Luxury, Love, and the Economic Bubbles of Pet Care

Episode 75 • 21st January 2026 • Barking Mad • BSM Partners

00:10

Jordan Tyler

From May: 2020

00:35

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And let's face it, the humanization of pets means caring for them is not only increasingly expensive, it's increasingly emotional. They don't just call us “pet parents” for nothing. Speaking of, you know how they say having a kid these days is like $20,000 or $30,000 per year investment? Ouch. And that's just getting them to 18 years old, let's not even talk about college. Well, it can cost up to $34,000 to own and care for a Giant Schnauzer over the course of its entire life, which is certainly cheaper than kids, but whew! It's still a good chunk of change.

01:13

Jordan Tyler

Now, imagine spending that much, tens of thousands of dollars, on a single item for your pet. Yep, that's what we're getting into today.

01:22

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Our pets are no longer just pets. They're treasured members of our family. But is the humanization of pets actually a good thing? Is the amount spent on your pet equal to the amount of love you have for them? And what happens when basic pet supplies like food becomes so expensive that the average American can't afford them?

01:45

Jordan Tyler

So get your popcorn ready, because we're going meta to explore what it means to be human, what it means to be pet, and why value is really in the eyes—and in the economic bubbles—of the beholder.

01:59

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. We're your host, Dr. Stephanie Clark—

02:06

Jordan Tyler

—and I'm Jordan Tyler.

02:08

Jordan Tyler

The humanization of pets… a lot of people call this a trend. I would argue it's not really a trend anymore. It's just kind of the way that the pet industry operates. It's transformed everything from the way we feed our pets, the way we play with them and engage them, and the way that we just care for them in general. But at some point, things start to seem like they're getting a little out of hand. Right? Like, did you know there are dog collars that are worth as much as, you know, like a small McMansion? There are pet products offered by Gucci, by Tiffany, by Ralph Lauren that range in price from hundreds of dollars, which might seem modest after some of the things that we're going to talk about today to thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars.

02:56

Jordan Tyler

So let's start off with, it's a brand called Posh Puppy Boutique. They sell a diamond dog collar for… actually, Michael, how much do you think a diamond dog collar could possibly cost? Don't look at your notes.

03:11

Michael Johnson

Let's say it's $50,000.

03:13

Jordan Tyler

You were close. Multiply that by five.

03:16

Michael Johnson

Wow.

03:18

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. Yeah.

03:20

Michael Johnson

This is where, you know… where your affinities lie. You know? Do you need a home or do you need a well-dressed dog?

03:28

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I would have an issue hooking a $5 leash to that collar and saying, “Come on, Barley. Let's go for a walk.”

03:39

Jordan Tyler

Right…

03:39

Michael Johnson

Ostensibly, if you're buying that collar though, you're not accessorizing with a $5 leash.

03:45

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Well, I mean, where are you taking this dog?

03:47

Michael Johnson

That's actually a really good question.

03:49

Jordan Tyler

Yep. Yeah.

03:50

Michael Johnson

Well, well, again, with something of that value around the dog's neck, where would you feel comfortable taking the dog?

03:57

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I mean, in St. Louis, dogs get kidnapped. Could you imagine if you had that around its neck?

04:03

Michael Johnson

Dog's a goner.

04:04

Jordan Tyler

Self-proclaimed on the website as, I quote, “the crown jewel of the canine kingdom.” Custom crafted and fitted to each dog. Requires a 50% deposit, so that is a $125,000 just to start the customization process. So, like, because they can be customized, sky's the limit, right? These could cost way more than a quarter million dollars. That's just like where they base it from. And I wanted to share, there's two reviews on this website, both of which I thought were hilarious. So, the first review is titled: “Not bad for the price!”

04:42

Michael Johnson

Fantastic.

04:47

Jordan Tyler

The second one…

04:48

Michael Johnson

I guess If you're in that market and you're slumming, that's not bad. “I don't usually buy a discount dog collar, but that one wasn't bad for the price.”

04:56

Jordan Tyler

“Not bad for the price!” And then the second comment reads in full: “I've tried everything from prong collars to harnesses, but my Cavapoo will not wear anything that does not cost less than a quarter of $1,000,000.”

05:11

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I hope one day someone talks to me like that.

05:14

Jordan Tyler

And it's just like a fact.

05:16

Dr. Stephanie Clark

“I've tried grandma sweaters, but nothing will do.”

05:21

Jordan Tyler

“It's just that nothing will do.”

05:22

Michael Johnson

You know, those weird Prince and the Pauper kind of movies where, you know, this would be like a good thing for that dog to switch with like a humble dog just for a bit.

05:31

Jordan Tyler

Oh, it's like that one show where, like, you have the two families that are like diametrically opposed and they trade moms.

05:37

Michael Johnson

Yeah. Yeah.

05:38

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah. Could you imagine this dog that wears this being part of, like, Homeward Bound? He for sure ain't making it.

