This episode of the Dudes and Dads Podcast features guest Bradley Vinson, author of The Help Method.

Vinson, inspired by the loss of his granddaughter, shares his HELP

method — an acronym providing a framework for supporting children

through grief. This poignant conversation explores the complexities of

childhood grief, emphasizing honest communication and giving children

permission to experience joy while grieving.

On this episode of the Dudes and Dads Podcast, we're talking with our friend Darren all about

raising kids who are empathetic.

You're listening to the Dudes and Dads Podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better

dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

And now, here are your hosts, Joel, Damana, and Elaine.

Andrew.

Joel, so I just got a tweet.

I tweeted out right before we went live and said, "Hey, we're going to be doing this

podcast."

Yes.

And I said, "Hey, we're going to live."

Yes.

And Justin said, "You're going live during Sunday Night Football.

It's going to put a dent in their ratings."

Yep.

You're right, Justin.

Wow.

You were right.

Bold comment, Justin.

We will live into the unlikely truth of that statement.

Hey, everybody.

Thanks for joining us here at the Dudes and Dads Podcast.

Glad to have each and every one of you along.

I'm having a great night.

Speaking of football, the Lions won.

Congratulations.

Go Detroit.

And the Tigers won today.

Hot in the AL Wild Card playoff spot.

Joel, this is our year.

So I'm in three fantasy leagues.

I know this is a lot for me.

Wow.

Oh, okay.

So I just realized-

Three?

Yeah, I'm in three.

I already got a family one.

I'm in a church pastors and their kids league.

And then also my work league.

You are, shall I say, enveloped in fantasy.

I know.

And this week, my win probability against my opponent in my family league is good.

My work league, I have...

Oh, this is surprising me because last I looked, I was like, "Not going to win."

You were not going to win.

I was going to win there too.

Okay.

Hold on one more.

This is the church league.

This is the one that really counts.

I have 1% winning.

A 1% chance to win.

You have a 1% chance to win.

I looked after church today and realized that I had some...

I think two or three of my players were out and they'd already been locked in.

That'll do it.

Andy, you got to stay on top of that roster.

Listen, I was doing things at church today.

I couldn't...

You were.

You were serving the Lord today and the...

Were you...

I was doing live stream video.

You're doing live stream video.

Always in the live stream.

Yes.

Gosh, Andy, apart from a real rollercoaster of a fantasy league experience and apart from,

gosh, all of my teams winning today, what else is going on?

You doing okay?

Things going all right?

Doing great.

Doing great.

Yeah.

That was a great weekend.

We had a good time.

So good to be back in the studio.

We were full tilt band parents, marching band parents on Saturday over at the Penn High

School.

I forgot, and I shouldn't have forgot because I too am a recovering band kid.

Because of the size of our school, we tend to play...

We play in the evenings.

So it's like the winter.

Aaron, what time did you guys play?

Like nine o'clock?

Nine o'clock.

Nine o'clock.

Nine p.m.

Nine p.m.

Nine p.m.

Wow.

That's getting close to daddy's bedtime.

Let's be clear.

Right.

Yeah.

So I...

So but it's turned off.

We have to load semis at high school, 3.30 p.m.

Unload 6.30 p.m.

Get everything out.

This was our first time really moving all of this stuff.

I was assigned the band generator.

Because they have a generator out there.

Didn't think of this.

We're back up in case the power fails.

So you can play in the dark.

So they can...

Yeah.

So they can...

Because they've got all their keyboards and all this sort of stuff.

Yes.

So we have all of our new electrical equipment.

Yes.

And that's why we need it.

Got it.

Okay.

So you're in the new electrical age.

They have a new...

Yeah.

So long story short, that generator, to hoist that across multiple parking lots at the high

school was surprisingly difficult.

I'm sure.

Anyway, so I gotta get band fit is what I need to do.

Because Aaron also informed us that he's strongly considering doing what is known as winter

percussion, which all anyone needs to know is it just means I will be pushing more stuff

across parking lots is really what it comes down to.

So anyway, but a good time.

They got first place in their division.

Yeah, it was super great.

So Goshen Crimson Marching Band.

Great job, everybody.

That was super cool.

And so that was...

But that took the whole...

Really the whole Saturday.

Oh, yeah.

Let's call it what it was.

So it was awesome.

Anything for you going on?

New big things?

Exciting things?

Nothing new, except for I'm really enjoying, again, tonight we're streaming into the Zoom

meeting, which anyone can join and have back channel access, backstage access.

Backstage behind the green curtain, if you will.

Yeah.

There's a lot of mystery here at this podcast, and we're letting you in.

Dudesanddads.com/join will get you there every time we're there.

So if you want to join us, dudesanddads.com/join.

But we also want to thank Everence because support for this podcast comes from Reverence,

dedicated to helping make Medicare an easy step through education, seminars, individual

consultations.

Learn more at Everence.com/medicare-monday.

Securities Incorporated offered through Concourse Financial Group, Securities Incorporated,

member FINRA, SIPC.

Nailed it.

I'll give that eventually.

Yeah, well, hey.

FINRA.

FINRA, SIPC.

Hey, and everybody, once again, we want to just thank those of you that have jumped on

the awesome bandwagon so far to support our upcoming technology.

Well, it's our current technology and upcoming technology needs as we are needing a new high

powered, quality high powered laptop to make this the show happen.

All the things.

Right.

Because we currently have one, but it is one we're borrowing from an employer and we're

not going to be able to do that much longer.

And so we...

Andy's current laptop is the last bet.

We have slowly over the last five years actually started using our own.

We've borrowed, initially we borrowed everything.

Right.

Borrowed or...

And thanks to you guys, really, thanks to you guys, we've been able to purchase our

own equipment.

This is the next one and it's a big one.

And we just want to say every dollar helps.

So if you are able to contribute to the Dudes and Dads podcast, new computer fund, make

this show happen fund, don't let us die on the vine fund.

Wow.

You have all sorts of...

I'm working on another capital campaign right now for work and I'm really dialing into the...

The title is important.

Sweet.

So you can join us and help us out at dudesanddads.com/help.

/help.

Dudesanddads.com/help.

Thanks.

Thanks everybody.

All right, Joel.

Hey, we've got...

What's up tonight?

Hey, our friend Darren Schrock is on the show with us and I'm super excited about it.

Let me say, he is a alumni.

He is a Dudes and Dads alumni.

We were just discussing this about when it was because...

Because we have a hard time remembering how long ago guests have been on the show.

Right.

And it was back in '21.

Is that right?

February of 2021.

