Liam Bannon is a Professor Emeritus and founder and director of the Interaction Design Centre at the University of Limerick in Ireland.

Liam has been a hugely influential thinker writer and researcher since the 1980s, along with various collaborators, in shaping work around technology and design.   

Recorded in-person in 2017, he reflects on his interdisciplinary journey and contributions, covering areas such as AI, HCI, CSCW, human-centered design, and collaboration. Liam’s experiences exemplify the challenges and rewards of crafting a unique academic career largely outside the box, grounded in interdisciplinary collaboration and a commitment to improving human-technology interactions, while also highlighting the importance of personal fulfilment and being able to think broadly.

Related Links:

Liam at the Interaction Design Centre, Uni of Limerick

Some of the people & papers he mentions:

George Miller

Zenon Pylyshyn, (1973). What the mind's eye tells the mind's brain: A critique of mental imagery. Psychological Bulletin, 80(1), 1–24. 

H. Rudy Ramsey and Michael E Attwood (1979) Human Factors in Computer Systems: A Review of the Literature, Technical Report SAI-79-111DEN

James Jenkins, Uni of Minnesota

Don Norman, Human Centered Design, UCSD. See also  https://jnd.org

Kjeld Schmidt 

Lucy Suchman

Rob Kling Center for Social Informatics 

Susanne Bødker, Aarhus Uni; see also our 2023 podcast conversation

Mike Cooley, Engineer Lucas Aerospace

Terry Winograd and Fernando Flores, Understanding Computers and Cognition, A New Foundation for Design, 1987, Addison-Wesley.

Bannon, L. & Bødker, S. (1991) Beyond the Interface: Encountering Artifacts in Use. Book Chapter in J.M. Carroll (Ed.) (1991) Designing Interaction: Psychology at the Human-Computer Interface, pp.227-253. (New York: Cambridge University Press) (See also an earlier version)

Bud Mehan, UCSD  

Pelle Ehn, Morten Kyng and Participatory Design e.g., see this paper

Rank Xerox Cambridge EuroPARC e.g., see overview articles 'What is EuroPARC?' and 'Rank Xerox Cambridge EuroPARC'

Liam J. Bannon (2006) Forgetting as a feature, not a bug: the duality of memory and implications for ubiquitous computing, CoDesign, 2:1, 3-15

Liam J. Bannon (2012) Interactions

Schmidt, K., Bannon, L., Four characters in search of a context

Schmidt, K., Bannon, L. Taking CSCW seriously. Comput Supported Coop Work 1, 7–40 (1992). 

The Google Scholar listing of all of Liam’s publications

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Liam: The point is that there's also new

ideas and, and kind of ways of thinking

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about problems that really, if we don't

allow that, if we don't give people

7

some space to think outside the box,

like we're going to be stuck in the box.

8

it's and it's a very small, I

believe it's a very small box.

9

Geri: That's the voice of Liam

Bannon my guest in this episode.

10

And Liam was never one

to be stuck in the boxes.

11

Liam is a professor emeritus and he

was the founder and director of the

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interaction design center at the

university of Limerick in Ireland.

13

As you'll hear in, Liam's

telling of his own story.

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He was always looking for

the links and ideas outside

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of, and in between the boxes.

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He's been a hugely influential

thinker writer and researcher.

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Along with his various collaborators.

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In shaping work around

technology and design.

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Contributing, especially to the

areas of human computer interaction.

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HCI and computer supported cooperative

work CSCW and doing so drawing on his

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very broad disciplinary interests.

22

One thing I think is particularly

interesting, given all that is happening

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now with AI artificial intelligence.

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are his reflections on being around the

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it's also really interesting the way

his career story provides a personalized

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account in a way of the story of the

development of the fields of HCI.

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And CSCW.

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More generally.

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I think his story is an example of the

opportunities and challenges that come

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from trying to shape your own path.

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And follow what you really

believe in and what interests you.

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Albeit recognizing that he was able to

do this in a different era of academia.

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Starting at around 37 minutes he also

steps back from some of the details

34

of his career and reflects more

generally across some of these issues.

35

I should say here that we

36

Yes.

37

You heard that right.

38

And this was at the ECSCW

conference in Sheffield.

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So a small heads up , because we

were in person there's some cross

40

microphone capture and back channeling.

41

So it may not be as clean as

if we recorded remotely, but

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still more than understandable.

43

And I'll also just add that at this time.

44

And in the ensuing period, Liam

has been dealing with some really

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significant and serious health issues.

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We're going to record a part two of

our conversation to continue some

47

reflections on these experiences.

48

As well as his more general

reflections and lessons learned that

49

we can take away from his career.

50

So I hope you enjoy this

conversation with Liam Bannon.

51

I'm really delighted to be able

to speak with you today, Liam.

52

So thanks for giving me the time.

53

For people who don't know

you, just a little bit of

54

context about your background.

55

What, your first degree was

cognitive science, psychology?

56

Liam: Well, it was science,

actually, it was a science.

57

I had an interest in school in both.

58

the arts and the sciences and

so it was a bit of a problem

59

as to what direction to go in.

60

remember this teacher saying, do science,

you might get a job at the end of it.

61

So I did science, so it was maths,

physics, chemistry, biology.

62

My interest was chemistry really,

but in terms of those subjects.

63

But in the second year of my undergraduate

and that degree, they had a new program

64

of maths, psychology, computer science.

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This is back in 1971.

66

Geri: That's that's a bit

of a radical combination.

67

Liam: Yeah, it was a bit strange

because psychology was actually in the

68

arts building, in the arts faculty.

69

And, uh, computer science had just been

introduced as an undergraduate subject

70

the year before, 1970, so it was very new

as an undergraduate, so I didn't really

71

know much about psychology or computing.

72

I remember going out that

summer before the start.

73

It just appealed to me as something

a bit different so there were about

74

12 of us who took that option.

75

and and of that 12, then we were

traipsed over to psychology lectures

76

in the arts building every, every day.

77

And, uh, I really enjoyed it because what

psychology, the undergraduate program in

78

UCD in Dublin was a very general one that

meant you, introduced you to everything,

79

all different areas, animal behavior,

perception, learning, memory, educational

80

psychology, personality, statistics.

81

Physiology, you know,

82

Geri: Wow yeah

83

Liam: it allowed, I just found it,

it was great because I knew in a

84

sense I was really a wordsmith.

85

My interests were more

English history and that.

86

So this opened out that, it put me back

even though I was in a science program.

87

Then we, the third year we did

computer science and psychology.

88

At that stage didn't have an

honors degree in computing.

89

So we just had a general degree

in computing and then the final

90

year we just did psychology.

91

So I ended up, and that, in that

last year especially, I became

92

interested in relationships between

the two, computing and psychology.

93

And there were two areas,

obviously, of interest.

94

One was the modeling, thinking of

the computer as a model for the mind.

95

And so a lot of psychologists

were thinking of inputs and the

96

information processing model.

97

And of course I was interested in that.

98

Another area was, of course then the

idea of artificial intelligence, and

99

I became interested in thinking of the

computer as a model for the mind, as

100

something to help us understand the mind.

