Start a conversation with, “do you think a hotdog is a sandwich?” and see the playful reaction. 

Catherine Price is an advocate of bringing people together in a playful manner whether it’s a conversation with a stranger, a dinner party, at work or even Zoom.

Catherine helps people scroll less, live more, and have fun. 

She is a science journalist, speaker, teacher, consultant, and the author of several. 

Catherine is also the founder of ScreenLifeBalance.com, a resource hub dedicated to helping people create more intentional relationships with technology and reconnect with what really matters to them in life. 

Things to consider

• Create deeper and engaging conversations with people by asking more interesting openers
• Bantering with people is a form of play
• There's often an assumption that only certain activities qualify as play.
• Play and fun aren’t an activity they are an attitude or a feeling
• Fun and playfulness actually bring us closer together  as human beings.
• If you do have to use willpower to keep doing some activity that's being marketed to you as play, then it's not play anymore.
• Fun is any moment when three states coincide; playfulness, and connection and flow. This can definitely happen at work. Even on Zoom!
• Rules and structure can give people permission to be playful in an unexpected context.

Links

• Catherine Price Website
• The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker
• The Power of Fun: How to Feel Alive Again, by Catherine Price
• How to Break Up With Your Phone: The 30-Day Plan to Take Back Your Life, by Catherine Price
• Vitamania: How Vitamins Revolutionized the Way We Think About Food, by Catherine Price

Get in touch!

Make Work Play

Playfilled

Hello.

Welcome to the show.

I'm Zuki Stewart from Playfield, A startup helping organizations to enable

everyone to rediscover their creativity through playful wonder and serendipity

And I'm Lucy Taylor from Make Work Play an organization on a

mission to use the power of play to unlock potential and possibility.

Together we are.

Why Play Works, the podcast that speaks to people radically reshaping work as play.

Today I'm speaking with Catherine Price, an award-winning

science writer, speaker, workshop leader, consultant, and the author

of books, including The Power of Fun, how to Feel Alive Again, and

How to Break Up With Your Phone, the 30 Day Plan to take back your life.

On a mission to help people scroll less, live more, and have fun.

Catherine is also the founder of screen life balance.com, a resource hub dedicated

to helping people create more intense.

Relationships with technology and reconnect with what really

matters to them in life.

Kevin Ru of the New York Times once referred to Catherine

as the Mary Condo of Brains.

as a speaker, she has presented in their workshops for

companies and organizations including Ted.

South by Southwest hired Intel Penguin, random House, Salesforce,

and HubSpot, among many others.

Catherine's Ted Talk on Fun was the second most viewed Ted talk for all of

2022, and in what she describes as a life highlight, she once led a virtual workshop

on Joy with the mighty Oprah Winfrey.

You can find Catherine's journalistic work in a number of

publications, including the Best American Science writing, the New York Times,

and the Washington Post Magazine.

She's also the host of Advances in Care, a podcast featuring

cutting edge work being done by the doctors at New York Presbyterian.

podcast.

Today we talk about simple ways to spark playful curiosity, how to

seek out playmates, and the power of asking different questions.

So Catherine, tell me about what does the word play you?

I think play is actually a really hard word to define, especially

for adults because it feels so foreign.

But when I think of the word play, I think what comes to mind is a feeling

of freedom and a feeling of not caring too much about the outcome of things.

So the attempt.

Just to let go of perfectionism.

I think it's very much tied in with fun, but this feeling really of not

being self-conscious, letting yourself be your true self and doing things

just for the sake of doing them.

Um, that's I think what what comes up for me.

I think it's so important.

I think play is absolutely essential for people of all ages.

And one thing I've been thinking a lot.

To myself, is that in terms of relationships and friendships, the

ones that I enjoy the most are the ones that have some element of play in them.

You know, for me, like bantering is a form of play and if someone can't banter

with me, then it's gonna be difficult for me to be friends with them, cuz

that I think is a main way that I play.

And I love

I craving.

Something to interactions.

I, I'm, I would love that injection of, of play as you talk about.

the, interplay, not a given it's not a interaction.

No, and I think it's so much more enjoyable when that happens.

I don't know if you've read The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker

It last January life actually.

together and I've never felt so seen by my friend who

Yes.

Well, I mentioned that book cuz Priya Parker is an expert, as you

know, in the art of, well, the art of Gathering and bringing people together.

And she talks a lot about.

How the best, I think the quote is like, the best gatherings are those, the, the

gatherings that Sparkle and Flourish, as she says, are the ones that have

some kind of intentionality in them.

That the host actually took the time to think, how am I gonna

make guests feel comfortable?

And one of the way, and, and to interact with each other in a way that doesn't

just feel like normal small talk or you kind of know where the conversation's

going from the moment it begins, and you're kind of both enduring it.

And she talks about the importance of having things to

talk about and how to inject.

Is what I've heard described as playful curiosity into a social gathering.

So that's something I've actually tried to do myself when we've hosted gatherings

ever since I read that book, is to give people, I think of it as like almost

like a handhold for a conversation.

Like it's a rock climbing wall.

Like something to hang off of or something to bounce, right?

Like to bounce off of.

Because there's certain people you interact with where it's kind of like a

conversational brick wall, you know, where you say something and then it just dies.

And I find that to be so exhausting and always think it's like my fault.

But I think it's that we need to actually get in the practice

of asking interesting questions.

All this is to say that one thing that we've started, my husband and I

experimenting with is when we do host parties, like giving people an icebreaking

question to ask, even if it's so.

Really simple.

Like we have a fall party that we host every year in this

community garden near our house.

And so I normally have people wear name tags, which might seem, I don't know,

some people are like, uh, name tags.

But I'm like, you know what?

We don't see everyone that frequently and they don't know each other.

And it actually makes it easier.

But then I'll also have people put something on the name tag that's

like, for example, tell me what's your favorite thing about fall?

And then people will write their name and this little thing that's

their favorite thing about fall.

And just that enables people to have a conversation that.

Beyond the normal kind of, oh, how do you know the hosts?

How long have you lived in the city?

Oh, you've got kids?

How old are they?

Oh, where do they go to school?

Oh, I'm like, oh my God, shoot me.