A long time ago.

So...

When we were barely even...

Probably it was probably not even legal for us to be in the same room together.

I don't even know.

Hi, Darren.

Hey, thanks for being with us, man.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, you...

Fantastic feedback.

Isn't it?

Isn't it?

It is.

We were just...

Well, I mean, it feels like it was six months ago.

Yeah.

That's how everything is.

We were talking about that the other day.

Yeah.

Just go super quick.

Time flies.

Yeah.

I think it's one of those things where we always feel really, really excited when someone

who's been on the show agrees to come back on.

That to me is a sign that we haven't poisoned them to the experience.

That's good.

Also good.

Tonight, we are...

Man, we're diving into this conversation.

And this conversation, as I told Andy, really came...

Darren and I were getting coffee earlier last week.

Again, the days fly by.

And we were having a conversation around... Well, there's multiple... So many things we

talked about.

But one of the things that we talked about was developing... Well, the experience of

either our kids... Encountering our kids on their empathy development journey.

I think that's a nice way of saying it.

Because depending on their age, season of life, gender, and a myriad of other things,

our kids can have varying degrees of empathy.

And that is the ability to enter into someone else's thought world and experiences and emotions.

And I will say, sometimes when talking with your kid and trying to help them understand

how maybe they made someone else feel or how they're making you feel, that feels... It

makes you feel like a crazy person.

And you have this sense that it's important.

The empathy is important.

And the big conversation right now is... And this is, I think, the baseline thing that

I wanted to put out.

And I was checking on this earlier, 'cause I was like... I thought my memory... Again,

the memory slips and it fails.

I thought I was accurate on this.

Really, this is a conversation about emotional intelligence, ultimately.

And emotional intelligence, for those of you that don't know, EQ is the... We gotta have

the abbreviation for it.

That is a big conversation in the workplace.

It's a big conversation also in just leadership development, in our own... The kind of predictors

for success in life in general.

So whenever we're talking about emotional intelligence, those are five core categories

of the makeup of a person's personality and an EQ score or an EQ assessment that you can

do now.

It's really designated as the highest predictor of success in life, and that's career and

otherwise.

So five categories that make up emotional intelligence, self-awareness.

And again, I want you to think through the lens of you as the adult, but then also your

child at whatever life stage that they are, however old they are.

Think about these things.

Developing self-awareness, motivation, self-regulation, social skills, and finally the big one which

we're talking about tonight, empathy.

So those categorically are the things that we as human beings want to develop in order

to be, we could say, global, globally, like responsible citizens, engaged people within

our communities.

And also, if you encounter someone who is an emotionally intelligent person, you know

almost right away, and in general, that you want to be around them more.

And if they are not emotionally intelligent, which we have all met those people as well,

we've perhaps worked with them or maybe had them in our extended families or our social

groups or whatever.

Those are people that... The people with low emotional intelligence are the people that

when my wife says, "Hey, we're doing XYZ tonight, and so-and-so is going to be there, and they

are a low EQ person," I find myself like the energy draining out of my body or having to

like summon a certain energy within myself to go and do that.

Is anybody else with me or am I the only jerk here at this table?

Do we know what I'm talking about?

You know, that person?

Okay.

Great.

So this is...

We're establishing the foundation here.

Emotional intelligence is important.

One of the categories with key categories or subcategories within emotional intelligence

is this empathy thing.

And when we're talking about empathy, we are talking about the action of understanding,

being aware or being sensitive to and vicariously, big word guys, vicariously experiencing the

feelings, thoughts, and experiences of other people.

I think it's important to note too, that's also without taking them on as your own.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you can...

That's a whole different thing.

Right.

And then just bringing them on as your own is something else other than empathy.

The ability, Andy and you and I were talking about, Darren, our challenge is always on

these episodes is like, what's the show title?

'Cause the show title is like the framework for which we build out the conversation.

And Andy was really pushing me.

He's like, "What do you want the show title to be?"

And I was like, "Well, this is kind of like...

It's kind of like helping our kids walk in other people's shoes kind of thing, if you're

talking about that."

I like that.

It seems like that's right, I think.

So, Darren, right now, I'll put you on the spot.

And this is always the fun part 'cause it's like, we'll talk about our kids respectfully,

but inevitably, whenever we're having these conversations, these conversations are informed

by interactions we have had with our kids, either our interpersonal relationship with

them or their relationships with other peers or people they're interacting with.

So right now, and then I wanna have this conversation of our immediate experiences with this here

at this table.

And then I'm gonna throw a little social...

As I like to do on occasion, throw a little social science in here 'cause I came across

a very telling, interesting article about empathy, specifically amongst teenagers, which

will be interesting.

But Darren, I'm wondering, thinking of your family, thinking of conversations you've had

in the past recently, what is the biggest challenge that you feel like you have?

And then I'm gonna share and then Andy can share what his thoughts are.

The biggest challenge you have with just having the conversation with your kids of trying

to get them to understand how another person might be feeling in a situation, to get them

to just enter into that space slightly.

What is hard about...

'Cause it is hard.

From your sense, what is hard about it?

I think at this age, they're trying to create their own identity, right?

And that's a lot of navel-gazing.

What is my identity?

I'm embarrassed.

This is awkward is what I hear a lot, right?

And so they're focused on themselves and probably that's a healthy thing to do.

I need to figure out myself.

And so that's the focus of their mind most of their day, if we're honest.

And so empathy requires them to put that aside and say, "Oh, this is how this person feels

and this is how I made them feel."

Whether that's me or their mom or their sibling or like you said, with friends.

And I think that getting them to kind of step away from that and kind of step out of themselves

is the biggest challenge that I've seen in our house.

That makes a lot of sense.

Just think for just a second how that might impact somebody.

This is a...

And just as Darren said, I was thinking about this the other day.

In their middle school and high school years, it is a uniquely self-focused time.

Even just think about two kind of circles that they exist, that our people can exist

in.

So academic circle.

So what am I going to do to get certain academic outcomes that I am required to do that mom

and dad are expecting of me and that school administrators, whatever.

So I need to do good on this test, these exams, this class or whatever.

So what do I need to do?

What can I do?

What can I get away with?

What can I not get away with?

That's a part of self-focus that is a little bit built into the system that they're in.

That's a part of it.

And learning that they are being compared against their peers in certain regards to

that.

That's reality.

And that's unfortunately or unfortunately, that is a part of life that they will continue

to experience for the next several years and also into whatever they decide to do for profession

or whatever it is.

And then also extracurricular activities too.

