Our willingness to embrace and make space for all aspects of ourselves, both the good and the bad, can lead to greater peace and contentment in our lives. By practicing gratitude and mindfulness, we can shift our mindset and find joy in the present moment.

And the way we perceive the universe, whether as benevolent or something to fear, shapes our experiences and interactions with the world. Understanding the power of our perspectives can help us navigate life with more compassion and openness.

Ben is joined in this episode by Haemin Sunim, a Buddhist monk from South Korea. He has written several books and is known for his simple and evocative writing style. Haemin's work focuses on mindfulness, healing, and finding peace in our lives.

He combines Buddhist teachings with practical advice to help people navigate challenges and cultivate compassion and gratitude. In addition to writing, Haemin runs the School for Broken Hearts, where he invites people facing difficulties to have open-hearted conversations and learn from one another. In his discussion with Ben, he highlights the importance of embracing all aspects of ourselves and finding joy in the present moment.

Links

• Follow Haemin on Instagram
• Haemin’s books:
• Love for Imperfect Things: How to Accept Yourself in a World Striving for Perfection
• The Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down: How to be Calm in a Busy World
• When Things Don’t Go Your Way: Zen Wisdom for Difficult Times
• The School for Broken Hearts

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking.

The series of conversations with academics advisors, entrepreneurs and activists, people all championing those ideas on the margins, the periphery.

Why is this important?

Well, as the systems on which we've depended for the last 50, 60 stroke thousand years, crumble and creek people increasingly looking for new stories, new ideas, new myths, if you like, that might guide and inform how they live and work.

So in these conversations, we take time to speak to those people who are championing the ideas on the margins, championing the ideas on the periphery, those ideas which are gonna shape the mainstream tomorrow.

Uh, and our hope is that you are a little bit inspired, a little bit curious enough to take some of these ideas and bring them back to the day-to-day of your work and your life.

Uh, Haemin, thank you for joining me today.

Thank you for inviting me.

Oh, it's a pleasure.

It's an absolute pleasure.

So, I've been familiar with your writing essentially for quite a few years now, so really excited to, to be able to talk to you.

And so just a little bit of context, I'm actually wearing two hats, although as.

Haemin can see on video.

And if you are watching anything of this, you will know too.

I'm actually just wearing one hat, but the two hats that I'm wearing are, this conversation will go out to the two communities of which I'm very active and part of.

One is the Peripheral Thinking community, which is where this podcast exists.

And of course the other community is, is Sangha Live, our online community uh, which provides meditation and all sorts of various kind of teachings and practices.

So really excited to be able to share this conversation with both of those communities.

So I guess for people who don't know you like I said, I've been familiar with your writing now for a few years through two of the brilliant books that you've written and we'll get to today talking about your the third book, which is out now.

And uh, there was some, I think, I dunno if I read it as a quote or if I imagined it, but I don't know if somebody described your writing as something like the feel of a, of a warm hug, or in my mind it was the kind of feeling of being in a warm bath, that there was something very nourishing, very kind of very warming by your writing.

So, um, while we're kinda running the bath of that, and we'll come to your, your third book in a little while, for the people who don't know, how did you come to be writing and, and what is some of what is your work essentially?

Oh, so, as some people know, I am a, Buddhist monastics from South Korea.

But I went to school in the US for my educations undergraduate and also graduate school here.

When I was young, I was very much interested in ultimate questions.

Who am I and what will happen when we die, and what's the purpose of our living here.

So I decided to become a monk because I was, I really wanted to experience quote unquote enlightenment, awakening experience like the way the Buddha did.

So I went through the training and then I, um, follow many different teachers and had my own sets of unique spiritual experience.

And then I had to uh, work for my own, teacher in there is a know small um, Buddhist temple in New York, which is about one hour north of Manhattan.

And that's where I served.

And, but interestingly, when I first became a monk, I thought that all I had to do is just, meditate and then become awakened, and that's all there is to it.

But then I realized that in a lot of work involves care for parishioners.

Our members, tho our members are usually, um, Korean American or, Korean immigrants to the United States.

So they had a lots of, personal sufferings and many different kinds of uh, problems cultural and linguistic, challenges generational, you know, problems and so I have to like listen to them and try to help them, and which in deepen my practice or compassions.

the, the kind of practice of, of writing, has that always been a, a key part of what you do, but how did you, how did that come to be a key sort of tool, if you like, in your own teaching?

