It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I sit down with Tina Thörner, one of the most respected co-drivers in motorsport, to explore her journey both within and beyond rallying.

Tina shares how her career began, growing up in a family deeply connected to motorsport, and how that led her to work alongside some of the sport’s biggest names, including Colin McRae and Louise Aitken-Walker. She reflects on the defining moments of her career, from competing in the demanding Dakar Rally to becoming one of the first female world champions in the World Rally Championship.

I explore with Tina how rallying has evolved over the years, the challenges modern drivers face, and what has changed in terms of competition, preparation, and mindset. She also shares her perspective on life after professional rallying and the new directions her career has taken.

This episode is a celebration of an extraordinary career, offering insight into the resilience, determination, and passion required to succeed at the very highest level of motorsport.

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I'd like to introduce the backseat driver, a famous coal driver who now works in a completely unrelated industry, I suppose you could say a far more relaxed industry.

I won't say exactly what, but I'd like to welcome to the backseat driver Tina Turner, the famous co driver of Louise Ait, Kim Walker amongst others.

Tina, welcome to the backseat driver.

Thank you so much, Mark.

It's been a pleasure to be with you here and all your listeners, of course.

Now quickly, how did you get into motorsport?

Is it a family thing or did you fall it?

Because it was quite a while before you became a coal driver.

Yes, it was.

I was actually.

Yes.

I grew up with sisters and brothers in Veremland, where the Swedish Rally is.

So of course everybody knew about the rally.

We were driving on the ice, we had the cars on the farm, so we drove.

Grew up with that.

More or less similar to Louise.

The one thing is, and it's well known within the world of rallying, the Scandinavians as a whole are incredible rally drivers because every winter time they go out and a trip to the shops for most people elsewhere will be a special stage.

Yeah, correct.

So once again, how did you start into it?

Was it a passion for watching it or did you just.

No.

And, and with, with that the.

My.

My sister and brothers or.

Yeah.

Friends around.

Yeah, they were in the motor club.

Yeah.

And I actually was interested in flying airplanes or gliders and.

Slight aircraft.

Yeah.

And that's why we then.

So I joined the motor club and that's where I met Lars Eric.

Yeah, we fell in love.

That's one way to go about it.

Yes.

So I fell in love and then I became his co driver.

Yeah, but that was first when I was 18.

Yeah, but by until then you would do.

You were pursuing other interests.

Yeah, until then I've been in the States learning to fly.

I flew gliders and light aircraft and air balloons.

So.

Yeah, so I was deep into flying.

Yeah.

So then from flying high I started to fly low in the rally car with him.

Yes.

It's like Volter all once commented that he.

There are certain events he drove that he seemed to fly more than he drove.

So I mean, how did it all start off co driving for your then husband?

I mean where did you progress to from there?

He was then when I met him, a Swedish junior champion.

Yeah.

And then he was on the tour and Susan Kotlinski, a Swedish lady who was in the junior champ junior team.

Yeah, yeah.

Was needed a co driver.

Yeah.

And then I. I joined Susan as a co driver.

Yeah.

And we then got to drive for Volvo.

That's the.

Was the last works drive that Volvo officially did.

Right.

And we actually won the West Euro cup with that.

Yeah.

That year.

So.

And after Susan 86, then Larikin did the Swedish rally with a private team.

Yeah.

And finished third and one Group A. Yeah.

And then we were.

We were approached by Volkswagen actually, from Volksburg.

Yeah.

Yeah.

With the.

With the Volkswagen motorsport in the Safari Rally.

Right.

As it happened, he had an accident in Rally Monte Carlo as a spectator.

Yeah.

And passed away there.

So that was.

He lost his life in 89 before we actually started our first professional.

Yeah.

Drive together with the.

With Volkswagen.

Yeah.

So did the works drive with Volkswagen continue or was that the end of it?

No, it was me because, you know, we as a team.

Yeah.

So I stopped rallying after that and then it was actually Opel Team Sweden.

Yeah.

And that's how I got to meet Luis, because Opel Team Sweden then had a driver called Mats Junson.