So sports, athletics, I mean, they might start off in those places as we do with whatever,

T-ball, we're not keeping score.

All the kids get to bat.

But eventually it's like you will or will not make the team.

And that is going to be determined by how much a certain level of focus and things that

you're accomplishing within yourself to either be a part or not be a part of that group of

people.

So in terms of that, that's a self-focus.

What do I need to do?

I, I, I, what do I need to do?

And I wonder, and Darren, I don't know if what your family, the conversation has been

around this, I feel like this is maybe not a strong point for us, probably not a strong

point for us and our family.

In light of the fact that there's this kind of system of self-focus and reasonable self-focus

at this kind of developmental time, how, like, what are your thoughts as far as just like

mom and dad trying to figure out, okay, how do we interject other non self-focused experiences

into their life at this time?

Like to, to, I'm not saying counteract, but to bow, to bring balance.

Cause I think that's part of the empathetic journey a little bit is to help, like you

said, help us step back a little bit, help us have a little bit larger, you know, maybe,

you know, maybe it's not a two foot perspective.

Maybe we can get up to 10 feet.

I don't know.

He did somewhere a little bit above, above the, you know, above the plane.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't know if you have any, just to have any kind of experience with the thoughts about

like either intentional, most of the stuff that we do is like by accident and we realized

like, Oh, hopefully that was helpful.

Just in terms of introducing our kids to yeah, just not, not being so self focused all the

time.

Cause I feel like, I feel like I should figure that out.

And I'm not to cut you off, but I think that's tough too, because yeah, I mean, like you'd

mentioned, you know, kids at that age are trying to figure out who their own identity is.

A lot of them is self focused because they're trying to figure out who they are and what

they stand for and all of that stuff.

So I think, yeah, that's a, that's a tough one.

So Darren, take it away.

Yeah.

I can tell you what definitely does not work.

Perfect.

Just perfect telling them this is what's going on.

You're being selfish right now.

And I need you to stop.

I need you to stop doing that.

No, I, I think part of what we focus on as a family is to, is to have them just have

interactions with other kids as much as possible.

I honestly think that the more they're in front of a screen talking to each other, unless

they're able to see that.

And so it's, I kind of grumble at how much we're driving our kids around to hang out

with other friends and I will grumble until they have their own license.

But at the same time, I have to remind myself that this is how they figure it out.

You have to be around other kids cause they're going to mess up because their friends mess

up too.

I mean, they're just their kids and they're going to fumble through it and there have

been those moments and thankfully, you know, and thankfully sometimes they want to talk

to us about it and we can kind of talk through it.

But you know, it's, it's, I think also just them learning that life sometimes does not

go out as planned and that they mess up too.

And we can talk through that.

I think learning about it yourself and seeing your own faults is helpful to understand that,

Oh, somebody else is going to feel the same.

I went through that and I can figure out and my kids are seeing older kids reach out to

them and say, Hey, I know you're feeling this way cause I felt that way.

And they're not only learning how to interact with their peers, but they're learning that

once I'm older, I can also reach out to younger kids and say, Hey, I went through that too.

So it was so funny.

I'm glad you said that Aaron got a text message from one of the senior band leaders on the

way over here and it was, and I, I plant, I plan on sending a very, very nice text message

to the parent of this high school senior because it was a big deal.

It just, just thinking Aaron for that in band together and just thinking Aaron for his,

his help and just kind of the intent intentionality that he brought you know, kind of above and

beyond sort of things this past weekend.

And I, I was so number one, I was so impressed by that.

Any time a high school student just that who's older recognizes the impact that they can

have.

That's that's, I love that.

It's super cool.

Brings kind of their perspective up a little bit and encourages them to, I think it's funny

cause it's like, yeah, I know those kind words went went way farther than some of my, some

of my encouragement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of course you're going to say, but yeah, this, but this, this outside voice was just so immensely

encouraging.

It was really, really good to see.

So I love, I love when those sort of things happen.

And another thing I, and I, gosh, Jackie and I had this conversation that day.

She brought it to my attention when she said, she asked the question about, she's like,

you know, when you and I were kids, we hung out with other kids seemingly a lot more.

She's like, is this just my perspective?

She's like, cause, cause I, I like our two youngest kids are, are way more, it feels

a little bit more like social and hang out with friends, but they have friends that are

right in our neighborhood.

So there's like a little bit of an ease, you know,

I was just going to say that too, cause you know, my kids, I think, you know, we live

out in the country, so it's hard for us to have that where they're hanging out necessarily.

And now they are, I mean, they, they will go after youth group and go to Culver's or

whatever and they'll go to different places like that.

You have to use group, but I don't think nearly as much like we were, I was riding my bike

across town.

Like I was always with somebody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's an interesting point.

Yeah.

I think, and well, and now with texting too, I mean, yeah, they'll say we're around people,

but you know, cause I've seen them like this the whole time texting, but yeah, the, I just,

I thought it was really, I just thought it was a really interesting idea that Darren

connected.

I think it's really interesting that you're with you on this.

It's kind of like aha connecting, spending face to face meaningful time with other kids

and being able to put yourself in the position of other people.

And that if you're doing that by proxy instead through, through a screen or through electronic

form, that it actually can, there's gotta be research about this, like deadening our

empathy toward people.

Well depending on how we're interacting.

I think that is true because I mean, obviously we've seen it as adults, right?

On Facebook, you can do a one-on-one when you're with somebody we're pleasant and whatever,

but then on Facebook you see it and they're right over the stupidest things, right?

We don't have, we don't cause it's always like, well, I'm behind the screen.

I don't have the accountability, even though they know who I am and they see my name, it's

still easier to get into fights where if I was in real life with this person, they probably

wouldn't say the same things to me face to face.

Right.

I think that has something to do with empathy because it's harder to feel, it's harder to

feel for people when you're there behind a screen.

Yeah.

It really is.

That's, that's good.

I'm hoping that they can figure it out just as a generation that has grown up with it.

I'm hoping they can kind of figure that out because it's interesting that I, my experience

with that, what you're, what you're talking to referring to is, is with adults who didn't

have screens in sight.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know how that's going to go.

I feel like it's an experiment that we're in the midst of right now.

Absolutely.

Right.

I think that that is true because you are right there.

And like we, we all didn't grow up with screens, you know, for the most part.

And so for us now it's easiest to hide behind the screen, but what's that going to be?

And that may have to do too with when you give your kids screen, you know, as far as

that goes.

