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Harnessing AI for Cyber Innovation: Insights from Dr. Amy Hamilton at National Defense University
Episode 7931st January 2024 • Tech Transforms, sponsored by Dynatrace • Carolyn Ford
00:00:00 00:45:13

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The real question is, what doesn’t Dr. Amy Hamilton do? She’s currently the visiting Faculty Chair for the Department of Energy (DOE) at National Defense University and the DOE Senior Advisor for National Cybersecurity Policy and Programs, and has had previous stops in the U.S. Army Reserves, NORAD and U.S. European Command, just to name a few.

At National Defense University, Amy draws on all of this expertise to educate the workforce on AI and finding the right balance between automation and workforce training. Amy also explores how she teaches her students that cybersecurity has to be more than a 9-5 job, the balance of security vs. convenience, and how it will take the entire country getting on board to make the implementation of cybersecurity best practices truly possible. In this episode, we also dive into the realm of operational technology and the need to look to zero trust as we allow more smart devices into our lives and government ecosystems.

Key Topics

  • 00:00 Importance of training, education and AI integration.
  • 06:52 Cybersecurity, AI and building codes challenges.
  • 09:47 Nuclear facilities need caution, open labs innovative.
  • 11:58 Helping students understand federal government and cybertech.
  • 15:37 Cyber college compared to traditional university programs.
  • 17:18 National Defense University offers master's degree programs.
  • 22:06 Addressing the urgent need to combat intellectual property theft.
  • 24:32 Passionate plea for cybersecurity vigilance and dedication.
  • 26:40 Using automation to streamline cybersecurity operations and training.
  • 32:06 Policy person struggles to tie guidance together.
  • 33:02 Collaboration is needed for addressing industry issues.
  • 38:25 Rethink security for devices in smart tech.
  • 41:16 Choosing sustainability as a guiding principle.
  • 43:22 Overcome writing and presenting challenges for success.

Leveraging AI and Automation for Cyber Innovation

Emphasizing Efficiency in the Generation of Abstracts

Dr. Amy Hamilton underlines the capabilities of artificial intelligence to streamline time-consuming processes, specifically the creation of abstracts. This innovation allows for a transition from mundane, repetitive tasks to pursuits that require a deeper cognitive investment. Therefore, elevating the nature of the workforce's endeavors. Dr. Hamilton's discussion focuses on the practical applications of this technology, and she cites an instance from the National Defense University's annual Cyber Beacon Conference. Here, participants were challenged to distinguish between AI-generated and human-generated abstracts, often finding it challenging to tell them apart. This exercise not only highlighted AI's proficiency but also introduced the workforce to the safe and practical application of this emergent technology.

How do we use AI in a way that goes from low-value to high-value work? If I'm not doing abstract, what other things could I be doing and spending my brain calories towards? - Dr. Amy Hamilton

Preparing the Workforce for Cyber Innovation

Dr. Hamilton stresses the necessity for workforce education in the context of AI and automation. Aiming for a future where employees are neither intimidated by nor unfamiliar with the advancing technological landscape. She illustrates the Department of Energy's proactive role in integrating AI into its training programs. Thus, ensuring that employees are well-acquainted with both the operational and potential ethical dimensions of AI deployment. Acknowledging the diverse range of operations within the DOE, including nuclear and environmental management, Dr. Hamilton notes that the appropriateness of AI application varies by context. Signifying the department's nuanced approach to the introduction of these technologies. Through education and exposure to use cases within a controlled environment, Dr. Hamilton envisions a workforce that is not only comfortable with AI but can also leverage it to enhance productivity and safety in their respective fields.

Cyber Innovation and Collaboration in Government Environments

Dr. Hamilton's Role at National Defense University

Amy serves as a crucial beacon for educating Department of Defense personnel on comprehensive government functions. With a focus on the distinct agencies and their interaction within the broader governmental ecosystem, she acts as a conduit, clarifying for her students the intricate dance of interagency collaboration. Grants of knowledge on how certain branches, like the Treasury, interact during cyber events. Or the functions of varied components within the agency, serve to demystify the convoluted nature of interdepartmental cooperation. Her teaching elevates students' comprehension of the interconnected roles and responsibilities that propel our government forward.

Environment for Cyber Innovation

At National Defense University, there's a particular distinction made between no-tolerance environments. Such as nuclear facilities, where repetitiveness and extreme scrutiny are valued over experimentation and open science labs that thrive on creativity and incessant innovation. Dr. Amy Hamilton underlines this dichotomy. She established the need for both the rigid reliability of technology in some contexts and the unabated exploration for new horizons in others. These contrasting settings ensure the Department of Energy's multifaceted missions are maneuvered through a lens of both caution and curiosity. Across a breadth of projects from the highly sensitive to the openly experimental.

Attracting Talent to Federal Government

The College of Information in Cyberspace, where Amy engages with the bright minds of the defense community, presents an academic path tailored for mid to senior career professionals. With a suite of master's degrees and certificate programs, the college not only imparts education but also fosters an ecosystem ripe for nurturing government leaders of the future. Despite the widespread perception of financial hurdles within government roles compared to private sectors, Dr. Hamilton articulates a potent alternative allure. The mission-driven nature of public service. This inherent value proposition attracts those who yearn to contribute to a greater cause beyond monetary gain, ensuring a continual influx of devotion and expertise within federal ranks.

So I think there's a huge amount of value of what flexibility of recognizing industry experience in cybersecurity can be very, very useful. But I also think, like, how do we attract people in the federal government when we don't have that kind of financial ability to reward? And I think it's reward by mission. - Dr. Amy Hamilton

Fostering Diversity and Cyber Innovation

Cyber Outreach and Advocating Diversity

Dr. Hamilton touches on the vital role of cyber outreach and advocating for diversity in the field of cybersecurity. She brings up Kennedy Taylor, who is making strides as Miss Maryland by combining her cyber expertise with her platform in beauty pageantry. She engages and educates young people, especially girls, about the significance of cybersecurity. Amy highlights the potential of such outreach efforts to challenge and change the stereotypes associated with cybersecurity professionals. By leveraging the influence of figures like Miss Maryland, there's an opportunity to inspire a diverse new generation of cybersecurity experts who can bring fresh perspectives to tackling the industry's challenges.