I think writing has been a, time for me to reflect and pause and what I, whenever I become mindful of some of the silly aspects or petty aspects, some of the negative quote unquote negative aspect of myself, I pause and try to be mindful of the very content that I am, observing.

And as I am doing that, uh, I in writing that out and usually I write it for a small newspaper, a Buddhist newspaper in Korea, and that helps me to really, look into it in a much deeper way.

And then also I start posting some of my thoughts online through social media.

And then I was able to interact with other people.

And then, you know, eventually I started school for Broken Hearts immediately after the success of my books.

And so in Korea uh, where there aren't a whole lot of group therapies.

So I invite people who are going through um, you know, difficulty in their lives, whether it is, um, you know, cancer, diagnose, like recent cancer diagnose or whether it's illness or divorce or, some kind of failure in their life.

When you simply have a very low self-esteem, you know, I invited them and we got together and have an open heart conversations.

And I guess in a way the kind of popularity of the writing and the school for Broken Hearts, that brought your teaching to a sort of real wide number of people, didn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I cannot just talk about high Buddhist philosophy to average, people who are suffering.

I have to, meet them and really listen, to what, what is happening.

So it's not enough to say that, everything is mind projective.

You know, there is no such a thing as objective world out there.

Like you cannot just expound this kind of, high non-dual philosophy.

You do have to listen to them.

You know, Their problem is very concrete.

My, you know, my wife is just diagnosed with breast cancer.

What can I do?

I just got fired.

I don't have a job, I feel very insecure, what can I do?

So I have to do both, while addressing their um, unique needs and try to give them some practical advice.

But at the same time I have to introduce mindfulness, how this Buddhist practice can help them.

so the, this, the, your third book the book that, we are, we're talking about today.

One thing I will say, your writing has such a, sort of a beautiful simplicity to it and uh, it really is very, very evocative and it's going to just really so simple in its in its form it really gets to the heart of things.

And like I said very evocative.

And the titles are brilliant for all of them.

For the people who don't know the first two books I think in the right sequence, so the first one was The Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down.

The second is A Love for Imperfect Things.

And this third book is titled When Things Don't Go Your Way.

And in a sense the telling of this story from the writing, the book seems to have it, its kind of origin sometime around 2020, is that right?

Yes.

I had some difficulty in my lives, because I appear on Korean, televisions and then people start um, mis misunderstood me basically.

And there were lots of um, online, you know, attack on me.

Just they, there's a lot of misunderstanding.

They, imagine that I live very opulent life and have a Ferrari and all that stuff, which is ridiculous because I don't even have a Korean driver's license.

And, but uh, my, also, my teacher told me to just go back to your, original mind, the first mind, and then beginner's mind, and then just go into temple and just pray and practice, so that's what I did.

But in the meanwhile it was very interesting for me because it was a journey of healing from that difficult experience.

I confront my own fear and right behind the fear there was a lot of undiscovered aspect of myself waiting to be unlocked.

So I faced my own, fear, especially uh, fear of abandonment.

I ever since I was very young, I don't know why, I was so afraid to be abandoned.

It was strange to me because my parents were really loving and kind and supportive, and so I just could not understand why this fear, where it is coming from?

And then as I was doing the healing work it came up uh, some kind of fresh, like a.

Like memory that I had been repressed, when I was like four, maybe four or five.

And uh, I lost my mother in the big open market and I was um, looking for my mom and I couldn't find her.

And then there was a strange lady came and took me to uh, her place and I thought something was really strange.

So I, basically rushed out and then it ran as fa fast as I could and back to the open market.

And continued to look for my mom.

And I was able to finally found her.

And this whole experience was really traumatic for me, and so painful that I repressed it.

So I was able to unlock that trauma and give a, loving healing message to my inner child that is, I'm here for you.

I will never abandon you.

I see you and I love you no matter what.

So I continue to do that.

It's, if you have that kind of experience, you know, I recommend that you use your, uh, child photo, your own child photo.

So I have a photo of me when I was like four or five, and I put that onto my cell phone, mobile phone background, you know, whenever I turn it on, that's the first image that I'm gonna see.

And then I look at that innocent looking child and try to give that message.

That is, I love you.

I, I'm here for you.

I, I will not abandon you.

Well that is, is a kind of a beautiful story.

Thank you for sharing.

