In this episode of 'Between Two Ellens,' Marilyn Luper Hildreth shares anecdotes about her mother, Clara Luper, a dedicated educator and civil rights activist. Marilyn recounts the transformative sit-ins led by young students in Oklahoma City, their impact on desegregation efforts, and her mother's enduring influence on education and civil rights. The discussion also touches on the current state of democracy and the importance of voting and civic engagement.

Welcome to another episode of Between two Ellens.

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Uh, the Ellens are really

excited to have our guest here.

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Uh.

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Marilyn, uh, Luper Hildrith, thank you

so much for being between two Ellens.

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Oh, thank you for inviting me.

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It's, uh, there's been a lot

that's happened this year, but we

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could go all the way back and talk

about things and, uh, where it

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started, but it's really up to you.

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My only question is I

love to talk about moms.

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I love my mom and Ellen, and I, of

course, we talk about ours and I

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know that you talk about your mom

a lot, so if you wanna start there.

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Of course,

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Speaker 2: I love

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Speaker: to

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Speaker 2: talk about my mom.

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My mother was an educator.

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You told me on the way over here, your

mother was too, and, but my mother

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was teaching day in and day out.

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She was my mother 24 7.

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And she wanted to make sure that we had

the opportunities that she never had.

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And it's so funny because.

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Her house, if you couldn't

smell it, you couldn't eat it.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it didn't take you long to

learn how to spell a cheeseburger.

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So it was, everything was a lesson.

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She taught us how to do a hundred

math problems in a minute.

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As a matter of fact, she had addition

multiplication, table division,

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and subtraction, and she put a

hundred problems on a sheet and we.

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Said, mom, nobody does a hundred

math problems in a minute per page.

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Mm.

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She said, oh, you all gonna do it?

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I took a word for it.

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So every day we, we come home from

school, we would take these pieces

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of paper and do our math and we

got, so we could do it in a minute.

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I guess that's why we're

so good at math now.

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But she was always using an opportunity.

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To challenge us in education

where a lot of kids got a lot of

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toys for Christmas, we got books.

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Speaker 3: Mm.

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Speaker 2: Um, she was the type of

person the kids loved to be around.

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We had a small house and

I call it a shotgun house.

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You could stand outside in the, out on

our front yard and look through the house,

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and everybody loved to be over there.

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We didn't have any money, but

she always fed, fed all the kids.

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Mm-hmm.

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And we never ran out of food.

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I, I asked God, you better

explain that to me now.

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But we would always, they would

have so much fun over there and

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they loved to be around and she

taught school for over 40 years.

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And even as time has progressed

since the death, I need

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people out in the public and.

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At the grocery store, wherever.

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And they said, your mother taught me.

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And I was president of her class.

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I was speaker of the house.

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I was, and they just go on and on.

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I said, oh, I'm sure you were good.

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And your mother never forgot me

because I was your mother's favorite.

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I said, I'm sure you

were, what's your name?

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But she loved education.

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She really believed that

all kids could learn.

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Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 4: And now where did she

teach and what did she teach?

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Now you

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Speaker 2: asked me where,

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Speaker 4: mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: When she started

teaching in the Oklahoma City

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area, she taught at Dungy.

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Dge was one of the, in Spencer, Oklahoma.

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Very poor area.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: But very

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loving.

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And they wanted their

kids to have a better day.

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She wanted her kids to have a better day,

and she loved Dungy because she saw the

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potential in the young people out there.

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She taught there for I don't know

how many years, and she taught at

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Northeast, at Northwest Classon.

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At John Marshall.

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She retired from John Marshall.

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Okay,

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Speaker 4: so high school.

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Speaker 2: High school.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yes.

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And she was a well of a teacher.

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She had a classroom set up just like

the House of Representatives and Senate,

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so all of her students know more about

history than most people in in the

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community because they were president

of the class or speak of the house and

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they could tell you their jobs and,

and they were just very proud of the

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fact that they had that opportunity.

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Oh gosh.

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That sounds so exciting.

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That does,

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Speaker 4: that sounds like a class

that everybody would flourish in.

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But I would've loved to have had

a teacher like that growing up.

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Speaker 2: Well, I, as a matter of fact,

I changed school so I wouldn't have

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to go to school because she was hard.

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She was fair,

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Speaker 5: but she was

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Speaker 2: hard.

