It's time to Pivot! In episode twelve of season four, hosts Terri Elton, Dee Stokes, and Dwight Zscheile reflect on the past season in this finale.

Dwight Zscheile: And if that means, you know, you're paid by the church as a professional clergy person, that's great. And if it means you're an everyday disciple, God has placed into some wonderful web of relationships or neighborhood spaces to listen and love people there, then that's equally wonderful as well. And the question for the church and those of us involved in theological education and leadership development is how do we embrace all of that?

Terri Elton: Welcome to Pivot. I'm Terri Elton from Luther Seminary.

Dwight Zscheile: I'm Dwight Zscheile.

Dee Stokes: And I'm Dr. Dee Stokes.

Terri Elton: And we are concluding our fourth season of Pivot with this question. What is the pivot that needs to happen to cultivate leaders for a mixed ecology? So the three of us have been hosting this season and I wonder if, Dwight, you would start us off and remind us like, where did we start with this whole thing on mixed ecology?

Dwight Zscheile: Yes. So thinking about how innovative forms of church can coexist and thrive alongside inherited traditional forms of church in ways that speak to the variety of people in today's neighborhoods. That's really what we began wondering about in this season of Pivot.

Terri Elton: And we heard lots of stories about how things got started and from different people that were doing it. Dr. Dee, what's one thing, one story, one episode that really stuck with you as we're moving through this season?

Dee Stokes: Of course, we had a couple of my Seeds alums on episodes, so I guess I'll have to share a story about them. May I? So I want to I actually wanted to start with this thought: In the UK a couple of years ago, they did some research that was really eye opening in terms of they did it for church planters and I was talking to someone and they asked me to compare to what we need in the US and it really was the same. Church planters, and I'll extend that to church leaders, need a champion, a coach, a mentor, someone to help guide them. They need in time training learnings and they also need a community. And if we understand in the church in America that pastors are lonely and really need each other, how can we get them together? How can they become a cohort? How can we put leaders, not just pastors, but leaders together for the kingdom so that they can stay in business even, if you will? And so that's one of the things that we've tried to do at Seeds. Of course, one of our buzzwords is that we want to be in community. We want to relate, right, relate, accelerate and share. And so what we've found over the last three years is that the relational piece is the biggest piece that these apostolic leaders are out here by themselves. They think they're Elijahs in the cave hiding, where are the prophets? And then they come to seeds and they find out where the prophets are and where the people are who are doing the work. And so Roz and JD joined us in an episode, two different episodes, and they talked about starting. JD, talked about starting dinner church and Roz talked about being in an inherited church and doing some things from the inherited church model, but neither one of them talked about doing anything - I don't know if I should use this word - old or outdated or or too traditional, and that's what this season has been about, that we as the church need to learn to do things that are outside the box. In seeds, we say there is no box, We don't play in a box, we don't play outside the box. There actually is no box. We can create the box if we want to, but we play in our own free world, if you will. And so, yeah, that's what this is about. How can we be the church in the world and present the gospel? Right? The gospel is the same, but how we present it has to be different to reach the world.

Terri Elton: Dr. Dee I thank you for that. And one of the things that you said that resonating with me is in addition to community is just in time resources. During the season that we've had here with Pivot, I've been working with the ELCA to rethink the candidacy process and we did a survey and we were looking at what are some of the opportunities and challenges of for current and future leaders. And one of the things that became so critical in that, from that study, was that we have to separate theological education from degrees. I think we have collapsed those things and we've even collapsed, I think leadership development into like you do this in this very formal way. And I think it's gotten all kinds of congregations due to caterers just lay people off the hook about really digging into scripture, cultivating leadership within congregations and really empowering people, which were some of the things that we heard in those stories around empowering people to follow their passion and then to equip them along the way as we go. So one of the things I'm taking away from this season and cultivating leaders for this mixed ecologies: weve got to just not think about how do we educate clergy or the formal track leaders for ministry in a traditional inherited structure way? But how do we open up our imagination around accompanying people in various ways, around the kind of competencies and the kind of aptitudes that they need to lead in a 21st century reality, so we witness to the gospel?

Dee Stokes: I agree wholeheartedly with you. What the world does is they say, don't go to school, go get a certificate, you know, learn a trade, learn how to do something better. But you don't have to go to school to get a degree to do it. And so you see that in education. You see that in government. You see that in every mountain of society except the church. Right? And so we need to get ahead of what the world is doing and do it differently. So, yes, there are other ways to learn. There are other ways to get certifications. There are other ways to get what you need in ministry without getting a degree. And I think the "just in time" learning and resources really need to be more readily available.