101

I was interested basically in

cognition and thinking, the mind,

102

language, they were my main interests.

103

Um, I also found computing

interesting and, you know, some

104

of the semantics of programming

languages and things like that.

105

Some, some aspects of

computing I found interesting.

106

The second area of interest, which was a

more practical one, was that I worked As

107

both an instructor in computing, but also

on the help desk in the computing center.

108

And I started to pay attention

to the concerns of people

109

with using the technology.

110

And this is in the days

of punch cards and that.

111

But there was still this issue of like

people, errors that people people were

112

making in compiling and running programs.

113

And so I had that sort of human

factors interest in computing systems.

114

So what that led to was a feeling

I wanted to move on, but I was, I

115

wanted to be more in psychology, on

the human science side, than on the

116

computing side I wanted to do both.

117

So I, there was an opportunity to do a

Masters in computing in Trinity in Dublin.

118

One year I kind of taught Masters,

they just started in computer science.

119

And we had some funding for it.

120

So I did that for a year and I did a small

project on looking at programming errors.

121

So I collected data on people

running programs and what were the

122

most frequent errors and things.

123

It was a fairly basic, uh,

logging study basically.

124

Um, and then I was thinking about

doing further work and so I was looking

125

for positions or doctoral positions.

126

outside of Ireland, so

mainly in North America.

127

And I was thinking about, I wanted

to, to be sort of in AI, but not

128

in, Like the straight computer

129

Geri: Yeah, the technical

130

Liam: So I was looking for people

who had psychology in computing.

131

And at that time there were about

three, three or four groups.

132

There were some of the Carnegie

Mellon people crossed, like

133

Newell and Simon and that.

134

There was Norman and Lindsay

and Rumelhart, kind of

135

the people at San Diego.

136

There was a couple of people in

Washington State, Hunt and some people.

137

And then I I was reading at this stage

kind of AI articles and I was a member of

138

SIGART and I used to get the newsletter

and I was quite young and trying to learn.

139

We didn't have courses on AI now.

140

Matter of fact, our psychology teacher

was totally against the idea of AI.

141

And, uh, but I felt it was, I was kind

of a proponent of thinking of it as

142

a new way of thinking about the mind.

143

So.

144

I, by chance came across an article.

145

By somebody who wrote a review

of IJHCI 73, I I think it was.

146

This was in 74 or so.

147

And it was by this guy with a very

strange name called Zenon Pilishin.

148

And, uh, who, and I was

curious, who is this guy?

149

And he was at a place called the

University of Western Ontario.

150

I said, where's that?

151

And he said, it's in London,

Ontario, in Canada, near Toronto.

152

And I looked up his background,

and he was an interesting mix.

153

Mix, he was an engineer initially

who then did psychology So he

154

had a computing background and

a, and a psychology background.

155

He also had interest in

philosophy of science.

156

But he was in the psychology

department two thirds and one

157

third in computer science.

158

Geri: So you recognized a kindred spirit.

159

Liam: So I thought this might

be somebody interesting.

160

And then I contacted him and he sent

me a couple of papers and I read them.

161

And I, What the Mind's Eye

Tells the Mind's Brain, one

162

of his very classic papers.

163

And I thought this is

interesting, so I went there.

164

Geri: So I'm going to put a link

on the web page to an article that,

165

someone wrote after interviewing

you that actually talks through

166

all of your career moves and that.

167

One of the things that really what

strikes me when I think about you

168

is, and it's reflected in what you

said at the very beginning about your

169

interest, is how eclectic you are.

170

And what I think you've done in terms of

contributing to the field is doing a lot

171

of that bridging between different fields.

172

And often being at the forefront of

some of the new bridges that emerge.

173

Whether that's some of the early

cognitive science stuff or the

174

participatory design stuff or, yeah.

175

How how did you, how did you.

176

Get to the sort of lead of these waves.

177

Liam: Well, because in a sense, I

mean, around that time, cognitive

178

psychology was reaching out in terms

of trying to understand the mind.

179

And so it was the start of the whole,

the cognitive movement was 60s with

180

Bruner and, um, Miller Galanter, pre

brain plans and structural behavior.

181

So that had been on.

182

nicer cognitive psychology.

183

So this was the first movement in

terms of trying to understand more,

184

thinking of the mechanisms of the mind.

185

And so in that sense, one example of

mechanism we had was the computer.

186

So it became interesting to think

about how could we, if we build, it

187

wasn't the idea of building a robot

so much that wasn't of interest to me.

188

It was the idea of having a mechanism

by which We might be able to explore

189

the functional way in which something

could happen in terms of the mind.

190

Um, so that was what was

of interest initially.

191

And so in that sense, cognitive

science was emerging around this time.

192

And actually my supervisor, Zenon, was

one of the major players in that whole

193

emergence of cognitive science in the 80s.

194

Uh, or in the 70s, late 70s, mid 70s.

195

So I was kind of aware of his

circle of people and contacts.

196

He was visiting at M.

197

I.

198

T.

199

at the A.

200

I.

201

Lab.

202

He was visiting with

people at Carnegie Mellon.

203

We were on the ARPANET.

204

We had a dial into the ARPANET

even in those early days.

205

So I was kind of aware of, you know,

It was the first time for me like

206

being in a research environment

where here was somebody who was

207

intellectually in the vanguard,

kind of connected in this movement.

208

So interdisciplinarity, mixing kind

of computing, psychology, and also to

209

some extent like fostering neuroscience

is kind of thinking about mind.

210

Um, So that was one phase, kind of the,

and linguistics also actually, language

211

and language mechanisms was also in there.

212

So that was cognitive science and then a

few years later we had, I could explain

213

like HCI to me then was a emergence of

people and I've written a little bit

214

about this in terms of my view of how

that emerged kind of partly with some

215

people on the technical side becoming

curious why people weren't using the

216

software and also on the psychology

side in terms of thinking of an applied

217

psychology area of people using technology

and thinking about, um, this idea of,

218

uh, the information processing model

that we could ascribe kind of both

219

computers and humans in the same way and

describe them as processing information.

220

And then after HCI, then you

had CSCW, and that really

221

Geri: Which is Computer Supported

Cooperative Work, which is trying

222

to bring attention to the social

and collaborative aspects of

223

Liam: To me, though, the common element

was really about going back going back

224

to even earlier, the Human Factors in

Computer Systems, which is the original

225

title of HCI, of the HCI conference.

226

Um, and there was some work back in

the 70s, and in fact there was an

227

early Atwood and Ramsey, back in 78,

I think it was, had a bibliography

228

of work in Human Factors in Computer

Systems, which I got hold of, um, in 78.

229

I spent a year, 78, 79, at Honeywell, Uh,

in Minnesota as a human factors intern.

230

But I wrote to them.

231

They were looking for more

traditional performance.

232

human factors people.

233

But I wrote and said, well, they should

actually be interested in computing

234

because more people were using

computers and computer based systems and

235

cognitive science was an emerging area.

236

And so, tongue in cheek a little, I

said they should hire somebody who had

237

this mix of backgrounds in computing.

238

Geri: And lo and behold,

you know, I'm your man.

239

Liam: And so they took a, took a gamble.

