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In this episode, we meet Duncan McIntyre, the CEO of Highland Electric Fleets, Inc., the electric school bus company. He saw an opportunity to provide a managed solution for large fleets lacking the expertise to adopt this new technology. He envisioned electric buses as a way to improve air quality, reduce pediatric asthma, integrate renewable energy into the grid, and serve multiple purposes. Duncan's disruptive approach includes a subscription model based on total acquisition cost, offering a comprehensive and affordable solution for schools and local authorities to transition to electric buses.

Creating a cohesive culture at Highland involves aligning diverse perspectives and values toward a shared mission. Duncan acknowledges that people from different industries bring their own cultural norms, but he emphasizes the importance of customer-centricity as a core value across all teams. Innovation is another key aspect of the culture, encouraging employees to think outside the box, challenge the status quo, and continuously iterate and improve. Highland operates with agility, adapting to the rapidly changing market by setting shorter-term plans and remaining open to new ideas. 

Join us in this episode as Duncan explains how a supportive-coaching leadership style, and resilience resonates with him among the 21 traits of authentic leadership. His advice for leaders in the auto industry today is twofold. First, he suggests carving out a larger R&D budget and encouraging teams to spend time tinkering and iterating. This fosters a culture of innovation and creativity throughout the organization. Second, he emphasizes the importance of senior leadership adopting an entrepreneurial mindset and seeking training to foster innovation. While process and metrics are crucial for delivering reliable vehicles, leaders should also prioritize coaching and training that allows for the introduction of new ideas.

Themes discussed in this episode:

• A Mission-vision driven leadership
• Building a culture of innovation
• Learning the value of electric vehicle
• Cultivating a high-performance team
• Applying different leadership styles
• Leadership and organizational culture

Featured Guest: Duncan McIntyre

What he does: Duncan is the CEO of Highland Electric Fleets, Inc. Highland stands at the forefront of revolutionizing student transportation by embracing electric vehicles. They possess the necessary resources to assist communities in transitioning to a modern fleet without straining their current budgets.

On leadership: “You have to focus on key milestones, you can't do everything. You have to get to sort of a minimally viable proof point, in order to go, you know, candidly raise money, so that you can then further invest in people, systems, processes, customers, projects, all the pieces that any business needs to focus on.”

Episode Highlights:

[03:09] The big fleets: As Duncan became obsessed with EV, he realized that big fleets face challenges in adopting new technology due to lack of expertise and high costs. A managed solution provider can stitch together financing, monetize tax credits, and deliver services to ensure reliable and affordable fleet operation.

[4:54] Disrupting the Auto Industry: Duncan, with a background in renewable energy and a mission-driven mindset, approached the transportation industry from a different angle, recognizing electric vehicles as a solution for pediatric asthma and the need to improve air quality, integrate renewable energy, and provide multiple functionalities such as transporting students, supporting the grid, and aiding in disaster relief, driven by his personal experience of wanting cleaner air for his own children and observing the harmful effects of diesel buses on children's health and the environment.

[15:07] Customer-centric culture at Highland: Duncan praised their outstanding team. Their company fosters a customer-centric culture where every team, from finance to operations, is focused on providing a fantastic customer experience. They prioritize innovation and encourage out-of-the-box thinking, supported by a healthy R&D budget. Adapting quickly to market changes, they operate on a six-month plan. Their team is passionate, mission-driven, and dedicated to the customers and product.

[17:17] Permission for innovation: Creating a shared vision and mission is essential for a united workforce. By spending time with each new employee, aligning them with the goal of providing affordable, clean transportation to underserved communities, and fostering a culture of innovation, they empower individuals from diverse backgrounds to embrace entrepreneurship and think differently within the organization.

[22:09] 21 Traits of Authentic Leadership: Among the 21 traits, Duncan resonates the most with supportive-coaching leadership style and resilience.

[38:04] Advice for auto industry leaders: Duncan gave two suggestions for fostering innovation and staying relevant as a leader in the automotive industry. First is to prioritize R&D and encourage a culture of continuous tinkering and iteration across the organization, while also promoting entrepreneurial thinking and providing training for senior leadership to embrace innovation alongside reliable processes and metrics.