Like, it's just so boring.

But actually I've been thinking a lot about playful curiosity and,

and how to ask those questions.

Um, because of this fun intervention project I've been doing, which

I could tell you more about.

But one of the things that I did during these workshops, Uh, this

group that I've been working with that they prompted us to do is to come up

with playful conversation starters.

All of this is to say that I've started a lot of conversations recently

by asking people if they think a hotdog is a sandwich and Exactly.

It's a very good litmus test also for who you could be friends with.

Cuz if they don't have the reaction you just had, it's probably not gonna work.

But it's like, or there was one that was like, do you think that your cat would

kill you in your sleep If it could, right.

We were just talking about Bria Parker and, you know,

posing amazing big questions.

Then you're like, it's a hotdog or sandwich.

And I was like, that's what I'm talking about.

Like that we went, we went straight there.

But what a great, oh, it's amazing to meet another fan of book, which I

found and it's just such a timely I love the example of your full party.

Um, you know, what holds me back?

I'm anxious that if I were to host a, a, you know, dinner, a party, go out there

on a bit of a limit, say, you know what?

Actually, I'm gonna throw out some some playful questions, or whatever

it is, and just see where it goes.

And fear that people are just not gonna be down for party What?

What's been your, I mean, maybe that's people I know, but, but

what's been your experience?

The people, and I know Preeth was like, wow, your terms?

Do you find in Hi, are people willing to engage in that?

Does it free up the experience

I think it, you know, probably depends on the person,

but for the most part, I think most people are really relieved when you

give them something to talk about or again, when you throw them, it's like

pitching a, throwing a pitch in a game of softball or something, like you're

giving them something to respond to.

and it takes the pressure off and people like answering questions, especially if

it's about themselves, . So I actually think for most people it feels like

a gift and then you actually then have something fun to talk about and

just go in a different direction.

But it doesn't need to be as overtly silly as those two questions I just posed.

There was actually someone who came up to me recently and said, what?

What have you been thinking about recently?

Which I was like, Ooh, this person was a professor, so I would think

he's in a theater kind of person.

But I was like, well, that's really interesting.

And I was like, I've been thinking a lot about connection recently.

That's what I've been thinking about.

And we immediately, Transcended just this, how have you been?

You know, as someone I don't know that well, or it's just acquaintances,

but it immediately brought the conversation to this deeper, more

enjoyable, thought provoking level.

So I think you gotta read the situation, obviously, but in many cases people

are actually really relieved when you give them something to talk about.

that, believe I can't be the person Oh, I'm

so glad to have art gathering

Oh no.

I was also just gonna say, um, I think another way to get people to connect

in that way, in a more playful way is to have experiences with each other.

So even if it's getting people to help with some aspect of, you

know, making dinner, if you're having a dinner party or just.

Doing something together in general.

You know, so often companies in particular will just have happy hours, which is

like such a weird thing cuz it's just inviting people to spend more time at

work, like drinking together, which is not really a great idea in many ways.

Instead of actually having a shared experience because when people

are doing something or learning something together, then they, they

interact in a totally different way.

I think that's why escape rooms were so popular, at least before the.

I love it when Like or used to feel like experts environment or

freeing like, whoa, I it's not quite what you just said around learning book around.

Um, she

Mm-hmm.

and no one serves act just servitude generosity

What would they I dunno.

I just love that small act and I think that's just a small example of to have,

Well, that I've forgotten that detail in her book.

But yeah, that actually reminds me of something that you just touched on, which

is like feeling seen when you actually read Priya Parker's book, because I think

that that fundamentally is what we all want is to be seen and that actually.

These little small acts of caring or playfulness or just being actually

inquisitive about a person, even if it's their thoughts on whether a hotdog

is the sandwich, but something where people actually feel appreciated and

engaged, that's really quite meaningful.

I think that's one of the biggest powers of play and fun, is actually

helping us connect as human beings and feel like someone else cares.

around kind zoom, fast that's how I

And it was so funny in that context cuz it, it happened

when I was at a concert of my guitar.

My guitar teacher had a show and we were at this show together and he

turns and asked me that question.

I said, I've been thinking a lot about connection.

And within like 30 seconds we discovered that we both really love swing dancing.

which I never would've come up if it was like, how was your day?

And then had a really fun moment where it was like, wait a second, why don't we

do like, why don't we dance to this song?

And then it was like, you know, this person I don't know well at all.

And it was just a really, really nice moment of connection that came from

that different question that he asked.

So I think you just never know where it might lead, but it's

certainly gonna lead to somewhere more interesting than typical small.

talked about what play and I'm wondering Your own you

like to I don't do you recognize

I see both.

I was really shy and introverted as a child, so some of the ways I

play now are not like right now.

I would say one of my.

Forms of play is just bantering with people and, um, having

playful conversations.

And so when I was a kid, that was not what I was doing cause

I wouldn't talk to anybody

So that's changed.

But I would also say though, that physical movement has been a form of play for me

and that has been true for my whole life.

Just, you know, love me to do cartwheels and just use my body like dancing.

Um, so that's been pretty consistent.

And then right now, probably my biggest form of play that doesn't involve.

Conversation is through music, um, which is related to childhood in the sense that

I learned, started learning how to play the piano when I was around five or six.

But actually it's very interesting for me to reflect that it wasn't really

a form of play in the way that it is now for me as a child, because I was

always doing it alone, not for recitals or anything, like, there wasn't like a

purpose behind learning music for me.

It was for the sake of learning it.

So there was that aspect of, I guess, an inherent bit of playfulness there,

but, When I started actually getting together with friends and playing music

together, the experience was totally different from playing the music alone.

And that dynamic and that feeling of creating music with other people is one

of my most treasured forms of play now.

But it switches really quickly if there's a goal to it, which

I've been thinking a lot about.

So if you put a goal to it, then it's not as playful and

it's not as much fun for me.

It has to have this element.

Doing it for the sake of that.

And lots of laughter, look like

Yeah, I think that that definitely you can bring

playfulness to anything though, and I think that's something that we as

adults often forget too, is that you think play has to be separate from

work or that play doesn't have a space at work that's almost inappropriate

or irresponsible to be playful.