So that may be an interesting experience too, to see if that matters when, when they got

their screen.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, so yeah, there's kind of this baseline value of empathy and, and just saying, okay,

empathy is important because it's directly connected to flourishing, just doing well

in life, both now and in, into the future of future adulthood.

If you learn empathy and under and understand empathy, well more is going to go right for

you than it goes wrong relationally speaking.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's interesting.

So I'm in the process right now of being trained as a Steven minister.

Oh yeah.

And so there are a lot of that.

We are talking about like empathy and learning that.

And so even us as adults, like are having to learn that, right.

And go over that and how to, how to, how to have that.

That's a perfect segue, Andy, because I'm sure this is part of your conversation and,

and forgive me, cause the Steven ministry thing is about like, about like eight years

in the eight years ago for me, but the upon understanding empathy, then the, how to actually

rightly empathize with a person, not taking on their, their full perspective and knowing

that we really can't ever fully do that.

You can empathize with somebody without, without necessarily agreeing.

And that's one of the things we talk about a little bit is the whole idea of you can

empathize with somebody without necessarily agreeing with them.

You know, you can, you can see their side, you can empathize with them, but not necessarily

be like, yes, you're right.

And I think some people have, have trouble seeing that.

And, but I think it's important to teach our kids that right.

Because there may be friends that, that they don't see eye to eye on, but it's okay to

empathize with them.

And it's okay to, yeah, because I think the tendency, tell me what you guys think the

tendency for our, for our kiddos is, is when they are, are sideways relationally with someone

or they don't agree with someone is to do the opposite of empathy.

Like it's, it's like a hard, like, like they're, they're dead to me and, and, and not necessarily

like, I don't, you know, I'm saying that kind of in a harsh way, but it's a, might there

be an assumption that if they don't agree with a person, then they're not obligated

to be empathetic toward them.

Is that, is that maybe what happens?

I don't know.

It probably happened, I mean, it happens with me with an adult as an adult, maybe, but with

them probably, I don't know.

Cause it's, cause maybe they don't have the cat, like I, again, and some child psychologists

could tell me, but just maybe they don't have the categories exactly to be like, okay, how

do I, and this is a major life skill.

How do I recognize that what they did or what they're doing or what they're promoting is

not something that I agree with.

And yet I need to be able to enter in to some degree to, to a place of understanding, well,

maybe here's how they got there or here's how they, cause again, this feels like kind

of a life skill that is really important for any of us when trying to, I mean, conflict

resolution or any of that.

I just, I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking about like how, how my kids talk about other

kids with whom they disagree on a particular topic with and maybe there's something to

that, I guess.

So as a parent, how do we, how do we help teach our kids that?

I mean, I think, I mean, I think experience goes a long way, right?

Like, I think you said there, and when like walking alongside of them and being like,

Hey, maybe you could, you know, like kind of explain to them like other, not, maybe

not explain is not, maybe not the right word, but show them or point them out that, Hey,

maybe this person XYZ, maybe the reason they're doing this is X, Y, you know, maybe that's

not the case too, but you know, just kind of point out there's more than just what meets

the eye and the immediate situation.

Like all you see is they may have backstabbed you and talked about you to your friends and

now there's an issue, but there may be something else going on there.

So like, how, how do you guys, Darren, I'll pick on you.

How do you, how would you explain that to your kids?

I well, and I'm not a child psychologist.

Sure.

Yeah.

Right.

I think, well, when I think about what makes it easier is a certain amount of self esteem

or a certain amount of self assurance, right?

Because when, when a child, when we're automatically enemies and therefore I'm, I'm not a part

of your group, I think it takes a certain amount of self assurance to be able to say,

uh, I can, I can, I can not identify with you, but also put myself in your shoes and

I'm not worried about jockeying for, I'm in this group or I'm a part of that group, which

is really difficult at that, at this age.

And so, and that is, I think self esteem just plays a huge role in that, at least from what

in my, even in my own personal experience.

Right.

Because you have to be pretty comfortable in your own skin.

How you implement that in a child is right.

Well it's, I think it's, I think it's different for us adults because we know, we know who

we, we know who we are, right?

We know we're, we're, there's not that, that clicks that groups of people, those things

that if you do something wrong, then you're going to be made fun of by the whole school.

Right?

Like most of the time I'm not going to get made fun of by my whole work employee.

You know, I might maybe a little bit, but right.

Not the whole thing.

And even as an adult, you kind of get that skill of letting that roll off your back.

Right.

I think, I don't know if that's a skill or a detriment, but you have that.

And as kids, you don't necessarily have that.

I mean, I remember times of it's hard.

Like there's this choice, there's this kid who's maybe not the most popular kid and he's

being picked on or like, how do you, how do you have empathy for that?

How do you, how do you do that without going, Oh, I'm standing up for him.

I'm going to be made fun of.

Like there's that, there's that conscious, like fighting in your head to do what's right.

Yep.

Yeah.

And I think so, Darren, I think what you said is, is perfect.

Like that self-esteem that self knowing who you are outside of everybody in your classroom

helps go a long way.

Yeah.

And I, and I, and I don't take, it's really easy, especially with four kids.

It's really easy to see all the ways that your kids don't do the right thing.

That's what you focus on a lot of times, but I think, and I need to do this more, right?

There's they should hear more about who they are from us than we are not.

And that's a challenge for me.

That's probably one of my worst, worst aspects as a father, but that is something that I

think speaking that into them and saying, this is, this is who you are.

And then feeling comfortable to say, okay, you know, I, when they show up and it, and

the rubber hits the road, they can be that person that stands up in that kid.

Yes.

And cause I've seen my children do it again.

You see that it's taking the time to stop and say, Hey, I saw how you did that.

And that was fantastic.

Yeah.

And I think they hear that more than anything else.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Cheering on.

And again, this is going to sound like super non-scientific, but there's, there's a lot

of good evidence around the idea that if you want, if you want to affect positive behavior,

key in on the positives, talk that up, act like one of my favorite and like, this is

a, he's a, we'll call it a not safe for work sort of you know, media mobile business middle

Gary Vaynerchuk.

Like I spend a lot of time listening to Gary V. He uses the F word a whole lot.

So that's why I just have the, the pause on that.

And he, you know, he, he talks about immigrant immigrant family that came from Belarus just,

you know, his dad, he was helping run his dad's store, like from very, very early age.

It was, it's one of these, you know, these kind of these stories of like started from

nothing.

They build a business.

It was just, but it was like night and day hard, hard work.

And, and he, people are always like, what makes you tick?

He's like, I have an out of control self-esteem.

