Grace and Katelyn tackle the complexities of debate in the modern world. They delve into how the decline of public debate and the rise of echo chambers have led to a lack of empathy and understanding. Featuring a mix of anecdotes and historical context, they touch on influence of Art Bell's Coast to Coast AM, the impact of JFK Jr. and the challenges surrounding the two-party system. The dialogue emphasizes the pursuit of a multi-party system to foster healthier public discourse and debates.

00:00 The Fear of Debate in Today's Society

01:35 The Evolution of Debate and Media Influence

02:02 Art Bell: A Pioneer of Paranormal and Political Radio

06:07 The Impact of Social Media and Misinformation on Debate

07:59 Empathy and Contribution: Keys to Healthy Debate

20:32 The Political Landscape and the Quest for Bipartisanship

25:30 The Case for a Third Party and Local Political Engagement

26:33 Lighter Conversations and Personal Anecdotes

Copyright 2024 Grace Cowan

• All Things Frogmore Stew
• AP-NORC Poll - Most Americans Share Core Beliefs
• ART BELL, UFO'S & the MYSTERIES OF the UNIVERSE - Art Bell & Investigative Journalist Jim Marrs (youtube.com)
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Grace: 00:00:00

So today we are going to talk about debate, which, is such an interesting topic because people are so afraid of debate right now. People afraid to even make a political comment but everything is political. We're also now afraid to even talk how do you think that's come about? What, Has changed in our country

Katelyn: 00:00:25

I think it's a number of different things, but I think it does go back to the conversation we had about infotainment, social media, the dawn of the 24 hour news station, news being, part of massive conglomerates.

Katelyn: 00:00:39

What it boils down to, simply, is that we assume we are right all the time. All the time. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to have a conversation with anyone who is a hundred percent sure that they're correct, because it's kind of and yet we've all become know it alls on social media and in our conversations. And we've stopped listening and being curious and having empathy for another person's viewpoint. And that's, become dangerous.

Grace: 00:01:11

I live with two teenagers, so I'm right about nothing. It doesn't matter what it is, clothes, politics, anything, I have nothing. I have no game in my house.

Katelyn: 00:01:25

Yeah, you've got about 10 years until you start knowing something again.

Grace: 00:01:29

Maybe when they're in their mid twenties, they'll come back around and be like, You did know how to make pasta sauce.

Katelyn: 00:01:34

Exactly.

Grace: 00:01:35

When I was researching today, this thing came up it was saying that, debate used to happen in the public sphere in newspapers, like in editorials and opinion pieces.

Grace: 00:01:47

And those then led to, the water cooler conversations or the dinner table conversation. There was some talk radio, but not a ton, way back in the day. The newspaper really used to be what directed debate.

Grace: 00:02:02

In the 70s, there was this show that started, and it's actually still going on in this day, made me laugh because I feel like this is the beginning of the political conspiracy movement the guy's name was Art Bell. On Coast to Coast AM is what the name of the show is. And it's now on 500. stations reaching 3 million to 15 million people.

TJ: 00:02:22

All right, stop. Just I want you to know you start bad mouthing Art Bell. I'm going to stop this show.

Grace: 00:02:28

I'm not gonna badmouth him!

Katelyn: 00:02:30

Hi, T. J.

Grace: 00:02:34

Oh my god, when I was writing that, I knew TJ was gonna pop into this.

TJ: 00:02:39

I'm sorry, I lived for that show.

Grace: 00:02:41

So talk radio show dedicated to paranormal activities and political conspiracies.

TJ: 00:02:47

Yes.

Katelyn: 00:02:50

No wonder you produced this show, TJ.

Grace: 00:02:54

Okay, tell us more, TJ. Tell us about this show.

TJ: 00:02:57

He was, just an absolutely unique character.

TJ: 00:03:03

And I never knew whether to believe who I thought he was or not. He lived in the high desert, and he knew how to speak every alien language and knew all about the Anunnaki's and knew all about, the lizard people that, came here and it was just a way to hear about a world that I didn't know existed.

Katelyn: 00:03:25

And probably doesn't exist?

Grace: 00:03:27

I was gonna say, when we said we're getting into debate, I didn't realize this is where it was going.