I guess the thing that kind of reminds me or comes to mind as you are sharing that, is how underneath, as a almost like a sort of silent hand, which is shaping what we're doing, how we're reacting things, how we respond to things, what triggers us, what worries us, are these sort of underlying stories.

You spoke about there a fear, a fear, which is a fear of abandonment by think about my, my own stumbling through life.

I'm kind of really reactive to feelings of loss or feelings of rejection.

And so I, I, it's almost as though I kind of look for these triggers in my day-to-Day interactions in my day-to-Day conversations my day-to-Day relationships.

And so the thing that kind of come into mind as you were sharing that story there is just how pervasive these sort of silent hands of the kind of emotions, the worries, the fears that sit underneath how, how sort of strong they are in shaping how we, how we, how we travel through our lives.

Right, right.

Like, you know, right underneath our subconsciousness there is a oceans of, you know me, that is waiting to be discovered.

And only when we embrace them, and allow them to be there and recognize their presence, that we can make peace with them.

And when we make peace with them, then we can finally coexist.

The, some of the problems that I see is that, we pick and choose some aspect of myself.

I love it.

And therefore I, I like that and I want them to stay.

And some aspect of myself, I feel very shameful and I don't like it.

I think it's very embarrassing.

Or I cannot believe that it is there, you know, with my pettiness, my jealousy, you know, my anger.

But if you can just widen your space of your mind and just allow them to be there then, you know, you can cohabit it.

You don't have to be a saint.

You can be the whole person, good and bad, and that's not bad either.

I'm thinking the, the, that the kind of practice of of not being the saint or of, of cohabiting of allowing all of these things to exist at the same time, I guess the, the key word in there, it's a practice, isn't it?

And to do this, uh, with kindness, to do this with compassion.

If I think about, again my own experience of this, you know, in reality whilst I, I know I may react negatively to, like I said, kind of feelings of loss or feelings of rejection.

I may know that, but the kind of, the frequency with which I can get caught by it, of course, important to come with kindness to it because easy to trip up over and over again.

Yeah.

It, it's a practice.

Yeah, like you said.

We often just do it again and again until we learn our lessons.

And the same pattern will just appear, again and again.

I was talking to my friend and she was telling me that, uh, she cannot believe, how her new boyfriend resemble her ex, and I think it's interesting how, go through the same experience, if we do not learn our lessons.

There is a good chance that we will repeat, same pattern again and again.

And, but one of the important thing is whether it's good or bad, realize that it is our own judgment.

It is what it is.

It is neither good nor bad.

Only when we start, judging it, it becomes bad.

And at the same time, you are witnessing all of this.

You are observer.

You are not at which you are observing.

So, you know, when there is a jealousy, you know, let the cloud of jealousy come in and then, it will go away naturally.

So you don't have to identify yourself with jealousy.

You don't have to identify, or with your anger, you are this calm observer, all those clouds, calm in and out.

But you don't have to hold on to any of 'em.

Um, your book poses some really lovely but simple and important questions.

Like one of the ones which uh, you, you kind of asked earlier is why are we unhappy?

Yeah.

It, It is simple, you know, we are unhappy because we cannot, be peaceful with what is, you know, we want something else basically, you know, we want other than what is, we want other than what is given.

So what happened is we either resist what you already have or you try to grasp something that you don't have.

So there two activities of our mind that is resistance and grasping.

As long as you go back and forth you feel unhappy.

That is, you know, when you, whenever you are you want to grasp something that you want, and yet you don't have it yet, and or you know it's coming on your way and yet you don't like it, therefore, you are resisting.

So I introduced this practice of gratitude.

As you, a lot of listeners know if, when we feel grateful we do not resist.

We feel grateful that it has happened.

And then when we feel grateful, uh, we don't look for something better.

We are content with what is, so I say, you can text yourself whenever you feel grateful or you find somebody like your gratitude buddy, and you can, or you can text each other, you know, whenever you feel very grateful.

So you can encourage each other, you know, we can encourage each other to send more messages about gratitude.

If you want to pick up small pebble, just put it nice little pebble, a stone in your living room, so when you, whenever you pass by, you know, you see the stone, the pebble, and then think of something that you feel very grateful.

And you can also say, thank you wholeheartedly, to people who are helping you whether you are in gas stations or coffee shops or supermarket, you can say thank you, genuinely, deeply.

So this practice of gratitude can actually alleviate our two tendencies to making ourself unhappy, un fulfilled.

Thank you for that.