Also, adults just tend to assume that.

You know, when I talk about fun and I talk about playfulness, people

tense up cuz they're like, no, I'm a responsible, serious adult.

I, I'm, you know, play it for kids and it often, There's often an assumption

that only certain activities qualify as play, that the play is in the activity.

And I think the same thing is true for fun.

People think it's an activity that's fun, but really both of those things

are the attitude and the feeling.

They result from certain things and both play.

I, I believe that playfulness is a component of fun, but I think that

both fun and playfulness actually bring us together closer as human beings.

And anytime you do that, you're.

More efficient at whatever you're doing, you're also gonna enjoy yourself more.

I mean, it just, everything kind of builds on itself.

It leads in a very positive direction.

I was also gonna say in terms of, well, one way I think that play can

really help us is that if you can convince your brain that it's playing,

it's gonna stick with things longer.

Which is a kind of a separate subject if you want to talk

about fun and, and play at work.

But it's really interesting to me that when you're playing, one of

the characteristics I feel about play is you don't wanna stop.

It's a activity that is very intrinsically motivating.

You don't have to use willpower to keep playing.

If you do have to use willpower to keep doing some activity

that's being marketed to you as play, then it's not play anymore.

, you know?

So if you can tap into the feeling of play when you're doing so, Work related.

Well, that's wonderful.

I mean, there have been, I remember looking up a study where they were

measuring how long kids were willing to wait for something, and in the control

group, they were just told to wait.

And then they had another group where they were told to pretend

that they were guards at a, I don't know where, if it was a factory or

a prison, what they were guarding.

They were guarding something.

But the idea being it was a game and those kids were able to wait for longer and,

you know, push off delayed gratification because it was in the framework of a game.

So you just said about how, to have as, as Work and And

But do you in, in your amazing book, the Power of Fun, you talk about

fun flow, and possible to have true

I think it's definitely possible to have true fun at work and

really in nearly any context because it's very much the attitude you bring

to it and what you're, what feelings you're kind of pulling out or trying to.

highlights.

So one of the things I like about defining true fun is this confluence of playfulness

and connection and flow is that it makes it actually very mundane in a way.

I think one misperception people have about fun in particular is

that it only can happen if you're outside of your normal life.

Like you go on vacation to have fun.

You go out to dinner with friends to have fun.

You don't have fun at work.

But if you start to recognize that.

Fun is any moment when these three states coincide playfulness and connection and

flow, you might start to notice you're having little micro moments of that

throughout your everyday life already.

I mean, even in the passing conversation you have with someone

on the street, like you can have a moment of playful connected flow and

therefore that was a moment of fun.

And I recently witnessed how you can actually have fun on a work

Zoom call, believe it or not, guys.

Um, Yes.

So to back up, I have gotten into the habit slash tradition of doing a February

fun intervention for people in my screen life balance community, which by the way,

anyone can be a part of just sign up for my newsletter and you'll get the invites.

But the first year I did kind of just like interviews with authors whom I admired

whose work had something to do with fun.

But this year I actually teamed up with this group Momentum Labs,

and we led these live workshops about the three elements of.

Because Fundamental Labs is specifically dedicated to using purposeful play

as they talk about it, to build connection and collaboration and

productivity and creativity at work.

And it was amazing to see that it was possible over the course

of a 60 minute Zoom call to start with just a group of strangers.

And through various exercises and games that we went through together

to end up in a situation where by the end of the call, people were laughing.

They were talking about how much affection they had for their breakout room partner.

By the end of the four week fund intervention, we actually had one

woman who'd been on these calls for all four of the weeks, tell us

that she had been inspired by these calls to actually share her love

of baking with her work colleagues.

And she had been bringing in these baked goods to her office and she

said not only had that led to.

Playful conversations with her colleagues, but then she said one of her

colleagues had actually been inspired.

I don't really remember why the connection was what it was, but anyway,

this guy painted her a painting.

Because she had been baking things and she holds up this like beautiful painting that

her coworker had given her, um, just as a result of these playful interactions and,

and the fact that she was prioritizing play and fun and sharing this part

of her personal life with colleagues.

So the reason I bring that up, not only cuz it was just this lovely moment,

but also because she was now closer with this person she worked with and

was having these conversations that she never would've had otherwise.

And in that case, maybe.

The outcome was just that they had this like kind of nice personal moment.

But I've heard a lot of other stories where people actually reach out to someone

in a different department or they ask an interesting question to a colleague.

Um, that's somewhat unusual, whether it's like a playful question like the ones

we were talking about or just reaching out to someone saying, Hey, can I bounce

an idea off of you for five minutes?

And doing that, we're having this kind of openness and this playful spirit actually.

Created connections between people who didn't normally work together,

and also really open people up to brainstorming together and

finding new solutions to problems.

So all that is to say, I think that playfulness brings us

closer to other people, creates these meaningful connections.

And the more of those you have, the easier it's gonna be to collaborate

and to come up with new ideas.

And you'll also enjoy what you're working on and that makes you more

efficient, cuz you're not trying to force yourself to stick with

something if you're enjoying it.

So I think we're thinking about playing work entirely wrong.

Yeah, I completely agree.

I mean, people the flow, that, and that's what I think negative

end, fear around, people are outta

it's just so shortsighted.

So it was interesting to me to reflect.

This fun intervention and this theme of fun at work because one question I

get all the time when I talk about fun is how can we have more fun at work?

And also, is it even appropriate to have fun at work?

Lemme just call

and I normally answer in the sense of like, yes, it is possible to

have fun at work and we should be having fun at work, but it hadn't.

Doing this contra intervention made me also realize there's actually a

way to use fun and play to make work.

Effective.

So there's like two different ways.

Like you're enjoying yourself more and that itself is great, but you can actually

use some tools of fun and of playfulness in particular to help with work.

And that's something I think people have not appreciated

at all as much as they should.

So just to give two examples of things that came out of this

contra intervention workshop.

One was that we, as I alluded to earlier, brainstormed, playful question.

That we could use to get to know people in less conventional ways.

And that was fun in and of itself to brainstorm questions to ask.

But then we actually asked people if they had tried any of these things,

and a number of people said yes.