Top Quotes:

[18:11] Duncan: “We've really brought a lot of different perspectives and backgrounds. But universally, on average, people are coming from bigger organizations. And so they need to be encouraged and inspired to be really entrepreneurial. We screen for it, and we hire for it. So, it's not like they aren't willing, they have to be inspired and know that they have permission to do things a little differently.”

[26:44] Jan: “Authentic Leadership is about really nurturing that relationship, connecting with a human being. And every human being is different, can't use the same approach with everybody to inspire them from within. And that is a coaching role. It's very, very different to this idea of command and control, being the boss and just telling everybody what to do.”

[30:01] Duncan: “That's one of the biggest reasons why businesses fail, it may not be the product or the idea, it's just getting from zero to one is really, really hard. And so I just think, being willing to not give up, staying with it, and insisting on succeeding, it's a mentality more than anything. And then you have to be able to set up the rest of your life in a way that you can just grind through it. Because if you can't do that, it becomes really hard.”

[39:49] Duncan: “I'd offer one more thought, which is senior leadership, because it always comes down to leadership needs to spend more time thinking like the way you do about the traits for success, and they need to think more about entrepreneur entrepreneurial spirit. And they need to think more about getting some training to sort of be brought into this world of innovation.”

[Trancript]

Welcome to the automotive leaders podcast, where we help you prepare for the future by sharing stories, insights, and skills from leading voices in the automotive world with a mission to transform this industry together. I'm your host, Jan Griffiths, that passionate, rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales, with over 35 years of experience in our beloved auto industry, and a commitment to empowering fellow leaders to be their best authentic selves. Stay true to yourself, be you, and lead with Gravitas, the hallmark of authentic leadership. Let's dive in.

Today, you'll meet Duncan McIntyre. Duncan is the CEO of Highland, the electric school bus company. Yes, it's happening. The days of those diesel-powered exhaust-spewing school buses might be coming to an end and you're gonna hear how and why that's going to happen. Duncan, yes, of course, he's an authentic leader. But he's also a disruptor. He is disrupting the way that we look at owning and operating school buses. And we're gonna get right into that. But we're also going to understand how this man, a man who has never worked a day in the transportation industry or manufacturing, and certainly has never made a bus ever in his life, how he is making this happen, and it is happening, they are experiencing tremendous success. So, let's get inside the mind of Duncan McIntyre, the CEO of Highland, the electric school bus company. Duncan, welcome to the show.

Jan, Thanks for having me. Good morning.

Duncan, you are the CEO of Highland Electric, the electric bus company.

I am Yes.

With a name like Duncan McIntyre. And a company name like Highland Electric. There's some Scottish influence in there, I'm thinking.

There's some Scottish influence. My business plan had no company name on it before my first big meeting with investors. And my wife said you can't show up without a business name. And at about midnight, she named the company because she's always joked that I'm a Highlander. So that's it.

And you are, but there's got to be some Scottish heritage in there somewhere. Right?

It's all Scottish.

So, let's talk about your mission for this company. I want to know how you got started this idea of an electric school bus possessed you. How on earth did you wake up one day and go? Yeah, I'm going to spend my life making electric school buses. Tell us about that process, Duncan, and take us back to the beginning. You know, what brought you to that place?

Well, 13 years ago, I started a company in the renewable energy space called Alton X. And it was very much a business model innovation. It was a time in the market when wind turbines and solar panels were pretty darn good if a tech was there, but the market wasn't growing quickly. And the markets lacked innovative business models to scale the technology. That was a successful business. We sold it to Edison International, and I spent time in California in Southern California, reporting to our new owners, and I became obsessed with electric vehicles. It just seemed to me like an upgrade all around the tech is better. They're more efficient fuels, cheaper, and less maintenance. And for me, it seemed like an obvious replacement for traditional combustion vehicles are really across almost all categories. But when I dove deeper, it became clear that big fleets specifically lacked the technology know-how they weren't well set up to take on a bunch of new technology risk. And the equipment's really expensive. And so, to me, it seems ripe for a managed solution. It's someone to stitch together the financing, monetize the tax credits, take on the risks, and then deliver a bundle of services that promise to keep the fleets running smoothly. So, reliability and affordability is really what we aim to provide.