I kind of, I I, I really enjoyed the, what you are sharing there about that, the reminder whether, whether it's the pebble, I guess one of the things that I find is, so I try and just remind my or, or reflect on things that I'm grateful for, whether in, in the morning or, or in the.

In the evening, and I sort of conscious that there are definitely times where I think, you know, I'm not actually, I don't feel grateful.

I don't feel grateful right now.

And I can't, like, can't get my mind to a place, you know, I feel like I'm scrambling around trying to find something that I'm grateful for and the more I'm scrambling around trying to find something that I'm grateful for, the less I feel grateful and then I get stuck in it, stuck in a loop.

And I guess the helpful reminder in what you're saying is actually just to, to bring it closer, to focus on the simple things, to focus on the things which are gonna much more immediately available rather than needing to be a big thing that I'm grateful for out there.

Absolutely.

You know, you know, Like whenever I, like, when I was young, you know, I had to go to a public bath with my father, and then he woke us up at me and my younger brother at five in the morning on Saturday, because that's the time when the water is the cleanest, you know, according to my father.

So we, you know, waking up at five in the morning was so hard, as a, like, nine years old or seven years old, you know, kid, little kid.

But after having, in a bath taking a shower I feel so much better, so whenever we don't feel like, great, grateful, just like, you know, taking a shower and after taking a shower, you feel, you know, happier, so that uh, just the, by the act of saying thank you, thank you, you know, I don't feel like it, but, thank you, for this warm weather, thank you that it's not.

Cold and snowy, thank you that I am still alive.

Thank you for this, you know, deep breath, and my body feels relaxed.

This, you know, wheel to this attitude that I just change, just slightly.

That can actually shift our mind, greatly.

But if you don't feel like, grateful at all, then just practice mindfulness that is, oh, I don't feel like grateful, and that's okay.

Just be mindful of that.

You know, I, I don't feel like it, you know, that's fine.

Uh, So just make your body, your mind, so wide and so, huge.

You just embrace everything.

It's okay.

Just you become mindful of, you know, what's happening.

And what I then find when I do that is actually not dissimilar to what you were talking about before, actually, being mindful, making space for the sort of, the kind of agitated, often smaller version of me, which is sort of in a way jumping up and down and kind of upset about something.

And the, the kind of mindfulness creates the space for that version of me.

Also to, to, just to relax a little bit, I guess is what comes with lending it some space, with seeing it and holding it within that kind of mindful, bigger picture.

Absolutely.

Yeah, you are, you are, correct.

It's our willingness and making space uh, whether it's a good or bad.

And as soon as we, you know, have that space then we can relax a little bit,

Beautiful.

You ask a another really good question, which I.

Reflected on quite a bit.

It's you, you kind of framed it as how do we feel about the universe?

And it was a, it was a question that I've sort of read uh, not say, I guess is often the way, often I think where there are a great quotes that people have said, certainly in kind of my experience they normally get attributed to one of a few number of people.

And I, I've often heard this kind of referenced via Einstein, that somehow Einstein asked the question about how you feel about the universe, but you write about it very uh, kind of beautifully in the book about the extent to which we see the universe as a benevolent or, or we see the universe as some sort of uh, as some as something to fear, and the importance of this in not in

very similar way to what we're talking about, I guess with gratitude, the importance of this in terms of, understanding that this is then the lens through which we travel through the world.

So yeah, I was, I was very curious that you framed the question in that way, this idea, how do we feel about the universe?

Right.

Yeah.

Like, it's not there is objective world outside that we can have access to it instead.

It is the world that we perceive is very much subjective.

So if you feel that the world is unreliable and untrustworthy and it is source of fear.

And then you will experience that universe.

And conversely, if you actually believe that universe is benevolent it is there to help you, guide you, to the, right destinations it's going to give you the job that you need, or your friends or your lovers whatever that you re you, your heart desires, then you will, see that is what's gonna happen to your life.

So there is no objective universe out there.

Instead it is.

How you perceive.

Sometimes we feel like a victim, you know, we just go to this victim mindset where I don't have any power and, I feel like everything, everyone is just giving me hard time.

There's nothing I can do, this kind of victim mindsets.

But you can actually, change it by saying that I'm going to be the creator of my own destiny.

I'm not just going to be there and just live my life passively.

Instead, I made my decision to be happier.

I made my decision to engage in a meaningful world meaningful work, you know?

So you have a lot more power than you think, our mind has a lot more power whichever area we, pay our attention to that area becomes bigger and more important.