They had been using the first five minutes of meetings to ask people one of these

questions, and that as a result, not only did people kind of laugh and feel this

connection with each other more at the beginning of the meeting, but then meeting

itself ended up feeling more focus.

And more efficient and more productive and creative because

there had been this moment of playful connection at the beginning.

So it's interesting to think that not only was it kind of just fun to, like,

for example, another one of the questions is, what's the last internet rabbit hole?

You fell down?

You know, just like you just learn something interesting about your

colleague, but that the act of sharing actually creates probably a

biochemical response in our bodies that makes us, so that we're in a state

where we're actually able to be more.

So that was really interesting.

Another exercise that the Momentum Labs people introduced that I

loved was this idea of using playfulness to generate ideas.

So they had this ex exercise called Worst First, which basically was that, you

know, if you're trying to brainstorm, say the, the example one of the guys

gave is like, say you're a marketing company and you're trying to come up

with like marketing slogans for the holidays and you're trying to brainstorm.

There's a lot of pressure.

You're like worried about saying your ideas in front of the group.

What if it's bad?

Also, your brain is, your inner critic is really engaged in telling

you like, oh, that's a bad idea.

Like throwing out all these things before you even say it out loud.

So their approach instead is to challenge people, like get into small groups or

on your own and spend like five minutes trying to come up with 30 horrible

ideas, the worst ideas you possibly can.

The worst.

The worst they are the better.

And we did this as a group with the question of how.

How can you create more of a sense of bonding when you have

Zoom meetings and you're working remotely, you know, basically what

everybody's struggling with now.

And so then we put people into breakout rooms and some of the responses

people gave were just hilarious.

It was like, oh, well you should just.

, you should make it mandatory that everyone leaves their microphone on at all times.

No one gets to mute anything.

Or like everyone has to show their least suitable for work

photo with everyone on their team.

Or you know, you start every Zoom meeting by making a comment about each

person's physical appearance, right?

Like horrible ideas.

And people were laughing as they were even sharing this afterwards.

The point was not just that, that kind of like opens you up

and it's kind of funny, right?

Anything with laughter is gonna be so bonding.

But then the next step was, okay, look at this list of 30 ideas that you came

up with cuz you're trying to come up with horrible ones and ask yourself, are there

the seeds for any good ideas in there?

You know, is there anything that actually could be used?

And kind of spun in some way to make it a good idea.

And that was a really interesting process because people came away with actual

ideas and then we then compiled those ideas and voted on some of our favorites.

And what I thought was very interesting about that approach was that you're taking

a playful exercise that's fun to do.

It brought people closer, and it was enjoyable.

That's generating lots of ideas.

So you're.

Diverging, like getting bigger.

Let's big, and then you bring it back together.

So you're like, okay, let's take what we've created and bring it back and focus

and see if there's anything usable here.

So this was all within like, you know, 10 or 10 minutes or so

that we were able to come up with some solid ideas and had a good.

Good time doing it and felt closer together, even though in a very

metal level we were on a Zoom call with strangers, total strangers,

not even people who work together.

So that, I thought was just a powerful example of how play and fun can be

employed on multiple levels to make work go better and also be more enjoyable.

And I think What are your reflections on how

I think that it's been really challenging to.

Create fun and play over , over zoom.

I'm not saying though, that we really had much of that when we were all

I was gonna say, yeah, where, where are we starting?

Yeah.

I think

whatever happened in person was kind of serendipitous and not necessarily

that thought out in most circumstances.

But then when you take away a lot of that serendipity is dependent on

having interactions with people in real life where you just happen to

run into a colleague and then you.

An enjoyable conversation, or you're let go and grab coffee or

whatever it might be, those little interstitial moments in your day.

But then you take that away and suddenly, in many cases from

companies I've, I've spoken for, you know, people will say a lot of our

workforce hasn't even met each other.

Like they never knew each other in person, which is kind of a crazy place to be.

So I think you have double challenges in the virtual world.

First of all, it's just not the same as being in person.

Like there's a reason that everyone's sick of Zoom calls.

And then you also have the challenge of being potentially

in a situation where people never have met each other face to face.

But I think what was, what was inspiring to me about this fun intervention

experience is that it showed that if you actually are more intentional about

how you gather people, going back to Priya Parker, um, and what kind of

structures you give people and what kind, like how you use technology.

For example, zoom allowed us to do breakout rooms.

Very interesting to see how many people immediately left the meeting

when breakout rooms were mentioned.

Cuz they were like, oh no, no, no.

I was here just to listen.

But the people who stuck around really found it valuable.

And you know, I spoke to one person who's a total introvert afterwards,

and she was like, yeah, I was a little hard to get over myself and

be in that breakout room, but I did it and it actually was enjoyable.

And then she said it actually made.

Self-conscious the next time she was in the context when

there was a breakout room.

So I think that, yeah, I think that there's ways to use technology better

that could actually give us opportunities we don't have when we're in person.

But with that said, I do think nearly always in person is better.

Yeah.

Uh, I

Oh.

default And I was like, get that And we had

to kind of go to the central IT Disabled on my login break house.

wow, break house can be so powerful for feel power to that you're never

gonna And I and, you're missing out on

Right, right.

But it's also cuz you, if you stick someone in a breakout room and you

don't tell 'em what to do, then of course it's gonna be awkward.

And of course you're not gonna wanna do it and it won't lead to anything useful.

You, I think it goes back to what we were talking about, the conversational prompts.

Really what we're talking about is giving a structure to interactions.

of some sort.

I think of them actually in the conversational setting as being

playgrounds of like, and Priya Parker talks about this as well, but I was

reading a lot of research about play when I was writing my book, and just

the idea that there's, there's kind of a, if you're in an environment where

there's a set of rules that govern your behavior, it actually is very freeing.

Like everybody knows if you're in a literal playground that it's okay to

hang upside down on the monkey bars.

Right.

It'd be like kind of weird if you did that on scaffolding on the

street, like you get some looks, but there's like ways that we.

You can have rules and structure, give people permission to be

playful in different context.

I mean, in some sense, this quite serious context can also be this kind

of playground, the structured thing.

There's a way to behave in a courtroom.

There's a way to behave in a restaurant.