Yeah.

And his co driver was not so good in English, so they wanted me to go with him for the Scottish Rally.

Yeah.

And that's how I got to New Northern Vauxhall team.

Yeah.

And the following year, or that autumn, Vauxhall decided to support a female crew.

Yeah.

And then they had got to Nyomi during those races with Mats.

Yeah.

And then they asked them if I wanted to meet Luis.

Yeah.

And they had already started to speak and.

Yeah.

And the adventure continued because, I mean, you became one of the two women to be the first lady of female world champions, didn't you?

Exactly.

We were the first world championship ladies.

In the wrc, which would have been a phenomenal achievement.

I mean, it was a phenomenal achievement at the time, wasn't it?

Yes, it was.

And we Master had the Minasil and Colva and Lancia had Paola de Martini.

Yeah.

And then there was.

So it was four manufacturers who had four female teams.

Yeah, it was competing.

Yeah.

Because at the time, would you have been up against Michelle Mouton?

No, she had stopped at that time.

All right, so.

Because, I mean, besides Lou, yourself and Louise, Michelle is probably the.

The other most famous female rally driver.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, when did the.

How long did the partnership with Louise last?

For three years.

Until she got pregnant.

Yeah.

With John.

Yeah.

And of course.

I mean, I spoke to Louise about it as well.

The other thing you're famous for with Louise is the famous accident in Portugal.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's when we have aqua plumbing.

Yeah.

Because I know.

Talking to Mark Busfield, who kindly arranged this interview, he was commenting, he said the vehicle was so far down it took them 20 hours to recover it.

Yes, it sank six meters underwater.

Yeah.

Because I know the problem was, was getting out of the car, wasn't it, when you were in it?

Yes, yes, because it was so deep and so dark that you couldn't see anything.

So then it was very good that we had practice to come out of the car very quickly and up and down and that you do by instinct to open the belts and take off helmets and things like this, that you have a routine that the mind don't have to think about it.

Yeah.

So, I mean, after Louise, where did you go after that?

Because, I mean, I concluded you would want to stay within rallying, but were you able to stay with Opel or Vauxhall or did you have to move on?

Yes, I was approached by Mitsubishi in the.

In Germany, who had the female driver.

He sold the holderin that they wanted to.

To join for the female world championship.

So.

Yes, so I moved to Germany and started three or four years, three years with this and we won the world Championship, then two years in a row with Mitsubishi.

Yeah.

So your world championship reputation was continued.

Yes, yes, it did.

Now, I mean, moving forward a little bit, you were also known, you took part in the Dakar with Juta Kleinschmidt.

Now, you're the first person I've spoken to who has driven or coal driven in the Pari Deco.

What is it like to do that and what is it like compared to what you might call a normal rally?

I would say that if you compare it, it's like when you are running a sprint on 100 meters or you are doing a marathon.

Because the stages in Dakar at that time, when I started, that was in Africa.

We actually started in Europe.

The start used to be in Paris, did it not?

Yes.

So we started in Paris and then drove down and took the boat over Gibraltar.

Yeah.

And then there was some short stages, like prologues in Europe and then the first real estate was in Morocco.

Yeah.

And from there on it was like three weeks with only one rest day.

Yeah.

And every stage was between 600 to 1,000 kilometers.

So you drove for like six or eight hours in competition mood and also in the rally scene.

We had pace notes.

You know where to drive in every corner.

Yeah.

In the Dakar, you had to do like you were on the.

On the sea you have to navigate from your compass and directions of that and then you drive blind like the rallies was before.

Yeah, but of course now you have the whole nature to navigate in.

Since there is no roads, I conclude.

I've seen videos of it.

Etc.

It is, it's incredible.

I mean, all of a sudden you will discover yourself flying off the top of a sand dune, but there's no warning that it's there.

Yes, because since you drive blind and you just have navigation directions, there is not a set course.

So they don't know which sand dune you are choosing.

Whereabouts do you meet up with service on the Dakar?

Because I mean, you will be being followed by a service barge.