You know, what I found really fascinating is that you're coming at transportation the field of transportation, you're coming at it with a business in an energy mindset and background. You've never worked a day in your life in traditional automotive, or manufacturing, correct?

Correct.

That's what I love about the disruption that we're seeing in the automotive industry right now, is we've got people who are coming in, at your level, starting businesses, successful businesses, totally disrupting the industry. But you're coming from a very different place, you're very much mission driven. You're not a bus manufacturer who now wants to switch to EV, you know, it's coming at it from a totally different angle. Have you ever thought about that perspective?

I don't know if I've thought about it that specifically. But when I saw electric vehicles, I saw a big battery on wheels. And then I saw a solution to pediatric asthma. And I use that as a, you know, example for the need to improve air quality in cities all over the world. But when you can piece together, the demand for cleaner air, the needs of our broader energy system, but specifically our electric grid, you can very quickly see a vehicle like a bus, as having many purposes, it can move students around in the morning in the afternoon, it can help integrate renewable energy into the grid in the middle of the day, and it can provide power back to the grid in the evening. And if you can get it to support, disaster relief, and other things, you have even more uses for the vehicles. And so I saw that as a way to provide cleaner air to all in an affordable way.

When you think about a school bus, you see these big, massive, clunky diesels spewing all the stuff that comes out of the exhaust. It's not good. But and then you think, we got all these little kids. Right in the middle of it. Was there another reason that you were focused on pediatric asthma? I mean, was there anything more personal? Or would you say something that you really cared about?

Well, I think the personal piece is I've got three small kids, and my son and my two daughters, they're 11, 10, and seven now. When I started the business, they were quite a bit younger, but we live in the country. So, we we've made that decision to live in an area that is full of clean air, but traveling for work and traveling globally for work, I have seen lots of kids live in different environments than the country of Massachusetts. And so, it to me, it seemed very much like a worthy challenge and a worthy, worthy thing to tackle. So that was the personal piece of it. But I also noticed specifically that a second grader’s mouth is at about the same height as the tailpipe on a diesel bus. And so, when the kids are lined up at school pickup, they're just standing right there by an idling bus. And I don't want to disparage the diesel industry, because they've delivered reliable vehicles to our communities for a long, long time. But I think there's a better option. Now it's an upgrade, and it's worthy of people's attention.

Now, that is certainly a mission driven business. Now, staying with the theme of disruption, you have totally disrupted the traditional model of buying a bus, buying a school bus. And you are looking at it from a total acquisition cost model approach. So, when a school or a local authority is looking at buying a bus, tell us you know, what sparked this, this idea of really more of a subscription model? Could you tell us more about that?

I'm happy too, if you think about what schools have done for decades, they've traditionally bought new buses with a capital budget. And then they've hired people to operate them. When you think of electric, one of the problems is the upfront purchase price is two to three times that of a diesel. So even the wealthy districts just don't have the budgets, they don't have the budgets to increase spending on buses. The value of an electric is that it operates much cheaper, much, much cheaper, the fuels cheaper. The repairs are, you know, there are far fewer moving parts, so there's just less to repair. And there's a promise that the vehicles will last longer because the engines are very simple. The issue is that very few schools are willing to take that bet today. The bet is we pay more now, and we earn it back in operational savings and to compound the issue, there are now tax credits available, which is great. But schools don't pay taxes. And gaining access to the full value of tax credits is better suited to private enterprises that can structure and manage tax credit finance. And so, piecing those pieces together is daunting. Even for big school districts. They're looking at hiring a new staff of people to specialize in integrating the software between the charging stations and the buses and designing and building an electrified depot, all daunting tasks. And so, for us, it seemed like it was not enough just to provide an electrified depot, or just to provide vehicle finance, in order to really drive the market, we had to deliver a complete solution. And so, what we tell customers is, when they sign up with us, they get a fully fueled electric school bus every day at 5am. And they pay us $3 A mile, or whatever the price might be. And if it doesn't work, we don't get paid. So, it's very much a risk transfer to the schools, we need to keep the vehicles and the equipment running smoothly. And then it's, it's our obligation to monetize the tax credits and bet on the savings. And the school gets something very simple.