We are in these kind of situations all the time, but it's very

comforting and freeing actually to know what the expectations are.

And so if you go to a breakout room and you're like, I don't know what

we're supposed to be doing, I dunno what the goal is, I don't know what

we're supposed to be talking about, that's gonna be super awkward.

If you go into a breakout room and someone has told you your goal is to spend the

next five minutes coming up with 30 horrible ideas for how to bond over a zoom

call, then you can hit the ground running.

You know, and then you have a way to actually make it into a

productive and enjoyable experience.

Sticking experiencing true fun talk about, the power

of fun squad And I wonder how many at work quite alien as an

Geez, I gotta think back on this.

I mean, what you're alluding to is, yeah.

When I was writing the Power of Fun, I got a huge, like a bunch of volunteers from my

mailing list to fill out all these surveys for me about moments that stood out to

them as having been truly fun before even offering them a potential definition.

Cause I was trying to nail down a definition of fun.

like a, create a definition of fun.

Cause there really wasn't a good one.

And so I asked people to tell me stories from their own lives that they

would describe as having been quote.

So fun.

That was how I phrased it.

And I collected three from each person.

And then I asked people to tell me to describe an experience they wish

they could participate in or plan that they think would also result in fun.

and I did that because I actually sent this survey out in August of 2020, so

it was still very much in lockdown.

So people actually, it was kind of sad.

People were telling me about all these things that had been fun and it was

like, that's not gonna happen now.

So I don't remember off the top of my head the breakdown of all these,

there's thousands of them at this point.

I will say though, that it did stand out to me that I don't have any

memories of any that were on screens.

No one was like, I was on Instagram and it was so fun.

Um, I tend to think that there were some people who did.

Upon with colleagues, but we're often surprised by it.

But yeah, I would say the vast majority of stories, people who

are not associating with, um, time at work, which is really too bad.

But I think also if you then ask people, like you just don't think to think about

work as having had a moment of fun.

But if you ask people, did you ever experience this?

Then they might be like, oh yeah, there was that time when actually we

were working on a project and we were staying up late and like, you know,

it was really hard and challenging.

But we also ordered takeout and like, we actually, I got to know my.

Probably in a different way, and we laughed a lot and it was

really a bonding experience.

So I think, I think it probably does happen, but we're not calling it out as.

as we've been impact that I'm a big advocate but I think

as well creating a we work, eat further playing do you think we

should in fact trying to Or does it of work is trying to make attracting

I don't really think so.

I think that it makes it more enjoyable and fun and then makes it more efficient

so you actually save time cause you don't feel like you're grinding away.

So I actually think the more you know, I mean obviously you don't wanna be

inappropriate, but like having a playful attitude at work I think is

beneficial pretty much in every way.

But I also think we could stand to build more of that into our leisure time too.

Because even though theoretically that's time for play, play is an

interactive experience, but most of us spend a lot of our leisure time just

kind of sitting alone watching tv.

So I think we could do a better job in all regards there, and it would make our

leisure time better, our relationships.

Really everything better.

And also I would say that when you're playful, you're totally focused.

Like you can't really be dis, well, certainly for fun, you can't be distracted

and be having fun because I think that being in flow is a component of.

Fun as in the state of being totally engaged and present in

your, you know, current experience.

But I would argue that in order to really play, you have to be present

too, because you have to be responding to things, whether it's a game, you

know, if you're checking your phone or you're playing tennis, you're

gonna get hit in the head with a ball.

But like, if you're in a conversation and you're, and you're having a playful

conversation with someone, if you're not listening to what they're saying

and paying attention and remembering it, then you can't make callbacks to things.

You can't make jokes.

You, they're gonna not really feel very connected.

you as an when did you last ask of full

knowledge that you are exactly.

So And the, playing, I'm successful, with a lot on their plate.

How you actively carve out lens your life When did

Yeah.

Well, I think you're actually touching on, I think, a fundamental issue we

have when it comes to play and with fun, but it works well with play.

Just the way you're talking about it there, we think of playing as a

verb, but I think we should think about it as an adjective so that,

in other words, the difference between playing and being playful.

I think there's ways to play verb in many aspects of life, but that

in the sense of being playful.

But I think people think like, oh, I have to sit down and play like,

I'm gonna play a game of chess.

Well, that's a commitment.

You're really busy.

When are you gonna play chess?

I don't know.

I personally have no interest in chess.

Doesn't sound very fun at all to me.

But you can be playful about everything.

You can be playful about cooking dinner.

You can be playful about how you fold the laundry.

Like I think I know one of the things that made me and makes me love my

husband, the, you know, One of his primary characteristics is playfulness.

So I would say that I'm playful all the time, every time I interact with him.

And if we're not being playful, then something's wrong, . So I

would say in terms of like when have I recently been playful?

I mean, just this morning I had a walk with a friend with

a really playful conversation.

I also had, I mean, lots of moments, but like another that stands out is

I was playing music with friends.

The other day.

So I was literally playing and a friend of mine offered cuz he knew, speaking

of feeling seen, knew that I would find it very fun if we were to try play this

Carrie Underwood song called Before He Cheats, which I recommend that people

look up if they haven't heard it.

It's a fun song.

It's a fun, it's from like the early two thousands.

Anyway.

Um, It's obviously originally sung by a woman about a guy cheating, but my

friend sang it, who's a guy, and he, he like went for it and he's like, there's

certain notes I can't hit and whatever.

But we did it because it was just gonna be fun.

And so we had a really playful attitude towards playing the song.

And that was really enjoyable.

Um, I've tried to bring more play.

I, I don't know, like the other as a separate tangential thing.

I've getting been getting very freaked out by AI and, uh, algorithms.

Something, this is something I think about a lot.

But, so I was playing around with Che G P T the other day and I asked Che G P T if

it thought that a hotdog was a sandwich.

Um, it gave me a super boring answer and I was like, we'll never be friends.

And then I actually said, I said to it, yeah.

I was like, that was not a very fun answer.

And it was like, I'm sorry, as an AI algorithm, my job is just

to, you know, basically aggregate information it presented to you.

So a hotdog could be a sandwich, da da da da da.

And I was like, boring.