05:45

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. He can't be bothered by that. Yeah.

05:48

Michael Johnson

He's hawking that collar in a pawn shop for bus fare. That's what's going to happen.

05:55

Jordan Tyler

I'm hawking that collar and the dog for bus fare.

05:59

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I'm hawking it for a house. Okay? Let's be honest.

06:03

Jordan Tyler

I mean, in this economy, come on.

06:07

Michael Johnson

So, let me ask you two something along those lines then. So, when you see somebody buying one of these luxury products with those kind of price tags, what's your reaction? Are you… are you jealous? Do you admire them? Are you judgy? Are you confused? What’s the reaction?

06:26

Jordan Tyler

I think I'm judgy.

06:28

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah. I was going to say I'm probably judgy and also confused because I feel like if I had that kind of money… I also want a farm with chickens. So, I'm pretty sure people would look at me and be like, you want a farm and chickens and goats and…?

06:40

Michael Johnson

Why judgy?

06:41

Jordan Tyler

I kind of wonder, now that you ask, Michael, I wonder if my judgy-ness stems from jealousy.

06:48

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I think it's a humanitarian approach to it. Like, if you have that kind of money, like, should you be doing something else? Like…

06:56

Michael Johnson

Well, you're making the call that they're not.

06:59

Dr. Stephanie Clark

True. True.

07:00

Michael Johnson

I mean, they might be donating every penny they have, and that's still left over.

07:05

Dr. Stephanie Clark

That is true. And then I'm just totally and utterly confused because my mind cannot comprehend those kinds of numbers.

07:11

Michael Johnson

So let's talk about that because I think that's when we shift into the humanization piece, you know, I think what you just said there's really interesting in the sense, what do you buy right now that somebody else would see as illogical and extravagant?

07:25

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I'm going to be real honest. We're going to just open up this book. I bought a red-light therapy mask.

07:35

Michael Johnson

You did?!

07:36

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I did. I haven't tried it yet, so don't… careful with what you say next.

07:42

Michael Johnson

I think that's a really interesting example. I know there are all sorts of scales and quality on these, but some of these—I'm not going to ask you what you paid for these—some of these are thousands of dollars.

07:53

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I I'm hopefully getting it soon. I ordered it a couple weeks ago. So, I don't know. Maybe they're making it.

08:01

Michael Johnson

So, your next podcast has to be recorded with Steph in her mask. Alright? It just you'd have to do it at least for a minute.

08:07

Dr. Stephanie Clark

That's fine. I am so stoked. If I use it and it literally works, I will like, I'll tout it from the rooftops.

08:15

Michael Johnson

If you pop out flat out radiant, I'm buying one.

08:19

Dr. Stephanie Clark

You're saying I'm not radiant right now?

08:21

Michael Johnson

No. You're radiant, but you know what I mean. Why did you buy it? You're saying you're not radiant.

08:25

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Because children do a number on you. Lack of sleep, stress…

08:31

Michael Johnson

Alright. But the general gist behind why did you buy it? What do you what do you want it?

08:36

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I want to look radiant.

08:38

Michael Johnson

Exactly. So, I didn't say that. You did. And more to the point, like I say, some people would pay thousands of dollars for those. Some of them also were supposed to grow hair.

08:47

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I don't want hair on my face.

08:49

Michael Johnson

Well, I hope that doesn't happen on your face. Yeah.

08:51

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I want the radiant part, not the hairy part. But your turn, Jordan. Same question.

08:57

Jordan Tyler

Well, I can't think of anything that like, is that, like, you know, $70,000, quarter of $1,000,000 expensive. I don't even know what quarter of $1,000,000 looks like, to be honest. But I will say we have a very expensive it's not, like, very expensive. It was a few hundred like investment upfront, and then like the litter is a little bit more expensive because of the way it is. But we have a robot litter box, and the way I've justified it is it makes our lives so much easier that it was like a 100% worth that money. But… it was an investment, and it's like, I know that's not something that every pet owner or cat owner can afford, but it does make life a lot easier.

09:40

Michael Johnson

You're not talking any kind of pure vanity, though.

09:43

Jordan Tyler

I think that's what I'm struggling with the some of the luxury brands that we've talked about, and that we researched for this episode is, I I get shelling out, you know, a good chunk of change for something that like Stephanie makes you feel like more confident or more beautiful or like more like healthful or something that like makes my life easier or is like more hygienic for me and my pets. And I kind of start to lose the plot when we talk about, you know, the quarter-of-a-million dog collar that is, like, strictly for aesthetic purposes.

10:17

Michael Johnson

But the value of that is in the eye of the beholder. Right? So, I'm guessing, you know, as a musical family, I'm guessing you've shelled out a fair amount of money on music and musical instruments and things like that other people would say, “Really?”

10:32

Jordan Tyler

That's an excellent point, Michael. Yeah. Like, I was shocked to learn how much a cello bow costs.