Katelyn: 00:03:34

We are debating the reality of aliens.

Grace: 00:03:36

Yes. But what I read about him is that he was, he was a master showman, and that he didn't necessarily accept every guest's claims, but he offered them a forum where they would not be openly ridiculed, and he was one of the few talk show hosts who did not screen incoming calls.

Grace: 00:03:55

And every, person with any type of idea could come onto his show, and he was very kind and, communicative with them in giving them a platform.

TJ: 00:04:09

That's exactly who Art Bell was. And that's why I loved him.

Announcer: 00:04:13

is Coast to Coast AM, with Art Bell. Now, here again is Art.

Art Bell: 00:04:18

Here again I am, Jim Mars is my guest, he'll be right back. We're discussing the secret government, and we're discussing, we're about to be discussing, UFOs, secrecy, and uh, agendas. Once again, here is Jim Mars.

Art Bell: 00:04:35

Uh, Jim, I've got a fax here asking to clarify what his remote viewer friend David Morehouse saw concerning ATs in his visions.

Jim Marr: 00:04:44

Well, that's a great question. In fact, I'm going to tell you that it was my, my, uh, investigation and study of remote viewing that led to me writing the book on, uh, alien agenda.

Art Bell: 00:04:54

I have not heard you say that before.

Jim Marr: 00:04:56

It was the remote viewing that pushed me over the edge. It was the remote viewing that showed me that it's, that it, it is real. And this is why the government has tried to downplay and poo poo the whole remote viewing thing. Art, and your audience, listen to this. Every single military trained remote viewer had direct knowledge of the UFOs and the ETs. Every one of them. They all saw it. They all know it's real.

Grace: 00:05:25

But in addition to a lot of the paranormal activity stuff, he also, entertained through his guests, many political conspiracies.

Grace: 00:05:35

Prior to him, there wasn't this open ended question that talk radio hosts would ask there were opinion pieces, but it wasn't like giving a massive platform to do the type of infotainment like Tucker Carlson does or what Rush Limbaugh does, or even Alex Jones ask a question, plant a seed then pretend like it's real. And then, spread it to hundreds of millions of people.

Katelyn: 00:06:05

When you listen to someone over and over again, and every day they become a part of your day to day reality and you trust their voice and you trust the things that are coming out of their mouth and you begin to stop questioning whether or not what they're saying to you is real because you start to feel like you have a relationship with them and you have to continue to question these people because they have motives and the people paying them have motives. I think the relationship that we create in our heads knowingly or unknowingly is part of the reason that we don't Question anymore.

Katelyn: 00:06:39

And perception is nine tenths of reality, way we are going to approach a debate is due to our perception.

Grace: 00:06:48

I read this other piece as long as the cold war was going on, the world seemed to make sense to the degree

Grace: 00:06:55

that we were good, Russia was bad, there was this sense of good and evil and once we were deprived of a defined enemy, the world for Americans became much more difficult to understand and since then, we haven't really had a specifically defined enemy.

Grace: 00:07:16

Then people start looking for those forces of good and evil and to your point of, everyone wanting to be right, I think that's part of it. I think that there is this unsettled sense, of not knowing what's real.

Grace: 00:07:34

And that stems from this not having a Enemy.

Katelyn: 00:07:38

The problem is the enemy has become the opposite political party. That's right. Republicans calling Democrats snowflakes, Democrats calling Republicans deplorables.

Katelyn: 00:07:48

It's battle language that we're using when we're referring to basically 50 percent of the population. And that's going to get us nowhere. The University of Oregon professor, Jennifer Reynolds, a professor of law. She says the two most valuable pieces you can bring to a debate are empathy and contribution.

Katelyn: 00:08:09

Empathy is key to solving problems. It's key to changing both your own mind and somebody else's. And if you don't have empathy often when you come to the argument, you're not even arguing or debating about the same thing. You basically debate past. Each other, which all of us have seen on social media.

Katelyn: 00:08:29

And the second component of that is contribution. That no one person is entirely to blame for the fact that the debate is happening. And if you come to a debate with those two pieces,

Katelyn: 00:08:43

even if nothing has changed, you're much more likely to walk out feeling heard and the other person remaining in a positive relationship with you in some way, shape, or form.