So anyway,

but I, you

there we go.

This.

bring that, Yeah, I don't know.

I interviewed two, um, what were they?

Like psych, I'm doing a podcast where I interviewed doctors about their work.

Totally separate project, and it's been really fun to try to inject playfulness

into conversations with, you know, like a reproductive psychiatrist or like

someone who is a molecular geneticist.

It's like, how can I bring out a bit of playfulness because.

It makes them human.

You've got these superstar people, but if you can get them to play with you for

a second, it just shows their humanity.

I think that's so important.

I also think if all of us could play a bit more with each other,

the world would be a better place.

You've got me ranting now, but it would be cuz it's, it's makes us see each other.

I love that

g

t

and.

You know, when you, you read about, AI humans, and what is it about humans?

and it's like that that spark of well, I dunno, is it, is

it human or is biological?

Because animals

Yeah,

I dunno, we, I don't think we kind of have

no, we definitely don't.

Yeah.

I would also say, I think that, you know, AI chat, it's gonna be, it's

gonna do a better job next time.

Like, I think it's gonna be a matter of time before you can

banter with, um, chat G B T.

And that terrifies me.

But I will say, yeah, my research I'm playing, you know, that

would've come across this too.

Humans are not the only, obviously like go to a dog park like.

Their masters at play.

But I remember reading these really funny references to articles that were

like fish that leap juggle and teas or like the platypus in play, like all

these different animals down to like basically reptiles and maybe even insects.

Like there's an element of play.

I'm always really surprised when.

You know when you read about the theories about why animals play and it seems

like now it doesn't really seem like it's practice for something serious, but

I'm always like, wait guys, like what if it's just because it's enjoyable?

What if the reason that we play, cuz people will always say, oh, if

you're being playful, you're wasting energy that could be put towards

this survival of this species.

You're not using it to.

Or like you're not using to defend off attackers, you're

making yourself vulnerable.

And I'm like, but you're socially bonding.

And for so many animal species, most definitely us, that is

actually a survival thing.

I think there's a, I think it's fascinating to think about fun and play as

actually being evolutionarily important, if not essential, because it connects you

to other people, helps you bond together.

And it also releases all sorts of feel good chemicals in your body that are good

for your health and counteract some of the negative effects of stress hormones.

So I, I really, to me, there's like a very clear biological

reason to play and have fun

Okay.

I so you can go to your physical therapy.

Um,

I also asked my physical therapist if he

thought a hot dog was a sandwich.

This is clearly a thing he thought it was, and I'm getting confused by

everyone's arguments cuz everyone has a different argument about this.

He, he felt pretty strongly about it.

There's also a very funny clip my husband reminded me of, where Stephen Colbert,

the late night host here in the States, he interviewed Ruth Bader Ginsburg,

the former Supreme Court Justice, um,

And he asked her if she thought a hotdog was a sandwich.

And she brilliantly countered with will.

I can't answer that question till you define what a sandwich is, which is

like the whole point, Ruth anyway.

Uh, one thing before I in the reflections,

The word professor your band

Mm-hmm.

that seems to be a big about bantering, what about.

I dunno, I like, how do you you play What's your, yeah.

What do you think about in the

Well, first of all, thank you for noticing that I, cuz I

didn't even realize I kept using that.

But it's something I've thought about a lot because I think it's something

that's missing for many adults.

We have different types of relationships, right?

You've got your significant other, you've got your kids, you've got your

colleagues, you've got, I don't know, like whatever other relationships

we have, but do we have playmates?

And some of those people can serve as playmates, but it sounds weird as an

adult to be like, Amy, thanks Playboy, but like you, It sounds kind of weird to

be like, I wanna have more playmates, but I was just talking to someone about this,

this week about how important that is.

I think each of us have different levels of need for this, but I

personally have a huge need to have people I can just play with.

I just going back to your first question, what I think play is, is this feeling of

release, of letting go, of responsibility, of not having to be like a profess.

Adults or even to talk.

You know, there's sometimes where it's like lovely to catch up with friends

in an intimate way, but sometimes you just don't even wanna do that.

And I've got certain relationships in my life where I realize that we don't really

talk about personal stuff that much.

And it's really more on the level of just life of like talking about these.

It seems inconsequential questions or subjects or whatever, but

the, it's just fodder for a real relationship that comes from play.

So you're saying, what do you do if you don't have playmates?

Well, I would say, I would say start by actually asking yourself if that's true.

Like, I actually think of these, it's a variation on something I think of

as like fun, kind of like certain people are kind of fun magnets.

Like they, you just have more fun when they're around.

Those are probably playmates.

So if you have any friends where you're like, oh yeah, just consistently have fun.

But really anyone who's willing to engage with you when you feel a sense

of lightness, I would say, or where you find yourself laughing more than

normal, like that's probably a playmate.

If you don't feel like you have enough people like that, or even if you do,

I think that there's a real benefit in having a shared activity going back to

what I was saying before, because it gives you, again, a structure and something

to play around and different people have different activities that are going.

Generate that or to lead toward to a playful spirit more than others.

So for some people it might be an organized sport like join some kind of

soccer club or football club or whatever.

Other people might find it in a different type of like class or some

kind of, I don't know, anything really like a painting class or there was a

foraging group that was meeting here in Philadelphia where I live a while ago.

Just something that gives you a, a shared vocabulary because in order

to play you need to have some.

Material with which to play.

Right?

But it doesn't need to be the traditional, like game night.

It's really anything you're interested in that you can use to connect

with people in a playful manner.

And I would say to people to just kind of, Sample stuff, like make it a priority.

We all have more time than we realize.

Even if we are really busy professionals or we are parents.

And I'd say that in part because we're spending before the pandemic, the best

statistics I'd had were the people were spending upwards of four hours a day on

their phone, like just their phone, not their laptop or their tablet or anything.

Just the phone.

That's 60 full days a year and it's a quarter of your waking life.

So I really do think if we were to.

Cut back on some of the things that we objectively know are a waste of time.

Like scrolling through social media for most people is a waste of time.

You actually can carve out time to prioritize play, and then I would

just experiment, try something that's piqued your curiosity.

Something that you, you used to be into when you were a kid.