10:40

Michael Johnson

And I don't even know what that is. I'm assuming it goes to the cello. But the point is, we all have our things. We all have things that would make somebody else go, that's one way to live your life.

10:50

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I mean, clearly, they're still in business. Right? Like, they didn't just sell one dog collar and then they went out of business.

10:58

Michael Johnson

Well, you could, though. You could just sell one dog collar and collar a day.

11:04

Dr. Stephanie Clark

You could.

11:05

Jordan Tyler

Well, Michael, I appreciate your point. And by the way, I totally agree. But, I mean, all that's to say no dog really needs a $250,000 collar. Right? We're talking need here. And the answer is no. So, if it's not about what the pet needs, what's really driving all of this? Like what's pushing people to spend this much on our pets? And how do you think the humanization of pets is shaping today's pet care ecosystem?

11:36

Michael Johnson

You know how I feel about humanization. Right? Humanization is just it is absolutely real, and it's the dumbest term, you know, possibly imaginable. But if we use it on the, you know, let's say the base definition of that is if it's in the human world and we like it in the human world, we want it for our pets. Let's just use that as a very, very, you know, simple definition of the word. You know, it's human nature. It just makes sense. Right? I understand this. I get it. I can find it. It works for me. It'd be great if there was one for fluffy. And so, I think it goes beyond humanization here, though, you know. Because you mentioned yourself, you know, you splurged for a Litter Genie? What did… whatever the automated—well, I don't want to throw out a brand! You've splurged for whatever that was.

12:36

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. I can't even remember what the brand is actually. So…

12:40

Michael Johnson

Yeah. And to you, that was important. Right? I'm not saying it's not important. The point is it was important to you. To a lot of people, you know, that would either be not affordable or—and this the part that I think is key here about the argument I want to make—to a lot of people, that is such an extravagance. It's unimaginable.

13:03

Jordan Tyler

Mhmm.

13:04

Michael Johnson

And so, you know, I want to throw out the example. You know, you mentioned, you know, the $250,000, you know, dog collar. The person that commented that their dog wouldn't be seen in anything less than that value. Okay, who is that person? We know what her value judgment is here. We don't know what her moral judgment is. I think what we're seeing with a lot of this stuff, and I think it's honestly better than the term humanization, is really, you know, pet lifestyle branding, if you will. My pet is really going to echo my life, my style, my values, you know, my wherewithal, not necessarily because I think it's any better or any worse for the pet, but just because that's the life I know. And so, let's go back to this woman.

13:59

Michael Johnson

You know, I'm going to introduce the term of basically economic bubbles. Right? We all live in an economic bubble, and this lady clearly lives in an economic bubble. And I think when we're talking about the pet industry, you know, I think we all tend to… I mean, raise your hand and think I'm wrong. We all tend to think we're the average consumer in pet. Right? “This is what people buy. They buy what I buy. They buy how I buy, or they probably should buy how I buy.” You know? “I'm educated enough about it.” You know? “My earnings are blah blah blah, and that's about, you know, commensurate with what I'm buying. People buy like me. People think about pet like me.”

14:41

Michael Johnson

Just to throw out some stats, there are 17 million to 19 million people—or million households, I guess—in this country that make $200,000 plus a year. That's a staggering amount of households and a really good income. To take that a step further, there are nearly a 130,000, households in this country that make a million or more per year. Just to put some perspective around that, there are people who take a, you know, who'll charter a cruise, for lack of a better word, take a chartered cruise for one week, and some of these things start at a minimum of $100,000 a week. And that is not a lot of money. That's what I choose to do for my vacation. You and I, and hopefully, Steph, we cannot fathom that economic bubble. Right? What does that look like? Right?

15:38

Michael Johnson

What high country are you living in, you know, when you're dropping a $100,000 on a one-week vacation? Right? That's a lot of money. I want to give you another example, and think of it like this. There are celebrities, and they're actually ones that fall under this, and so I'm not going to name any. But there are celebrities who have car collections that are valued at a $100 million. But let's assume that this celebrity, you know, net worth half a billion. Right? So 20%—and again, there are actual celebrities that fit both of these descriptors, so I'm not making this up. There are people that fall into this bucket. If my net worth is $500 million and a $100 million of that is tied up in cars, 20% of my income is tied up in this car collection.

16:31

Michael Johnson

The average American—and we're going to look at the median net worth of Americans, not the mean—it's just over $200,000. And so, if 20% of my net worth is tied up in a vehicle, that's $40,000, and that's less than the average price of a new car right now. And so, we look at some of these dollar amounts, and we're just flummoxed by them. But for them, it's just everyday spending. You know? Like, we're buying your, you know, average mid-tier automobile. They're filling that garage with cars because what else do I have to spend it on? And so, the sheer the sheer breadth of these economic bubbles, I think, is what blows our minds when we look at some of these, you know, what we would deem very extravagant pet products because, wow, what would you do with that?