240

I was one of three people.

241

The other two were, had more

traditional human engineering programs.

242

But actually, it turned out,

quite interesting that year, um,

243

in ways that I hadn't expected.

244

Part of, also because I had a link

with the University of Minnesota, the

245

Center for Research in Human Learning,

Jim Jenkins group, and there were some

246

very interesting graduate students

there who I found very interesting.

247

There were also people at Honeywell,

but what they discovered was in a way

248

that the fact that I had some computing

background as well and my interest in

249

that area was actually quite suited to

some of the projects they were doing.

250

And, uh, also opened my eyes a

little bit to working in the military

251

industrial complex because a lot

of the projects at Honeywell were,

252

uh, on the defense system side.

253

And that was something new to me given

I come from Ireland and Canada, where

254

it wasn't very big or non existent.

255

Well, not quite non existent.

256

There are a few projects defense

projects in Canada, but not a lot of

257

the communications and technology work

in Canada wasn't military related.

258

So, is so what I'm saying is that to my

mind, the common element of all of this

259

in going on to interaction design and

participatory design, the common element

260

was really that I was interested in, not

just in the mechanisms in terms of the

261

technology, but in terms of the fact that

how it could supposedly support people.

262

So my interest always had been in

thinking of the technology as a medium

263

through which, which allowed people to do

things, either in terms of being a tool

264

or in terms of being a medium through

which they could connect with others.

265

My interest wasn't in trying to extract

human expertise into the machine.

266

but rather thinking of the

machine as a tool or artefact.

267

Geri: Yeah.

268

Liam: And that became more, it started

out as a rather naive understanding,

269

kind of in a sense just a concern about

trying to support people, and also being

270

concerned that I found a lot of people on

the technology side Just viewed people as

271

stupid who had problems, you know, that

they were stupid users, you know, they

272

didn't understand their, it's obvious,

you know, it was, and I found this is

273

really like at a certain moral level.

274

I felt this was objectionable.

275

It cast thinking of most

people in the world as being.

276

And also a bad design stance to be

taking because I think it's led to

277

designing systems for idiots rather

than trying to think about designing

278

for competent human practitioners.

279

And in that sense also, when I went

to California as a post doc to Don

280

Norman's group, I spent also a lot of

time, Interacting with a group there,

281

Mike Cole and his group, the Laboratory

for Comparative Human Cognition.

282

And they were, Interested in cultural

historical activity theory and

283

Vygotsky traditions and a major

aspect of that was the idea of

284

thinking of mediating artifacts.

285

Vygotsky's notions of language as a

mediator in terms of communication.

286

And the idea that mind is not

just something that is individual,

287

that we move from the individual.

288

The standard notion from the more

traditional psychology was we'd

289

individual mind, then we might

talk about the group or the social

290

mind, the mass or something larger.

291

it was very much, the first thing

was the individual and the self,

292

kind of an individual creation.

293

Whereas in this other view,

when you start reading Vygotsky,

294

kind of Vygotsky mind is social.

295

And so the notion that we go from,

Inter to intra rather than from

296

intra to inter, I found fascinating.

297

So there was a theoretical framework

that I became interested in, in terms of

298

looking at, in a sense, the ecosystem.

299

It wasn't just the individual

using the technology, which is very

300

much the focus of a lot of HCI.

301

But even from those early days, I had

an interest in something larger than

302

that individual human computer dyad.

303

And I think that's reflected actually, I

mean, I, in the work I did at San Diego,

304

not that it was not very, um, it was very

naive, it wasn't very well theoretically

305

grounded, it wasn't experimentally well

founded, but in my own thinking, my time

306

there, and to give credit to Don, although

at times he was unsure where I was going

307

and what going I was doing, he actually

gave me the space and, and, you know,

308

opened, allowed me to actually explore.

309

And that time in San Diego was

very, very important in terms of my

310

intellectual development, in terms of

trying to kind of understand more and

311

framing how to talk about these things.

312

And even though the output from my

time there is quite little, it can be

313

seen in actually a tech report, parts

of which appeared in three chapters in

314

the user centered system design book.

315

But if you read those

316

has been really pivotal, I'm not

sure about that, I don't think so,

317

but it influenced a few people.

318

But I don't think it comes across as

strongly in the three pieces because

319

they're in separate parts of the book.

320

All noise.

321

A little piece called Issues in Design.

322

And that's talking a little bit about

the ethics of design and about how we

323

think about, you know, idiot proof design

how think about, you how we think about

324

and the people we're designing for.

325

Just a very small note, a few

pages, but the second piece was on

326

the social, well it ended up being

called Helping Users Help Each Other.

327

But that piece was really talking about

the social context of design, saying

328

you know, why are we spending all this

effort on building help systems Computer

329

automated Help systems, and yet we do

very few studies of how they're used.

330

Yeah.

331

And in act of fact,

they're not used a lot.

332

And partly the reason is because

they're written from the perspective of

333

the machine and they describe all the

features of the machine, but they're not

334

written from a human practice perspective

as we would say today in terms of an

335

understanding of how do we use what's

useful here in the specific context

336

of our work and when we want to do.

337

Something to make these systems

usable in our daily context.

338

We talk to our neighbor or somebody.

339

And so, why?

340

Geri: yeah,

341

Liam: in that, I try to raise this issue

of how, how do we find out information?

342

Rather than going to these help systems,

we actually, very often, we ask others.

343

We ask people who have similar

practices and we learn from them.

344

And then, how come we never

talk about that in HCI?

345

How come we don't think,

is there some way?

346

And the next stage of that for

me was, is there some way through

347

the system we could have access to

others in terms of online resources?

348

Not to a piece of dead text,

but actually to live people.

349

So in a sense, the third chapter is

on computer mediated communication.

350

Not in the classic sense of just how

email comparing online and offline,

351

but I put out a query on the early

internet which was, An unused net,

352

which was asking about collaboration

tools, using the technology as a medium.

353

And the chapter is computers

as communication devices.

354

So, saying not to look at the

computer as a calculator or as a

355

substitute human, rather as a medium

through which we can communicate.

356

And it's kind of ironic in a sense,

because the whole interest in social

357

media, you could say, and exactly what

Facebook does, it's, it's a medium.

358

Geri: Exactly.

359

So much of what we use technology for now.

360

So, when you look back, because you

have had many sort of shifts and

361

moves and explorations throughout

your career as these ideas, you

362

know, evolve and new, new contacts

are made and you go to new places.

363

When you look back, what are the sorts

of things where you think you have

364

made a really strong contribution or

the things that you're proudest of?

365

Liam: Well, I don't know.

366

It's hard sometimes because in

a sense I'm, I'm a bit of a sham

367

in some sense, like in terms

of a standard research profile.

368

Because I think the contribution I

make is rather, a rather elusive one.

369

It's kind of a and elusive.

370

Allusive and allusive and alluding

to, and I think my, you see the

371

papers I write, most of them, they're

not, well I have a few pieces where

372

there's empirical work and that's also

sometimes done with people in my group.

373

But I think the contribution that I

make is often trying to point to topics

374

or issues and bringing in material

that I think should be relevant.