And it becomes more, apparent.

Whereas in other words, if you just zeroing on the world that with lots of ne negative news, then you'll see more and more negative news negativity around you.

But if you see a lot of, positive things, then you'll also experience a lot of positive things because we cannot, access to objective world.

We only live in subjective world.

And I, I guess what we are talking about there a little bit is the idea that psychologists call confirmation bias, don't they?

That we tend to see the thing that we are looking for in a sense.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yes.

That is so true.

Um, So I, I wanted to ask, people because my, for my case, that particular, how I view the universe, it came from my own, father.

So it's usually generational um, it passed down, from your one generation to another.

And so if your grandparents were, had some kind of trauma, then that trauma quite easily passed down to your father.

And it is also passing down to you.

Uh, That was exactly what was happening to me during the Korean War.

My grandparents and my father didn't have a whole lot of, food to eat.

There's no shoes, nothing.

And therefore the life was very difficult and everything, in order to survive you have to compete.

You cannot, rely on other people health.

So, um, the world, my parents, especially my father's, he lived, was very much uncaring.

And you have to, work very hard to just, to survive.

Subconsciously I inherited that worldview.

So it was harder in the beginning when I was 20 years old to, trust the universe, to see the universe as benevolent, and so, however as I became a Buddhist monk and I have another, you know, father figure my teacher who's the, exactly the opposite, he believes that there,

there are plenty pies to go around for everyone, whenever he prays to the Buddha, you know, good things happen to him all the time.

So he is incredible optimist and he has a lot of faith in the Buddha and faith in the universe.

So I learned, you know, a lot from him.

For Somebody who hasn't then had the kind of opportunity and practice, say, even look obviously on of a monastic training or, how can somebody start to explore and experiment and better understand what stories, what ideas they may have inherited, which is kind of, uh, causing them to see the universe, this way or that way?

I mean, what's your, your kind of feeling or your insight about how somebody might start to explore or experiment with that themselves?

I think you can listen to what people say about you.

You don't have to believe everything, what other peoples are saying.

But you know, Somebody who's very close to you and very, you know, loving to you and they say something about uh, some patterns in know, in your behavior or in your mental thinking, then you can ask, why do I have that pattern?

Why do I keep coming back to, the same mistake or same, way of behaving?

Because, it can cause a lot of suffering to other people's too, you know.

As my father was very much, trying to hold onto what he has and not very uh, giving to other people besides his own immediate family, when I saw that, I really did not like it.

Like, especially when I was teenager.

And his friends.

And so he doesn't have a whole lot of friends, for example.

I find it very sad and I talked about this with my father, you know, um, and he's not um, he's like slowly, you know, being aware of what's what happened in his life.

So this level of self-awareness, you know, we develop as we confront our own suffering.

If there is a repeated suffering again and again, and then we come, we realize, oh, maybe it's not others, you know, maybe it's me.

You know, you know, Like I, in the beginning I blame other people, it's my ex's, fault, it's not my fault.

It's the way my ex behave.

And then, uh, you have a second, you know, relationship failure, and they re, re you realize, oh, what's happening?

Uh, Maybe there's some part of me that I have contributed.

To this, what is that?

You know, What's the pattern?

You know, Where did I get that from?

Yeah, that's a, it's a very helpful uh, point of that because I, I certainly think about lots of people I know, or even reflecting on myself where I would may often see those patterns is in my work and the idea that the same kind of problems are following me around, or the same kind of interactions with people are following me around.

And it's a great kind of opportunity to, like you say, reflect and ask the question who maybe it's me that is bringing these uh, these problems to the party.

And so, yeah, so kind of using our, our own behavior as a, as a prompt is a very helpful one.

Yeah.

Because we are suffering, because of those pattern, you know, we are constantly repeating the same experience.

So we need to be wiser and say stop and what's happening.

I'm really, really sort of struck by how kind of long established a lot of these triggers, these suffering prompts are.

There's a, a, a story you, you talk about in the book which is, there's a lot to do with the relationship that you had with your cousins and your uncle when you were growing up,

yeah, I have to say that, you know, I, you know, had a lot of jealousy, you know, when I was growing up.

It's a little um, embarrassing to accept it but especially when there was a, huge uh, disparity.

my uncles had so much uh, he had a very nice, you know, apartments um, and very lived in a very nice neighborhood.