Dwight Zscheile: So I want to wonder with us about what a mixed ecology of theological education itself might look like. Where we can recognize that maybe some people will be called to do traditional seminary kind of experience. Maybe they need a master's degree in order to be, you know, to go deep and understanding for their particular call. But but others may not need that, as you're saying. Dr. Dee, and how might theological schools make available to them where they are resources digitally? Of course, we have the technology now to allow us to do that, but also opportunities to connect, right? So because one of the key things that I'm hearing you both talk about is the importance of connection and community, as leaders are doing this work. Jesus sent the 70 out two by two. We've heard in our stories from leaders cultivating fresh expressions how important it is not to go alone, and I think the idea that the days when people would simply come to a particular location to get educated theologically and then go back out, those are mostly passed. Even most seminaries now are offering either distributed, you know, online education or hybrid experiences where people come together for intensives. Our own institution does that. And we have this opportunity now to meet people where they are, partly so that we can keep them in their ministry contexts and to make the most of those contexts rather than necessarily pull them out of those contexts. So what might a mixed ecology imagination bring to thinking about theological education overall?

Dee Stokes: Well, I'm going to use the term "incarnational" because fresh expressions uses that term quite a bit. And I think how we can have the mixed ecology in terms of learning and education is to literally be incarnational. So go to the people. We're talking about taking, not taking them out of their context, but somehow going to them creating cohorts in churches, creating cohorts in communities where they can do hybrid learning. They could go they could be a part of a learning community. They could do different things. I think we call that faith lead. And so everybody should have a faith lead. And so we're trying to do that. We're putting people together and learning communities. We go to churches and go to the people to help train. We do retreats, we do all kinds of things, and I think we just need to keep doing that and giving them what they need.

Terri Elton: So I was thinking along similar lines, Dee, about context so matters. And I think we have so taken ministry out of the context as if there's something there. And I think what this mixed ecology forces us to take so much more seriously is: what are the questions of your people? What are the longings of their hearts? What are the the stories that long to be told? And there's not a community of people to hold the stories together and ask the big God questions. And part of what is exciting to me about this time, and I think this is the 30 some, 40 years of being in ministry of the shift from solving a problem that's technical or or on a surface level to going to what's the adaptive God question or what's God moving underneath? And I think for me, the exciting part about this moment in our church is that there's been many years that felt like the story was decline. And now in this mixed ecology, it feels like God is having all these little things come to bear. Like the sowing of the sower and all these green seeds, if you will, Dee, are sprouting. And we as the tenders, need to shift our posture from like taking them away and ignoring them to fostering them in community. And I think God and the Spirit are up to some things in our midst. And it forces me as a person from a theological education posture place to say, how do I join the context, how do I learn from the context and help nurture those kind of life that is coming from other ways. And I think you both have said it in different ways. What does it mean to be a networked church rather than an institutional church, one that's dynamic, that's life giving, that's trying to foster and learn from what the spirit is up to? I don't know. What do you two think?

Dwight Zscheile: So I think the idea of networks is really important. One of the things that we inherited from particularly the mid to late 20th century denominational world is a kind of highly bureaucratic sized standardized approach or mental model, if you will, or paradigm for how to think about organizing the church. But we live in what Manuel Castells calls a network society in today's world. And so those 20th century, you know, regulatory bureaucracies where everything's supposed to be standardized in some ways, you know, clergy are educated or leaders are educated like interchangeable parts in a big machine. That has broken down. And what we have instead now are flows of information and relationship, very different mental model, much more of a networked one. So I think networks are simply the reality contextually of the world we live in today in an Internet age. What might it look like for the church to actually indwell and embrace that as we think about how to equip leaders and connect them and organize them? Now, one of the things that people often get afraid of when they think about a network model is things like accountability, supervision, you know, all of that. And it's possible to do that in a network structure just as it is in a, you know, bureaucratic structure. Just that it is in a traditional hierarchical structure from before, but it operates differently. So I'm curious, what are the flows of life giving energy and connection at the grassroots among the leaders that God is is calling into this work? And how might the structures of the church, because we still need structures, actually support that life giving energy and connection rather than impose boxes that actually disrupt or interfere with what God's trying to do.