375

In some cases I don't have a strong

conceptual fame from first principles.

376

In some cases I work with people

because of course I have a specific

377

view on certain things, but I also am

influenced by, hugely by my collaborators.

378

And I've had a huge

number of collaborators.

379

I really like working with people.

380

And a lot of the people's, in some

of the pieces that are more well

381

known, of course, a lot of this strong

kind of conceptual work is often

382

done by my colleagues, I will say.

383

But what I do is help shape it and

frame it and, and relate it in a way.

384

And I think, so I play this role that.

385

I think if we all did this, there'd be

very little empirical research done of

386

the proper kind maybe, but I think there

is a space for trying to, trying to move

387

forward in terms of, not always trying

to be, quote, new, but it's trying to,

388

in actual fact, part of what I think My

contribution is in trying to say, what's

389

out there that we might learn from?

390

What other bodies of work may be

relevant that we seem to be ignoring?

391

And in a sense, although in some

cases, it might appear at first that

392

I'm all over the place, actually, I

think there is a core, and the core,

393

It's basically, in a sense, human

centered design, or a focus on people.

394

And it so happens, because I

did computing, I'm surrounded by

395

people working with technology and

artifacts and systems that supposedly

396

support people, but yet they don't.

397

So I was very happy with CSCW, Computer

Support for Collaborative Work, and

398

Kjeld and I, Kjeld Schmidt, you know,

One of my major collaborators for

399

many years, um, like what we were

interested in was that idea of support

400

for people and people's practices

401

Geri: Yeah.

402

Liam: not starting out with just

groupware or technology but to understand

403

how people do things and then how we

can maybe design better technology

404

that fits into those practices.

405

And in that sense, like it also led me

into an interest in with the sociology

406

and anthropology people like Lucy

Suchman's work originally and in showing

407

again how you know, understanding the

context of work, the local organization

408

of work, and then the ethnomethodology

people and the sociologists with their

409

concern about members practices and

the way in which work is something

410

that is achieved, not a given.

411

And so it gave a lens, a very detailed

account of how work gets done, which

412

I thought was extremely helpful for

people in design to think about and to

413

realize not to talk about abstractions.

414

Geri: Or to talk about the stupid user.

415

Exactly.

416

So you're a really good example of

taking advantage of having eclectic

417

interests and being broad intellectually.

418

There's some ways in which now

many of our measures almost sort

419

of presume or require us to be

deep and to be known for one thing.

420

But but you've crafted a career, probably

not intentionally, I'm assuming, in,

421

in being able to exploit the synergies

at, at these intersections and with

422

very diverse collaborators because

you have these broad interests.

423

Liam: I thought the way you

phrased the question, maybe, I

424

think it might, What bothers me?

425

Well, what bothers me?

426

People are always saying I'm concerned

about things, this, having concerns.

427

Um, yeah, it concerns me a little because

it makes it sound a bit as if eclectic.

428

So, you do lots of different things

and then maybe you can bring them in.

429

I think there's a sense in which, as

I said, my interest is in people, in,

430

you know, Not just moving out from

psychology, it's not just the individual

431

mind, because I I don't believe there

is so much in the individual mind.

432

And also, ironically, although I was

trained in cognitive psychology and

433

information processing psychology, I've

actually, you know, I became disillusioned

434

with that in the, actually quite early

on in the mid, late 70s even when I was

435

doing my thesis and I, I kind of became

very, antithetical to the AI movement

436

and became very critical of it because it

seemed to all the time posit as if though,

437

you know, that sort of the mind, the

computer was a good mechanism for a model

438

of what it is to be human of the mind, and

I don't think it is, it might have it's

439

a model, but it leaves out a whole lot

of things, like in that Early days, it's

440

like, we didn't talk about emotions, we

didn't, emotions were some epiphenomenon,

441

or, we didn't, we ignored it, and yet

emotions are so fundamental to what it is

442

to be human, yet, for many years it was

ignored, so, I mean, my interest moved

443

more in terms of, Understanding humans,

the human, humankind, in a sense, more

444

sociological, anthropological perspectives

on understanding society, the nature of

445

human society, and the evolution of, in

that sense, my interest in artifacts.

446

It's not just about, you know, Industrial

design, but it or buildings or whatever,

447

which I'm also interested in people living

in spaces because my interest is in human

448

activity and human activity is also,

449

Geri: all of these,

450

Liam: but it encompasses artifacts that

we make from the earliest tool, man as

451

a tool user, like we, we live in houses,

we have habitation, we domesticate

452

animals, we have, we live with others.

453

So in the sense that interest in

people is fundamental and because

454

I did computing the interest then

becomes the artifacts that we create

455

in these new kinds of artifacts since

the dawn of computing, which don't,

456

in many cases, disrupt our, our lives.

457

Can we do it better?

458

But the problem is always that

too much we focus on the artifact.

459

How can this app help us in our lives?

460

And what I've been trying to do because

from a work point of view, I've normally

461

ended up in computing departments

because that's where there are jobs.

462

But I've always, in a sense,

that informatics informatics

463

should also encompass the social.

464

Actually social informatics, I mean

Rob Kling and others use that term,

465

that but I don't even like the term

because to me informatics is social.

466

Is inherently foundationally social

because it's about people and artifacts.

467

And if you're going to design

artifacts, people are going to

468

work with them and therefore you

should know something about people.

469

It doesn't mean you train them as

psychologists or anthropologists or

470

ethnographers, but anybody studying

computing it should also encompass

471

Like, the context in which computing

developed, back to the days of, even

472

you go back to Babbage and calculating

machines, I mean, he also needed

473

locksmiths and, uh, designers and

blacksmiths to build those tools and

474

we very often ignore the skill sets

of these people in creating the things

475

and in using, in fashioning a product.

476

so human computer, I I don't

like the term human computer

477

interaction, by the way, but that's

478

Geri: Me either.

479

Liam: story.

480

I don't like the term user, I don't,

481

Geri: That reflects your, your,

your focus on the human person.

482

You're like very much

483

Liam: Yeah, the human

society really, yeah.

484

And that is the common thread.

485

So for me, The interest in CSCW, the

interest in designing interactive

486

systems is more the interest in the

design process on how we open up design,

487

on how we try to democratize design.

488

My interest in participative

design, when I first encountered

489

it in the, early 80s was through

some of the work in Scandinavia.

490

And again, I've been very influenced

by many people there and my link with

491

Aarhus, with Susanne Bødker others

have been very influential for me.

492

But my interest was.

493

I felt at the time in San Diego we

were doing user centered design,

494

focusing on the user in the sense of

psychologists understanding the user.

495

But we weren't really, Still at

the point of involvement in design.

496

Geri: Yeah.

497

Yeah

498

Liam: And that idea of actually

reading about people, really

499

involving working with people in

trade unions and the workers, kind

500

of an understanding their expertise.

501

So I loved this idea.

502

One of the papers somebody wrote

about, you know, not expert

503

systems, but system for experts.

504

You know, the idea of, and another

early influence of mine, that many

505

people may not have heard of, that

I've been influenced by as an Irish

506

engineer, who worked, at Lucas

and Lucas Aerospace, Mike Cooley.