17:23

Michael Johnson

To them, what else would I buy? I mean, you know, I've never seen one that costs $10. I didn't know you could do that because everything I get, all the people I surround myself with, all the social media I view, if I'm not spending $50,000 on that, this is there's something wrong with me. You know? I'm a cheapskate. And economically, again, you know, $50,000 sounds like a lot of money. To a lot of people, it's just not. You know? That's… this is logical spending for my pet. You know? You use the word humanization. We think our pets are our family. We think our pets are our children. We did a study that shows that 50% of American pet owners actually think their dog is a person, is a human. You know, it goes beyond it's a member of the family.

18:14

Michael Johnson

It's a human. So, if it's $32,000 a lifetime to raise a Giant Schnauzer, you've seen things from the Bureau of Labor, you know, saying it's $20,000 a year to raise a child, you know, through age 18. Is that really a lot of money? And, again, if I have a whole lot of wherewithal and this Giant Schnauzer is my child, $32,000 lifetime? That's nothing. Right?

18:44

Michael Johnson

Yeah.

18:45

Michael Johnson

I mean, that's pocket change. I'm just blowing that. And so, it took me a while to reconcile with it because, again, it is ridiculous amounts of money. It's just, you know, when there are people out there that can buy a Lamborghini, you know, as easily as you would buy a Snickers bar because it's the same percentage of income, is $250,000 that extravagant? Would you buy a Snickers bar for your dog?

19:13

Michael Johnson

I mean, you wouldn't, but you know what I mean? Would you shell out $3, you know, adjusted income for your dog? Of course you would. It's just the scope of what some of these people are making is really what's mind blowing. As a country, you guys have heard the term Gini coefficient. It's a measurement of a country's income inequality. We have a very high ratio of income inequality in the United States. And so, you know, we have people that would look at your lifestyles and say, “That's unbelievable.” You know, you can eat out anytime you want. You know, you can probably buy something. I don't know what, but you can buy something or something for your pet anytime you want. There are people that would find that just unbelievable.

20:01

Michael Johnson

And so, you know, we have a hard time extrapolating that beyond our bubble, because how could somebody drop something worth more than my house on their dog? But if I'm worth half a billion dollars, you know, I probably buy lunches more than your house. I didn't mean to put this kind of sobering on the call. It's just…

20:23

Jordan Tyler

Seriously? No. I think that perspective is important because I do think that, like, we can get, like, you know…

20:28

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Still want to be judgy.

20:32

Jordan Tyler

But it really does, like, it does just depend on, like, what lens you're seeing the world through. And to, like, say it how Michael said it, you know, which economic bubble are you in? I think kind of what I'm interested in talking a little bit about is it seems like the humanization of pets, the premiumization of pet care, like, those two things have gone hand in hand. But it seems like we're premiumizing and we're humanizing the entire market. And we're really starting to like demonize, you know, options for pet owners that are more affordable for like the general population of pet owners. And so I'm like, where is the disconnect here? Like, obviously we should all, whatever economic bucket we're in, we should all be able to spend our money in the way that makes us happy. Absolutely. That's the American dream, but…

21:28

Michael Johnson

It's a great question.

21:30

Jordan Tyler

…but, yeah, where's the disconnect? At what point does this become just the way of the pet industry to where we're pricing average people out of the ability to simply feed their pet. Right?

21:41

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Where's the Taco Bell option?

21:43

Michael Johnson

Even Taco Bell is not that inexpensive anymore.

21:46

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I know. We'll have some words of Taco Bell. But, like, I want to ask you too. Like, I know you hate the word humanization. What would you call it? Because, I mean, is it really humanization?

21:57

Michael Johnson

It is exactly what I would call it, I just hate the term. Right? Our pets again, I use the term basically, you know, lifestyle scaling, lifestyle compatibility. You know, our pets are going to mirror whatever our lifestyle is. It's just how it works. You can call it humanization, but it's just really you know, my pet's lifestyle and my lifestyle are going to echo each other because I'm honestly the one spending the money, and I'm honestly the one making the decisions. You know? My pet may have a moral problem with the $250,000 collar, but he's not making that decision. So, Jordan, back to your point, I prefer the term priced out to demonized when we're talking about this.

22:43

Michael Johnson

I mean, I think it's true, but I think it's very, very unfortunate, you know? Businesses in general, unless you are and again, I don't mean to—I'm going to use the word demonize here—I don't mean to demonize any business, you know, but unless you're a flat-out charity, you follow the money. Right? And I want to be able to make money. You know? A fundamental rule of business, the rule of business is a company exists to make money. You know? If I can't do that, I'm not going to be a business. And so, obviously, I'm going to go to where that spend is. Your point, though, is very valid, and it's something I've argued for years.