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She wanted to make sure

that you didn't play.

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Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Education to

her was a serious matter.

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Because she felt that if you

got it in your head, nobody

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Speaker 5: mm-hmm.

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Can

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Speaker 2: take it away from you.

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Speaker: Well, you knew

her expectations too.

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Yes.

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She was strong like that.

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So sometimes that makes learning

a little bit easier when you

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know what that boundary is.

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Are you sure?

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Speaker 5: She was pretty tough.

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She was very tough.

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She didn't play.

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She didn't play.

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Speaker 4: So obviously one of the

things, you know, one of the stories we

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would love for you to talk about is the

sit-in and maybe kind of just walk us

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through, you know, how it started, what

was what, what was that conversation

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like before you even got to ka?

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Speaker 2: Well, Ellen,

let me tell you something.

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Let me start before then.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: As I tell

you, mom taught at Dun.

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She, she wrote a play

entitled Brother President.

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Story of Martin Luther King Jr.

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And the Civil Rights Movement in

Montgomery, Alabama, where bus

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movement, the bus board county, and

she always made her students memorize.

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You could not be in a CLA Luther

production reading the script.

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You had to know this filter.

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And we performed, and I say we because.

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Calvin and I were always with mom,

so she had to put us in everything,

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perform the brother president play,

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and in the audience that night was

a guy by the name of Herbert Wright,

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who's a national youth director of the

naacp, and he saw that play and boy

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did the kids out there at that play.

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They stand ovations at

the whole ball away.

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And he invited one of her students to

go to New York City to put on the plate.

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And you have to know my mother to

understand this because she told

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him, you must better your math

because I can't take one student

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without taking all my students.

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And he said to her, Clara, you know,

we don't have no money to bring

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all these kids in New York City.

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And she told him, just allow

me the chance to take them.

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We'll get 'em there.

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Invite.

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He did that and the people in the Spencer

community raised money selling catfish

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dinners, selling chicken sandwiches,

selling blow pops, bubble gum, anything.

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They cooked pickle to raise money

to take these kids to New York City.

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They raised enough money for us

to go and the smart thing that I

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had to give my mother credit for.

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When she planned this trip to take

US students to New York City, she

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sat down and plotted out, and I

think she did it intentionally

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to take us the Northern room.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we did.

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And for the first time in our

lives, we had the opportunity

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to go into a restaurant and

to sit down and drink a coke.

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I eat a hamburger.

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Wow.

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Boy, you talking about feel good

and all the way up to New York.

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We didn't have to go to the

colored bathroom or drink outta

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the colored water fountain.

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We felt like somebody

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not having to go to the back of the

building to eat out a ground paper.

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S.

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We could eat like anybody else.

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You don't understand

what I'm talking about.

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It's a hard feeling to know that people

look at you just because of the color of

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your skin to think that you're inferior.

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So when we got to New York

City, oh, how is New York?

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Oh Lord, I felt like hair tub, a little

bit of freedom is a dangerous thing

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and I enjoyed the opportunity to be.

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To be treated like anybody.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Or somebody.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And not a nobody.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: So we put on the play

brother president in front of the

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NACP National Convention and they

gave us all kinda stand over there.

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Oh wow.

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We proud.

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Oh, we were proud, but

then we had to return home.

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I was just gonna say, how hard was that?

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Like you.

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We came back to the south.

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Speaker 5: Oh, wow.

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Speaker 2: Facing the same age old

discrimination and segregation and bigotry

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that we had faced all of our lives Wow.

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That we had become accustomed

to as black people.

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Mm-hmm.

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My mother used to tell us, see, in

America, you, when you born black, you

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live black and you gonna die black.

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So never forget that.

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People can change a lot of things, but

your blackness, you never can change.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: So we came

back through the south,

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came back, and we were sitting on the bus

and we were saying, oh, I like the way it

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felt going up here to New York City, but

I don't like the way it feels coming back.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: So

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knowing my mother, she said,

well come up with some solutions.

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And we had to what?

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What she asked us a simple

question, what is it that that

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you wanna see changed in Oklahoma

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and me?

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A hamburger meant a lot of things.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well you

could spell cheeseburgers

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and I said to just be able to go in

and like any other kid in America, I

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sit down and have that hamburger Coke.

