,304 --> 01:05:39,034

the journal which we actually

started, um, along with some others.

:

01:05:39,774 --> 01:05:44,764

But, uh, it's really nice to see that

people still find that, it gives a

:

01:05:45,594 --> 01:05:51,064

position and it articulates a position

on a set of issues which people still

:

01:05:51,484 --> 01:05:52,529

Geri: still find relevant.

:

01:05:52,859 --> 01:05:53,099

Yeah.

:

01:05:54,059 --> 01:05:58,339

Which is also a good story about

starting the new journal, new

:

01:05:58,339 --> 01:06:03,049

conference, new interdisciplinary

research area that's was new then and

:

01:06:03,049 --> 01:06:05,089

just still exists and is more mainstream.

:

01:06:05,089 --> 01:06:07,309

And that papers can

still get cited from it.

:

01:06:07,549 --> 01:06:07,879

Liam: Mm-Hmm.

:

01:06:08,389 --> 01:06:10,009

hmm.

:

01:06:10,009 --> 01:06:10,279

Yep.

:

01:06:11,234 --> 01:06:15,964

Geri: So Liam, thank you and

wishing you all the very best.

:

01:06:19,324 --> 01:06:22,834

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

:

01:06:22,834 --> 01:06:25,974

links for this podcast on www.

:

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changingacademiclife.

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com.

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You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Stitcher,

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Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

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01:06:35,854 --> 01:06:39,784

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

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And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

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01:06:43,484 --> 01:06:45,464

we can do academia differently.

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01:06:45,904 --> 01:06:49,984

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

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01:06:50,474 --> 01:06:54,554

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

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with your colleagues together.

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We can make change happen.

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