For me personally, what led to this?

This musical community, which is honestly the, the biggest community, most important

community in my life right now, was the fact that I cut back on my phone use.

I wrote a book called How to Break Up With Your Phone, and I broke up with my

phone, which means I just created a more intentional, healthier relationship.

I ended up with more free time and then I asked myself, well, what's

something I say I wanna do, but that I supposedly don't have time for?

And my answer to that question was learn to play guitar.

Cuz as I mentioned, I played piano since I was a kid, but I didn't,

I, I have a guitar my grandmother gave me money for in college.

I was very close with her and I've always felt kind of guilty.

I didn't learn to play the guitar, so I was like, I'm gonna

sign up for a guitar class.

And I started going to this Wednesday night guitar class, P Y O B.

It was other, obviously other adults.

It was at a children's music studio.

We were playing like the Moana theme song.

It was just inherently playful.

Like it wasn't just, we were playing, but it was playful.

And that to this day, like that's what I do on Wednesday nights.

Like I happen to hit the bullseye when I first started this.

But I would say get out there and experiment and get together with

different groups of people doing different things and notice how

you feel when you're around them.

And if it feels draining and kind of like a chore and you dread going,

then you didn't find playmates.

But if you, you just feel a sense of.

When you're around them and you find yourself looking forward to getting

together, this sounds kind of obvious, but like then you've probably found

some good playmates, but you gotta, they won't necessarily be the people

you're closest to, which I think is something that was important for me to

recognize, like hopefully your close friends have an element of play, but

you can also have playmates that you're never gonna be super close friends with.

You know, I am genuine friends with some of the hug from my guitar community

now, but there's other situations in which if you took our instruments

away, we'd be like, oh, we don't know what we're supposed to talk about.

We don't talk.

We get together and we play, you know, Lisa Loeb songs.

Like that's what we do, like

So anyway, rambling again.

You got me.

Yeah, no, I, I almost, some loved ones But also I

love this loved ones and actually,

And

and value it.

yeah, it's again, the word provocation, can be walking down

Yeah.

It's so easy once you start doing it, you realize, oh my God,

this actually is not that hard.

And people are very responsive to it.

So I would say, you know, if there are some people in your life that

you don't feel are particularly playful, maybe try being playful

with them and see what happens.

I mean, they might still not be playful, in which case you, you

did your deed , you can move on.

But, You also might be surprised that actually this person who seemed

totally serious has a playful side.

That's something I've been finding in these interviews is like when

I interview these scientists, they often have a playful, you

know, they're playful by nature.

Cuz playful playfulness is also kind of curiosity.

But I think the best analogy for what you were just talking about is, is actually

dogs, like dogs have a very well known, what's known as a play signal, which

is when they bow and they stick their butts up in the air and wag their tails.

I'm not suggesting we do that, but.

Although you did it right, that's true.

If you did that, it probably someone report back,

pretty clear signal.

Yeah, exactly.

But we all can kind of put ourselves out there in the

world in a more playful manner.

The first step to that honestly is like, look up from your phone.

You are never going to play with another person or experience this if

you're just staring at your phone.

And I've just, I've been astonished in my own life like, Easy it is to initiate

play and how it almost becomes this habit and how much people respond to it.

Like I end up, I'm, I'm not trying to strike out conversations with like

ride share like Uber and Lyft drivers, but I keep ending up in these little

conversations with them and they're fun.

Because we're essentially just bantering, right?

For like five minutes, never gonna see them again.

Or the other day I was in an art gallery scene in exhibit, and there was this

guy who was doing this like weird thing with his, he was making a telescope

out of his hand and looking through it.

And my friend and I were like, what's that guy doing?

And I was like, why don't we just ask him?

And I went up and asked this guy like, what are you doing?

It turned out he was just nearsighted and he was trying to focus.

But we ended up having this like playful moment and it inspired

me and my friend to then.

I don't know how this happened.

We ended up striking up conversations with like eight

separate people in this art gallery.

Never would've thought to have done that.

I feel like there was some kind of, I don't know, serendipitous feeling

in the air, but maybe it's cuz we were just sending off these like.

Openness to other people.

And the exhibit itself was great.

I really enjoyed it.

But what I really remember from that afternoon is like having these little

playful moments with other people.

So in my mind, like that's what makes life worth living and

we should be prioritizing it.

And it also happens to have all these benefits in terms of how we

collaborate and work with other people.

But fundamentally, it makes us feel happy and it makes us feel.

Um,

Oh,

Is there anything

Oh man.

Uh, I clearly, we could clearly talk for a long time.

I think the thing I would say is I would just invite people, I know I kept

talking about the fun intervention in this conversation, the people that I

was running these fun interventions with from Momentum Labs and I, we

were so inspired by the experience.

We actually decided to do this as a monthly thing.

So if anyone is interested, they're free.

And it's gonna be the first Tuesday of every month.

And if you go to screen life balance.com.

There's information on it.

So I'd encourage you to come and invite friends or colleagues,

or really anybody to join you.

And every month we're gonna be doing a different hands-on exercise related to

exactly what you and I have just been talking about, about some of these more

concrete techniques that you can try in the moment and then take with you back to

your teams or your family or friends or whatever to use play and use fun to create

these moments of connection with people.

So I think that's the biggest thing, is that I would love to

invite people to join us so that we.

You know, continue to all work together to share this with the world.

reflections and your insights.

As you say, I could have gone on,

Yes, you too.

I'm so happy we got to talk and I hope this won't be the last time.

So if, yes, let's stay in touch.

So, Lucy, what did you notice about our

conversation with Catherine?

Oh, there was loads.

I really, was inspired by that thought about giving people

conversational handholds.

So at her, Full party, you know, like giving people a little question to answer.

I thought that was so nice and thoughtful and caring and generous and just a

lovely way of, Shifting people out of the like boring, usual questions.

And how in doing that you create a completely different dynamic.

And I just could see so many applications for that at work, the

way we design meetings at conferences.

Um, yeah, I thought that was really nice and generous.

Yeah, I completely agree.

I.

I didn't realize she was, um, a Priya Parker massive

fan girl.

Like I was too.

So that such gorgeous surprise, and we both brought up

that conversation.