The Need for Cyber Innovation

Throughout the discussion, Dr. Amy Hamilton stresses the increased frequency and severity of cybersecurity threats that have surfaced recently. Acknowledging that the traditional cybersecurity models are faltering under these new strains. She calls for innovative thinking and proactive measures to be adopted. Amy notes that measures used in the past, such as security through obscurity, no longer suffice due to the complex and interconnected nature of modern technology. This new reality requires the cybersecurity sector to evolve and embrace zero-trust principles among other modern strategies to safeguard against the continually evolving threat landscape.

How do we correct, just swiftly get around to being able to apply those patches and things that we need to do? And we have to get better out of it because our adversaries are. Our adversaries were taking advantage of this every single day. - Dr. Amy Hamilton

Addressing Risk Aversion in Cybersecurity

In discussing the inherent risk-aversion in human nature, Dr. Hamilton points out that despite this tendency, convenience often trumps caution, leading to increased vulnerabilities. She suggests that the answer is not to shy away from innovation for fear of risks, but rather utilize it to enhance the safety and functionality of technological systems. Dr. Hamilton also highlights the crucial role that industry partnerships play in this context, suggesting that collaboration between government and private sectors is essential in developing effective and robust cybersecurity defenses. By working together, these entities can find the balance between convenience and security, ensuring a safer digital environment for all users.

Challenges in Implementing Cyber Innovation

Importance of User Experience in Cyber Innovation

Dr. Amy Hamilton brings attention to the crucial role that user experience plays when incorporating automation into the workforce. She contrasts the tedious and often frustrating nature of conventional cybersecurity practices, such as manually sifting through logs, with the potential ease automation can provide. Amy uses the example of e-commerce, where users intuitively navigate online shopping without the need for training to illustrate her point that intuitive design is key to user acceptance of automated systems. By adopting user-friendly automation, employees' tasks can be streamlined allowing them to focus on more complex and engaging aspects of their work.

And so I think that we need to really realize that user experience is important. - Dr. Amy Hamilton

AI and Automation in Everyday Life

Reflecting on her experience with AI in website design, Amy describes the simplicity and efficiency brought by AI-assisted tools that automatically generate content based on keywords. Thus eliminating the need for extensive technical knowledge in web development. This underscores the tangible benefits of automation for individuals without a background in coding. Moreover, Amy emphasizes the societal shift toward greater reliance on automated systems by referencing Disney World as a model of successful automation integration. The theme park's seamless integration of automated booking systems, fast passes and reservations highlight how well-designed automation can augment the customer experience and efficiency in large-scale operations.

Partnerships in Cyber Innovation

The dialogue shifts toward the collaborative effort required to tackle cybersecurity breaches. Dr. Hamilton mentioned the expansive SolarWinds incident as a key example where AI and automation have a role to play. Amy underscores the significance of industry partnerships and a unified national approach for enhancing cybersecurity. The incident illustrates that automated tools and AI are not only about convenience, they are instrumental in swiftly identifying and rectifying vulnerabilities in complex digital systems. By automating these processes, agencies can respond more effectively to cybersecurity threats, underscoring the need for automation that complements and enhances human efforts in maintaining security.

Educational Technologies

Amy advocates for the use of educational tools like Khan Academy, which can benefit children by offering a controlled environment for learning. She stresses the importance of early cybersecurity awareness, suggesting that exposure to best practices should align with the first use of digital devices. This early introduction to cybersecurity principles, aided by educational technologies, is vital in preparing the next generation to navigate the expanding digital frontier securely. Automation in education, therefore, serves a dual purpose, streamlining the learning process while simultaneously fostering a culture of digital safety awareness from a young age.

Executive Orders and Collaboration for Cyber Innovation

The Administration's Challenges in Artificial Intelligence Regulation

Dr. Amy Hamilton discusses the executive order on artificial intelligence. She acknowledged the inherent challenges of being a government pioneer in regulating groundbreaking technology. She compares the order to earlier attempts at cybersecurity regulation and the long-standing effects those have on policy today. Dr. Hamilton predicts that in hindsight, we may perceive today's orders as early steps in an evolving landscape. Given her past experience at the OMB executive office of the president, she understands the complexity of crafting policy that will need to adapt as technology progresses.

Collaborative Efforts for Cybersecurity Workforce Development

Dr. Amy Hamilton underlines the need for collaborative synergy between government and industry to foster a robust cybersecurity workforce. With growing intellectual property theft, especially from China, she stresses that safeguarding proprietary information is not just an industry burden but also a national and allied concern. Dr. Hamilton points out that partnerships with non-profit organizations play a vital role in shaping a national response to cybersecurity challenges. Such alliances are vital for maintaining cybersecurity and counteracting espionage activities that impact not only the US but also its international partners.

Public Awareness and Cybersecurity Breaches

Carolyn and Dr. Amy Hamilton echo a mutual frustration over the general public's lack of awareness regarding cybersecurity threats. They underscore the gravity of cybersecurity breaches and the espionage activities that target nations' security and economic well-being. Dr. Hamilton uses historical incidents to illustrate the ongoing battle against cyber threats and the need for heightened public consciousness. The discussion implies that bolstering public awareness and concern is pivotal in the collective effort to enhance national cybersecurity.

About Our Guest

Amy S. Hamilton, Ph.D. is the Department of Energy Senior Advisor for National Cybersecurity Policy and Programs. Additionally, she is the Visiting Faculty Chair for the Department of Energy at National Defense University. She served two years as a senior cyber security policy analyst at the Office of Management and Budget, Executive Office of the President. She served in the Michigan Army National Guard as a communications specialist and was commissioned into the U.S. Army Officer Signal Corp, serving on Active Duty and later the U.S. Army Reserves. She has worked at both the U.S. European Command and the U.S. Northern Command & North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) on multiple communications and IT projects.