TJ: 00:08:55

And I think too, right up until the Cold War ended, we all lived with the same basic truth. What we knew, we all knew.

TJ: 00:09:07

We looked at it from different angles, and we had different opinions about it, but bottom line was, that was our truth. Now we can't even say that we know the same truth anymore So when we get into a debate, it's not going to be a debate of how to look at the facts. It's a debate about your facts are wrong, my facts are right.

TJ: 00:09:30

And you're not going to win or lose that. Everything now is based on, Somebody's own truth and not on mutual facts.

Grace: 00:09:40

I think the Internet has created this massive platform for anybody to say anything, but it, eliminates a gatekeeper.

Grace: 00:09:49

At one point, you were held to a higher standard in order for something to be reported as truth.

Grace: 00:09:56

And the internet just completely eliminates that gatekeeper. When you lose that, plus add in this conspiracy minded way of communicating and then you couple that with the amount of misinformation, we don't know where to go up or down.

Grace: 00:10:14

How can you even have a conversation it feels just so unsettled right now.

Katelyn: 00:10:19

Gatekeeper seems like you're keeping something from me, whereas I look at pre social media as I was learning from the news.

Katelyn: 00:10:28

I trusted that when Dan Rather was talking to me that it was fact, and that, I was getting quality information. And now, because of social media, there's no filter and everything comes down to someone's perception and

Katelyn: 00:10:43

I was thinking today what kind of debate have I had that's non political and this immediate, memory of my father in law visiting from South Africa. We took him to, a baseball game here in Charleston. And the cans of beer are literally the size of your head.

Katelyn: 00:11:01

They're so large. And my father in law who comes from a country where everything is basically petite,

Katelyn: 00:11:08

everything is small. The whole baseball game, he just kept looking at me and he was why? Why do you need so much? And I was like you're paying for so much. His logic was, I don't need to pay as much.

Katelyn: 00:11:20

It's also really unhealthy. And my logic was, I don't feel like getting up and going back to buy another drink why don't I just buy two drinks at once? And we could have argued about that the whole baseball game. Finally, I said, Papu, please, I'm trying to watch the baseball game.

Grace: 00:11:34

I think it's, yes, there are definitely, different, starting places. But one of the things that I think is so risky about having debate now is being canceled.

Grace: 00:11:47

There are so many ways for you to be canceled like this social justice culture, which is also a pressing debate right now too.

Katelyn: 00:11:55

Listen, I think language matters.

Katelyn: 00:11:57

What I think has also happened though is that it has gone a step too far where people are unable to talk about really important things for this never ending fear that they're going to use the wrong language and be canceled. People are not speaking up because they feel ill equipped,

Grace: 00:12:17

then what happens, I think, is when you are afraid of that, you cocoon yourself, you only surround yourself by people that think the same way in the name of safety debate becomes like a mortal threat, you just don't get into it.

Grace: 00:12:33

Then you're just regurgitated all the same things that you think we have to really understand how to be able to get back into this conversation and healthy debate without the fear of being canceled. You have to have empathy when you're talking to someone, you have to be willing to say, I've been in this position for a long time, but I'm willing to hear another side.

Katelyn: 00:12:59

The only way that we're going to get there is if people are able to put a pause on their impulse to claim that they're correct. I don't see that happening at the rate that we're using social media. Recently, All Instagram users were logged out of their accounts, because Meta decided to turn off political content for all of its accounts, and you then had to opt in to political content, and one side of me heard the argument that, Misinformation has placed us where we are today.

Katelyn: 00:13:36

It has people believing conspiracy theories that aren't real. But the other side of me thinks, it's important for people to have access to this information and it could be seen as a way to separate people from the truth and a lot of people who are pro Palestine are claiming, for instance, right now that it's a way of silencing the pro Palestinian movement.

Katelyn: 00:13:59

And I thought it was so interesting. The two debates did not meet on social media. And yet I had people on both sides arguing that Mehta was the worst for different reasons, coming at this, argument the same way.