23:20

Michael Johnson

You know, somebody making $50,000 a year, you know, with a family of four in a, you know, a downtown basement apartment struggling to make ends meet, they have the potential of loving their dog just as much as that person with a $100,000,000 car collection. They just don't have the same wherewithal. Now, unfortunately, I can sell one dog collar to that guy. You know, how many cans of 50¢ dog food do I have to sell to the rest of the market to mirror my profit to equal my profit on that one SKU? And so again, I don't like the word demonize, and I'm not trying to demonize, but marketing in general… the arc of the marketing universe bends towards you know, more spend. It just does.

24:12

Michael Johnson

And right now, I don't know if it's a—Stephanie, you can answer the question better than I can as an actual formulator—it seems not completely possible to make a high quality, high meat, high nutrient, you know, perfectly safe, you know, food product that is extremely low priced, you know, as it is to make one that's not low priced. I mean, is that kind of fair to say? What you put into it is kind of what you get out of it?

24:42

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Hmmm… I think you can make something perfectly safe, perfectly nutritious, perfectly acceptable and great, and you don't have to break the budget. Because at the end of the day, an amino acid is an amino acid, a protein is a protein, and if it's highly digestible, it’s highly digestible. I think where we start having issues with formulators—like, as formulators or nutritionists, is you have these what we call constraints. Right? So now we have to have high meat, high quality. First off, what does even high quality mean?

25:18

Jordan Tyler

Very subjective term.

25:19

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah. Like, I mean, if you start talking high digestibility, well, an egg is highly digestible. Does that mean it's high quality? Because some most people will be like, “No, I don't want an egg in my product,” or “I don't want chicken.” But I think we start adding constraints—human grade, non-GMO, organic—or like, we start adding these adjectives to nutrition and we price it out or we make it very expensive where all of a sudden we start talking about, well, now I need an economically appropriate auction or I need a medium or a mildly premium or a middle of the row… It's like you're talking all the same nutrients at the end of the day.

26:07

Michael Johnson

So I want to ask you something here because that's very, very interesting. I don't disagree with your, you know, your marketing term stance, but let's go back to that really high-quality example you use that is affordable, and I forgot exactly what you called it, but let's go back to that. You know, a super high-quality food at the bottom shelf price. It would seem to me if we could actually do that, it would seem to me that would be a market disruptor. Nobody wants to pay more for anything than they have to. Even the person buying that $250,000 diamond collar. If they could get it for $10,000, you know they would. Right? Value is still value. Why are we not doing that then?

26:55

Dr. Stephanie Clark

So, I'm going to answer your question with question, and it was something we had talked about earlier.

27:00

Michael Johnson

My favorite kind of answer.

27:01

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I know. We use the word cheap. Right? So, like, whether or not we're cost optimizing, it all comes down to cheap or economically savvy or economically affordable. But when we start using those words, we as humans instantly start thinking we've cut corners. It's low value. It must not be as good. Like, you can pay $5 for a candy bar or you can pay $1 for a candy bar. Does that mean that candy bar is less of a candy bar?

27:32

Michael Johnson

Okay.

27:32

Dr. Stephanie Clark

But to some people, if we buy this for a dollar, it feels less than because it's “cheap.” And I'm using air quotes, everyone who can't see me with my hands.

27:44

Michael Johnson

But I think in a sense that that bubbles back around to our bubbles.

27:47

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah, yeah.

27:48

Michael Johnson

Right? This what I plan on spending here and what I think is commensurate to my income, if I spend beneath that… this can't be good. There is a there is a value structure in people's minds. You know? Here's an example. And again, I don't know how to sort this out. I don't know the answer to it, but let's say you could buy a BMW and that BMW you could buy for $15,000. You would have a whole lot of people that have never bought a BMW before, because I already know in my mind aspirationally, I want to buy a BMW. It's just, it is not a reality for me. Right? You already have a lot of people with that mindset. Once it hits $15,000, you're going to have a whole lot of people buying that car.

28:36

Michael Johnson

You're going to have other people that were buying BMWs fall out of that market because I don't want the riffraff, you know, who can afford—but you know what I mean. They can buy a $15,000 car driving the same kind of car I can because part of why I drive this car, part of why I own my house, part of why I eat what I eat, part of what I feed my dog what I feed, you know, is self-expressive. It's a self-expressive benefit. There are several benefit different benefits. There are reasons we buy things. One of them is: “What does it say about me?” You know? And so, you're going to lose a lot of people from that market, and then you're going to have a lot of people that just aren't sure if it's now $15,000, it just can't be that good.

29:17

Michael Johnson

And I think we run into that a lot in the pet food world. You know? This costs more; it has to better. And we've talked about the fact that, you know, the average American doesn't spend that much time studying pet food. And so, a really good gauge of value and a really good gauge of quality is how much does it cost? And to your point, Stephanie, what are the words I've heard, you know, that are very very aspirational words to me? “Human grade,” you know, “freeze dried.” These are all aspirational terms that as soon as I can get a dog food that has these kind of terms, I already know I want to buy it just like I already know I want to buy that BMW because these are things that I've locked in as, “This is the next level of me, this is the next level of my dog.”