She became a certified Project Management Professional through the Project Management Institute in 2007 and earned her Certified Information Security Manager certification in 2011. And she presented “The Secret to Life from a PMP” at TEDxStuttgart in September 2016. She taught Project Management Tools at Colorado Technical University and was a facilitator for the Master’s Degree Program in Project Management for Boston University. She is an award-winning public speaker and has presented in over twenty countries on overcoming adversity, reaching your dreams, cybersecurity, and project management.

Dr. Hamilton holds a Bachelor of Science (BS) in Geography from Eastern Michigan University, a Master of Science (MS) in Urban Studies from Georgia State University, Master in Computer Science (MSc) from the University of Liverpool, Master Certificate in Project Management (PM) and Chief Information Officer (CIO) from the National Defense University, and completed the U.S. Air University, Air War College. She completed her Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) at Regent University in its Organizational Leadership Program with a dissertation on “Unexpected Virtual Leadership: The Lived Experience of U.S. Government IT and Cybersecurity Leaders transitioning from physical to virtual space for COVID-19.” Amy’s motto is: “A woman who is passionate about project management, public speaking, and shoes.”

Episode Links

Transcripts

Carolyn Ford [:

Thanks for joining us on Tech Transforms. I'm Carolyn Ford here with my co-host, Mark Senell. Hey, Mark.

Mark Senell [:

Hey, Carolyn. Good morning.

Carolyn Ford [:

Good morning. So today, we are joined by Dr. Amy Hamilton. She is the visiting Faculty Chair for the Department of Energy (DOE) at National Defense University and Senior Cybersecurity Advisor for Policy and Programs at the U.S. Department of Energy. And Amy's career is impressive. She has had previous stops at the OMB executive office of the president, the Michigan Army National Guard where she was commissioned into the U.S. Army Signal Corps and served on active duty, and then later, the U.S. Army Reserve. So thank you, Amy. My dad, also Army, so best branch. And Amy has worked at both the U.S. European Command and NORAD, she's a certified project manager and a prolific public speaker.

Carolyn Ford [:

She's even given a TED Talk, and she's a rock star among us. We are thrilled to have Amy on today to discuss educating agency workforces through automation and the importance of preparing the next generation. So with that, welcome to Tech Transforms, Amy.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Thank you so much for having me.

Carolyn Ford [:

You might have heard our episode with Ann Duncan, CIO at Department of Energy. It was such a fun conversation. She was great.

Carolyn Ford [:

And Ann made us aware that the DOE has a broad and nuanced portfolio of operations and missions, including nuclear, environmental. So nuclear, environmental management, and open science tech, and more. So as automation and AI grow, what ways is the DOE implementing these new technologies into training and beyond? And are there specific use cases where you're excited to roll out AI versus instances where you're like, maybe not?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So I think it's really important, and you hit the key point of, like, training and education. That's why Ann's, like, so terrific, and it's great that you guys interviewed her. You know, let me come over here to the National Defense University. So I am partly doing some research still for DOE, specifically in operation technology, which I think automation and AI is going to be a huge part of. In addition to that is, like, how do we educate our workforce, and how do we make sure that the workforce is not terrified of AI? And one of the things that we did recently recently at the National Defense University is we had our annual Cyber Beacon conference, and it was super interesting. And the proceedings should be out about nowish. And what we did as we looked at every single panel and we had an AI-generated abstract, and we had an abstract that a human wrote. And we had the audience guess which one was generated by a human, which one was generated by AI.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

For almost for 5 of the 7, It was almost exactly 50/50. People did not know the difference between AI-generated or human-generated content for these abstracts.

Carolyn Ford [:

So they were abstracts for, like, speaking, like, presentation.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

For a panel. So, like, if you did, for instance, right here, like, your podcast. If you did an AI-generated podcast description, and then you did a human-generated podcast description. And then for all of them, start asking people, like, which one's human? Which one's, AI? And for, 5 of the 7, it was almost exactly 50/50.

Carolyn Ford [:

Well, I mean, the truth is, isn't all that based on human stuff? Like, right, isn't that where the AI gets the large language model is from data from us. Right?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Right. And so a lot of times, though, people are questioning, like, is the AI content as informative, as valuable? So to actually be able to just kind of, like, lightly start testing that. Yeah. So, you know, if you're out there and you're wondering, can human and AI can it be interchanged? You know, know, at least at a kind of wave top abstract level, you know, it appears to be pretty good. Right? You know? And that's a super interesting thing. And the other thing is allowing people a safe environment to test out AI. So when you're at a university environment, we specifically use .edu networks to make sure that this is a learning environment. We know we're not on the main government systems, and we had an AI-generated poster contest.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And for many of our students, it was first time that they ever, like, went out and tried generative AI, especially for images.

Carolyn Ford [:

Oh, images. So what tools did they use for the images?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

They use different tools. DALL-E was a popular tool that they used. There was a couple other ones that were freeware that I cannot think of off the top of my head. But if you just, you know, use your favorite search engine and put in, you know, generative AI image creators. Some are for pay. Some of them are you know, you have to remember that, if you're not paying anything, you were probably the product. Right? So, you know, they're gathering your information. So you have to be like, are you comfortable with this? And, you know, some people are comfortable giving out their information.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Some people are not. But and that's why we want it to be on a .edu network where people are more comfortable. But, you know, they just use some different keywords. We had some really just neat posters that were generated. And more importantly, the students have that learning environment where there's they're out there using AI in an environment where they do feel safe. And I think that one of the super interesting things is just recently the Administration, you know, released their, executive order on artificial intelligence. And I think that that's gonna have some great, you know, guide rails for us as we move forward.

Mark Senell [:

What do you think of that EO?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I think it's difficult when you're the fist time. Right?

Mark Senell [:

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So I would not have wanted to be at OMB writing that right now. You know, because if you look at cybersecurity even, which I've been doing forever, cybersecurity, when it comes to federal code, goes underneath the building codes. Because when IT first came out, it was seen as sort of, like, the same as electricity or something else. And I don't think now we would think of what we do should being under building codes. Right? Like, should that really be where it lives? But that's where it got put, so that's where it is now. And I think if you look at AI, we're probably gonna eventually look at this executive order and say, like, oh, we had a lot to learn. But I think that's gonna be the historic behind the, like, looking backwards. I think that it's extraordinarily difficult job that they have at OMB right now. Unprecedented technological advances.