507

And I heard Mike Cooley talk in the early

seventies and was very influenced by that.

508

And he had an interest in the work of Marx

and manual labor and tools and the notion

509

of skill and tool sets and technology.

510

Building on that, not, so I'm

not trying to make an antithesis,

511

Geri: Yeah.

512

Liam: I'm trying to rethink the

relationship between people, tools,

513

computers, in ways that are very

different to the thinking that I

514

found in a lot of computer science

and AI, which was very much kind of,

515

you know, the human as a meat machine,

of, like, as a machine, basically.

516

Geri: Mm-Hmm.

517

Liam: The other influence, I

guess, back in the late 70s, early

518

80s was Terry Winograd and his

work with Flores and that one.

519

The emerging drafts of

that book I was privy to.

520

And that helped me in the idea of

moving from, you know, to realize

521

that we needed something other than

the information processing model.

522

I talk about a bit with

that in the early 80s.

523

sorry, the late 80s with paper

with Susanne, Beyond the Interface,

524

Encountering Artifacts in Use, which

appeared in Jack Carroll's book.

525

But that talks a bit about that history.

526

But to me it's, so just to go back

when you kind of prompted about

527

eclecticism, I just wanted to, yes,

I do have wide interest history.

528

Geri: I guess I don't mean eclecticism

in a derogatory way, but, there's value

529

in, in having the interest, the skills,

the intellectual capacity to make

530

these links and draw these connections.

531

a um, there's a particular role that,

um, There's a, and there's a particular,

532

I don't know, move intellectually as a

community that we get from those sorts of

533

discussions that we don't get just from

those of us who might stay within a little

534

bubble or a silo or very narrow area.

535

Liam: Well, I think there's a space, and

maybe it, what I would say, because I

536

sometimes feel like Forrest Gump because

I, I feel like I appeared in places.

537

I I happen be fortunate appeared,

by chance in a way, a lot of

538

interesting points of inflection there.

539

Geri: Which this nice, this article

sort of draws out really really nicely.

540

Liam: Yeah, because I got, for

instance, being with Don Normans

541

and Steve Draper, the user centered

human computer interaction project.

542

Human Machine Interaction Project

at UC San Diego in the early 80s.

543

That was one of the early,

very early HCI projects.

544

And

545

Geri: Yeah.

546

Liam: I'd, again, they found me

interesting because I'd done this

547

psychology and computing, human

factors, I'd been at Honeywell,

548

I had this human factors and

computer systems sort of thing.

549

And so there weren't many people

with, there weren't undergraduate

550

programs and sort of stuff.

551

So that was interesting.

552

I mean, I met a A lot of interesting

people there and, as I said, I also

553

have links to other people at San

Diego outside of the Cognitive Science

554

group who also were influential to me.

555

People in Sociology, I took

a course in Ethnomethodology

556

from Bud Mehan at that time.

557

And then by chance I met

Lucy Suchman at that time.

558

I had connections with people at

Xerox PARC, and was influenced

559

by some people there, and that

got me thinking about things.

560

And then I was back in Dublin working

on a conference where I had an influence

561

of a sociologist friend of mine.

562

Uh, and she was much interested in

the larger, kind of more, Socialist

563

understanding of science and technology,

and it opened my mind, it moved me

564

out of this narrow refrain that I had

been having, but it opened me out to a

565

larger literature on the sociology of

science and on, um, kind of theories

566

of, of human labor and practice.

567

And then I had the PD,

Participative Design Influence.

568

I met some people, Morten Kyng, and

Pelle Ehn, and Susanne Bødker, and they,

569

And then they kindly invited me to come

with them because they were interested

570

in making a link with the San Diego

HCI, this this emerging HCI community.

571

So I went there, and then while they were

there, they had this link with the new,

572

Rank Xerox EuroPARC group that was set

up in Cambridge in England and so I went

573

there and then I made contact with some

of the sociologists there, Christian Heath

574

and David Randall and Richard Harper and

other people who were, uh, connected.

575

Geri: So all of this, you've just

talked about lots of travel and

576

living in lots of different places.

577

What's been, can you reflect on that

just as a, I don't know, from a lived

578

experience perspective in terms of putting

down roots or not, or what was the costs

579

of, of needing or doing all those moves or

the advantages of doing all those moves?

580

Liam: A A couple of big ones.

581

Let's see, the first

move outside of Ireland.

582

I mean Ireland in the, in the late 60s,

early 70s was still, uh, very closed in

583

certain ways and I just felt it's still

very, in certain ways, I felt limiting and

584

limited and I wanted to explore elsewhere.

585

It's not, you know, I had this idea of

if I stayed in Ireland, so at that time a

586

lot of people did, they did their training

one country and got and got positions.

587

Geri: A lot of people do, yeah.

588

Liam: but I was curious, I wanted to

learn, I wanted to, Visit other countries.

589

I, I hadn't visited Ireland.

590

Wasn't in the EU at this stage, you

know, it was, so we were traveling

591

to the continent was a big thing.

592

I didn't have much travel

at all, so I wanted to go to

593

an English speaking country.

594

Um, well, because I didn't think

it'd be easy to, it wasn't easy to

595

go to Europe at that time or work in

France or Italy without the language.

596

So

597

I had to definitely felt, okay, I'll go

away for the, and then when I got there.

598

There were two types of people

I met who left from Ireland.

599

One group were people who hated Ireland,

like they'd gotten fed up and really

600

said, I'm never going back, I want to go

wherever, US, Australia, wherever, away.

601

And there were other people who

were very definitely going away for

602

some training, but they definitely

were coming back, you know.

603

I didn't fit in either category,

I was just, wasn't sure, I

604

didn't have a fixed view.

605

So I went and then I got the option to

go to the States for a year, I did that

606

in Minnesota, then I got the I came back

and did a little bit of consulting in

607

Ireland, just briefly, in between things.

608

Then I got the chance for the post

doc in California, so I moved there.

609

Geri: So you never had this career

plan from the sounds of it, it's been

610

really in the moment and responding

to opportunities or taking advantage

611

of opportunities as they rose.

612

Liam: Yeah, yeah, that's um, Yeah, I

didn't actually, you know, at the end

613

of my PhD, I was, it ended up, thesis

was still connected with this earlier

614

sort of issue around representations

cognitivist models and that.

615

I didn't feel happy doing that.

616

continuing with that sort of stuff.

617

So I, in a sense, had a bit of

a dilemma about what to do next.

618

So I was, in a sense, fortunate because

of this HCI interest that, and the

619

connections that my supervisor still had.

620

So I had sort of entry points into some

good places, and then I got taken up.

621

I had the option, actually, of going to

work in an office automation consulting

622

firm in Toronto or move to San Diego.

623

Geri: Somehow I can't see

you in an office automation.

624

Liam: It's an interesting group.

625

It was the former Bell Northern

lab that Don Tapscott set up.

626

But anyway, so I moved to California

and then I did something else.

627

I actually stopped and

went traveling in Asia.

628

So one of the funny little anecdotes is

if you look at the user centered, the

629

system design book, and you look at the

front, at the list of contributors, you

630

have all these people, you know, MIT

Media Lab, uh, Xerox PARC, University

631

of California, San Diego, you know.