30:03

Michael Johnson

But to your point, I don't know why we haven't managed to convince people—and you and I've had this conversation a lot, you know—why we can't convince people that this dog food is perfectly fine and would still enable a lot of consumers to eat themselves.

30:19

Dr. Stephanie Clark

I mean, if you want to compare a human-grade piece of meat and a non-human-grade piece of meat, but just assume the only difference is that it's not human-grade… digestibility can be the same, the risk of microbes can still be the same.

30:33

Michael Johnson

Oh, people get sick off expensive food all the time.

30:36

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah, and we get sick in fancy restaurants too. Just, it only takes one thing. And so, does that label truly make it that much better? Maybe not.

30:47

Michael Johnson

But going again back to that, you know, price shock, you know, just because we have price shock, somebody else might not. Somebody must else might have price shock in the opposite direction. “You're feeding your dog a dog food that only costs $20 a pound? Don't you love it?”

31:04

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Yeah. Don't you think that's where we're going right now with, like—sorry, real fast kind of spicy—fresh versus kibble. Right? We're seeing this uptick in fresh, and now all of a sudden, you feed your dog kibble? Do you even love it?

31:17

Michael Johnson

Fresh has the cachet of if you know, as human beings and I'm you know, I don't remember the last time I didn't eat something that was processed, so I'm going to throw that right out there. Okay? If it doesn't somehow start with processed, I don't even know how to find it. I think there's a human connotation out there that if we're cooking fresh, that's just better. If we're cooking fresh, that's more love for our family or our children or anything like that. It just has that bias built in. It really does. I mean, think about your own experience. You know? Whenever you go to somebody's house and they bake the cake, you know, are they delighted to tell you it came from a box? Because they will always tell you it was scratch baked. Right? It it's just where they go.

32:02

Michael Johnson

And so, I think from a marketing perspective and I'm not saying it's not better for you or the dog. You know? I'm not one to I'm not one to evaluate that statement, but I can evaluate that these are inherent human values that we hear that and, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? That means love. You know? Making my kid a fresh grilled cheese sandwich sounds better than opening a can of soup and putting it on the stove.

32:28

Dr. Stephanie Clark

But do you think that's a public response? Like, “I would never feed my kid fast food. But sometimes when we're running late after soccer practice, we may swing by and get fast food.” And it's like, the things that we do, and I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here—

32:45

Michael Johnson

I think it's a perfect statement. It absolutely brings it back to humanization, and that's how we are as humans. There are humans that if they again, I'll use myself as, you know, as the example here. There are humans that they if I sat down and told them what I eat…

33:00

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Me too…

33:02

Michael Johnson

…they would be so repelled. Right? I would just be anathema. I'm abhorrent. I'm just abhorrent. You know? How can you eat like that? There are people that live their lives that way. Right? And this is no different when I'm buying a pet product. There are certain things we do. There are certain things we don't do. You know? My kids and I'll, you know… I would like to say I didn't learn until my kids were grown that we shouldn't give them soda, but that's not true, and I wouldn't have cared anyway. You know? My kids grew up enjoying soda. That has gotten me so many stern looks in parent circles. I know kids that cannot have juice. You know? Water is what they have to drink because water is the only pure… you know?

33:44

Michael Johnson

I mean, so we are like that as humans, and of course, we're like that as our pets. I think you perfectly put that back together on the humanization front.

33:53

Jordan Tyler

And it also kind of, like, brings us back to, like, how much of this is really for the pet and how much of it is for the pet owner? And I would kind of argue that… it kind of starts and ends with the pet owner. Right? Because the pet, like, they can't give you feedback. They can't tell you if they like something or not except, you know, refusing to play with that toy or refusing to eat this new food. But, like, we're the ones making all the decisions, and we are the ones that are reflected through those decisions. So, like, probably a lot of this humanization is driven by, like, what we would like to reflect out as humans. Not, it's really not about pets at all.

34:30

Michael Johnson

You're right. I don't want to destroy my pet by feeding it the wrong thing. And so, there's… we did some research. This is a number of years ago, but the industry still thinks, you know, we feed our pet and we spend what our you know, spend what we can on our pet or blah blah blah because of love. And we absolutely do love our pet, but it isn't love. It's guilt. Right? There's a certain value equation at which my guilt dissipates. I no longer feel guilty at a certain price point. This is how it works. Right? Now if for some reason I know I can spend more and I'm buying a lesser quality food, I'm not going to feed that to my kids, and I'm not going to feed that to my pet because I feel bad about that.

35:09

Michael Johnson

If however it is straining my purse strings, you know, that level of quality might just be fine for what my pet has to eat. We have been well trained against definitely your point on what the key things are, what the key terms are, what I should be doing. As a human being, in pet spending and in human spending, I'm well aware of what I can and cannot afford, but I'll try to get to the level, again, where my guilt goes away, and then I'm happy there. But that's to your point, Jordan, it is completely, completely human.