Carolyn Ford [:

Well it’s huge, you know.

Mark Senell [:

What I thought was interesting in it was that one of the key points was encouraging agencies to deploy and to, experiment with AI.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, in certain areas, like, we just talked about the abstracts. The amount of time that you can save using AI when it comes to things like, you know, a great example, that I heard at a workforce was, you know, hey, if you're writing your PD, PDs, I mean, a lot of times are the same. Like, use AI to help to generate some of these things. Use AI. Like I said, when we went to the chancellor and said, hey, we'd like to use AI to generate the abstracts in our somewhat reluctance even in a university environment.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

But, like, when you say, hey, it's almost 50/50. Next time, why not just go with AI-generated abstracts and be honest and tell people. Hey, we're using AI-generated abstracts. And I think people are going to find it exciting useful tools. The question is, you know, what does that mean long term? And, you know, how do we use AI in a way that goes from, you know, low value to high-value work. If I'm not doing abstract, what other things could I be doing and spending my brain calories towards? Because, you know, a lot of times that writing can just be very tedious and time-consuming.

Mark Senell [:

So you're not really like a research area for stuff like this. It's more of the educational arm. Because I was thinking, man, this would be a you guys would be a great hotbed to test out a lot of these these new things where you're at.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

There are other areas that we work with that do that, and some of our professors, really specialize in that sort of, like, machine learning, large language area. We have faculty that have all kinds of different levels of expertise, and they'll partner and work with different, DOD, DOE, and other programs.

Mark Senell [:

Okay. Interesting.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

But the national laboratories, I mean, they're you know, I'm sure you heard all about that from Ann, you know, that they're doing quite a bit of extensive research into these areas.

Mark Senell [:

Yeah. So in an environment that is not very, risk tolerant. Right.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

It depends on the environment. So, you know, if you're at a nuclear facility, like, don't be innovative. Like, don't, Like, just be very boring people. Right? Like, that's what you want in an environment. And, you know, I love the people who are, that regimented attention the detail routine. Like, that's what you want in those, like, no risk environments. You know? You wanna make sure at a nuclear facility, you know, the people who are, providing our electricity on our electric grids, those are the environments where it's very low tolerance to no tolerance. But on the other hand, we have open science labs, and the open science labs are designed to be creative, to really start, you know, expanding on these efforts and to be going out there and finding new things.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So and those laboratories, it's the opposite. They're very much partnered with universities and looking into these environments. So, when you say it's a diverse mission set, I mean, it really just goes from everything to an open science lab working with a university to nuclear facilities that you don't ever want creativity.

Carolyn Ford [:

Talk about your role at the National Defense University. What's your mission, in your role and you're actually in the classroom, aren't you? You're teaching.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

That is correct. And I have to say it is an absolutely wonderful experience to be from an agency and then working back with Department of Defense, which as you mentioned, you know, that was sort of my home where I grew up and came from was in the Department of Defense. And so being back at the Department of Defense, one of the things I feel like I contribute the most is an understanding that, you know, DOD is vast. And if you were in a Department of Defense component, maybe a few levels down. You might never really interact with the rest of the government. And so a lot of times in academia, they have this tendency to go, and the inner agency will do this. And I'll be like, well, which parts of the inner agency? And really trying to help them to understand what is the role of Treasury? And if you look at cyber events when they happen, like, what is the role of Treasury when it comes to seizing funds? You know? What are the components within Treasury that do this. You know? How do you work with SEC? Just recently, there was an indictment against, the CISO for SolarWinds.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Right? And so, you know, I don't think people necessarily think, oh, cyber SEC that goes hand in hand. Right? And so really just helping the students to understand the authorities within the federal government and all the different roles is one of the major things that, I'm helping them to understand better. And then, I have a couple students who are doing some amazing thesis work right now. And advising on a thesis, which is like a year long journey, is really great because you can help them to dive very deep into things that they are passionate about. And so, you know, you kind of have the whole gauntlet. And one of the other great things we have and a lot of people may not be aware of is we have a distance learning program, and it's one of the oldest distance learning programs, in the Department of Defense and the Federal Government. And this can really help because a lot of times, you know, as somebody who's a practitioner on my DOE side, it's hard. It's hard to send somebody away for, like, half a year or 10 months to go to a school because that is just something where I'm like, I want to do that.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I want my people to get the best possible education, but I need them there. Right? And so to be able to say, hey. You know, what you can do is you can have some time. You could take some distance learning classes. It might take a bit longer, but you can do it over time. And I think that that's a really wonderful option, you know, for people to be able to explore that. And in addition, it really is great for people across different time zones. Back at our annual conference, we were able to have, General Retired Alexander, who was, of course, the First CYBERCOMM commander, and he was in Florida, and then we had one of our distance learning students.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

She's actually based out to Colorado, but she was in Vandenberg in California for the actual day of. And so they were able to come on and do their virtual presentations and to really include our distance learning students and to kinda show holistically all the different programs, that we offer at the National Defense University and the College of Information and Cyberspace was really, really exciting.

Carolyn Ford [:

Yeah. Technology is awesome.

Mark Senell [:

Who can and can't be a student? How do how do how do you get your students? Where do they come from? Can

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So that is a great question.

Carolyn Ford [:

Can I come?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So, Carolyn, the answer to that is sort of it depends. Right? And so we have a very, very limited amount of industry students that we can take and accept. The preponderance, of course, is Department of Defense. So Department of Defense, makes up the majority of students, directly from the department as well as, of course, allowing, Coast Guard students.

Carolyn Ford [:

So they're not out of high school kids?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

No. No. No. This is, master's degree granting programs.

Carolyn Ford [:

Okay.

Mark Senell [:

When you say when you say Department of Defense, you're including DOA and Coast Guard in as part of that.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

It includes Coast Guard, but not all of DHS. And then for instance, in DOE, we get a limited number of slots where we can have attendees as well as many other organizations across the federal government. So Department of State and several of the other agencies have either agreements or situations like mine where they have faculty and then that allows them to send students.