Grace: 00:14:14

I think that, anytime that your brain goes to this place of I am right, and this is the way that it should be, you can't live in a society with that and have a productive society, one of the things I was reading, said that applying psychological terms to uncomfortable feelings when you're in a debate is what, makes debate even worse, words like vulnerable or harassed or victimized, those are psychological terms and not really just uncomfortable feelings. And there's a very big difference between those. That's also not just limited to what terms the left uses. I think the right uses other terms that are also psychological terms like indoctrination or grooming or radicalized.

Grace: 00:15:03

When you're in a debate or when there is something that makes you uncomfortable, it's really important for all of us to not go directly to, that's indoctrination or I feel like I'm being harassed

Grace: 00:15:19

you know what I mean? We have to bring the temperature down.

Katelyn: 00:15:22

Agreed. the moderates are the ones who are the quietest right now because they're watching. The two extreme sides duke it out on 24 hour news, on social media, people would argue that liberals are preventing people from saying any word, and conservatives want to say all the things that nobody should say.

Katelyn: 00:15:45

And, it's tough.

Grace: 00:15:47

So there's a great piece in Axios, today, it's written by Mike Allen and Jim Vanderhyde, called Behind the Curtain. And the premise is basically that there's compelling evidence that through social media, cable TV.

Grace: 00:16:02

political wars, that we've been in this distortion bubble just long enough to warp our view of what true reality is around us. Deep divisions do exist on some topics, but almost every, topic of monthly outrage is fringe, and it's only amplified by the loudest voices, and then the politicians drive those loudest voices.

Grace: 00:16:27

There was a study that they published that was done in late March of all the things that we are really actually aligned with in this country. And they're probably the most important things. It's like the right of everyone to equal protection under the law. 91% agree that's extremely important.

Grace: 00:16:46

91% of people believe in the right to vote. Freedom of speech, 90% right to privacy, 88%. Freedom of religion, 84% most of us actually feel similarly and agree on a majority of the same foundational premises.

Grace: 00:17:03

When we get into these, as they call it the thought bubble of that the country is so divided, it's actually not.

Katelyn: 00:17:11

I really would love to read that article. It sounds incredible Maybe we can put it in the show notes.

Grace: 00:17:16

There was another point that they made that said in a given year, you meet thousands of people, and you spend enough time with them to appraise their character.

Grace: 00:17:27

And when you think about them, all the people that you meet over the course of a year in your life, how many of those people do you feel like our normal people who work, who love their kids, who love their friends, who love their parents, who after a hurricane come and help you clean up your yard?

Grace: 00:17:48

I can think of a gazillion of those people and Many or most of those people I could probably have a conversation with that is, a healthy debate. But because of the environment that I feel like we're in, whether it's the bubble or not, I probably would never do that,

Katelyn: 00:18:08

I think so many things that we think are gone are bubbling under the surface. My neighborhood, just put together a group text the other day so that people would be able to Take each other's packages, you know around back and I know for a fact there are people all over the political spectrum on my street And I'm grateful that we can be neighbors first I think that fabric isn't gone.

Grace: 00:18:38

So yesterday was the day that I did some research and I happened to also go to the grocery store. And when I came out to my car to put my bags in the car, I unloaded the buggy and I was about to take it back. And this man in a gigantic truck next to me, Came over and said, Oh, I'll take that back for you.

Grace: 00:19:00

And I was like, Oh, thanks so much. That's really nice. And he was like, of course. And we had a little bit of a conversation, and it was like a really pleasant, quick thing with him. And when I backed out, he had a let's go Brandon on the back of his car.

Grace: 00:19:18

It was like the universe's way of , here you go, Grace, here's your opportunity. I was like, should I wonder if I should go back and ask him some questions about politics. I didn't. But had, I just seen that truck on the road. I would have seen that bumper sticker. My head would have gone to a place about what my feelings were about this guy. And I would have never known that he was, such a super nice guy.

Grace: 00:19:43

the problem is not that we can't see the good in each other. The problem I think we have right now is that we're all afraid to let something slip. And frankly, one thing that I feel like we're missing here is that most people just don't give a shit. They don't care about politics. They want to know what you're doing this weekend. They want to know what kind of ice cream you bought at the grocery store. They want to know those kinds of things. Like most people day to day in and out We are all just getting through life.

Katelyn: 00:20:16

It's so true. My youngest sister is exactly like that. Anytime I start to bring it up, I can just see. See her eyes roll into the back of her head. And she's Kaylin goes again, and we don't even disagree on that much, but she's just like, why do we have to talk about it all the time?