I love that you've taken a look at this model in truly in a macro sense. You're not looking at it as a vehicle as a bus, you're looking at it as providing the total solution, the total service to the consumer. And I have to believe that charging infrastructure, which you know, I hear, I just came back from Wales and a big issue, there is charging infrastructure, because you're lucky if you find a gas station in some of the remote places in Wales, let alone a charging station, right. But for a bus, if you think about a bus, it lives within a zone within the school zone. And it's just doing a lot of these little, small loops, right constantly. So, I got to believe that charging infrastructure is not such a huge issue for you, is that right?

It's not. You have to design it in the right way. And then you have to manage it and support it in the right ways. And so, you have to have all those components for them to be reliable. But you're correct, Jan, the fleet's that exists. And this is everything from logistics to last mile delivery to garbage trucks and school buses, there are tons of fleets where the vehicles come back to the same depot, essentially every night. And it's a logical place to electrify a site, provide services and equipment, and then support it in the right way. And then those vehicles just go out every morning, they come back every evening, drivers get a little bit of training, mechanics get a little bit of training, and the fleets run really smoothly.

I love where you're going with this, it is clear that you are a mission driven leader. You have a vision; you have a business. Now let's talk about your leadership. Those are some of the key ingredients that quite frankly, we see missing, sometimes in traditional auto because we just go from one tier one or one OEM to another right? So you've got those pieces you can clearly articulate this vision of what this company is all about. Now, you start the company, you have to scale this company and you have to get other people on board with your vision. How Duncan McIntyre do you do that?

I think the business, as all businesses are there, they're quite tender in the first couple of years, you have to focus on key milestones, you can't do everything. You have to get to sort of a minimally viable proof point, in order to go, you know, candidly raise money, so that you can then further invest in people, systems, processes, customers, projects, all the pieces that any business needs to focus on. I started Highland by writing a check into a new company bank account. And I spent the first six months by myself, really just trying to sell a thesis of concept to a city here in Massachusetts, Beverly, Massachusetts. And then I began hiring a couple of people. But I did not come from transportation or automotive. And so, I've had to surround myself with people who do come from transportation. That was one of the first things I did. But ultimately, I'm a big believer that you have to be really crisp on your milestones, and then really focus on getting to them so that you can get to the next inflection point, and then create new milestones, new KPIs and new goals. And so, you know, Highland has had a number of step changes in that environment. But that's essentially the way I've done it.

How would you describe the culture at Highland?

We have a fantastic team. We have been lucky that we've been able to really encourage a number of people from lots of different industries to join the business. We are customer centric. And I've tried to make that part of the core of who we are, everyone from the finance team to the fleet operations team is customer centric. And so, we like to say we'll jump out of a window for our customers to make their experience fantastic. And then, you know, another key piece that is important to me, is being really innovative, and being able to innovate really quickly. And I think that's maybe one of the missing pieces in automotive today in general. But I encourage our team to stick to the goals that they've been asked to deliver but carve out time and be willing to think outside of the box, be willing to raise your hand and say, I don't think this is right, let's try something different. And then we have a healthy r&d budget. We're iterating and tinkering constantly with new concepts. Because the markets changing quickly, we don't have an annual plan, we have a six-month plan, because things change in six months, and you need a new plan every six months. So those are some of the themes. But I would also just say, work hard play hard, a great group of people, everyone is mission driven in their own way. And they all have their own story as to why they want to be here. But universally, everyone loves the product that loves our customers and loves what we do.

I could see that because everybody, most people have children, okay, and relate can relate to that. Right? You said that you've got people coming in from different industries, each industry has their own cultural norms. So, you've got this group of people coming together, they've probably all got an idea of what they think the culture should or shouldn't be. They're all coming with the different maybe values set from their cultural norms. But how do you make sure that it all comes together to form the Highland culture that you believe in.