But do they know the route you are taking or do you just meet up at a geographical point?

Yes, you meet up at geographical points.

So for instance, the service truck have partly roads, but they drive in normal traffic, they drive off piste a little bit, they take shortcuts to come to those what we call bivouacs that they build up.

It's so many people and they come with food trucks and stuff.

And when we were in Africa, you cannot go out and eat the local, you know, so you don't get sick and things like this.

And I mean sleeping, I conclude you will get very little sleep given the distances you're traveling every day.

You won't get a lot of sleep or rest, will you?

No.

And also you live in tents and you have maybe I would say that you get four hours of sleep every night.

Yeah, you have to prepare the following day since at that time, you know, had maps and you had to do that work compared to where you think in case you had something that happened, that you should be able then to get help or in case something.

So during, when we came back from the special states, maybe so around you can between 4 and 6 in the afternoon.

And normally we started between 5 and 6 in the morning.

Yeah.

And then you eat, you take a shower, whatever shower or a bottle of water to at least clean up a little bit.

And then you work during the night until maybe 12 or 1 o' clock to prepare the next day's stage.

Yeah, on the navigation, you know, Jutta and I were then sitting together where we tried to figure out from the book of navigations where we should have.

Yeah, where we thought we were going.

Yeah,.

But.

And then we had those maps in the car with us.

Yeah, but of course, you know, the sand dune there is nothing like what you could read out on the maps from that.

So I was going to Say, reading from maps in a location where there are no landmarks, hardly any roads, how do you work out that you are going in the right direction?

Because, I mean, back then there wouldn't be the satellite navigation that there is now.

Yes, exactly.

And that was what the difficulties, you could say, because you cannot, but you could.

There was only old Russian maps.

So I got really good at trying to find out Russian names for villages.

And that was the only maps you could find over the Sahara was the Russian maps.

Yeah.

I mean, where did they find these old maps?

They were actually in France.

There was a special library.

Map libraries.

Oh.

So I don't know how, why, but that's where you could find them.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

And I can remember you saying when you gave the speech that I attended, your main problem with Colin was getting him to slow down.

Because if memory serves, you were in a Nissan, weren't you?

Yes.

The first two years we were in a Nissan.

Yeah.

And then we were in the BMW after that.

Yeah, I know.

You said, how did you go on getting him to slow down?

Because I remember you saying you to keep telling him, this rally lasts for days, not ours.

No, exactly.

That was in the beginning.

We had a good.

Then you, you cannot.

You, you put him, you take him up the big slope.

No, I'm joking.

No, but, but no, no, we had a good discussion and after a couple of days, the first couple of days, he, he was, he understood.

But the speed to keep far.

Yeah.

Contact bus.

Do you know our first problems was actually that.

To keep it over three weeks.

Yeah.

Even though you have a great service and stuff like that is still you cannot push like you did in the wrc.

Yeah.

I mean, what was Colin like?

I was never fortunate enough to meet him.

What was he like?

Yeah, he was great.

I mean, we were the best of friends and he was always with a glimpse in his eye.

He was a rascal, if I say in that way, you know.

Yeah, he was a rascal and we just got along well and.

Because when you do things like that over long time and you sit together 20, 20 hours a day, you need to like each other.

Yeah.

I mean, you need to have fun together in a way.

Yeah.

I mean, I have, I have, I've driven and coal driven.

I'm not a Good coal driver.

If you want to get lost, give me the ma.

But as you said, you.

When you are in a car for the longest events I've driven have been six days and it's like you say, you have to be good friends with your fellow member, fellow passenger in the car.

You've got to get on.

Well, it doesn't work if you don't get on.

No, exactly.

That is, you have to have that because it's so much things you run into.

Yeah.

That.

That it becomes.

Yeah.

You know, if you don't have fun.

Yeah.

I'll probably get this wrong.

Nasser Al Attaya.

Yes, correct.

Nasser Al Atiyah.

Yes.

What exactly was that rally?

Yeah, that was just like a championship.

But the championship, like a World Rally Championship was championship in different desert rallies.

So the, the Desert challenge is.