Dee Stokes: Networks is where it's at. That is where the church is moving and we need to get on the boat. I was recently asked to be a part of what I would call a network by one of our Seeds alums, a black missional convening. It was for black led congregations, black and multiethnic led congregations, people who were leaders. And we were so shocked at how many people signed up. And we were shocked at the response afterwards that they want to meet again. Let's meet up. Let's go to these conferences and have a meetup. Let's have this again. We did it online, but let's meet in person. Let's I mean, we had over 100 people sign up from all over the country and we were not expecting that. As matter of fact, when he asked me to belong to be a part of it, I said, well, no, I don't have time to to to plan it. You know, I don't have time to do that. But I'll come and I'll support and I'll speak and help you a little bit. And I thought it was just going to be a conversation with a few people in the room and they just knocked our socks off. So people really want to network. People want to to know other people. I'll put it to you this way. I wanted to share this story. Maybe this is appropriate time. When I was a basketball coach, the biggest thing I miss about coaching basketball is the family atmosphere. So 20 of your family would go everywhere together, right? So we'd eat in restaurants together. We'd be in the same hotels together. But the people that I worked with were my friends. I spent the most time with them. I, you know, we did everything together. And so they became my family. And of course, our players were like our children. Right? And so I miss that. I've lost that, to be honest with you, because I have not found that in church and I'm a pastor and but I can't find that kind of camaraderie and that kind of networking and that kind of attention that you pay to people when you see them every day and work with them every day. And I think that's what people, particularly people, solo pastors, really have my heart, you know, that are there by themselves every day. They need a network. They need people to love on them. And it's just become even more evident because of COVID.

Terri Elton: So I want to speak to the accountability with the networks that you talked about, Dwight. For me, I think of the conversation that we had with Pastor Wole and how he's literally taking stone empty buildings that are cold, cold. At the time we talked to him, he was freezing in this London building that had been vacant and new life was coming in a historic place where the gospel had been witnessed, but it had gone dormant. I left that conversation just energized to do my job. And I think of Pastor Kerri, who moved from California to rural Minnesota and started having prayer and pie and and all of these things on the farm and blending together a life of spirituality and the community that they're creating is exactly what you're what you're talking about, for people that are longing for it. And so I wonder if not only, and the the flow of networks is important and the noticing where the energy comes from. But I wonder if our accountability has been misplaced. I think we've held people accountable to the wrong metrics or the wrong telos, the wrong vision. And I wonder if God is inviting us in this moment to say, what does it mean to be church and to witness to this transformational gospel? And if you're doing that, then like, who cares what your degrees are? Or who cares if you're in a building or, you know, like there's a lot of places to have difference with regard to that. But I wonder if we could start trying to figure out what's that thing we're going to be held accountable to, because I think the accountability is not the problem. It's what are we going to be held accountable to? And the energy that comes, like you said Dee, when you're actually doing the conversation with the people with that same kind of big vision and that sense that God's pushing us to do something, let's do it. Let's learn together and on the way.

Dwight Zscheile: You know, love what you're saying, Terri. And I think I want to wonder about accountability to God's call in our lives and accountability to the call to share the gospel, with all people without exceptions, in today's world. So what might it look like? I'm just imagining here a thriving ecosystem again, ecology, where everyday disciples are equipped to be witnesses in their spheres of influence in the places that they are spending time already to, to be open to spiritual conversations, to start those with their neighbors, to be people who are known for how well they and how lovingly they listen to their neighbors. And out of that listening, find ways to give an account for the hope that is within them in Christ. And that behind them and around them there is a whole community, a whole team, if you will, to use your metaphor Dee, of people supporting them, sharing, backing them up, encouraging them and equipping them, and that all of the gifts of the body of Christ are actually animated in that process. And so in the fresh expressions world, you know, they talk about pioneers or innovators or starters. And then there are those who are supporters and those who are permission givers or authorizers. And all of those roles are really important. And so we think about in our world today, let's work back from that call that we assume God gives to all members of the Body of Christ to be loving ambassadors or witnesses for the healing and love that we know in Jesus and the power of the Spirit to the people that God has placed in their lives already and to those who are in their neighborhoods. How do we work back from equipping them to be able to fulfill that call? I think that would be very provocative, for instance, for theological seminaries, you know, to think, okay, that's the design challenge we have. We want to actually solve that. And if you were designing for that, you might have something different than what we have inherited in terms of how theological education is structured in some ways, I suspect.