Grace: 00:20:31

That brings me to John F. Kennedy Jr. Because I think that he is the perfect, culmination of all of these things we've just talked about. because he really is bringing up some other topics about our country. Why do we just have these two parties?

Grace: 00:20:51

Why is it so hard to run on one ticket or the other, unless the party deems exactly who they want it to be. And He also brings up for me a little bit of the, conspiracy theory stuff but he has been able to talk to both sides and no one knows whether he's going to hurt Trump or whether he's going to hurt Biden.

Katelyn: 00:21:14

What's your thought?

Grace: 00:21:16

First of all, I don't see a path to victory for him. I think he's pulling big enough to move the needle one way or the other. I think he's in 10 to 12%. The people that really can't vote for Trump, but really don't want to vote for Biden.

Grace: 00:21:30

They've put their expectations of a candidate on him and he can maneuver between both. If you're a hippie granola chick and you don't believe in vaccines, you're the Jenny McCarthy mom from, the early 2000s

Grace: 00:21:45

like he's your guy, right? But if you're also a moms for liberty pissed about masks and vaccine mandates, he's also your guy. But then also if you're a 70 year old Democrat and you loved the Kennedy's and you want back this vision of Camelot, he's your guy.

Grace: 00:22:05

There are so many things that if you don't love Trump or Biden, you can associate your own stuff onto Kennedy.

Katelyn: 00:22:14

It's almost like you're making an argument for a third party.

Grace: 00:22:17

I'd love to make an argument for a real third party. I don't really love Kennedy, but I know he doesn't have a chance to win I think that trump would be genius to go to Kennedy and make him his vice president if Kennedy would consider it

Katelyn: 00:22:30

I think that we are so desperate for an alternative. Yeah. That. He fits the bill purely by just being there.

Katelyn: 00:22:39

My true hope is that he pulls 5 percent from Trump and 5 percent from Biden. So it still ends up being a competition between the two versus 10 percent from one.

Grace: 00:22:49

Everyone is so frustrated with. The party producing candidates that seemingly no one wants, right? Like it feels like our political system is broken in that we have a rematch that nobody wanted in the first place. Nobody wanted this in 2020, let alone again in 2024.

Grace: 00:23:10

And So so many people, it just confirms their belief that there's nothing you can do or that the whole system is broken. And then on the national stage, the Democrats I hate to use the word gaslight, but every day they're like, no, everything's awesome.

Grace: 00:23:27

The border's not that big of a deal. It's fine. Biden's not that old. He's fine. Look how old Trump is. Feels like they're just no, everything's okay. Let's keep going. And then the Republicans are like, let's beat him. Burn this mother down. They're like, everything is wrong.

Grace: 00:23:40

Everything is bad. Everything is coming after us. I don't think there's anyone out there that feels like they have a say in what's happening. And I think that somehow RFK is making people feel heard, I don't know.

Katelyn: 00:23:56

I think he's like a Ross Perot. He's the alternative to the mainstream parties that people aren't feeling great about.

Grace: 00:24:05

Yeah, but he's got something different because I just feel like I have to go back to this.

Grace: 00:24:09

It just, it seems like he has this unique ability for the unsettled people that he's so many things that people are able to assign to him. People like this whole idea of bipartisanship that they feel like he's truly a bipartisan, even though his only experience is his last name.

Grace: 00:24:30

People seem to think that he will be this great negotiator I don't even know what he's going to negotiate. Like, why? Why would anyone think that? I find people's fascination with him really interesting.

Katelyn: 00:24:42

I guess I really don't have a strong opinion about him either way. I think that there are a lot of people who are angry that he's running because particularly on the more Democrat side, their opinion is that because Trump is such a threat to democracy, RFK is making that threat even larger. I don't know if I agree that things are All hunky dory with the democratic party. I saw something just recently about The fact that Biden’s going to put out an executive order on closing the border and there's a huge infight with regard to him rolling out what they're calling trumpian immigration efforts.

Katelyn: 00:25:19

But the reality is American people want some sort of immigration reform. And Biden tried to negotiate and that fell through and now he's got to do something.