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Well, we met with the, after we got back

the members of the Youth Council Center

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advisors, we met with the, um, restaurant

association here, and they said that

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they had to meet with their clientele.

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They came back with the decision

that the people in the restaurant

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association did not want to.

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Opened their doors to people of color,

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so, and we were discussing it

one night out in the front yard

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because we didn't have a building.

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The youth council made out my

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Speaker 3: and we

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Speaker 2: were sitting out there and

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this said, it just didn't happen.

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This is over a period of

time, a period of negotiation.

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And it seemed like it was forever.

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And I came up with a suggestion

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that we would go down to camp

drug store and we would sit

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down there until they service.

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Now I have a brother named Kathy.

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You have brother.

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So you know our brothers are said,

you know, you going to get us killed.

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Those white folks gonna kill us in

Oklahoma City because of your mouth.

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I said, no, we can just go

down there and be quiet and

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sit in and they gonna serve us.

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So how old were you then?

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I,

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I was nine and just, I

would turn 10 in September.

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Wow.

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So we went down there.

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We had to debate

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why we should go down there and

why we should not go down there.

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So my mother would always teach

us to debate the issue we had.

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We would even debate who had the

most sense, a man with a hair or of

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bald as she come up with anything.

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So we had the discussion about

why we should, I should not go

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I want, and Kevin said, okay, Meryl,

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we went down to cash that school.

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He stood by him.

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And, uh, it was 13 of us.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: It was actually 14 of us,

but one of, uh, names told thousand

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mother said she could not go in

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Speaker 5: because

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Speaker 2: nobody knew Right.

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What would happen.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: We, uh, went in there

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and went to the county, set out.

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And they said, what can we do?

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Um, can we help you?

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Yes.

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We want a Hamburg and a Coke.

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They said, we don't serve your can.

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My candy.

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Speaker 5: And so

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Speaker 2: then you just sat.

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Just sat.

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And we had been learning the essence.

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Of passive nonviolent

resistance of gun theory.

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Mm-hmm.

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And a king's theory, a

passive nonviolent resistance.

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When somebody kicked you moving foot,

when they set on, you wipe it off.

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When they hit turn the other

cheek, old as the Bible itself,

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the Lord, did we not know that we

were going have to implement it.

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Wow.

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And we sit, we went after we

sitting there with cats that night.

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They didn't know what to do.

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These people lost their lives.

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Come down here.

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We could go down to town and buy anything

that we wanted as long as we didn't

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try on the clothes, shoes, hats, or

anything, as long as we did, not because

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of the fact that our skin was black.

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Now, my grandmother would buy her shoes.

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But she would take a screen and measure

our foot before she would go downtown

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so that she could buy some shoes.

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Same way with clothes and hats.

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So

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the theory of segregation

and discrimination was cold,

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especially to those of us that

were victims of the system.

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Mm-hmm.

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We left cash structure that night.

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They didn't service.

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Speaker 5: How long did you stay

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Speaker 2: Until closing

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Speaker: time.

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So

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Speaker 5: three hours?

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Yeah, two hours.

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It was longer than that.

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Speaker: It was longer than that.

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And then, and during that time, customers

would come in, see you, and someone

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started to spit on you, and then someone

else thought that they could do it?

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Not, not then.

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Not then.

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Okay.

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Not then.

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Speaker 2: Because they didn't know what

they thought we had lost our house from.

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Yeah.

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Oh, okay.

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To that county.

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They just left you alone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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They assumed it was one time.

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Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

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And then they didn't know.

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Just, we didn't know We had to germinate.

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Speaker: So did your mom stand outside?

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No.

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No.

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My mother, she in there.

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In Okay.

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Speaker 2: In there watching.

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And she was always in there watching.

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Okay.

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To make sure that nothing

happened to, you know, the kids.

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Now I want you to remember one thing.

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In America at this time, Emmett Till

had been killed two years before we

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started City in Oklahoma City, and

a lot of the parents were afraid

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for the kids to participate because

of what happened to Emmett Till.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I

can imagine as a parent,

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Speaker 2: yes,

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Speaker 4: I, you know,

I can imagine the fear

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Speaker 2: and, and

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Speaker 4: I, I did not understand at that

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Speaker 2: time.

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I remember looking at TV when Emmett

Till's body was on the news, and I think

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that's one of the greatest things that,

that his mother could have done and

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children world, how they did her son.