Dee Stokes: Before we get out of this season of Pivot, I want to add one more thing. Accountability could be more possible if we had better mentorship. We have lost, in my opinion, the ability to mentor. And mentorship is biblical. We need people to mentor us. We need to be mentors, those of us who are getting a little older need to mentor the people who are a little younger. And when I say mentorship, I don't just mean in just in the things of God, right? Just discipleship in that way. Because discipleship is apprenticeship. You, you, you follow me as I follow God. Right? And what I mean is we need to do that in our jobs, right? Bring people along in our jobs and help them. And I have a friend who actually is doing that, who's matching 40s to 70s with 20s to 30s in the same profession to love on them, teach them about Jesus, and also teach them about the things in their profession that they need to know. So we've lost the ability to mentor and I think I need my mentor to hold me accountable. You know, I need to hold accountable the folks that I mentor. And I think that's also a part of accountability. And and that could mean holding us accountable to God, right? Holding us accountable to the thing that God has called us to do. And when we want to quit and get out of what God has called us to do, then our mentor will call us and hit us over the head if necessary, and say, "Now, you know better than that." And I just think mentorship is a big deal and we need to bring that back in the body of Christ.

Terri Elton: I'm going to say an "Amen" there. Usually you get to do that. But I. I love that I'm hearing a couple pivots. Let me just check if I'm and you guys tell me if you hear more. As we think about cultivating leaders in this mixed ecology, we need to pivot, you were talking about Dwight, to a bigger vision. That this gospel message is for all people. And frankly, we're not doing that, right? So it's a bigger vision. It's imagining and sharing that commitment to a bigger vision. I hear a shifting from institutional thriving to ecology thriving. Like is the whole thing working or is not just the institutional kind of mechanisms going? And that's a big shift for some of us in the mainline church that have really relied on those structures to hold us, and they're no longer sufficient within that. I hear us shifting from a solo where everybody's an entity on leadership on their own. Like you got to just buck up camper and do it to a mentorship, a communal "do it in community with other people on the journey," apprenticeship, the whole thing. That's a that's a different mindset about how to lead. And then I hear, at least I'm taking this one as a theological educator. A shift from classrooms to cultivate leaders to greenhouses, communities that are really set up to nurture the development of leadership. I think I missed some. What other pivots might you two, have heard?

Dwight Zscheile: I think that's good, Terri, I mean, I think the one thing I might add is from a one size fits all model to really meeting people where there are and the in the uniqueness of what God's called them to do. And if that means, you know, you're paid by the church as a professional clergy person, that's great. And if it means you're an everyday disciple whom God has placed into some wonderful web of relationships or neighborhood spaces to to listen and love people there, then that's equally wonderful as well. And the question for the church and those of us involved in theological education and leadership development is how do we embrace all of that?

Terri Elton: So as we wrap up this season. How about if each of us offers a hope or something we'd like to offer the listeners at the end of this season? Dr. Dee, you want to start us off?

Dee Stokes: Sure. I hope and pray one that you've been blessed by this season and that you have the knowledge, the fortitude and the gumption to get off the couch and into something good in your neighborhood. Boy, I just made a rhyme that was good. Dwight?

Dwight Zscheile: Yes. So my hope is that those listening who have roles of authority in the church might reimagine and give permission and support to all of those who maybe don't feel like they have authority in the church to do this work, and that we might all learn together and the Holy Spirit will bring about something new, even in the midst of the decay of the old. And that's we know that's what God's work is in Scripture and in history. God's always doing that. May we see that in our generation as well.

Terri Elton: And my hope is for leaders, lay leaders, paid leaders, clergy, not clergy. People that have felt supported and not supported by the church in their leadership role. To understand that taking a risk for the sake of the gospel is a spiritual practice. And that you have to do it. And sometimes the first step is doing that. And I hope that, like Dee said, this might get some of you that have been hesitant to to lean more into that by hearing a story or something, or those of you that have been burned in the past would do whatever you need to do to let that hurt go away and lean in again and find some partners to do it with. And those of you that are feeling burnt out are lonely but know you're supposed to keep doing, find some people to do this with because the only way we're going to be the faithful people of God in this time is to risk and to risk with a leaning into the spirit. And I hope that we found some people around the globe that have been doing that that will give you some inspiration. So I just want to say thanks to my co-hosts this season to Dwight Zscheile and Dee Stokes. We have had a fun time doing this. I can hardly wait to share some of these episodes with other people and to see what that will do within the church. So blessings to you from the Pivot podcast, staff and team, and I hope you enjoyed this season.

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