Carolyn Ford [:

So it's a cybersecurity master's degree that's I mean, like because

Mark Senell [:

The Coast Guard because we were talking with, one of our customers, the Coast Guard, customer yesterday. He said they have dual report. They report to DHS, and they report to DOE. I mean, DOD. Because because they're on the DOD network.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Right. They're DHS, DOD, dual reporting. Yeah. Because the way the Coast Guard authorities work, the coast guard can have attendees the same as if they were internal to DOD.

Mark Senell [:

Well, how many students are we talking here?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Okay. So for the portion that I'm familiar with, which is the college of information in a cyberspace. So just like, if you think about, any university that you attended, there's different colleges. You know? So, like, You know, in a more traditional university, the, you know, the business college and the arts college. And so I don't know the other colleges as well. You know, they're there, but, like, how the internal workings of, like, the Eisenhower School or the National War College work. That's not my area of expertise.

Mark Senell [:

Right.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Only speaking to the limited area I know for the college of information in Cyberspace, for our, our 10 month degree, which is our master's degree, program, is 10 months we have about 80 students in that program right now. K. And they come from several different agencies. And then, the part I haven't mentioned yet is that we also have students who come from, different foreign countries as well. Oh.

Mark Senell [:

Okay.

Carolyn Ford [:

Well, so this university, I didn't really know anything about it until now. So the Department of Energy at Nash the National Defense University. Like you said, it's got multiple schools. Like, this is a big is there a physical location?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Yes. Right at Fort McNair, you know, one of the oldest bases here in the Washington D.C. area. It is absolutely scenic and beautiful right off the Potomac. It's, right in, Right near the, the Wharf and the new stadium. It is actually directly across the new soccer stadium. Yep. Down by Navy Yard.

Mark Senell [:

I've seen it. I've seen it. It is pretty it's right at the point. Right?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Right at the point.

Carolyn Ford [:

So if any of our listeners are interested, how do they, apply. How to, you know, how do they learn more?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So to learn more, if you, look at the National Defense University, College of Information in Cyberspace, you could just use your favorite search engine and find it. And from there, it gives you information into our programs. And so we have the master's degree As well as 6 master's degree certificates, 2 of which are in resident for about 4 months each, and the other ones which you are are the are on the online programs as well as you can obtain the master's degree online. And so just like any other university, we have requirements to get in. Of course, you have to have a bachelor's degree. Is accredited through Middle States as our accreditation body. So, yeah, it's absolutely an amazing experience. And so within the Department of Defense, the preponderance of students are those sort of mid to senior career professionals who are expected from their services to be going on to do great things.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And from the agencies, we have a selection process and, and I wanna send our best and brightest and people who you know, we want them to go out, get that education further and expand their knowledge, come back into the department, and be able to apply it. And It's it's very exciting for us.

Mark Senell [:

I gotta imagine your department's getting bigger and bigger because it's so topical. There's such a focus on it in the federal government. The funding's gotta be flowing in, Amy.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I honestly you know, I have nothing to do on the funding side. So,

Carolyn Ford [:

Well, with the shortage in the workforce, though, how can sorry. That was a dumb I almost said how can we not be funding it, but government.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Here's here's what I will say, and I think that this is super important on this topic, is the government cannot compete with the industry when it comes to funding. I mean, you know, every single time I get people contacting me through LinkedIn, and I have, like, a minute or 2 of, like, oh, wow. Like, that's a lot of money, like, way more money than I make right now. And I know our students, our graduates, our alums say the same things. And first of all, there is a certain point where I think there is value of people coming in and out of the government. And you could see sometimes people will leave. They'll go work at a financial institution. They will go work, in industry.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Ann did that. You know? Ann left, you know, from EPA, she went and worked out in California, and then she came back into Department of Energy. So I think there's a huge amount of value of what flexibility of recognizing industry experience in cybersecurity can be very, very useful. But I also think, like, how do we attract people in the federal government when we don't have that kind of financial ability to reward? And I think it's reward by mission. Like, I get up in the morning, and I'm happy. I'm excited. I just think I have such an important mission to the American people. And then how do you convey that to people? How do you get them excited where they're coming in every day, not just because of the financial reward, but also because they know what they're doing has value.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And when you can add that value and that meaning to someone's life, there's all these studies that show, like, there's a certain point, like, you must have Maslow's hierarchy of needs met. If you are hungry, you are not going to be happy at work. Right? Like, that's, like, a fundamental. You know, you have to have those kinds of, you know, psychological safety needs met. But at that point, it's like, what gets you excited in a day? What makes you come into the day and say, I love this job, and this is the job I wanna be doing, and I can't imagine doing anything else. And having that mission is super important, and that's what we can offer people.

Mark Senell [:

Everybody that I talk to and, I mean, the hundreds of people over the years that work in the DOD, That's the first thing they say. It's the mission. And government. Yeah.

Carolyn Ford [:

We do it for the mission.

Carolyn Ford [:

Government in general. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you so much for sharing that, Amy. It's it's important. And I feel I get a sense of that in industry because I work exclusively with our government, business unit. And so I get a taste of it, and I know that I don't get it to the fullness that you do.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, I think it's important that our industry partners we're all partnered in this right now.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I mean, if you look at our cybersecurity breach us that we've had. It takes that comp that comprehensive partnership. I know that some of the controversial issues, I mentioned SolarWinds earlier, you know, is how do we make sure that we're looking and saying, hey. You know, we do need you to start understanding software as a station and SBOMs. We don't necessarily want you to give away, you know, all the secret sauce and formula. We know everybody needs some proprietary data, but at the same time, how are we making sure that we have a better understanding so that when a Log4j event happens, that we're able and back to the AI and automation, it's easy. It's automated. We understand where is all this embedded in our software.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

How do we correct you know, very, very just swiftly get around to being able to apply those patches and things that we need to do, and we have to get better out of it because our adversaries are. Our adversaries were taking advantage of this every single day. And, one of the classes I just thought talked to my students was just the vast and overwhelming amount of intellectual property theft that has happened unprecedented. And, recently, the five heads of, you know, of all the five eyes came together to talk about the intellectual property theft from China against the United States and how it has been unprecedented and the largest shift of wealth, of information ever in the history of mankind, and we have to recognize that, you know, if you're stealing industry secrets, you're stealing, you know, U.S. secrets. You're stealing secrets from our Australian partners, from our UK partners. And it you know, this is not acceptable, and we really have to help for that next generation as they're coming through to learn to do better. Because if you remember right, way back in the beginning, the Internet, you know, ARPANET, DARPANET, it was designed to be open. It was designed to be research collaboration sharing, and it was, just something people didn't think people could steal

Mark Senell [:

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Or would steal.