And then my parents we lived in a very small, tiny studio, and that didn't even get any sunlight during the daytime.

So I felt, whenever I go to see my grandparents uh, in, in my uncle's house, I felt so,

angry, you know, and then didn't feel good about myself or my parents.

So that experience I'm sure, anybody can relate to, you know, whenever you have jealousy towards your cousins or your, siblings or your friends and I talk about in my book how to overcome it.

How can we use that for the better, you know?

Yeah.

'cause again, I just sort of, uh, really struck by how these sort of, events or layers upon layers of uh, experiences that we've had, interactions that we've had, how these, these come to shape so much about how we travel through the world, you know, how we come to relate to other people how we choose the work that we do.

And, for many of us to varying degrees these impacts remain pretty blind to us actually.

You know, we don't, We don't take time to surface them.

We don't take time to, to understand them.

And then I guess the consequence of that a lot is, for large parts of the time we we're sort of operating a little bit on, on a kind of blind autopilot.

Right, right.

Even the you a wonderful psychotherapist, they have their own blind spots and I see even the great, you know, spiritual masters, they have their own blind spots.

And so it's important to go deep into your subconsciousness and, you know, allow all those emotions and try to understand them and also, you know, honor their existence rather than repressing them and pretending that you don't have any, such issues.

So if somebody says, like, especially, you know, people close to you are saying something about you and at first you don't agree, they say you don't have it, and then another person very close and there's no uh, intention of hurting you.

But they are just saying something.

So, your very close friend or your family or somebody is saying it to you.

And then same things they're talking about again and again.

Then at first you might be in denial, but after hearing, second and third and fourth time, then you might be, saying, oh, maybe that's my blind spot.

Something that I have not actually fully explore.

I'm just curious, actually, a as you're talking, was there a sort of specific prompt for writing this book now?

I just wanted to show people, you know, how.

I was able to heal myself.

You know, uh, When you have a, traumatic experience in your life even the, the Buddhist monk or the founder of, broken hearts school for broken hearts.

We have to go through, uh, the journey of healing.

It starts with our own body.

That is when there is some trauma, the trauma resides in our own body.

You cannot just snap out of it by having a positive thought.

You have to release all those trapped energy within your body.

So I dance a lot.

I, you know, hike the mountain, quite a bit.

I do yoga, you know, uh, I do a lot of activities, you know, walk every day, you know, two, three hours and then talk to trust the friends, you know, honestly,

and so I get to fully, have the reflection.

I do journaling, you know, write down and ask questions to my deeper self, future self, if you will.

And to me the question was, what are you really afraid of?

Because only when we can face our own inner fear and walk through it and you realize that, oh, this wasn't so bad.

I don't know why I was so afraid of uh, usually right behind the fear.

That's where your uh, potential, you are a great greatest, some of the greatest potential.

It is there to be unlocked.

One of the um, things that you write about in the book is, is, is is loneliness, which obviously is increasing, I guess people are increasingly aware of it, aren't they?

Politicians talk about it a lot.

It seems to be something which uh, more and more of us are aware of or more and more of us are experiencing.

And so I guess part of what you talked to in the book is talking to this idea this, this pandemic of loneliness.

Yes.

With the um, development of our technology uh, we are so easily we can connect to other people very, very easily.

In the past, you know, whenever you want to call, make an international phone call it costs a lot of money, but nowadays, you can just text message or you can call anyone basically, right, for free.

And yet a lot of people feels isolated and unhappy, especially when they're scrolling through social media.

It seems everyone is doing a lot better than you.

And why am I feeling so, not good.

Why am not?

That beautiful or not so successful like them.

But the thing is, we have commit to meet your close friends face to face on a regular basis.

Especially if you can uh, do things, engage in activity together, whether it's hiking or whether it's, playing tennis, uh, or exercising together or re you know, going to library together, you know, uh, if you do things together with your friends and then while having lunch or coffee together, you can have a, you know, good conversations.

That can definitely alleviate your suffering.

And one of the reasons why we feel lonely is because we cannot let ourselves to be seen.

We are so afraid that once, once we talk about our innermost desire, innermost, you know what's really happening in our lives, we are afraid to be judged.

What if my friends, after listening to my story spread rumor about me, all the secrets that I told him what if he spill it, to, to in other friends?

Therefore we feel we have to just play the role.

You, we are just, wearing mask and just do the role and without taking the mask down and showing our real feelings.