People need to be united by a common vision and mission for the company. And I spend time with every new employee, we have lunch, we spend an hour together, and we go through the building blocks of who we are, you know, we exist to provide affordable, clean transportation for all, not just for wealthy communities that can afford it, but specifically for the communities that need it the most. Getting everyone aligned on a mission and a vision is key. And then getting everyone aligned on the core components of being willing to innovate. We have people who've come from, from political offices working for a senator or member of Congress. We have people coming from automotive, from transportation, people coming from dealerships, people coming from the big manufacturing companies. So, we've we've really brought a lot of different perspectives and backgrounds. But universally, on average, people are coming from bigger organizations. And so, they need to be encouraged and inspired to be really entrepreneurial. And we you know, we screen for it, and we hire for it. So, it's not like they aren't willing, they have to be inspired and know that they have permission to do things a little differently.

Now, that's a powerful statement that you just said, after knowing that they have permission to do things a little differently. And we know that psychological safety is the number one factor of a high-performance team. How do you generate that? How do you nurture that? How do you make sure that they know that they feel that every day? And also knowing going back to your comment about milestones, there are milestones every business has to deliver, we know that and there's this a balance there, right? So, you Yes, there are there are goals. But yes, you want to create a safe space, and you want innovation to happen. What are your thoughts? Or what advice would you give to leaders out there who are dealing with this?

I think it's really hard. What you just described is very difficult. There's no silver bullet, but it is true when people are, are feeling safe in the workplace. They're going to deliver better, higher quality, they're going to be more passionate about contributing above and beyond. A couple of thoughts, I am a big believer in showing people that everyone in the org is not above a task. You know, I'm the CEO, and I spend most of my time on strategy and leading the people who report directly to me, but I do really enjoy getting my Carhartt boots on and getting out into a bus depot at 6:30 in the morning and engaging with a dispatcher and helping out where I can. And I use that as a as a little bit of a metaphor for being willing to parachute in and support any, any level of the organization. And it creates a mentality where, yes, there's hierarchy, people have direct reports, and there's a full org chart. But there's also flatness in the sense that everyone should be willing to do just about everything if they're called on. So, I hired a Chief Commercial Officer, just four or five months ago, his name is Brian, and he came from a company called Bird. And they're in the Micro mobility, sort of City Scooter business. And one of the things I really love about Brian, which I still do, is he's got some grit, he's got the experience, and he's got the leadership. But he's not above, putting on oil stain cards and going to a bus depot at 6:30 in the morning. And so, I think that's a dynamic I've tried to encourage, but also lead by example, not tell people to do it, but just show people that if I'm willing to do it, they should be willing to do it.

And I think you have to be careful with that as a leader. I agree with you. And I think it can be extremely motivating for people, when they see the CEO, go into the bus depot, jumping right in there, right, not afraid to get his or her hands dirty. It's how you do it. I've also seen people that would do the exact same thing, but their team would feel like they were in there to check up on them. And that they were in there to micromanage them. Your heart has to be in the right place, you've got to come at it with all sincerity, and yes, authenticity. So, people can see through it and don't think that you're going to go in there. In your head, you're thinking oh, yeah, I'm gonna go check up on them. But I'm gonna make them think that I'm just in there to help them. People see right through that. And I think that that's a problem sometimes.

I agree. I was reading through your 21 traits for authentic leadership. And I was, by the way, very tough to pick one. But I think one of the two that really jumped out at me would be supportive coaching leadership style, that that, to me is absolutely critical. To me, it is absolutely essential to scale an org, you have to, the people who work for me need to know that I trust them. And they need to know that I'm going to weigh in and provide my opinion and ultimately make some decisions from time to time. But most of the time, I'm going to defer to them because they're the experts in their field. And you know, I trust them. And that's true.

There it is trust, trust. But people sometimes screw up. They make mistakes. I honestly believe that people don't come to work intentionally to fail to mess things up. They fail because they didn't have the skill set. They weren't clear on the task. It usually comes back to leadership or culture.

It always comes back to leadership and culture.