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So we had parents were dealing with that.

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When we went back and

we kept going back to

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Speaker 5: Cat

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Speaker 2: Drugstore, and I

think it was on the fourth day,

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the cat drugstore said, okay.

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We were gonna serve you people.

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And they did At the counter.

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At the counter.

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But let me tell you something, not

only here in Oklahoma, but in all the

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Castro drug stores in the United States

that they start, that they would not

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serving blacks and start serving black.

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So by this time the war had begun.

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We decided to go on, we went off

to in downtown Oklahoma City.

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Yeah,

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Speaker: all the stores

that had lunch counters.

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So the next time you went to a different

lunch counter, did you think that

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it was gonna be like cat's four days

or you had, or you, you already kind

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of understood it's, it's not gonna

get, it's not gonna be that easy.

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It's not gonna

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Speaker 2: get any,

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Speaker: it easier.

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So, and because

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that's when people started reacting to us.

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And you have to understand Catch

Drugstore, it was like a hub when people

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came from the east side and on their way

to Nicholas Hills to clean their houses

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and take care of their kids and nurse

their babies, they would have to stop

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and catch drugstore to change the bus.

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So it was a busy location.

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Yeah.

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That's why we selected Cat Drug Store.

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Speaker: It was good for them.

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I mean, it was good for

cats to have customers and

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker: I mean,

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Speaker 2: and, and have us.

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He had a brown people

sack in the back of it.

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So we were on a war and one battle had

one, and we wanted to, we said we would

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not stop until Oklahoma City looked

at all the people in the same light.

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So we kept going and the city

movement lasted here for six years.

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Wow.

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Now, Johnny Brown's was the hardest one.

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I was gonna ask, which one was hardest?

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Oh, Johnny Brown's.

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It was the hardest.

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At the mall or, okay.

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I

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Speaker 4: was gonna say, what is that?

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I, I'm not in Noble Hop.

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Speaker 2: Uh, Johnny Brown's

was the largest department

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store in downtown Oklahoma City.

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They had a restaurant in the,

in, in the basement run by Mr.

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Wade.

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I never forget that name.

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And by this time, the White Citizens

Council, everybody knew her.

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And they would react to us.

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They would spit on us, they'd kick us.

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And one thing I never did understand

how they could talk about us and

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hate us and didn't even know us.

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Mm-hmm.

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Well, in 64

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when it all ended mm-hmm.

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You see they moved here.

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We did not even realize the

impact as children that we had.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Because we were determined.

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I mean, even here in Oklahoma City,

they threw a chimpanzee on it.

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Why me?

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Yeah.

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And my mother said, and I said,

I know my mother's lost her now.

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My mother said, I'm so glad that

they select, you know, the chimpanzee

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on because I won't have to go to

anyone else's home to explain to

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them why their child was selected,

because I know why you was selected.

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Speaker 4: And how many,

how many kids were in

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Speaker 2: hundreds

thousand every Saturday.

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That was our job.

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While other people were looking at kids,

were looking at uh uh, the cartoons.

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We were marching.

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We meet our sons, we sing our songs.

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We get schooled on the passage, non

doubt resistant movement, and how.

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Speaker: It knew.

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Was Mr.

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Wade gone or was?

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No.

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No.

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What?

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What?

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I really dunno.

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I know

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Speaker 2: that I, I

tell you what I do know.

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Okay.

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Ms.

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Brown

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had called my mother and asked to see her

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because we bought Catted, Jenny

Brown, and because everybody bought

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clothes from Jenny Brown's and

furniture and everything, they

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couldn't sit on the furniture.

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But we took pictures of people that

were black people that were shopping.

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It was not a popular thing to

do, so she called it in and

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her mom had this long talk,

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and

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Ms.

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Brown loved mom.

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As a matter of fact,

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mom said that when they

met and they talked.

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They both crack.

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So, you know, and that's when we realized

that segregation is the way of everybody.

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And when she, my mom

told me that when Mrs.

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Brown's husband died, she

never did change the room.

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And she, she said that she

was such a lonely person

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and, and she told that pastor.

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Open up.

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Um,

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Speaker 4: so one of the things

that touches me, like from the very

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beginning of your story was your

mom asking, what do you want to do?

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You know mm-hmm.

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The empowerment that she gave kids.