Like there's like out of, and he's in there in this whole conversation, he goes, because

my mother, every time I would do something that was like morally correct, like to, you

know, took the right road on something.

She would celebrate it like it was like over, just over the top, acknowledging it.

Right.

And, and so I just became this kid that was like, not just minorly confident in doing

the right thing, but like very confident in doing the right thing.

Like it is all doing the right thing is always the right choice.

It will always be the correct way to go.

You know, just, and that cemented that into him.

So that when he went off into future life and again, started his own company and all

that from, from nothing and was doing things like doing things like you, if you guys, if

you can think about this, doing like wine reviews on YouTube before anybody was doing

anything like using YouTube as a platform for like before people were doing that and

like had like, you know, just a few people watching, like it was like, you know, whatever

and just stuck it out.

And now it's like, that's a whole other thing.

So he passes that on too.

I mean, I mean, interactions he has with, he does it for other people, which is really

cool.

You get 30 minutes with him in a room, you walk out of that room, you honestly think

you're like, I can take on the world, like I am, I have everything I need to do this.

And so that's the, uh, gosh, that's going to be, that's going to stick out in my head

here.

I think like, I need, I really need connecting this with empathy.

Like I really need to be instilling that level of confidence in my kids to kind of, cause

it's a little bit of the, it's kind of the gas that, that the engine runs on.

I think that's, I think that's what's happening.

So you guys, you know, listen, we just, we sit here, we talk long enough, actually, actually

figure out what's going on.

So, so I think too, like as parents, it's good for us to have empathy for our kids too,

because I know how many times that I've, I've come home and like, there's something out

in the yard or something that I'm just like, and I immediately probably know who the, who

the culprit is, but like for one, I can't jump to those conclusions.

I shouldn't jump to those conclusions, but are you right?

90% of the time?

Yes, you are.

No, but I mean, even empathy, like I don't know what was going on.

Like, I don't know, maybe he had did, you know, did something and then got called away.

Like I can't go in and be right mad at him.

But the, or her, or her, or her, but the other thing I was thinking too, Joel is when you

were talking about Gary V and having that like positive, positive, positive, positive,

positive.

I also have heard and experienced like the idea of when you're going to give criticism

to do that criticism sandwich, right?

That like positive, like whatever.

Love how you're doing this.

Would just like to see more here, but remember also just doing great, positive things that

need to correct it.

Just like when I bring my staff in for the year, for their annual review, you're doing

great, but we don't want you to work here anymore.

No, no, thank goodness.

I'm not, not having any of those conversations.

Yes.

And the, you know, the challenge, and this is, this was part of the conversation Darren

and I had earlier over coffee was the older I get, or there seems like to be at a season

where I have, I'm having a harder time putting myself in my kids' shoes.

Absolutely.

That, that is where at 25 me remembering what it was like to be a 13 year old, that's a

lot easier at 40 plus I pointed in the end when I said 40 plus, I'm sorry if you guys

didn't get the visual joke.

It's okay.

It should be the both of us.

I'm over 40.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So at 40 at 40 and beyond like when I'm talking to my 14 year old, it's, it's kind of like,

I recognize the value of trying to like put, okay, like, okay, I want to understand and

be able to speak rightly to whoever challenge they're going through right now, but I am

probably pretty quick to dismiss like the love, the level of intensity or severity because

why do you think that is?

Well, because I know that in the end it's going to be okay.

I know that it's good.

I gotcha.

I gotcha.

So you're saying you have less empathy for them.

It because, well, I stand, I stand to, I, it is possible that I would have less empathy

because my older adult perspective, I can convince myself, which this is not correct

at all because the fact that I know that their current situation is going to be just fine

does not excuse me from rightly entering into it lovingly and rightly entering into their

and into their world and trying to put myself in their shoes a little bit.

I just think it, knowing what we know as adults or people who have lived longer, it's just

easy to kind of like side trip, like take a side route and be like, and be like, be

like, yeah, yeah, I could feel bad for you right now and ever, but here's the deal in

like a week.

This is not going to matter.

When you wake up.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think that was just, I know as we were talking, that was kind of like a, okay, to

what degree do I need to be able to return to that, that space?

Cause I feel it getting more, I need to number one, acknowledge it is getting more difficult.

There's a, or at least right now it feels like there's a season of like, I really have

to put forth a pretty considerable amount of energy to like get my, find myself in this

place where I can like appropriately, not, not, not like overly sore or anything over

the top, but appropriately come alongside of you and say, yeah, I see how you feel.

I see how that would, I see how that would be tough.

I, and you know, oh, I, and I understand why you're feeling this way.

I think sometimes for, for let's just say us guys, cause that's the three of us are

talking are guys.

Yeah.

For those of us who have girls, sometimes that can be hard too, because we, we, I mean,

if we're doing empathy, correct, I don't think it does, but sometimes it does cause we just

don't understand.

There's lots of different things at play.

We've never experienced that.

We were never a girl growing up.

And hormones are different and lots of things are different.

And so for us as guys, sometimes it is hard to do it.

So I mean, let's talk about that.

Like how, how do we, how do we be empathetic with maybe the opposite sex of who we are

versus, I want to get, I want to get Darren's honest opinion on this.

Cause I'm wondering because Darren has older, older girls.

Mine is only eight.

So I'm still, she's eight and I feel like her and I maybe have at times the best mind

meld connection.

And I'm not sure what that says about me, but like you get your Taylor Swift on to where

she is funny.

Cause that was on her request playlist as we were driving earlier today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I almost made the joke to her about like Molly, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure how I feel about you playing like your playlist consisting mostly of a

person who just talks about their bad decisions all the time.

Now they're here.

They love her.

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

So, but Darren, have you felt, I'm, how have you navigated that?

Have you felt that tension of the trying to place yourself in the position and it's, you

know, it's a quote unquote girl thing or, or whatever, or have you just immediately

said, go talk to your mother.

I mean, that's cause that you free pass asked an answer.

No, no, that's, it's interesting to me.

I almost have a harder time.

Well, I don't take, I take more time to try and understand them just because I don't,

I just, yeah, it's actually kind of an advantage for them because I'm sitting there trying

to figure this out how they're feeling about it.

Whereas with, with boys, I have a, I feel like I know you have a perspective.

So I'm like, yeah, when you were talking about doing the end around, that's, that's all day.

Like, yeah, no, I get it.

I've been, yeah.

Okay.

Let's figure this out.

So it's almost like a, yeah.

And I, and I, I think, yeah, for the girls, you know, I like to say they'll break your

heart and they'll melt your heart, you know, and they will absolutely just preparing, preparing

you.