Right? I mean, people just don't come to work going, oh, yeah, I'm gonna screw everything up today that I possibly can nobody does that. Right. Okay, maybe there's a very small percentage, but the most people, they don't do that.

I think that's right.

How do you employ this more of a coaching style? And the reason I asked this question is I just had a conversation with a client last week, and they are very task driven, right, and this guy is very much. But I told him what I needed. And when I needed it, and I don't understand why it didn't happen. Well, now I'm trying to coach them on adopting more of a coaching leadership style. But I also explained to him that it's going to take longer for you to do that. But it's going to be more effective, and it's going to sustain, and it will gain traction. And it will all be better, you know, in the future. But that's a hard message to get across to somebody. Right?

It is. I think, sometimes with a very short amount of time, you can have a conversation. And you can ask some questions, you ask questions, and then provide your thoughts on the answer to those questions. And what that can do is it can steer the direction of the exercise, not in a big way, but steer it in one way or in another way. And then my sense is that that person who failed to deliver in your example, has a little bit more confidence because there's a direction the understands that maybe they're empowered to succeed now because they have alignment with their boss on the direction of the exercise, and they can spend less time trying to create the direction and more time actually driving in into the details of the solution. And so that's definitely a tactic I would use is ask some questions. And it could be a five minute conversation but provide an opinion as part of that that debate.

Yeah, it's step one of accountability, of positive accountability is clarity. It is driving for clarity. And as a leader, we sometimes we think we've communicated and it's perfectly clear in your head, right, and the other person has got three different ways of interpreting the task. But creating that safe environment where the person can come back to you and say, okay, it reminds me of marriage guidance counseling, that I went two years ago, right. It's like, okay, repeat back what you've just heard, what did your you know, your husband says to you? You know, how did you how did you feel about that? And how did you hear it? But is it along those same lines? You have to you have to validate for clarity? Would you agree?

Yes, yes, you do. Yeah. You make me think of conversations I have with my seven-year-old. I'll tell her she needs to put her sunblock on in the morning, or she can't go outside, but it doesn't get through. But if there's a if there's a twist to the conversation, and you can inspire her to put the sunblock on, it's just gonna happen.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And as leaders is, so often, particularly with command and control, which we're known for in automotive, it's very much the hierarchical type of I'm the boss, I'm going to tell you what to do, shut up and do it. And if you don't do it, I'm going to rate you, knock you down, and eventually fire your simplistic way of saying it. But authentic leadership is about really nurturing that relationship, connecting with a human being. And every human being is different, can't use the same approach with everybody to inspire them from within. And that is a coaching role. It's very, very different to this idea of command and control, being the boss and just telling everybody what to do.

I totally agree. And I think automotive probably needs to rethink these dynamics in general, because I don't think it works in the workplace these days, too, you know, have that super strict mentality, I think you lose talent. If you want to retain talent, you have to think about, you know, adopting some different leadership styles.

How did you become such a strong, authentic leader? Where did your leadership, thoughts and philosophies come from? Is it always just who you are, and you're very comfortable in your own skin? Were their mentors out, were there other examples that you saw in other companies. Tell us about how you became such a strong, authentic leader?

Yeah, a little bit of all of the above, I think I've always been comfortable in my own skin. I had a chance to work for a guy named Bob Metcalfe for a number of years. And he started 3com. He's a sort of a Silicon Valley tycoon who got into clean tech. And I worked for him. And he gave me a lot of rope. And he would ask questions and inspire me to think about things I was missing. But he gave me a lot of rope. And I think it was one lesson in, find smart people, coach them, but then don't micromanage them. Give them a lot of rope, encourage them to, to think creatively and let them succeed. But I also, I think, there was not one single thing. My sense is, I'm 41 years old. My sense is I've just learned a little bit here and there throughout the last, you know, 20 years, and you end up becoming a function of all your experiences.

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Now, being comfortable in your own skin being an authentic leader. I just said just recently that I finally after all these years, I finally feel like I'm just there now, honestly. I shaved my hair and got a tattoo. Come on, I'm exactly where I need to be in life right now. And it feels great. And I wish I want to impart that to my daughter, right? I want her to feel that way. I want everybody to feel that way. I want everybody to feel that they can lead from a truly, truly authentic place. But there's a lot of fear out there. There's a lot of fear of failure.