632

And then there's one address that's not a

university address, and it's 16 Fortfield

633

Avenue, Ternier, Dublin 6, Ireland.

634

That's my parent address, it's my home.

635

Because at that stage, when the book came

out in book 86, I was traveling in Asia,

636

Geri: You're a peripatetic academic.

637

Liam: I intended to spend a couple

of months, I thought, but I ended up

638

spending almost two years on the road.

639

outside of academia.

640

So my CV has this one

line which says on leave.

641

Geri: So did that impact, well it

doesn't sound like it impacted, you know.

642

Liam: It was difficult I mean

actually a lot of my friends

643

said you can't you can't stop.

644

Geri: I know, there's that

sense that you can't stop.

645

Liam: was difficult to be honest arriving

I arrived back in I moved to Aarhus in

646

January in 2000 sorry 19 88, and I've been

basically on the road from July of 85.

647

Geri: Wow.

648

Liam: So, and I came back into a

research group into living in a small

649

apartment and into another country

where, yes, my work colleagues, we spoke

650

English, but it was another country.

651

They don't, they actually

speak Danish, I guess.

652

Um, That was, it took a while, yeah.

653

It was, was, was a bit

a at a personal level.

654

It was, uh, it was, uh, ended up having

You know, some interesting good times, you

655

know, but it was, yeah, it was not easy.

656

I was, but I've always been

a bit of a loner, I guess.

657

So I, I'm never really certain about,

as other people who know me as I'm

658

not so good at making decisions.

659

At the same time, I actually

made some of these rather big

660

Geri: Yeah, big, yeah.

661

Liam: where I fell into them.

662

Geri: I mean, one of them, you

stopped working formally, would

663

you say retired a few years ago, and

you've also had an interesting last

664

couple of years, since then as well.

665

Liam: well, okay, I skip over after,

or quickly, I was a couple of years

666

in Aarhus, but I wasn't sure if that

was a computer science department, and

667

again, I still have this feeling that I

wasn't quite sure if that was the home

668

I should have, because I felt in terms

of the profile of what people should

669

be, even though there was space there

for the systems development group, it

670

still was a bit of an issue for me.

671

So

672

Geri: So what people should be in

terms of what a good academic, a CV

673

looks like, is that what you mean?

674

Liam: in the context of computer science,

being a member, being a senior faculty

675

member in computer science, and what

kinds of courses you should be teaching.

676

My interest over the years has even

moved further away from, in a sense,

677

the details of the technology per se,

and more into kind of understanding

678

the practices and the, so I guess,

and the . sociologist, sociological,

679

anthropological kind of interest.

680

So, I'm, it just felt, yeah, I, in a

sense as I said, I, I, I felt at one

681

stage I would like to try to create a

new sort of discipline that some sort

682

of media and informatics or social

informatics, although the way in which

683

some of that media work is gone, I

would question a little bit, I think

684

it's become, or some of it I don't

find, so it's become too text based

685

and too removed from actual practice.

686

So it's really, where are the

home, where was your home, you

687

know, one's intellectual home.

688

Because it's interesting, like if

I look at certain committees now,

689

and there's an arts and humanities

group, there's a social science

690

group, there's a engineering [And

you can relate to all of them]

691

I can relate to all of and them,

And in actual fact, some of the

692

things I do and some of the people I

know or even have worked with would

693

be in each of those categories.

694

But if I go up for review by any one

of those, they they look at me and say,

695

you're not a psychologist, you're not

publishing in psychology, you're not

696

a sociologist, you're not a computer

scientist, you're not a media theorist.

697

And so in that sense, there's a

698

potential price in that . And I think

it happens with new interdisciplinary

699

fields, so like, we've had that discussion

a bit more recently about CSCW, that

700

certain faculty people feel that it's,

in their, younger people, that it's a

701

problem because of, like, in terms of

if they say they do CSCW, it doesn't

702

necessarily help in their promotions

committee or whatever, and I understand

703

that, that, that problem, that on the

one hand, Some of these areas are where

704

interesting things are happening, but

it really is maybe a bleeding edge.

705

That it's leading edge in the

sense of it's bringing together new

706

areas and there is sometimes a real

buzz and some real energy in the

707

confluence of these different areas.

708

But there also is a price to pay

709

Geri: Yeah.

710

Liam: It can be difficult to get

acceptance or there may be new journals

711

appearing which you can get into but

then those don't get ranked highly

712

and so your, uh, your publication

channels are reduced and so yeah, it's

713

Geri: So what would you say to a

younger academic now who's dealing

714

with some of those questions?

715

Liam: Well at the end of the road at

the end of the road, like, you know, if

716

you look back on, on your life, I think

it's maybe hard to consider this when

717

you're in your late 20s or early 30s

and doing your post doc or trying to get

718

your first position and get tenure and,

I mean, the pressures are, I do believe

719

that the pressures on young academics

are ferocious these days, much worse than

720

it used to be, and there used to be more

space for people to do their own thing.

721

There were, in different countries,

people had different, used to be

722

in some of the northern European

countries, there was more scope

723

for people to carve their own path.

724

But I mean, there's this relentless

pressure worldwide, also in terms of a

725

homogenization of programs, a reduction

in what counts as good science, good work.

726

Um, and I think this is really flawed

and problematic and that it tends to end

727

up coming to a least common denominator.

728

Of course there was some

shoddy work done at the edges.

729

I'm not denying that.

730

But the point is that there's also new

ideas and, and kind of ways of thinking

731

about problems that really, if we don't

allow that, if we don't give people

732

some space to think outside the box,

like we're going to be stuck in the box.

733

it's and it's a very small, I

believe it's a very small box.

734

So I, in terms of advice to young people,

I think it's very difficult and I, I don't

735

want to belittle the problem that's there.

736

And I haven't really, to be honest, I

haven't given enough thought to this.

737

I mean, I, what I've tried to do when

I had some control or influence myself

738

and I had some support or resources was

to create a space and I used to say,

739

this is probably a rather weak um, line,

but I wanted to try and create a space

740

where we could have interesting people

and give them some freedom to do things.

741

Now, some of that turned

out not to be very good.

742

Some of it turned out not to work.

743

Some of it turned out to

be really interesting.

744

And I think, I hope, that some of

the people who, when I did have the

745

lab in Limerick, the Interaction

Design Center, and with some of my

746

colleagues there, we did create a

space where I think we had, we had fun.

747

We, not just that it wasn't a sense

of being, um, selfish, make ourselves

748

but we tried to make a difference.

749

We tried to do something.

750

We tried to create linkages.

751

We brought in people.

752

I had people coming from

communication and media studies.

753

I had, um, One of my former

people, like my crew here.

754

We're speaking at the ECSCW conference.

755

There's now Professor Luigina Cio;lfi.

756

She came in from communication

and media studies from Siena.

757

I mean, we had people

from different countries.

758

We had, we had an architect, Parag,

who came from India, somebody

759

who was a qualified architect.

760

We had people from software engineering.

761

We had people from art and design school.