Yeah.

And I, I almost feel, and for whatever reason I mean, of course I care about them equally,

but there's something different about when a girl breaks down and is struggling.

I don't know what it is for me.

It's just like, I just melt.

Yeah.

And with my sons, I'll be like, Hey, come on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like get some dirt on it.

If I get it together, we're going to be fine.

You know?

And that's a bias in myself.

I'm sure.

I share it too.

I had a conversation with my two oldest boys today about, about how their football injuries

in my opinion, they took too long to recover.

They needed to get back out there sooner.

Like just, I will never say that to Molly probably ever, probably ever will.

I'd be like, listen, you need to, yeah, you need to rub some dirt on it.

Probably not.

Yeah.

That's, that's interesting.

Now do I, now do I understand them?

Probably not.

Yeah.

No, they probably, they probably agree, but it's, you know, I think.

I also want to model something for them.

I think that's part of it is I want to model something for them in who they should look

for in the future.

I want them to find somebody who will sit down and listen and we'll hear.

I mean, I don't do this every time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

That would just be possible.

But for the most part, if they really break down, I'll, Oh my gosh, that's my heartstrings.

And in shot girls, if you're listening, we just want to be very clear.

We don't think you're breaking down regularly to your father, but we're sure you're very,

we know you're, it's just, it's just your dad.

It's just your dad feels, yeah, your dad feels a more immediate sense of like actually giving

you time.

I'm giving away secrets here.

They don't know that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well again, welcome behind the green curtain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, yeah, golly.

I'm going to go ahead and, you know, that, that is, that is the case.

So this is, this was a little, just to tag the same, cause we always love a little bit

of social science and every, well, I never ever said sometimes there's zero science in

any of our so a frontier in frontiers in psychology magazine, October, 2022 issue did this whole,

this whole study did a lengthy study on the development of empathy amongst teenagers.

So this was, and they studied the study was actually, I think 11 to it's like 11 to eight,

18 year olds and then on into adulthood.

So this is the interesting thing that empathy.

So empathy begins to show up in kids somewhere around age four in their, in their development.

So some sense that they can identify through facial expressions and voice tone and things

like that.

They can identify how someone else is feeling and they're like, Oh, I, they make a connection

with that to some degree.

Again, that's kind of a really broad brush stroke.

So what was interesting about the study though, is it, it showed that empathy levels, I think

we're going to really identify with this.

So empathy levels between the age of so they, their study, so I'll just say amongst males

and this is the numbers are not going to really mean anything to you, but it'll help you for

scale.

So empathy level amongst boys, 11 to 12 was right at about a, we'll call it a, Oh gosh,

60.

It was at a 64 when they, when empathy levels amongst 13 to 14 year old boys plummeted down

to 54.

So they actually became less empathetic in those years.

And then it's a slow gradual uptick kind of 15 on through adulthood.

It's just kind of a gradual upward upward line in that, in that direction.

And interesting.

I think that there, and this, I think this ties into stage of life and kind of the self-focus

sort of thing.

It might help some of our listeners to know this seems to be a natural kind of biological

psych psychological process.

So that if all of a sudden your kids feel like real, real, real selfish, little whatevers

right around that early teenage year, this is, this is what happens.

And I, I, it's funny at what I've noticed.

I have to be really careful here cause I don't want to say anything that's going to pinpoint

one child, but there is a child who is trying to, I think I remember, and some of this I

do remember is trying to figure out what am I capable of?

And I could see how that would entail not being really empathetic with other people

because you're trying to figure out how much pain can I inflict on a human being or, you

know, whatever.

And I, and I would just like pushing that limit of like, yeah.

And by the way, by the way, I think it's really absolutely necessary.

This is a really, I don't know how controversial the statement is.

I think it is.

I think it is necessary in our development particularly as men to understand how capable

we are of harming other people like and to, and to actually legitimately be capable of

it.

Sure.

Cause, cause by the way, all your good deeds don't, don't matter Jack, if you weren't able

to do something, the complete, the complete opposite, right?

If you're just, if you're just a, a real lollygagger you know if you're not a, if you do not have

the potential for serious harm to another person, then you being, you being kind or

nice or whatever to a person isn't much of a accomplishment.

But if you're like, if you're like a fierce dude and you, and you are gentle and loving

and all of that, that's a whole, like that's a, that's a man, right?

Like that is, you're choosing to be good at that point.

You have, you have made a decision.

So you're saying we should go out and be mean.

I'm not.

I'm not.

Empathetically.

I'm not.

I think, I think we should be rate cash this and, and this is the danger.

Yeah, yeah.

This is the danger, right?

This is where we say something that people are gonna take wrong.

So is hardly ever controversial, but here, here it is.

I, yes.

So I think that process though is extremely valuable.

Sure.

Right.

But again, recognizing like it is wrought with peril at that, you know, at every, at

every level.

So there's, there's the, there's the track for our boys.

Okay.

This, this is what they found in this, the study girls, surprise, surprise.

So they start at their, their watermark starts at a, at a higher degree of empathy to begin

with.

So they started like a 64 girls started like a, well, they had them at like a, an, on average,

almost a 70.

Their empathy showed like went from like a 70 to a 71 between ages 12 and 13 and 13 and

then did not decline their decline though.

It was a decline was far less severe down like two points at, at ages 15 to 16.

So they were delayed a couple of years in their, their, their downward and then basically

match the exact same trajectory as boys post post 16 like going, going into younger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There we go.

Always, always higher, but always higher.

Surprise surprise.

So really what we are, I mean, while we are talking about both our girls and our boys

and raising them there, there's a difference here.

There's a difference.

Which okay.

And we can just say this, it's very clear that our boys and our girls are wired differently

in this, in this area.

Like that's, I think that's a pretty apparent thing.

But but at least, I don't know, sometimes when you just have this sense of like, oh,

there is a season where their ability to put themselves in other people's shoes does decrease

a little bit and it has something to do with their, just their stage of development as

as an adolescent.

So so you take a deep breath, mom and dad, take a deep breath and just know that is,

that is par for the course in, in their life development.

Knowing that in general, if you don't, if something really traumatic doesn't happen

to them, the by and large, they will then begin as they will begin this upward trajectory

of developing that empathetic skill and hopefully developing a wider range of emotional intelligence

and those all those categories as they get into young adulthood.

So if you so if you are as we are in that 14 to 16 year old range, we all have kiddos

there.

Just know that your work is worth it, but you're going to feel the pushback.

You're going to feel the pushback.

You're going to feel the tension.