Katelyn: 00:25:28

Really my call to the world is that we need to focus on. A third party multi party system at the local level. We have to be running independence in our, city councils and our state houses.

Katelyn: 00:25:41

We have to be interested in what people have to say outside of a two party system locally because if we start at the president. It is such a machine the amount of money you have to raise in order to be relevant or you just independently wealthy It's just too much. There's no infrastructure to run An independent president with and have them have any kind of influence in the general election every single time we do this You have republicans and democrats going Why are you throwing away your vote and people who are voting for independence saying stop telling me I’m throwing away my vote I don't believe in what either of your parties are doing.

Katelyn: 00:26:23

We have to do it, but we have to start local.

Katelyn: 00:26:26

When you apply for your first job, you don't apply for the CEO like that's all I'm saying.

Grace: 00:26:31

So let's move on to something lighter. Katelyn, do you have a whole nother thing?

Katelyn: 00:26:38

So my whole nother thing isn't exactly light, but it is some serious tea. Did you see Some serious tea? Yes, did you Spill it. Did you see that Senator, Sandy Sin is now publicly accusing her opposition that he has forced his daughter to get an abortion?

Grace: 00:26:59

I did. Yes, I did see that. This is Holy mother of God, what in the world?

Katelyn: 00:27:04

This is a Post and Courier article, and I was like, dropping my jaw as if I was reading, a tabloid.

Katelyn: 00:27:10

This is serious drama, And obviously, he vehemently denies that happened, but his poor daughter at this point, whether she had it or not. The fact that she's being dragged into this is not great, but if it is true, Sandy's got a point.

Grace: 00:27:27

Totally. And I think that probably a significant portion of the men who have passed these laws in our state have either paid for or have been involved in some type of abortion. That would be my guess. But how on earth did she find that out?

Katelyn: 00:27:45

I have no idea. I don't know. I don't. I don't know anything about it other than I just, in fact, half the article, to be fair, is probably blocked out because I just was overwhelmed by the level of political drama associated with that announcement.

Grace: 00:28:02

I read that headline the other day and I remember reading it and being like, Oh, I need to go back and read that because I wasn't even sure if I read it properly.

Grace: 00:28:11

Cause that is such, Oh my goodness, that is a really big deal. And also one, it's your medical care, you're not typically sharing that unless his daughter wanted to share it. I've just, I'm curious how she found out.

Katelyn: 00:28:24

Yeah.

Grace: 00:28:24

Okay. My whole another thing are Lulu lemon shorts. I want Lulu lemon shorts to go away. I am tired of them. In my house, in the dryer, they get lost like the socks do. And this morning, they're small. Are they? They are the ones my teenagers wear and they disappear like the tooth fairy has come and taken them away out of our house.

Grace: 00:28:52

And there's always a fight over the one pair of Lululemon shorts that we can find and everyone needs them. Both kids need them for whatever volleyball practice or whatever they have to go to that day. And. They, you can't tell what size they are on the inside.

Grace: 00:29:07

They don't have tag or anything on them so that you can distinguish between sizes. What I would like to ask the universe right now , specifically, can you either start like monogramming your shorts so that I can order them monogrammed for each of my kids, or can you just put a size in them so that I can distinguish these shorts? That's my whole other thing. It's dumb, but here we are. I've been frustrated about it all day because now I have to go to the store and buy like four more pairs of very expensive shorts so that my mornings go back to being calm.

Katelyn: 00:29:41

Listen, my youngest sister is 12 years younger than me she was the best form of birth control I could have ever had, but I will tell you.

Grace: 00:29:49

I hope she doesn't listen to this podcast.

Katelyn: 00:29:51

No, I've said that to her face. It's, and it's not because she's a bad person. It's just because taking care of a kid. A baby and basically being a third parent I realized how intense it is to be a parent. So hearing this Lululemon debacle only just reinforces my decision to be a really phenomenal aunt.

Grace: 00:30:10

Yeah. Come spend the night at my house some night before school and you'll see what happens in mornings before high school. It takes every ounce of my psychological wherewithal to get through the mornings.

Katelyn: 00:30:24

I believe it. I really do.

Grace: 00:30:26

All right, that's all the stew for today. We'll talk to you next week