762

We started a new master's in

interactive media and many of the

763

students came in from the School

of Art and Design and that was

764

really influential and interesting

to have those people in our group.

765

So, we created an interesting space.

766

But, in a sense, because I wasn't,

and this is, I guess, my fault as

767

the leader, I wasn't focused enough

or determined enough, it, it was,

768

We probably didn't, within the

organization, we didn't push enough

769

on the policy or, or politics front.

770

We created a space and as long as I

brought in money, we could keep that space

771

because we were basically self sufficient.

772

We, most of the people in the

group are, we, we were paying

773

on grants soft money Yeah.

774

We didn't have many faculty positions.

775

And once that tied up near the end,

when I started having some health

776

issues and I became on that, I was

the only senior faculty member.

777

We'd wanted to other junior faculty,

but it, it was difficult wasn't seen

778

as strategic within the structure.

779

So it just shrank

780

Geri: it just Yeah, so the politics

is important, but it would be

781

exhausting as well, and it's always

decisions and trade offs, isn't

782

it, where you devote your energy?

783

Liam: It is.

784

Yeah.

785

And I, well, I think one of the

things is that you've got to, it's

786

really important to try and have

collaborators, whether they're in

787

the same faculty or not, or although

788

it can be difficult within the university

system, you may have good collaborators

789

in different faculties, but the problem

is they are, ultimately subservient

790

to their head of department or their

faculty and it can be problematic.

791

So, although there's a lot of lip

talk about interdisciplinarity and

792

creating new interdisciplinary research

institutes, you really need to have

793

a core group and the problem is that

we didn't, we never got critical

794

mass in terms of interdisciplinarity.

795

You know, regular faculty in that

group to make it sustainable.

796

So there are real issues.

797

But when you're struggling to actually

just do something here and on year,

798

it's also difficult to have that longer

term plan or to spend the time in the

799

politics side of it to try to work out.

800

But I,

801

Geri: You're making me think that in an

ideal world, so like what, what, what I

802

like that you did was just recognizing

that you didn't fit any neat silos,

803

but created your own and brought

people together and built something.

804

Liam: Mm-Hmm,

805

Geri: But it's also recognizing the

mix of skills you need to, to do that

806

sustainable long term perspective of it.

807

And like, I, I know I'm

not very good at politics.

808

So, you know, if I want to do something

about, I would need to think about that.

809

Bringing someone in who would, who's

going to be good at that politics

810

and external facing things and

811

Liam: Yeah, exactly.

812

I mean, I was just talking to another

senior person about this recently,

813

just at this conference, and I actually

was saying to this person that maybe

814

they should think about, yeah, hiring

somebody on the PR communications or

815

this side of it, you know, or to have a

chief operating officer or somebody to.

816

The problem, of course, is how you justify

that on soft money in your own project.

817

it can be difficult to actually

get full salary for somebody.

818

Geri: But recognizing that we

now, to operate in these sorts

819

of environments, and to do the

interesting research at these cross

820

disciplinary edges, we need more than

just good academic research skills.

821

Liam: Sure, sure.

822

I think that, yeah, I mean, To be honest,

I mean, I don't, I never really felt I

823

wanted to be a director, manager sort of

person and near the end, like with several

824

projects and I couldn't myself be involved

in all the projects and it became like you

825

felt a loss of, and that's actually what's

made me feel it's time to, I need to step

826

out of this because we were still doing

things and we had projects, but I was

827

becoming more and more removed and some of

the personal interests I had were not the

828

things that were being funded So we had to

go after funding to support the people But

829

they were in some cases a bit more removed

from what I found really interesting

830

And so I it started a realization

that Here I was working on a couple of

831

things, which I was doing on my own, in

my own time, that I found motivating.

832

One of those was about forgetting

and remembering and forgetting.

833

It was a topic that I was quite

fascinated by, but I didn't have

834

the time and the space to actually

package it as a research proposal.

835

Geri: And that was the thing

that was really exciting and fun.

836

Liam: At time there were these other

projects which I needed to be more

837

hands on working with, and I wasn't.

838

I was kind of missing from my group during

that, and I realized, no, this is not,

839

Geri: it's not where your energy was.

840

Liam: Yeah, it's, and also I had some,

at that time I had some health issues

841

were just taking my energy away, so,

because I lived a lot of my life, I've

842

been, yeah, relationships, and I, I

actually probably, sacrificed too much.

843

I kind of got wrapped up

in this academic world.

844

In other words, of course, I

met a lot of really good people.

845

And that there were people who are not

just my academic colleagues, but also

846

were social friends and collaborators

over several years around Europe that I

847

still value highly, but it's not, they're

not actually there necessarily when you

848

go back to where is home and suddenly

what is home and That became a question.

849

I was, you can, there's a dilemma

sometimes, you move so often.

850

I talk about that sometimes

with people who've moved.

851

I went back to Ireland, yes, but I never,

in some ways a part of me has never really

852

fully settled back there And also I'm not

a really part of the establishment there.

853

Geri: In the academic the academic

sense or in the local community sense?

854

Liam: in the academic sense or in the

local community because I, I don't.

855

While I have had partnerships, I haven't

really settled, and I don't have children,

856

I don't have, in terms of embedding

yourself in the local environment, so.

857

so I've, and I've been away a lot, so,

as time goes on, you suddenly realize

858

that we are still, although we talk

about nomadic life, I mean, there's an

859

element also in which we're still, we

still need place, we need groundedness.

860

and it can be difficult.

861

It can be difficult and balancing

these things as you go through

862

your career can be quite difficult.

863

Geri: I'm sort of connecting that

to what your, what your theme of

864

your own research is, which is about

being human, you know, at the core.

865

We are people

866

Liam: I mean, At the core.

867

Part of it for me, in terms of

moving places, was to learn.

868

You know, like I'm, as I said, it's not,

that I have this theory and I'm trying

869

to beat everybody over the head with it.

870

But what I do have is a

stance, a perspective.

871

and we can use the term human centered

design, although I, for other, just like

872

I don't like some of the other labels, I

don't particularly like that label, for

873

reasons I might go into another time.

874

But, it did, it was an attempt to

at least say, my interest is around,

875

people and the world in which they live,

which and the ecosystem in which they

876

are in, which includes other people,

artifacts, the workplace, their physical

877

neighborhood, you know, the environment.

878

So in that sense, I'm interested in that

whole ecosystem and systems thinking.

879

I mean, that's why I'm interested in

going back and trying to bring in some

880

aspects from even earlier literature.

881

What are there still things of relevance

in the socio technical literature, even

882

in some of the cybernetics literature,

second order cybernetics especially, which

883

included the observer in the process,

not just about the technical system.

884

Yeah, so it's a, as I said, I

think my, role is, as I said,

885

not as some visionary visionary.

886

I don't think, or somebody who is

a theorist actually, but, somebody

887

maybe who in a sense was trying to

ask questions and, and and trying to

888

raise questions which at the time maybe

within the field, certainly within the

889

computing field, were not being asked

very much and so they were at least

890

trying to open the door, maybe that's a

way to put it as a for opening a door.

891

Letting a chink of light

into other work, and

892

Geri: And doors are connections.