I think at that year it was six.

Six, six rallies.

Yeah.

You have three marathons and three Bajas, it's called.

Yeah.

So that was the first mixed team to win that championship.

And also a European female co driving for.

For a Muslim or a man from Middle East.

So I mean did you intend moving into the desert, rallying into the raids, the rally raids or.

I conclude it just happened for you.

Yeah, it just happened for me because I was working with Mitsubishi in Germany.

I was competing with a German driver over n. And then they had started with Jutta Kleinschmid.

Jutta Klanschmid had been on the motorbike and Mitsubishi wanted to have the same sort of structure as they had had with Isolde and other girls in the World Rally Championship.

They wanted, since Mitsubishi was very successful in the desert rallies, they wanted to have a female team in the desert rallies.

So I was recruited from Mitsubishi who was setting up that team.

Actually Sven Kvant, who was running the Mitsubishi Gecko team in the desert.

I was approached by them to become.

A co driver for Yuta because Juta Kleinschmidt in many ways made her name driving Volkswagens.

Were you involved with her?

Were you involved with Utah during her Volkswagen years?

No, I wasn't because I drove with Daniel de Villiers at that time for Volkswagen.

And then I decided that I wanted to go back with Thomas Rubstrom, got an offer to drive the World Rally Championship for Citrain and I was approached by him to co drive for him.

Yeah, enough twins driver with a world championship winning car.

That would be a good opportunity to actually try to win the world championship.

Yeah.

So I switched down Back to wrc.

Right.

So, I mean, how long did you keep going as a co driver?

When did you eventually.

When did you eventually decide that was.

That's enough.

Then I had started, say my first rally.

I did 84.

Yeah.

And then I stopped.

And what made you stop?

Why did you decide to stop?

There was actually I had.

Throughout the rallies I've had some accidents and stuff happening.

And when I went in for the medical exam.

Yeah.

The doctor said to me, because when you get older, of course you can practice your muscles, but with the injuries I had had in the, in my back and the what you say, you know, at the top of your leg or your hip.

Hip.

Thank you.

My hip and back.

He said if I would have a really hard crash again, it would be.

It could happen that you go into a roll chair.

Yeah.

Wheelchair.

Yeah.

And then I thought, I've done so many years of rallying and to take that risk, I.

When you have turned over 50, I thought, no,.

I'm 65 and I am now paying the price for my multisport activities.

Yes.

You tend to creak when you get up in the morning and you realize you can't do what you used to do.

Yes.

And also that mark is for me, you know, when a doctor say that and you have done so many years.

So I actually stopped in the middle of Utah and my competition year, we were leading group A in the Desert Challenge.

But I said to Justa, for me it's not, it's not worth it.

Yeah.

I mean the one thing you did on my medical advice was stop.

The one thing I do notice at times, there are a lot of old rally drivers and co drivers who keep on going and I often wonder if it is a good idea for the them to do so.

I think, Margaret, each and one is different.

But when I took it, and also for me then I thought, oh no, I can do something else in life also, you know.

Yeah.

I spent 35 years almost or 30 years in.

In competition and now before I get too old, do something.

So I actually started to educate.

So I went to the university.

Yeah.

And studied for three years.

Yeah.

To.

To take my university exam.

Yeah.

And so.

So that for me also gave me an opportunity in the middle of my 50s to actually come out on the working market and do something that I have had passion for for a long time.

Yeah.

And now I'm living that dream, actually.

I mean, I conclude especially in Sweden, you will still you.

Especially in motorsport Circles, Yes.

So it's still, you know, when you have done television and stuff like that.

And I still do step in art.

I am out with companies.

I do leadership training or team building or things like this.

Yeah.

So, yes, I'm traveling around a bit.

I still do some stuff for the papers.

I still do some odd television thing here and there.

So.

Yeah.

Although you stop for medical reasons.

Do you miss it?

Would you like to go again?

Of course.

But you know, on that level where we sports or we were with Colin, you have to practice and you have to train and you have to do that.