So, it is important to have a friend with whom you can be real.

You don't have to pretend uh, you don't have to be judged.

And for that, you have to be the f f person who can be reliable, who's receptive and kind and supportive, and also keep their secrets.

And then uh, your friends will do the same.

it's interesting.

So hearing that, because obviously the, then this idea of kind of loneliness, so that, that makes a lot of sense.

That in a way we are sort of hiding.

We are keeping some of ourselves hidden so we are disconnected from ourselves, which then by extension makes us feel disconnected and, and kind of, uh, disconnected from others.

And so with that lonely, but I guess in a sense that it's probably been true for the human condition for many, many thousands of years in some respects.

And so whether, the kind of current sort of pandemic of lo of loneliness just, is a sort of slightly more about the comparison aspect of technology and what that's done.

Because I, I guess, yeah, I'm just kind of curious for your, your view on that, you know, in a sense that kind of keeping some of ourselves hidden, do you think, do you not think that's kind of been true for a long time given it's part of the human condition?

Oh, yes, absolutely.

It is part of our human nature.

We don't want to reveal something about ourselves to a person we cannot trust, right?

So, however, this technology, heightens this feeling of, I am not good enough, especially social media, if you look at them, it's, everything is just, so beautiful and so nice.

And so wonderful or so funny, whereas my life is monotonous, you know, it's not as exciting or successful or beautiful.

Therefore we tend to, compare ourselves to them and we feel lonely.

You know, If we feel like if we do not have that level of success or that level of beauty, then maybe, you know, I'm not worthy to talk about myself to, you know, my friends, maybe I'm not good enough, that kind of feeling.

However I think it's critical that we at least have a one or two friends with whom we can, show our true self.

We don't have to be so polite.

We can just talk about what's really happening in our lives.

And some of the disappointment, if you feel, if you can just share it with others.

Interestingly, that, feeling of heartache, it lessens significantly, um, because we are suffering alone.

That level of suffering deepens.

And it's interesting, I know when I was reading your book, you make the connection also between the impact on parenting here and 'cause this is a, a kind of a very sort of alive topic for me.

I've got two boys who are 13 and nine.

So of often thinking about the impact of, my own actions on them.

And of course, you know, in all parents, two varied degrees come with the best intent, however, that may kind of manifest.

But I, I was kind of, was really intrigued by something you were talking about in the book.

How given sort of lots of people, lots of us gonna grow up.

Never really feeling like we're able to be ourselves, because some behavior is encouraged, whether, explicitly or implicitly, some behavior is encouraged, some behavior is shunned.

Uh, And of course we learn from that.

Uh, Or the assu, the assumed learning from that is, I need to do more of this to, to remain in, in the good books.

And so we become estranged both from ourselves but then also from, from our, our parents a little bit.

And so I was really struck by that actually about the need to kind of uncover or the, the opportunity to, to uncover some of these layers a little bit to kind of remove, remove or limit the kind of barriers between myself and my children.

I thought it was interesting you talking a little bit about parenting in the context of loneliness too.

Yes.

Uh, um, you know, Sometime as a parents, they want to use their children like, sometime they want their children to be their best friends.

But I don't think in children's obligations to make your parents feel better.

So you need to have your own set of best friends, not your children.

Uh, Children's should have their own best friends, right?

It's good to have a close relationship, between parents and children's, but it's completely another thing if you are, emotionally relying on uh, your child for your, psychological wellbeing.

Or, like what especially Asian, parenting, like what they call a helicopter in a mother, could try to control everything or type a mother, like, to try to make your children get straight A and if you're not getting straight A, you're not good enough.

That kind of heavy like a huge expectation on your child that is also very much unhealthy because you are living your life through children's achievements.

You should have your own achievements and then let children have their own life.

And you should definitely encourage them to do well at school.

Definitely.

But you cannot, force them.

You cannot blackmail them.

If you don't get straight A, then you know, you know, I'm not gonna do x, y and Z for you.

That's blackmail.

And the thing which then comes to mind as you are talking there, obviously the kind of Buddhist teachings, thousands of years in the, in, in the telling, in the living, in, in the doing.

And of course we are living in a time which I don't know, feels like a time of profound change, but I'm not sure if everybody says that at their time of change.

But, you know, with, with so much happening technologically, socially, economically environmentally, ecologically, so much feels that it, feels to be in a time of flux.

I'm curious, given, we were talking there a little bit about children and about, about parenting.