Fear of failure is very real, I think my second of your 21 traits, which is resilience. So, we ran out of money seven times in the first two years of building this business, and you have to just piece it together. And for some people, that's daunting. But if you can grow some really thick skin and be willing to just not give up. You can usually work through it. And I think most businesses fail because they run out of money and the leaders just need to get a job. That's one of the biggest reasons why businesses fail, it may not be the product or the idea, it's just getting from zero to one is really, really hard. And so being willing to not give up staying with it, and insisting on succeeding, it's a mentality more than anything. And then you have to be able to set up the rest of your life in a way that you can just grind through it. Because if you can't do that, it becomes really hard.

I can totally relate to what you're saying, yes, yes, I know, the grind. I know the feeling. And I've had many times where I've thought, oh, just get a bloody job. And just get the paycheck, you know, to heck with all this mission driven stuff, right? You just know deep down in your heart that this mission is driving you and it's pulling you.

It's worth it.

Yes. And it's pulling you towards it. It's very different from looking at your career and going from job to job. And going from direct manager to director to VP to C suite. It's different. I know that being pulled by a vision and a mission is very, very different. But I agree with you, I want to stay on the on the fear side, because something that's on my mind talking to you is this. I love your background. It's a business background, it's an energy background, you're mission driven. But Duncan, wouldn't you be just a little bit scared that you're launching a bus company, and you've never built a bus in your life?

I wasn't scared, I was launching a bus company. You know, to me, it looked like a big market that hadn't had much innovation for 30 years. It's not that the products were bad, they're not bad, they're, there's an opportunity to have a real technology shift here. And to me, the manufacturers would continue to do a good job of delivering a great product. But what was completely missing was risk capital willing to integrate the various pieces that are needed to roll these fleets out and scale. Someone had to have confidence that the battery was going to work, someone had to have the confidence that they could design and build electrified depots and then operate them in a way that allowed drivers just to get in the seats in the morning. And I could see that each of those pieces was out there in the market. But nobody was integrating them in an elegant solution. And so, there's always a little bit of fear in starting a business. It's a leap of faith, especially when you're writing a check and starting to spend real money and you're committing to spend at least a couple years running at it. But I could see the need. And so for me, it was less about a question of whether the need was there and whether the market was there, and more a question around operationalizing the strategy in an elegant enough way and just make it work.

And it did. You did.

We did. We're building a great business. We got almost 100 People are in 17 states. We're in Canada, and we are the finance engine that's driving the electric school bus movement. So, we're very proud of those things we've accomplished. But there's a lot more to do.

How many of these buses are on the road right now?

We've got a little over 500 under contract.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Now we're adding 50 to 100 every month. And so, the fleets are growing quickly.

That's exciting. So, it's happening.

It's happening.

Yeah, it's really happening. Let's talk a little bit about your trip to Washington.

Which one?

Oh, okay. Yeah. You caught me. Yes, That's good. That's good.

We've spent, we've spent a bunch of time in Washington. And we've been very fortunate that the leaders down there who are creating policy around electrification, have embraced the partnering with industry to understand what's viable, how to structure these types of incentives and programs, how to think about tax, and we're the largest owner of electric school buses today. And so, we've been able to sort of have a seat at that table. But ultimately, you know, every everyone from the White House to the key committees, and then everyone from the EPA to you know, all the other departments are eager to learn from what's out there so that they can figure out what works, what doesn't work, and how to make the best policies to drive scale. And so, we've been grateful to have a seat at the table.

And you were there for the signing of the Inflation Reduction Act, right.

I was yeah, there were a few of us down there. It ended up being a pretty big group. But yes, we were there.

What was that? Like? I mean, networking with like-minded people there, mission driven businesses, I would think.

It was a celebration. There's a lot of people who have been in this world of clean tech energy transition, clean transportation for a decade. And there's been very little to sort of celebrate of that scale and magnitude. So, it was very much a celebration.