Mark Senell [:

Right? I mean, it's scary, and it makes you angry. It makes me angry anyway. I mean, when I hear, things like this, which is true, I don't know if enough people are aware in this country or care. You know? I mean, certainly, people that work in the DOD and in these areas care, but I'm talking about general population type stuff.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So it's really interesting. For one of my classes, I had my students watch some excerpts from, C-SPAN way back in 1989 from Cliff Stoll. And Cliff Stoll was the writer of The Cuckoo's Egg. It was all about at a Department of Energy laboratory at our Berkeley National Laboratory, how espionage was taking place. They were coming into, the DOE network. And from the DOE network, their work they were traversing out into the military networks. And he conveys that, and he talks about, like, "You have to be angry. You have to be upset."

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And I can make sure you guys have a link to this, C SPAN video because To me is so powerful, and you see this in 1989, but it's just as relevant today. And he's describing he's like, I'm talking to NSA, and he's like and they're talking about, oh, there are penetrators. They're, like, talking about exfiltration. He's like, no. They're, like, stealing, and it's, like, wrong. And I'm like he's like, you can't just go in and look at cyber as, like, 9 to 5 job. Like, you have to have that passion about it. You have to go in every day and say, I really, really care about this.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And there's times that you're not gonna get sleep. There's times that you were gonna be awake for days because that's the nature of these breaches.

Carolyn Ford [:

So at Billington, you were on a panel, and it was all about automation for the workforce, like, to increase productivity, to increase job satisfaction. And I'm wondering as an educator, first of all, so let me back up. As a basic employee and as a user, I kind of hate it when my company does automation because that means I have to go through training, and I have a job to do. And that training is usually I get myself in trouble. Mark's like, you're gonna have to edit this out.

Mark Senell [:

You have to take the training no matter what.

Carolyn Ford [:

I know. I am. And it's a waste of time. It doesn't train me to do anything. The automation that's supposedly coming in, I'm just like, this is just one more tool that I mean so okay. I'm gonna stop my rant here, and I'm gonna ask you, how do you find a balance? Because innovation and the new tools coming in, I mean, they do make things faster. They do help amplify in in certain cases. How do you find a balance between getting your students, getting your workforce, trained up to use the automation, I guess.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So I think that there's two things. One is the automation behind the scenes, which is when I look at my cybersecurity workforce and you look at security operations center. It takes forever just going through alerts and logs, and it is a painful experience. Right? So how do you I now take automation to make those jobs easier to ensure that there's a talent built in, then I now have algorithms looking at that, just flagging the right things so that my workforce can be focused on other things. Right? So that's a form of automation where they're gonna be doing some behind the grind, but it should make that job easier, less tedious, not more tedious. Right? So that's part of it. But I think the part that you're describing, and places do this so well when they to you. And this is what IT departments and cyber departments should be doing internally is you shouldn't have to do training. There should be user experience.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I have never had to be taught how to go shopping online. I wish I had to be taught because my credit card

Carolyn Ford [:

Yes.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

You know, my life wouldn't be the same. Right? No one has to teach me how to shop online. I can do this well on my own. And I go to the websites, and they send back and go, look at this based on this this you see 10,000 other things you need. And I'm like, Yes. I never needed knew I needed pink hedge clippers until the inoculator said, you should get pink hedge clippers. So I was like, I love clipping my hedge, and I'm like, look. It's pink.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

You know? And so, yeah, phenomenal crazy experience. But when you look at that, like, pink pink hedge clip clippers, like, how random, and you look at user experience. Like, It's very, very different when they're trying to sell you ads, when they're trying to sell you a product. I will say that, I have my own website I designed, and, I won't give I try not to use vendor names, but the vendor, like, you just went in and they had incorporated AI already. Then I just put 2 or 3 keywords on them. Like, what products are you selling? What are you doing? You know? And I was helping out my sister, you know, as she's doing her website. So I was like, painting, acrylics, whatever, and bam, it just auto populated, "Hi. I sell blah blah blah in this way and do this and this," and I'll think, this is fantastic.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And I built this whole website.

Carolyn Ford [:

A that name offline, Amy. I'm gonna need We will do that. Vendor.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

But it was, like, phenomenal because back when I used to do website development Tech coding. It was, like, terrible. Painful. Was like, what does a WC3 say, you know, like, like, in these requirements? And how do I build out the HTML code? Which color thing do I have to look up with all of that?

Carolyn Ford [:

Even when the templates came along, like, what, 10, 15 years ago, even those templates, man, I I've used them and they're pain they were painful.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Mhmm.

Carolyn Ford [:

It was not a slick experience, but I love we shouldn't have to do training, Mark. It should just make our jobs easier.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna caveat that with there's certain kinds of training we should do, and that's gonna be, like, user awareness, especially when it comes to, like, cybersecurity, privacy, active shooter, all the things where it's like, if you are in a situation like, you need awareness training. Like, you need to be able to good decision training. Right? Medical grade, that's what the most government is.