35:46

Dr. Stephanie Clark

It's interesting though, and I promise I will land this plane real fast. And maybe this is just talking to all the moms out there because you mentioned guilt. And I was talking to my mom about this huge shift in feeding babies. Right? Way back when I was a baby, formula was totally fine. Like, to have people actually breastfeed their kids was like few and far between. We had other things to do in life. And now there's this huge shift where like shame on you can't provide for your baby, and like moms and society is guilting other moms if they can't do something because their body just can't produce it. And it's like, you know, well, you're missing out on X Y and Z, or there's, you know, all these things that milk provides that formula does it.

36:35

Dr. Stephanie Clark

And at the end of the day, like, aren't we just glad the baby is being fed and taken care of and loved? But then also, I mean, even in baby formula, there's still a wide range of, like, super-premium, like, holy cow, you're putting everything and then some into this formula, like, cost wise, to white-label store, grocery store brand. It's like, great successful people are all over the board. They've been formula fed. They've been breast fed. They've been fancy formula fed. They've been soy formula—like, I wonder if we took that approach to our pets, though. Not that our pets are going to become leaders. Maybe they will. Maybe we'll have some help for us and if our pets lead.

37:24

Dr. Stephanie Clark

But it's the same thing! It's that new guilt of, like, “Oh, like…” When I told people, like, what I fed my daughters, like, instant guilt because the judgment was, like… you could cut it with a knife. It was so sick.

37:39

Michael Johnson

That is that is also I'm going to call I'm not going to call that humanization. I'm going to call that human. Right? But we are. We're that way in general. And I'm not trying to denigrate anybody. If you think about your own life, you know your own life, you know where you're right. Right? Some people are comfortable taking that a step further and telling other people where they know they're right. Not everybody does that. And this is probably a topic—but I think it's a great point—I think this is a topic for another episode, but I think one of the things that has really exacerbated this over the last handful of years is social media. You know? I may not have known how other people were feeding their pets.

38:22

Michael Johnson

I may not have known what other people were doing with their pets, but now they're putting it out there. And if I'm somebody who really feels like I have this dialed in and you don't, you know, the anonymity, for lack of a better word, of social media has made me completely comfortable in telling you all the places you are failing your pet. And that's, you know, that not only drives aspirational values because now I look at somebody that has that $250,000 collar, but it also gives me the ability, Steph, to your point, to gloat over somebody that's only feeding this product. You know? “How dare you?” Right? “That poor dog never did anything to you, and that's how you're feeding it?” So, I think that's another episode.

39:04

Dr. Stephanie Clark

“How dare you give them this crunchy treat?”

39:07

Michael Johnson

Yeah. “How dare you give them the basic, you know, essentials they need to live?”

39:13

Dr. Stephanie Clark

“And you let them in your house. Come on now.”

39:16

Michael Johnson

Exactly! But you've seen it. It's… again, it is being human. So, do we did we answer the question? I mean, I think there is a very valid case to be made for luxury. I agree with you guys at least where were starting to go. Even myself, it's hard to do without some kind of moral judgment because it is just so far out of my own experience base. How could you blow that on this? Aren't people starving? I mean, I think one of you said that. Right? But, again, I don't know that, again, they're not curing… they're not ending hunger in some other country. You know? I just happened to have $250,000 kicking around in my pocket, and I saw this collar and I thought, “Eh, let's give the dog a treat.”

40:00

Dr. Stephanie Clark

“Why not?”

40:01

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. I think, you know, as much as we could judge and as much as this could be a litmus test or, you know, “We shouldn't be doing this for our pets,” it really is to each their own. And I think the whole point of this really is to kind of highlight where we've gone as an industry, right? We went from kibble being the thing that everybody fed all the time. Well, really went from table scraps to kibble. And now we're kind of entering this movement where, you know, everything's supposed to better for pets. But with better comes a heftier price tag. And I—

40:44

Michael Johnson

Because it can.

40:45

Jordan Tyler

Because it can.

40:46

Michael Johnson

To Stephanie's point, it does sounds like it doesn't have to, but it can.

40:50

Jordan Tyler

Yeah. And I think that's what, like, the industry has learned this. Right? Like, the people that are playing in this industry are really savvy, and they understand they can make a significant profit on what they're selling just by kicking the price up a little bit and expanding that margin. I think that the reason why we wanted to talk about it mainly is, sure—you know, whatever if you want to buy a quarter-of-a-million-dollar dog collar for your dog, you do that! Who am I to judge? What I'm worried about is when this becomes, like, less of the exception. And the pet industry continues to trend upward while income inequality continues to widen and while the economic confidence continues to fall. It just seems to be a perfect storm of all these factors converging and it seems like the people that have been able to afford these luxury products, they're going to be fine. But what about the people that are relying on, you know, the Great Value kibble brand?

41:51

Michael Johnson

Again, the three of us have discussed the point that, you know, there was a recent PNC Bank study that said 67% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. That's a big number. And we've also talked about the recent Moody's study that said the top 10% are doing 50% of spending right now. You know? I don't know where this nets out.