I do have a question.

Yeah, you guys.

So I wonder if you were talking about how it can be difficult to empathize a little

bit and thinking back, is there any fear that you have in empathizing and encouraging the

wrong thing?

Yeah.

So because I think that's a rub.

Yeah.

Right.

You want to be careful not to empathize to the point where you're approving or encouraging

them because I need to remain and I need to remain the adult.

Yes.

Right.

There's there's the there's a real there's a real dark side of this.

And I I'm going to explain as I often do, like super hyperbolic, just to make the point.

So I go hard one direction.

The parent that is kind of crawling up on the couch with their with their kiddo every

time and just entering into their full meltdown.

And I'm not and I'm not saying don't be loving and don't be sympathetic.

Right.

But who is actually taking on the persona of another young person.

So this is where you're not really being empathetic, but you're you're taking on this is the unhealthy,

which is what you were touching on with the with on the Stephen minister side things.

Yeah.

The we need ahead.

Yes.

I think we need ahead of time, a little bit of a guardrail or a like, okay, because because

I think when they see me as the adult entering kind of emotionally and mentally in the same

spot that they are, that is, that is kind of a cart that can be a carte blanche kind

of a license for immaturity.

Because, oh, oh, this trusted adult person is becoming less mature with me.

They're choosing to be less mature with me right along alongside me, whether that is

your intention or not.

That is that is, I think, by and large, how it is how it is perceived.

This is why side note.

If you're if your kids are in youth group, and the reason that they like their youth

pastor is because he acts like they do, red flag, red flag, or any any adult that is having

that is having who is just the coolest.

And why are they so cool?

Well, you find out they're cool, because they're not emotionally challenging them at all.

And they're kind of right entering into their youth space as an adult.

That's that's not helpful for them either.

They they will like that in the immediate sense.

And they will look back on that later and be like, that was a missed opportunity.

So I think that's, that's the that's the one one dangerous side, because then the other

is what we've been talking about is a complete, like, complete dismissal of of their feelings,

complete dismissal of it.

Listen, this is not a big deal.

You need you need to get it together.

You need to summon all of those emotional skills that are clearly not developed within

you yet, and you need to be an adult, get your emotional time machine and act 20 years

older and, and move and move on with that is the that's the other I think another unhealthy

side.

So the I just I don't want to be one of the I'm not.

I'm not one of the one of the dudes, right?

I'm not I'm not one of the these.

I'm not one of these.

I'm not a teenager.

I'm the dude.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So that's what you call me.

But yeah, I think those that I don't know that definitely an answer to the questions,

but that's that's what I'm I think in my interaction, I'm thinking of those tube polar opposites.

I'm thinking of the two digits, the ditches on either side of that and saying, boy, find

the road in between there as best as as best as possible.

And then and then surround yourself with people like hopefully that I have in my life who

are going through the same thing and can tell me if if I'm being an idiot or if like if

it's like, oh, my my approach is is reasonable.

And again, as we say again and again, I think we're talking about on this show, we're always

talking about it kind of in a little bit of a vacuum apart from the reality.

Look, we all know like chances are good that I'm going to be required to be empathetic

with my child after I've had the longest day of the entire month.

And we have a ballgame to get to in 10 minutes.

And you know, oh, and oh, the gas tanks on E because we're taking your mom's car.

And that's a low gas gauge joke because my wife always gives me the say we have to acknowledge

that.

We just I'm just gonna be honest in my marriage.

That's usually my fault.

Is it the other way around?

Yeah.

OK.

OK.

Yeah.

It's me.

It's like Jake is like, why don't you take the van?

I was like, OK, no problem.

There's the light.

There's like, no, no.

So yes, our our our conversation here is obviously like, oh, this is the thing that we're striving

and moving toward.

However, it feels like so often.

I don't know about you guys, but these conversations are not held like, hey, we just finished dinner.

Get a little bit of time.

Let's all sit down.

Let's just have a talk.

How are things going?

Seems like you had a rough day.

Tell me about.

Yeah, that's.

I, I cannot think of the last time that that was really the scenario in which we had the

we had we had the conversation and and that is part that is part due to a boy that the

child.

For kiddos and.

A lot going on and they're they're involved in the things and they're trying to be social

and we're trying to we're trying to urge that, encourage that and all that.

I mean, we'll have time and space for.

Oh, needed needed conversations for sure.

And now it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz.

Ray, did you recently record that?

Not recently.

That feels like it was.

It's newer than the one newer than the one we had originally.

It's been a while.

We should we should we should all get them in because because all their voices have changed.

OK, time to do.

Wrong one.

Oh, that's not one of our kids.

I was thinking this one.

Let's be in.

Let's be in.

That's an old one, but that's how they went to.

Thank you, honey.

May get one where they're where the voice cracks.

That's right.

At some point.

Yeah, that's that's got to be out there.

I hope so.

That's all right.

So if you've never joined us, the pop quiz is just when we pepper Darren with questions

that have nothing to do with empathy.

Yeah, I may be feeling some empathy for him at the end of this.

Nice.

Yeah, good.

Are you ready, Joel?

I'm ready.

Go ahead and ask your first one.

OK, Darren, of of your six family members.

Who is most likely to survive the longest come the zombie apocalypse?

There's a lot to take into consideration.

My oldest daughter.

Yes.

OK.

And why?

Oh, she's so calculated.

Oh, oh, oh, oh.

She is very methodical.

She's very well.

She's three steps ahead of everyone.

Nice.

Nice.

So she will.

So congratulations.

Congratulations.

Joeline would just want it over with.

She would just.

We've had this conversation.

No joke.

We've had this conversation.

I, I wouldn't.

So I've always had this thought.

Like if you're if you are stockpiled.

Yes.

And you think you're going to survive a zombie apocalypse.

You've got to be prepared to kill somebody else.

Right.

Sorry, we're getting a little.

Yeah.

But you got to be able to do things that nobody else like that.

That's correct.

Are not willing.

That is absolutely correct.

I am not willing to do that.

Yeah.

And neither is Joanna.

Yeah.

So we were actually my oldest is.

But hopefully you've raised children that are willing to do.

We were actually just talking about something similar, not as a zombie apocalypse, but we

were watching Survivor before I came over and both Julie and I said, I just couldn't

do this.

Like, yeah, I could.

I could probably do the physical challenge, but the like calculated lying and mental like

that.

Yeah, that like that.

We just couldn't do it.

Yeah, it's hard.

It's hard.

I get it.

OK, and you go for it.

All right, Darren, what's your favorite gadget?