That's great. All right, now it's time for the fun stuff. You ready? We're gonna take a turn. We're gonna take a turn. Let's go to the personal side of Duncan McIntyre. All right, favorite band.

Favorite band. Probably, Grateful Dead.

Favorite show to binge watch.

Jack Ryan.

Oh, yeah, I kind of like that. I just started getting into that recently. Yes.

The books are fantastic. But they did a really good job.

Something you were really good at as a kid, that you liked doing as a kid.

Sailing?

Sailing?

Yes.

Oh, now where did you grow up? What state did you grow up here in the US?

I grew up here. We spent a lot of time in Maine as kids. And as a family. My father liked to go sailing. And so, I learned to, you know, mess around and little robots and dinghies and little sailboats as a kid, and some of my best memories are being on the water and a little, a little boat that's leaking and trying to just figure it all out.

Oh, that's lovely. Do you sail now? Do you get an opportunity to do it?

A little bit. I tried to get out with my kids, but not as much as I'd like.

What new thing? Did you learn? Or did you do or discover about yourself during lockdown?

I discovered that I really love food and cooking. And I discovered as a as a piece of that, that I really love gardening. And so, we set up, you know, an organic garden in the sort of the side yard. It got me really interested in, in farming and gardening. And, you know, I think the way we grow crops and deliver them to deliver food to communities is very much gone from distributed and local to, you know, mass production and scale and relies heavily on supply chains. And if you remember those moments during COVID, in the lockdown when there wasn't much food in the grocery stores, or you couldn't get all the things you wanted. It was, to me, a wakeup call that this isn't going to just go back to the way it was. I think there's a huge need for more local farming, more organic farming more sort of local food production. And it's going to it's going to become an issue again, in you know, the next decade of that I'm, I feel quite sure.

And to close this out today, Duncan, tell me, what advice would you have, as you well know, my audiences, automotive leadership all the way. You are a mission, vision driven leader. You are an authentic leader. You have no background in the auto industry. You're the CEO of an electric bus company. You're a disruptor, no question. What advice would you have for leaders in the auto industry today?

I would probably offer two things. One would be find a way to carve out a bigger r&d budget, and encourage more of your team to spend 5% of their time just tinkering and iterating. And it's everyone across the org because it has to become a cultural component of who you are. I read The New York Times this morning when it was delivered. And there's a quick note in there about how Elon Musk is sort of finally recognized as a leader in automotive, Tesla, right? And it's a function of the big incumbents deciding that they're going to adopt some interoperability standards with Tesla supercharging stations because it's too hard to ignore. That should be maybe the biggest wakeup call that they have, there has to be a cultural shift. And so, when your finance org is empowered to iterate and tinker, you come up with new creative ideas on how to fund your batteries, how to lower the cost of your vehicle, how to integrate tax credits better, your dealerships need to empower the empowered to sort of think more creatively about how they deliver product, how they stay relevant. I mean, some of the most successful growing auto companies have eliminated dealers because they think they're just adding too much cost without enough value. I would actually disagree. I think good dealers add a tremendous, tremendous amount of value and we view them as key partners in medium and heavy duty. They're not going anywhere. I think some of them need more training and they need to be brought into the EV world, but they're absolutely necessary. And then Jan, I would say I'd offer one more thought which is senior leadership, because it always comes down to leadership. It needs to spend more time thinking like the way you do about the traits for success. And they need to think more about entrepreneurial spirit. And they need to think more about getting some training to sort of be brought into this world of innovation. Yes, they need to be driven by process and metrics because that's how they deliver really, really reliable vehicles. But they have to balance that with really training and coaching that allows and gives them sort of permission to bring more innovation into their businesses.

That is beautifully said. I interviewed Stephen Covey on his book, trust and inspire. And he said, taking command and control in the workplace today is like taking a golf club to a tennis match, is the wrong tool. It's just not going to get it done.

I agree.

There it is. Wow. Duncan McIntyre. Thank you very much for your time today. It has been an absolute pleasure.

Yes Jan, thank you, and congratulations on your platform. It's awesome to see what we're what you're doing and real pleasure to be on today. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

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