And I know this is a question which comes up, which has come up for people in my community and will be true for people too in, in on the, the San as part of the Sangha Live community, You know, what, what, what do we think is most important for for parenting?

Well, in a time like this, which seems to be a time of such profound change.

I think, it's important to share this fundamental Buddhist teachings of, how everything is impermanent and change is inevitable.

And if you childrens accept the change as opposed to resisting it and seeing that as, something negative because it is neither negative nor positive, it is what it is changing is inevitable and it has always has changed.

It's been always changing and it will continue to be.

So rather than labeling as something bad or good, see for what it is.

And then another important maybe, thing to talk about is, having good intentions.

It is our intention that creates the universe.

What kind of intention do you have?

Are you having an intention to create something for the better?

And are you are learning about your own world with that intention.

So, so that you don't do it in a blinded way.

So check with your own intentions whether you are doing it just so that you can actually benefit not just for yourself, for, people around you as well.

Beautiful.

Thank you.

And, And so I guess that a final question 'cause, picking up on that idea of intention a little bit.

What's your, what's your intention?

Your hope, your intention, I guess if they can be conflated together a hope and intention.

But what's your intention for people reading the book?

I hope they read all the way to the end because the last chapter is the most beautiful chapter in my mind.

And in all three my books.

Uh, The last chapter, that's where I really wanted to share the things that I really wanted to share.

I talked about it.

That is our own true nature.

Our true nature is our awareness.

It is not necessarily our emotion and thoughts, which are constantly changing, but you can anchor yourself in your own awareness, as an observer.

Everything you know, comes and goes.

Like if you are into mind mindfulness in meditations what happened to the mind when there is no object to be mindful of?

We are mindful, usually mindful of our thoughts or emotions, feeling, bodily sensations.

But there is also a period when you sit and meditate.

There is nothing to be mindful of, and the mind is quiet.

Then what happen?

What happen is you become mindful of your own mind.

You're mindful of your own awareness.

So for the first time you are looking at that, which is looking at you.

And that is awareness.

You know, When you can do that, you come to realize who you truly are.

You are not the body.

You are not the emotion, you're not the feeling.

It's all come and go.

But the ground, the background when all those things is happening, this empty, transparent, awareness it never gave any birth to any kind of form, and therefore it will not die.

And so if you can actually awaken to your own true nature that's where you find uh, peace and true relaxation and liberation.

Thank you very much, Haemin.

Yeah, and I should say for people who are not familiar with your books, there are a sort of a beautiful combination of sort of short story or essay.

I think that they're described as, which is, is often, you recounting a story of your own.

And then lots and lots of really, really kind of beautiful um, short little insights or reflections or, or standards.

I think they've also been, been referred to, and certainly the way I have read the other two books is they're great accompaniments, and I think we were talking at the beginning about the idea of.

The kind of feeling of a, of a warm bath.

And so this idea of uh, kind of carry the books around and they're great to dip into and dip out of because lots and lots of really useful, provocative, insightful little in invitations, reflections, which are offered throughout the book.

And a great way of of kind of playing with and reflecting on and going deeper into a lot of the ideas that you've shared.

So, just wanted to point people to that because it is the books are, the books feel like a, a little artwork to me.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

And uh, you, you, you talk about your intention of wanting people to get to the, the final chapter.

I, I know when, when I was reading I go, there's not only the kind of final chapter, but there's just a kind of beautiful little reflection right at the end.

And so I really do encourage people to, to read the book.

So I know it's, it's out in the US now.

We are recording this very early February 2024.

And so it's out in the US now.

That's right.

And the title, When Things Don't Go Your Way, Zen Wisdom for Difficult Times.

And I know it's, so it's due out in the UK and other countries in the coming weeks and months.

Is that right?

Right.

In the uk March like 23rd or something like that.

Yeah.

So, toward the last week of March the uk edition will be even better.

You'll have a lots of beautiful illustration inside.

So please um, you know, pick it up if you can and connect with me on Instagram if you have one.

And I would love to hear, what you thought about my book after reading it.

And that would be uh, really, really nice for me.

Brilliant Haemin.

Yeah.

I will include the links to um, your Instagram and point people to uh, to the book in the accompanying show notes.

And yeah, I equally really do invite people to to buy the book and dive into the reading and to really enjoy it as much as I have.

So Haemin, thank you so much for taking the time to come to talk to us today.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Have a wonderful day.

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