Um, and clearly we both find kind of intentionality around gatherings, um,

is a, is a form of play for us both.

So that was lovely to meet a kindred spirit.

Um, in, in that.

And I completely agree.

I think a big takeaway for me was this idea of.

How specificity can be very, very freeing.

And so asking a very specific question that might seem quite odd, it, it frees

up the conversation to go somewhere else.

Um, and I just love that that tension between being kind of narrow and

specific in, in what you're doing or what you're asking can actually

have, a very, very freeing function.

So I really, I really like that

Yeah, and I've been putting into practice and people are a bit like

confused to start asked somebody the other day what they'd been thinking

about and they were like, they didn't, they didn't really understand, like, so

I had to explain, but it then it, you know, it opened up a conversation in

a way that we definitely wouldn't have got to, had I not asked that question.

It's definitely about, I think for me, how to almost get past that initial,

as you say, kind of slightly awkward.

Slightly bamboozled.

Wow.

Wasn't expecting that.

And kind of goes back to our previous conversation with Alison around

the, the joy of the unexpected.

But there's often that initial.

Awkwardness, um, to kind of push past, I guess, or to move beyond.

and, and it is the same with the kind of the name tags I did.

And she was like, gosh, it feels so like dorky, right?

To, to give your guest name tags like that, that feels really bizarre.

But again, that can just, that small act with a little fact about yourself

with a little starter question can just spark pay for curiosity and.

Give license for different conversations and, and actually be really a form

of massive generosity to your guests.

Um, but it, but it takes that initial slightly uncomfortable, oh no, we're

gonna do this even though it's a bit odd.

Um, and I just really found that kind of inspiring and I, I want to,

I wanna do more of that in my life.

Yeah.

And my guess is that in doing that, you create a completely different event.

Like, I bet the conversations, the atmosphere, the energy was

completely different than it would've been had you just been

like, so what have you been up to?

Yeah,

What do you do?

Um, yeah.

I, I really liked how she widened the scope of the conversation

that we had kind of beyond play at work.

Cause obviously what we are, you know, here to talk about on the podcast and,

and there's so many facets of that.

But I really enjoyed her widening into.

Play and friendships and relationships.

And she really went into even just the kind of playfulness between

her and her husband and how she can kind of see different forms

of play in different friends.

And, you know, play doesn't have to be part of a friendship

and equally friendship.

You know, you don't need to have a deep friendship with someone to find, to

engage in a moment of play with them.

I just love that exploration of kind of the role that play

plays in our friendships and in our relationships beyond work.

Yeah, and noticing.

How you feel when you're in a playful dynamic with someone.

So she was talking about, you know, there's that lightness and that

sense that you are laughing more and noticing those feelings and when you

feel sparked like that with somebody.

I think often it, it's not necessarily friendships, sometimes just I find I

have random playful interactions with the street and those little moments

are really enlivening and fulfilling and like make my day way better.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think the phrase to use, which absolutely encapsulates what

you're just saying there, is, how might we put ourselves out

in the world in a playful manner?

And it's exactly that.

It's kind of when you.

Step out of your door.

yeah, how can you just seek out to, to also to bring some, a little bit

of play to someone else's day and to just have that interaction with

someone you might never see again, but it's, yeah, it's putting yourself

out in the world in a playful manner.

And I, I love that, that invitation and that, um, encouragement I think, and

the, the conversation I had with her.

I really, um, love the idea of fun interventions and.

Yeah, just finding ways of injecting little moments into your day and.

Taking time to do that.

Like I think that's so important.

I think the, the thing that made my jaw drop was that, you know, that

horrible little screen reminder she was talking about, about your screen time.

I mean, mine's often five or six hours, which is horrendous.

And even the four hours a day is like 60 days a year.

I was just like, wow, I need to really address how I'm using my time and.

And find ways of building more of those joyful, fun, playful

moments into life outside of work.

Completely.

And I think part of that, a kind of practical way of

thinking about how, how do we.

Get off screens, get out into the world and, and find more play.

It was this idea of how might we kind of proactively seek out, you know, she

calls them fun magnets in our life.

And I think about when you think about people in your life, your friends,

your family, your colleagues, um, you know, you'll have lots of fun,

different kinds of fun with, with various members of, of the people in your life.

But I kind of spun on this head and thought, wow, imagine if I, rather than

just thinking about who I knew or how we knew each other, it was kind of how.

Who, who would I, how could I seek out more fun magnets?

Like, what do I love doing?

Could I go to something that other people might like doing those things?

And it's kind of turning on its head in terms of I'm going out,

I'm finding playmates, I'm finding people with whom I can have fun.

And that's often, I think, not something we tend to do as

adults with kind of busy lives.

Um, but I love that idea of how, how might you go out and find kind of fun

magnets and playmates that you could share a form of playfulness with.

Yeah, and, and that sense of like just putting down our

responsibility sometimes and diving into the inconsequential and the, you

know, seemingly meaningless because actually, That's what makes life

rich and fun and juicy and enjoyable.

So I've got a question for you, Zuki.

Yes.

Tell me.

Ask

is a hot dog a sandwich?

My gosh, I'm in massive overthinking territory with this.

I've been noodling on that.

Oh, I think it is on the thesis and already, what a fun word.

Right?

It's, uh, it's bread surrounding a filling of some sort.

So for me, that's a sandwich.

Wholeheartedly.

Yes.

What do Yeah,

No, it's not a sandwich.

It's a hot dog.

It's a completely different thing.

So what hot dog is it?

Same category,

Yeah,

but a category of one.

A category of one.

Yeah.

Amen.

Thank you so much for listening today.

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to ensure that you don't miss out on more playful inspiration.

Don't forget, you can find us@www.whyplayworks.com or

wherever you get your podcasts.

If you'd like to join our growing community of People United by the idea

of play at work, you can sign up to the Playworks Collective on our homepage

If you have any ideas for future episodes, topics you'd love

to hear about, guest suggestions or questions about the work we do with

organizations, we'd love to hear from you.

Your feedback really matters to us, so please drop us a

line@hellowhyplayworks.com.

We'll be back in a fortnight with a brand new guest and we hope you'll join us.