42:12

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Well, and I think it's important to, like, circle up for pet owners that format of pet food, right? Kibble, canned, air dried, freeze dried, fresh, whatever you want to call it. But I think we have to be careful with demonizing one or maybe canceling kibble or canceling—like, it's great that we're doing research on this stuff. It's great that better options are coming or potentially better options or maybe just a different value sense or marketing to a different pet owner. But at the same time, and what Jordan's getting at too, is like, we do have to be very careful because if we keep bashing kibble, what is going to happen to that population that is surviving and thriving and relying on kibble? And it could be whatever format. Right? I'm just calling kibble.

43:05

Michael Johnson

It's a really good question. I think from both of you. I mean, I'm not saying this is a logical extrapolation of where that goes. You know? And, again, I don't like the word demonize, but if we continue to marginalize, you know, kibble… What has fueled the growth in our industry is people keep owning pets. You know? The majority of pet owners can't keep buying, they can't keep going up the ladder. They just can't. The people we've talked about, they can continue to do that. But unless they start owning millions of dogs, you know, that part of the market, you know, is—and I'm not going to say it's at risk, but—it's certainly an area that we would look at for, you know, a little bit of nervousness.

43:49

Michael Johnson

What happened if somewhere along the lines people started to become less and less likely to own a pet due to the fact that they just can't feel, due to marketing, that they could do the right thing for that animal? Again, I'm not saying that's a logical conclusion to this, but it's something to throw out there. There have to be people out there that said, “I just can't afford to own a pet in the right way.”

44:11

Dr. Stephanie Clark

To say that would never happen, I think is… we would have to stick our head in the sand because that's what's happening with kids. Right? Like, we either don't like the political landscape or we can't afford daycare because Lord knows... Like, I mean, and that's a justification, like, when people are like, “Oh, are you going to have a third?” I go, “If I told you what I paid in daycare, there's, I mean… Economically, I cannot afford another child.” But I mean, yeah, we're going to get to that point with pets. It's just a matter of time. Now, whether it happens in the next five years, ten years, fifty years. But, yeah, I mean, if we keep isolating things because we think they're bad or because more expensive is better…

44:57

Michael Johnson

I have that date down as next June, but we'll see if that's right.

45:03

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Jordan, any bets? I'm just kidding.

45:07

Jordan Tyler

Ohhh… In this economy, I ain’t betting.

45:10

Dr. Stephanie Clark

Well, there you have it. We went from quarter-million-dollar dog collars to the question that really matters. Where's the line between loving your pet and pricing everyone else out of the game?

45:22

Jordan Tyler

So if you want to drop $250,000 on a diamond studded collar for your dog—and honestly, we kind of hope that you do so that you come back and tell us what that experience was like—hey, that's your thing. Own it. The point is we all live in our own economic bubbles, and each one has its own limitations for what's expensive and what's cheap. But here is what we kept coming back to. The pet industry has figured this out. They know they can charge more, and you can bet your bottom dollar that trend will continue.

45:54

Dr. Stephanie Clark

The humanization of pets is real. Our dogs have become our kids, our family members, our emotional anchors. And yeah, that means we're going to spend money on them. But we have to ask ourselves: What happens when better automatically becomes more expensive? What happens to people feeding their dog Great Value brands because that's what they can afford? Are we pricing them out? Are we making them feel guilty? And are we eventually going to shame people out of pet ownership altogether?

46:28

Jordan Tyler

Michael's perspective is a sticking point. We all make decisions driven by guilt, not necessarily always by what is best for our animals. And Dr. Steph reminded us that nutrients are nutrients, regardless of the price tag or how fancy the label looks. There's a lot of room between the bargain aisle and the luxury boutique for perfectly healthy, perfectly nutritious pet food that doesn't require a second mortgage.

46:54

Dr. Stephanie Clark

But the real takeaway: We have a responsibility as an industry and as pet owners to keep options open for everyone. Because honestly, a dog doesn't care if its collar costs $5 or $250,000. Really, does it even care that it’s wearing a collar? It just wants to be loved.

47:14

Jordan Tyler

So, we want to hear from you. Where do you fall in all of this? Are you team luxury pet brand or team great value? Do you feel pressured by what you see on social media about how you, quote, unquote, should be feeding your pet? And have you ever decided not to get a pet because you were worried you couldn't afford to do it right?

47:34

Dr. Stephanie Clark

You know what to do! Give us a follow on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and let us know what you think. And you better believe it. We read every single message, and this conversation is far from over. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barking Mad. If you want to learn more about BSM Partners, please visit us at www.bsmpartners.net. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform or share it with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations.

48:09

Jordan Tyler

We’d also like to thank our dedicated team, Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf, and Dr. Katy Miller. A special shout out to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of this episode, and to David Perez for our original music in the intro and outro. See you next time!

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