And then in the years now, I feel, yeah, of course you can train, but it's also good when you have done it for 35 years to have a little bit of a relaxed way of looking upon life.

The one thing.

Motorsport does not give you a family life, does it?

No.

And that's why I moved back to Sweden now since three years and I'm spending time with my mother that I've never actually done since I was 16 and also with my sisters and brothers and their children.

Yesterday I have an ice hockey cup, it's called Tina Turner cup that I've had for 15 years.

All right.

So I was.

Yes, so I was.

Was out giving out medals to over 70 young ice hockey players.

Yeah.

So that's Tina turning up and getting caught, you know, for the team.

And then I go with.

My sister has a very good.

She was team champion in horse show jumping.

Yeah.

So I go with her.

And then we have another one who is really good, who was in the Swedish junior ice hockey team.

He's there actually.

So, yeah, it's a lot of things that I love since I don't have any kids myself, that I can do with them and I enjoy that in the weekends.

And as I told you today, my brother's youngest, William, is seven years old.

He's here with me now, you know, and they can spend the weekend and we go out and do things.

So, yeah, I enjoy that.

Many people have in the beginning of their.

Of their adolescence where I now have ending on my adolescence.

Yeah.

I mean, do you still have any association with any manufacturer, any car manufacturer, or does that not exist anymore?

No, not in the same way.

Of course, if I.

With Volvo and Polestar and things the division they have here.

Also BMW with Sven Klein Quant in Germany.

Yeah.

So I.

Yes, I've had worked back and forth in the industry in other ways.

Yes, I have.

Yeah.

So do you ever.

I mean as I said you were last year you came over as part of Mark Busfield's GM reunion and I mean it was very, very, very impressive.

Do you do other things like that or do you ever make guest appearances in a car or anything like that?

Not because of the things in my back.

I don't want to.

Yeah, go.

When Louise and I went on the track, you know, things like that.

But to do a rally.

No, I don't.

Because when it doesn't matter if it's just a short rally or not, you know, if I get the right.

The wrong impact.

Yeah.

So I have said loading you to those things.

Yes, well, we're going to say it's quite.

I mean one of the most famous ones was Tony Puns who wrecked his car on about the fourth corner of the first stage.

So you can have an accident at any time on a rally.

Yes, that's what I mean.

So yes.

Of all the rallies you competed in and all the cars you co drove in, which was your favorite vehicle and which was your favorite rally?

My favorite rally is the New Zealand rally.

Yeah, I love New Zealand.

I love that Raleigh.

I love the people there.

The car.

It's for sure.

I must say the coolest was actually the Volkswagen that was really, really well built and for the desert.

Yes, that was really.

Yeah, yeah, that's probably the coolest car.

And if you don't mind me asking, what sort of car do you drive now?

A BMW X1.

So because you.

You were never a driver, you were always a co driver, weren't you?

Yes, I did some.

Lars Eric always told me I have to drive a little bit to understand how you should read the pace note.

So actually did the German championship in the Mitsubishi Cult.

Yeah.

And then I did the Moon Brewing 24 hours.

I've done some of that with journalists.

Yeah, so I've done a little bit of driving myself, but not professionally in that way.

Yeah.

Did you enjoy the driving or did you realize that you much preferred to be in the passenger seat?

I realized that I Ford Motorsport police they say maybe it's good if you can try to learn to drive.

And I actually crashed an Rs200 on bore habit.

I was there testing with some of the engineers because they wanted to see how good I was as a driver.

Yeah.

And we concluded that I should have started much earlier or any other members crashed it.

A new Rs200.

Hey now, one of the world's rarest rally cars.

Are there any other Members of your family who you think will follow in your footsteps, who want to get involved with multisport.

No.

They are into hockey and, and horses and snowmobile, stuff like this?

No, not in that sense, no.

So.

Or have you told them it may be an idea to follow a more, a less dangerous pursuit than rally driving?

No, I never worked.

No.

No.

But you know, today it's so much more than when we grew up.

Today they start with football and ice hockey and I don't know all the sports they try at school at a very early age and kids don't live like we live on the farm and at our time parents, they let us drive when we were six.