Carolyn Ford [:

Yeah. But we get new tools too. I feel like, you know, a new tool comes along and disrupts my life at least once or twice a year, and it's a major disruption. And it's painful. I'm still trying to learn the latest tool that has been pushed on us. Like, it's still not intuitive like Amy. It should be like shopping.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, you know, it's interesting when you look at it, and I'll go to travel websites. Right. I have no problem booking a trip online. I'm going to Disney World. Yay. Right? Like, Disney makes it a fun experience to it like use Disney and then, what I wanna say too is our Indie Houston has had the opportunity to go down to Disney. And you wanna talk about, like, land of automation and the ability to just see a huge organization that's very, very different and diverse.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And if you think about all the automation for all the rides, all the fast passes, all the, reservations for, like, when you go to get your meals and your shows and everything and how amazing that is. Right? I mean, just that alone is overwhelming. Mhmm. And so I think it's just really important. Like, we're all dependent on this technology now. But you don't have to learn to use Disney. It's not like you go to user training to figure out how to go to Disney World. Like, you just go on the site.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

You figure it out. It's pretty simple. And so I think that we need to really realize that user experience is important.

Mark Senell [:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

You know? And make it easier for you.

Mark Senell [:

Interesting because we were talking about the executive order that just came out about artificial intelligence. Well, about a year ago, an executive order came out on end user experience.

Carolyn Ford [:

Said do better.

Mark Senell [:

Not a funny. The you know? But it was really vague. It didn't have a lot of meat to it. You know,

Carolyn Ford [:

Well, but we just had the recent one in September, M2322, that actually gives, like, 93 controls, basically, it's kind it's is it a NIST document? Because it feels like an like, there's an there's like 90 plus, pretty prescriptive.

Mark Senell [:

Talked about this yesterday, and I probably can't remember. I don't know.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, and that's the thing on policy is, you know, first of all, I'm a policy person. I, you know, I was just saying, oh, you know, here's this policy letting my students know, like, hey, FISMA guidance comes out annually and that supersedes the previous guidance and blah blah blah. But, I mean, having an idea of how all the guidance falls together, you know, like, the statute comes out, and then you have the executive orders, you know, the presidential decision directives, you know, and then you get down into OMB memos. And then you've got, you off your civilian agency, the bods that are coming out of DHS, and then you've got the NIST guidance, you know, and somehow it all works, but, you know, it's like, how do you tie all these things together? And it's a real challenge. Right?

Carolyn Ford [:

And make them digestible. Make them digestible. As a professor, Amy, I'm just I'm gonna ask you to do that for me. Can you please distill that AI guidance that just came out and tell me what it all means.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

You know, honestly, I wish I could. I wish I could, but it's it's difficult. Right? And like, you wanna talk about it takes a bill a village. It takes a country. It is going to take all of us working together industry and, you know, government, you know, the partnerships. One of the things I'm really grateful to is, the different nonprofit organizations that are helping to create the collaboration in these environments as well, I think is so important because, we should have these standards bodies who are out there helping us to work together. You know, we should have these, you know, different forms where we can come together and discuss these important issues because it takes an entire nation approach. And one of the things I really appreciated is back in July when the, educational workforce strategy came out from the White House. They included a lot of industry partners, and industry partners were, like, making financial commitments to, like, we're gonna help rural areas so that these employees can get this.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

You know? They're gonna help out with getting the information of K-12 and whenever people are like, when should you start cybersecurity training? I'm like, as soon as you start handing them a phone.

Carolyn Ford [:

Yeah. It should really just become common sense. And to be honest, like, we do our cybersecurity training every year. It's so easy for me because it is just to me, it's just common sense. Like, I can just tear through those tests, and I get a 100% every time, Mark.

Mark Senell [:

You've been in the industry too. Come on.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I have. Yeah.

Carolyn Ford [:

I have. and that's why for me, it's just second nature. I'm like, well, this is just common sense. Yeah. You don't click on the link from the Arabian prince. No. He's not gonna send you diamonds. Okay.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, I think that that's important for, like, an understanding, but it's really important now, for kids especially for social media. Yeah. And, you know, when you read about how the rate of, especially, girls and suicide rate has increased so dramatically since they started using social media. And then, you know, how can you use use these tools for education rather than predators having an ability to reach these children at such a young age? One of my friends super, super locked down his kids' phones, and one of the only things they could do is go to Khan Academy. And they could use the, different tools within Khan Academy, you know, has very educational programs. And then he saw his daughter playing a game, and he's like, how did you get access to this game? And she's like, oh, I built it. And he's like, oh, well, there you go. Way around the system.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

If you build your own game, you can use your own game. Right?

Mark Senell [:

This is a topic for another, podcast in In general, because this that's a really important issue. You probably do a lot with that, Amy, I guess, in the academia world.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, not just academia world, but more like, in my free time. And, you know, one of the people I'm promoting right now is Kennedy Taylor, who's Miss Maryland. And she's phenomenal, and she is a duty contractor now. She used to be a contractor who worked for me, Ernst and Young, out of Department of Energy, on my FISMO program, just super brilliant, super cyber savvy. And as miss Marilyn, she is out there on a platform trying to get to, you know, young children and get this message out. And people to realize, like, you know, you wanna talk about diversity and equity and inclusion, and you look at her and you think about the stereotyping where when you see, you know, the beauty queen. Right? But instead, she's like the cyber beauty queen. Right? And you're like, that I think the outreach message is just so tremendous there.

Carolyn Ford [:

Nice. Well, we gotta get her on, and time is beating us. So before we run out of complete time, since this episode, we're we're coming up on, New Year's resolutions. I wanna jump to our Tech Talk questions, in other words, Mark. Actually before we do that, though, I should ask, Amy, is there anything that you wanna leave us with before we go to our Tech Talk questions, which are kind of fun and maybe a little bit silly?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So there's one thing I really want to emphasize, which is my personal passionate project that I work on all the time is that people hear me talk all the time about operational technology, which if you think about operational technology, I call it technology that has an impact in the physical world. So, like, we were talking a little bit earlier about, you know, electricity. Right? That's an impact in the physical world. Department of Transportation, when you look at, you know, metro trains and, you know, all the things that move and create some kind of effect in the physical world. And when you look at where we are in cybersecurity, I'm always like, you know, we talk a little bit about innovation. You should innovate when things are not working. And right now in NetSphere, it is not working anymore. There was a Canadian report that was released.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