Oh, man.

I have a I just got this recently.

I have it's kind of a love hate relationship with this new alarm clock.

Oh, yeah.

OK.

And it turns on light and it starts with light.

And so your body kind of reacts to the light before you hear that noise that.

Yes.

And I you know, I thought it was going to be this thing that I was going to like, oh,

I'm going to wake up so refreshed and ready to go because it's light.

It's the same feeling.

I still hit this news every time.

Snus is hit three times, whether it's that or just a regular alarm.

But I do appreciate it.

Nice.

Darren, what book apart from the Bible, I have to say, what book should Andy and I be

reading right now?

Oh.

Man.

I'm so something that I've gotten back into is fasting.

You talked about this.

Yeah.

And I started reading God's chosen fast.

Oh.

And there's so I always thought this was pretty straightforward.

Like you just don't eat.

But there's there's like layers to this, that this book does a fantastic job of opening

up.

That's what I'm reading right now anyway.

So amongst other things, but to help to help you to substantiate your choices not to eat

is that like you're like you're like you needed some backup on this.

You're like, I'm going to do this, but I need I need something to tell me that this is OK.

I honestly I need a little more depth to it.

Perfect.

Yeah.

I mean, it's kind of makes it a little more interesting.

Yeah.

Look for.

Yeah.

Because otherwise it's an opportunity for sure.

It is.

That's great.

All right.

If you had someone following you around all day, not in a creepy way.

What would you have them do?

So they're like, just they're like an assistant, like a personal assistant, just follows you

around.

Got it.

I think I would I think they would have to laugh at my jokes because, you know, nobody

else is.

I'd have to.

I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry.

I feel that I empathize with that.

I tell every day that my kids don't laugh at and they are fantastic jokes.

They are quality.

Such a waste.

Matthew, my 11 year old.

No, that it seemed like a really weird joke for him to tell me, but he's like, suddenly

goes, dad, do you know?

He goes, dad, do you know why?

Do you know why white girls can't count to eight?

Oh no.

I was like, what?

No.

He's like, cause they can't even.

And then I died.

I died laughing.

I died laughing.

And I was like, and then I did a little, I'm like a little inventory and I'm like, now

did I die laughing at that?

Because the joke itself was all that funny.

No, I died laughing because he was the one that was saying that was the one really funny.

I would not expect him to exactly totally caught me off guard.

My final question would be Darren, what is the, what's, what's the tastiest thing that

you have eaten within the last month?

Oh, let's hope his wife made it.

Let's see.

It was.

Okay, good.

Oh good.

So, so, so glad.

She's, you know, I don't know if you know this, we, we went plant based about five years

ago, which makes this, I'm sorry.

I'm not going to be invited back.

I was already saying, just draw the line through it.

No, you won't be invited to our, our summer cookout.

Okay.

You went plant based.

Cookouts are a challenge.

I will say that.

You gotta be those people, you know, we brought our own vegan burger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We might've eaten a meal before we showed up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you went plant based.

Got it.

Yeah.

So all that judgment aside, it was for health reasons.

It's it's yeah.

I'm sure that whatever you did was a wise calculated decision.

We're not here.

We're not here to, I mean, I've got empathy for you.

Gosh, so much empathy.

You're about the only one everybody else.

Like why would you?

But yes.

Uh huh.

So she makes a, it's a tofu, lettuce and tomato sandwich.

That is fantastic.

Okay.

So the, the key is the soy sauce.

Ah, yes.

Gotcha.

So you make like a nice Patty of tofu.

It's a little burnt and you're looking at it.

I want to believe Jolene.

I want to believe this.

I really, really do.

I want to believe this.

I want to, I, cause I, I'm picking up on his sincerity and earnestness and all of this.

Totally, totally sincere.

I think he really legitimately believes that.

Um, and because you guys have not always been plant based, so I know that you have a memory

of what, what eating actual meat tastes like.

So okay.

You know what?

I'm here for the ribbing.

It's totally, no, no.

I'm uh, here's, here's the funny thing.

And this is, well, I'll, I'll say this one thing and then, and this is the only serious

thing I'll say about it is when you can't use me, you have to be really creative with

your food.

Cause, and so some of the best food I've had has been on the plant based world.

Yeah.

And I would say just, gosh, I even, I hesitate to say this.

There was a time in my life where I don't know how to say this in a way that is not

gonna, my wife is going to jump all over me for this.

And so I want to say there was a time in my life when I had relationships with individuals

that were, that were like, be like, we're had vegan diets.

Okay.

And I ate what they ate predominantly and I will, and I will, and I will sit like at

their main meals or whatever when I was like visiting with them or whatever.

And I will say it was delicious.

Like there were, there were flavor profiles and things like that that I had never tasted

before that were, that were really, really good.

The problem was I was, I was hungry 30 minutes later.

So you do have to eat way more.

That's what a lot of people, yeah.

A lot of people make the mistake of one, they don't eat enough.

And two, they're, they just aren't, you have, it takes time to get used to some of the foods.

Black beans.

Everybody needs time to get used to black beans.

That's a quote.

That's a quote.

Everyone, everyone, give it a couple of weeks.

Just give it, give it time.

Give it time.

Okay.

Darren, you successfully, I think you successfully fast.

Yes, he did.

We did.

It's okay.

Yeah.

Thanks for coming on today and talking about it.

Darren.

This is so much fun.

We hope so.

I have so much fun here.

I'm so glad.

You'll probably be invited back.

Even if you're plant-based.

It will probably be.

It was touch and go there for a second.

Yeah.

Should we have a food episode?

We can do a live cooking show.

Shug your face.

That's an awesome idea.

I will bring, no, I will bring, I will bring in food.

I'll be like, Hey, you need to try this.

Let's work on it.

This is our Christmas episode.

Can we do a Chris V?

Like, can we do like a plant-based, a plant-based holiday cooking episode?

Oh, I'm here for that.

Okay.

We're going to work on it.

I like it.

I'm excited.

I can't believe I'm excited about something like that.

Okay.

Hey friends, as always can head over to dudesanddads.com to check out all current and previous episodes

and future.

In the future episodes?

Sure.

There's a time machine over there, Andy.

Also dudesanddadspodcast@gmail.com.

If you got any future show ideas for us, want to reach out to us, any of that good stuff,

our voicemail is 5 7 4 2 1 3 8 7 0 2.

You can call that and leave a voicemail at any time.

You might wake up, but not me.

No guys.

We're just so grateful to have you on this journey.

Thanks for hanging out with us.

And as always, we wish you grace and peace.