893

Liam: Yeah, making connections.

894

Like if people are curious, the last,

that little Forgetting paper, which

895

I actually quite like because it's

appeared in Co Design, the journal,

896

in 2006, I'm not sure, but it's called

Forgetting is a Feature, Not a Bug.

897

The main message was really just saying

that this fascination about the capture

898

of things, video recording, SenseCam,

Microsoft SenseCam, this idea of you know,

899

suddenly we're going to record thousands

of images and we're going to record every

900

phone call and every commu Somehow that

this was in a, like going to increase

901

our awareness of the world and our kind

of our memory of ourselves and whatever.

902

There seemed to me a fundamental lack

of understanding in these visions,

903

these bizarre visions, techno visions,

of what it was to be human, what

904

it was to be a person in the world.

905

How remembering is an active process, it's

not a computer recording of something.

906

How forgetting is an integral

part of our human activity.

907

How social forgetting is also an important

part And of course It's important we

908

don't forget certain things, I mean,

or we'll repeat mistakes of the past.

909

But there's a sense in which forgetting,

to a point, as a, thinking about it as

910

a design issue, that there are times

when we don't want to be recorded.

911

And to think about that as a design

space, so it's not for or against a

912

particular capture model, it's to try and

create scenarios that are believable in

913

the sense of what it means to be human.

914

And when I read in the early days, say,

of ambient intelligence, which is, I think

915

of as the second or third coming of AI,

there's this notion of us being surrounded

916

by these intelligent artifacts that would

do things for us, that would be agents for

917

us, and human like that we would discuss.

918

It seemed to me that it was like a

very strange, perfect world that didn't

919

make any sense and it was really in

the context of that that I started to

920

developing this issue around forgetting.

921

But the other thing I wanted to say

about that article is, again, it's

922

not a standard scientific article,

but it's a walk through a space,

923

and in that walk I kind of try to

link to history, to philosophy, to

924

psychology, to sociology, to law.

925

I mean, because people have talked

about issues around forgetting and

926

memory and history in all these areas,

and I believe that making us aware of

927

some of these nuances might make us

come up with more believable scenarios.

928

And another area that I would mention

just briefly would be in the health

929

area where again, or the intelligent

home assisted living and some of these

930

areas where again, I think we too

often start with a piece of technology.

931

And thankfully now in the last few

years, I think we're starting to

932

get the message across . I talk

933

paper on, uh, in the interactions,

934

...

Geri: I'll put a link to all of these on the web page.

935

So Liam, any comments in closing?

936

Liam: In a way, when I look back at at

some of the things I've done, I think

937

I've been very fortunate just to happen

to be kind of in spaces and places where

938

things were changing and I happened to be

interested in those ages and I've had some

939

bleeding at those edges, but actually most

of the time I've actually been able to

940

have a good view and, and to actually walk

with people, really interesting people.

941

[I've learned so interesting

yeah, I've and places].

942

I feel so fortunate in in the colleagues

I've had and in, in the journey I've

943

had with people kind of, and I've

learned so much over these years, but.

944

At the same time, I think there's a

core there, which is always that I

945

started out with this interest and

concern with people and their world,

946

and it's still, that's still there.

947

It's just such a richer framework

and understanding I have of

948

that now than when I started

949

But, uh, the, and maybe some of it, in

terms of any message to anybody or what

950

they might find of interest, is that.

951

In some of the bits and pieces

I've written, actually a lot of

952

them are kind of essays, really.

953

They're kind of perspectives

or positionings.

954

One of my favorite words is,

two of my favorite words are

955

framing and perspectives.

956

And that's in some of the

work in design around framing.

957

What is a problem?

958

Problem formulation is very important

to me because I think very often

959

we start to solve a problem without

knowing what the problem is.

960

It's the wrong problem.

961

So I think a lot of the time

having a look at how you

962

understand what it is you're doing.

963

What is the frame you're in?

964

Are you comfortable with it?

965

Is it, is there, does it seem that it's

actually suitable for what you're doing?

966

So I think Some people find that at times

refreshing that they've, maybe, some of

967

the things open a little vista or open

that little door into a space maybe

968

they hadn't thought about and I'm happy

if, to hear if it encourages people not

969

to follow me in a particular path but

rather to actually follow their own path.

970

In um, In the sense of actually

exploring something that maybe is not

971

necessarily approved by your immediate

superior or whatever, but that is what

972

the road you feel you want to travel.

973

Geri: Yep, yep.

974

Liam: So, go do it.

975

Geri: Go do it, yes, yep.

976

And so, thank you.

977

And, just in terms of influence, I was

reminded then that there was a book

978

some years ago, Where we were asked to

contribute a chapter that reflected what

979

was really influential in our work.

980

And the paper that I wrote about

was the paper that you and Kjeld

981

wrote, in the early days of CSCW.

982

And how that, that's been

really influential in setting

983

my own career trajectory off.

984

So, I personally have

a lot to thank you for.

985

And just thank you for your time now

986

Liam: And it's interesting, to try

to articulate a vision because at that

987

time we had seen some work in CSCW

which seemed to rather than opening

988

out the space, the possibilities of

the technology, was starting to embed

989

within the technology protocols for, for

instance, embedding social protocols in

990

the technology now at the group level.

991

And so to, to me this was.

992

anathema to the idea

of what CSCW should be.

993

And then the interest in trying

to say, we're not talking, we're

994

not starting with the technology.

995

So we parse CSCW from right

to left, not left to right.

996

We try to understand work, cooperative

work, supporting it, and then we

997

talk about the role of technology.

998

Geri: So this is a perfect example

of your framing and perspective

999

Liam: Yeah, thank you.

01:05:23,229 --> 01:05:28,909

, I, I think we're, both Kjeld and I are,

are very happy to see that the paper,

01:05:28,909 --> 01:05:32,669

although it was published initially

in this obscure brand new journal.

01:05:32,804 --> 01:05:34,674

of CSCW.

01:05:35,304 --> 01:05:39,034

the journal which we actually

started, um, along with some others.

01:05:39,774 --> 01:05:44,764

But, uh, it's really nice to see that

people still find that, it gives a

01:05:45,594 --> 01:05:51,064

position and it articulates a position

on a set of issues which people still

01:05:51,484 --> 01:05:52,529

Geri: still find relevant.

01:05:52,859 --> 01:05:53,099

Yeah.

01:05:54,059 --> 01:05:58,339

Which is also a good story about

starting the new journal, new

01:05:58,339 --> 01:06:03,049

conference, new interdisciplinary

research area that's was new then and

01:06:03,049 --> 01:06:05,089

just still exists and is more mainstream.

01:06:05,089 --> 01:06:07,309

And that papers can

still get cited from it.

01:06:07,549 --> 01:06:07,879

Liam: Mm-Hmm.

01:06:08,389 --> 01:06:10,009

hmm.

01:06:10,009 --> 01:06:10,279

Yep.

01:06:11,234 --> 01:06:15,964

Geri: So Liam, thank you and

wishing you all the very best.

01:06:19,324 --> 01:06:22,834

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01:06:22,834 --> 01:06:25,974

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01:06:26,034 --> 01:06:26,214

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