It's really good. There's been some reports, in the United States as well, specifically on the energy sector. And when I looked at the reports on the energy sector, I looked at the Canadian report that was very general, but the same thing is since the turn of this new decade around 2020, The increase in the cybersecurity cybersecurity attacks has been so great. It is Ford times the amount of the previous four decades. Like, that is a mind blowing number, and we absolutely have to change how we do things because it's no longer working. So a lot of times, there were old analog systems. A lot of times, you could do, you know, security through obfuscation. Like, nobody was gonna go up and find out a manual from Johnson Controls or Siemens or somewhere.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Right? And now using the same tech, we're talking about, you know, the automation, the AI. It's super easy to start finding this information very quickly. And from this information, being able to break in more easily, the remote access, the smart devices. So you'll have an analog network with a smart device on it, and suddenly, the protection that we used to get in the traditional Purdue layers, they're gone. The traditional Purdue model was fantastic. I'm not saying that we completely get rid of it, but what I am saying is we have to look at zero trust principles, and we have to adjust our thinking because those models aren't working anymore, and the more that we want these smart devices to the convenience of, you know, how many people now have smart thermostats in their house, you know, and all those different smart technologies that you have, your refrigerator beaconing out. Right? And this makes you super, super vulnerable, though, both at home and in the big industrial systems as well. So we have to do a better job there.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

It's kind of a public service announcement, you know, but when people ask why, you have to realize is the why is because it's not working anymore.

Mark Senell [:

So as the as the world becomes more dangerous and these incidents happen more frequently. It goes against human nature to be innovative during these times.

Carolyn Ford [:

So you are a whole community risk adverse. Risk adverse. How do we wanna, like, shell up?

Mark Senell [:

Yeah. How do you promote innovation or get it or or, you know, get it to happen in an environment where it's going against your human nature?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Well, I think that it goes against human nature, but the other thing about human nature is convenience. Right? We love convenience. Right? And so it's kind of like that balance of security versus convenience. And, you know, we're talking about the average user. The average user is going for convenience. And the thing about traditional, you know, how we've done operational technology. I was at a conference and there was an internal within DOE.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And when we had these discussions, manufacturers are now creating devices where the Wi Fi is embedded at a chip level. So there has been devices we get, like, where we're literally cutting out the wires and taking out the Wi Fi component. But if it's embedded in a chip level, we can't even do that. So we have to work with the vendors, and we have to relook at this kind of security because if it's comes and there's no other options, that might not be the way to go. So it's how are we gonna change this? Because the change is coming.

Carolyn Ford [:

That's great. I love if it's not It's not. It's not broken, leave it alone. Right now, cybersecurity is broken. It's time to innovate. So alright. Now we'll go to the Tech talk questions. So with the beginning

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Oh jeopardy round.

Carolyn Ford [:

With the beginning of the new year, do you, if you set new year's resolutions, do would you wanna share what what you might be setting as a new new year's resolution for 2024.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

So I don't necessarily set New Year's resolutions, but every year, I like to pick one word, right, of, like, I want this year to be the year that represents this. And this is a word that I think is super important to me right now, but I'm really looking at this concept of sustainability. And, you know, how am I doing things in a way that's giving back to the planet, that's giving back to myself that I'm looking at? I read an article about a woman who jumped out of a plane at a 104, and I'm like, I am halfway there. I wanna make it to that 104. Right? Like, How do I make sure I have that longevity? And then, you know, when I look at the planet and what we're doing, like, am I making those smart, you know, resource choices in my personal life, you know, and then how can how I how can I get back on that? So I'm really kind of looking in this concept of sustainability. And, you know, every year, I think it's kinda good because if you if you have, like, a specific goal, like, I'm gonna lose £20, like, you might not be able to achieve that. But, you know, like doesn't matter. You know? Yeah.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

And then as soon as you you slip but I think if you kind of look at it, like, this is my word for the year, and how do I move towards I pick different words, and this one

Carolyn Ford [:

Amy, I'm using I'm adding that word to my 2024. I'm writing it on my board. You write it on your board too.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Oh, you've been directed you must've sustain.

Mark Senell [:

Yeah.

Carolyn Ford [:

Yeah. I love that. Alright. You wanna ask the next Tech Talk?

Mark Senell [:

Yes. So so, Amy, you know, you're you're you're in academia. You you teach a lot of people. What advice Would you give to professionals that are looking to grow their careers?

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

I would just say network and don't be afraid. And I think that one of the things is a lot of times, like, we have these fears that hold us back. And one of the things I've really seen is this, you know, I'll have students who are sorta, like, shy or timid. They're not willing to, like, put themselves out there. And once you do, you just kinda see them blossom and grow. And so A lot of times, we're we're afraid, like, maybe, you know, you're you're outside your comfort zone. You're gonna be made fun of. This is not really your skill set.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Maybe you're not the best writer. Maybe you're not the best presenter. Most of my classes, I have that accommodation of you must write a paper and you must present. It seems like the people who write papers don't wanna present or vice versa. Right? And I and just like we're doing right now, you know, you have to be able to talk and have, like, good interaction and get your main points across, but then also you have to do well on the papers and the written work, but also just the human interaction. Like, don't be afraid to talk to people. I mean, you know, I mean, Carolyn at Billington. I mean, we wouldn't know if she hadn't just said, hey.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

How are you doing? Right? And so I think you've just gotta combine that together as, just overcome your fears.

Mark Senell [:

That's great advice.

Carolyn Ford [:

It is great advice. And you know what? When I first started podcasting, it terrified me. I it was so scary, and I still get scared. But to, like, come up and ask you to do this. You know, when I first that it used to be really hard, and now I'm like, no. I'm just gonna ask. I mean, the worst you can say is no. And then I can say, but are you sure? Because we wanna talk about what you're passionate about.

Carolyn Ford [:

So that is that is really great advice. And with that, I don't wanna make you late for your next appointment. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Amy Hamilton [:

Thank you, and happy New Year to you.

Carolyn Ford [:

Happy New Year, and thank you listeners for joining us on Tech Transforms. Smash that like button, share this episode, and we'll talk to you next week on Tech Transforms.

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