Yeah, I mean they don't do that today.

And you know, you could drive outside and you could do this and you drove down to the lake and.

And you had training and now it's allowed nothing.

The only thing you are allowed is in what is so it's totally different.

Yeah.

So I think also they don't get the passion for it and when they start to drive at the age of 18, it's already too late.

Yeah, you have to start early and to be a part of always being sideways.

Now, one question I always ask all the, shall we say slightly older rally drivers and co drivers, what is your take?

What's your impression of modern rallying?

Because in my opinion modern rallying has become so fast, it's more or less become in many ways a 3D computer game.

I mean the speed and the cars etc is now beyond credibility.

I think that's human nature.

You know, you push the limits, you push Newton's law and with the new technique and with the new components and things that they do in a different way, of course it's going to go faster.

But still, as you see the drivers that's up there, it's very seldom there is bad accidents.

And so I think you grow with the assignment.

You grow with the assignment.

And I am somebody that would never say it was better before.

It was different before and we had different because we grew up with in a surrounding that was different.

Yeah.

Now they have another surrounding.

Now they have the Internet, the social media, the pressure, the always being in the spotlight, always being watched, doing this, doing that.

So yeah, so no, I think it's just different, Mark.

I think they will develop with it.

Yeah.

And that's the way the world goes.

So as long as you rock whatever you are doing at what time and you find that life quality with what you actually enjoy and gives you happiness and meaning, what life is and what your part in this is then I think it doesn't matter really.

And I conclude from watching the drivers etc that Scandinavia and Sweden still give us the best rally drivers, doesn't it?

Oh yeah, very good.

You sure?

Now you know, Rob Vampera just goes back, he wants to focus on.

On formula cars.

And now we have Solbang who is up there, won the latest Monte Carlo rally.

Yes.

They come up quick.

They are young and they are fearless.

Yeah.

And I mean just out of interest, like I said, the best rally drivers in the world tend to be Scandinavian.

I know you were saying now that youngsters aren't allowed to drive until a lot later, but are they given lessons on how to drive on the bad roads?

Because I mean icy roads, except in Scandinavia, nothing new.

Do you give them driving lessons when they're learning on how to drive on these roads?

I mean like Grogan Pere or Solberg.

They have all started with their parents, both Harry the father and also Petter the father of Oliver.

They all had their children driving and being a part of rallying at a very early age.

Yeah.

So I think they drove here and there and everywhere and I think that is what pays off in the end.

Yeah.

Because a friend of mine drove to for money for charity.

Drove a Fiat Panda from England to just north of the Arctic Circle.

He celebrated New Year's north of the Arctic Circle and he commented, he said it was just fascinating to see a.

There's not a lot of four wheel drives.

He said the old Volvo estate is still predominant and he said they can all just drive and I mean it's a phenomenal.

I often wish I'd been born and brought up in Sweden, if only to learn how to drive correctly.

Yes, of course.

But when you drive on those roads and snow and ice, you have to learn and accustom to that.

Yeah.

But it's something you will.

I conclude motorsport, although you don't take part anymore, you are still very keen on and passionate about.

Oh yes, oh yes.

I think that.

I mean I follow the wrc.

I have the Altboim part, you know, it's.

It's a part of my life, it's part in my genes.

Yeah.

And I get the feeling it's like the Thousand Lakes, it is part of Scandinavian and Swedish culture, isn't it?

Yes, I would say so.

Very much so.

Mark.

Yes.

Tina Torna, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you.

Thank you very much for giving up your Sunday morning to have a chat with me.

And as I said, thank you Mark.

And enjoy it and say hello to all the listeners.

Or I say hello to all the listeners.

Are you coming back to England anytime soon?

Yes.

Me and Louise try to catch up with each other regularly, so.

For sure.

Well, next time you come to England, let me know and I'll try and meet up with you again.

Ah, yes, that will be lovely.

We'll do so, Mark, enjoy.

Thank you.

Thanks very much indeed, Turner.

Take care and have.

Have the.

Enjoy the rest of your.