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Speaker 3: Um,

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Speaker 4: and, and how, you know,

how do you see her legacy like

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that continuing to be in this

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Speaker 2: city?

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That's a good question.

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As I look around Oklahoma City, I

look at the NU number of children

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that participated in the city of me.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: I look at the number of

children that she had opportunity

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to teach, and I think that she

made such an impact on them, that

469

they carried part of her with them.

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They even teach like her.

471

Mm-hmm.

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They said the classrooms like her.

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I mean, I, I didn't realize

the impact that she had on her.

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To me, she was just mama one by one.

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She had got those and she had students

that flew down and brought that family

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down here for the opening of the plaza.

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Speaker: Wow.

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We have to talk about the plaza today.

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We were at a meeting at the Clara Looper.

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The Oklahoma City, uh, building downtown,

but off of what a beautiful building.

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The educational

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Speaker 2: building.

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Speaker: Educational building.

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And we gotta listen to, um, Dr.

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Polk talk about Oklahoma City public

schools and how well they're doing.

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We're she's really committed.

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Um, we gotta speak about Dr.

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Polk earlier.

489

Mm-hmm.

490

And, um, but it still goes on.

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We're still, we we're still fighting.

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Um, and then the, the plaza, which you

can, can tell us about and what that.

493

Has for the future as well.

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Speaker 2: You don't ask much myself.

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Okay.

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I What's

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Speaker 5: your favorite time?

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I dunno.

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Speaker 2: The plaza is a,

500

I'm trying to think what year that was.

501

It was the, an anniversary of

the city movement, the 60th

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anniversary of the city movement.

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Am I right down?

504

And the mayor of Oklahoma City, they

wanted to do something to remember the

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civil rights movement here, because we

did not get the national recognition

506

that the other places in America.

507

Mm-hmm.

508

And I think this is the Maryland, I think

it's because we didn't have the balance

509

that they had another parts United States.

510

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

511

Speaker 2: And we did not have

the balance here in Oklahoma City.

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I think because of the leadership and

the training that the young people have

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and the leadership in the community,

even with the police department,

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they, they knew they were

gonna take us to jail.

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We knew they were gonna take us

to jail, but they did not try to

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hurt us from taking us to jail.

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They didn't turn dogs loose

on us like they did in other

518

parts of the United States.

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I turned water hoses on.

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And one thing I wanna tell you about

the city is every Saturday we go down

521

there, we were dressed like we going

to church in our bets because they're

522

not gonna slave that we would slouch

trying to go in and, but what I want

523

you to understand about this movement.

524

And I say all the time that it

was made up of kids that have not,

525

have, not money, have not, two

parents in the home, have not kids.

526

So then when the doors opened to us, a

lot of us could not walk in and sit down.

527

Speaker: That changed though.

528

It wasn't about money.

529

It wasn't about getting

the hamburger, really.

530

Speaker 2: No.

531

No, it wasn't.

532

It was about democracy.

533

It was about it.

534

See, one thing leads to another, and if

you take away a person's hopes and dreams

535

and aspirations, and I was telling you

that my mom told us about this fish bowl,

536

she said she would tell us all the time,

I don't want you to swim in this big goal.

537

I want to throw you out

so you can swim in the.

538

But when you go out and see a

motion, you have to be prepared.

539

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

540

Speaker 2: And that's the

philosophy with not only her kids,

541

but with kids in the community.

542

Speaker: What did she used to tell them?

543

It's not that they're smarter

than you or that you're not dumb,

544

or what, what, what was that?

545

She

546

Speaker 2: would tell us all, all the

time, no one is smarter than you are.

547

They just out think.

548

Spend some time thinking, concentrating.

549

Mm-hmm.

550

And you can be as smart as any one else.

551

Speaker 5: So the plaza gets built

and dedicated this year on the

552

Speaker: 60th, you've

started the process, right?

553

Yes.

554

Yes.

555

And

556

Speaker 2: they felt that marathon,

we gonna have a, a plaque, but

557

they put together a committee

and John Kennedy and, and couple.

558

They're co-chairman of the committee

and they brought us all in.

559

And I never forget this one day in

particular, we were able to meet

560

each other and each other, John

Kennedy passed a piece of paper.

561

Paper.

562

I said, what in the world, this man?

563

He said, I want you to put

down on here what you would

564

like the present to be like.

565

And that's what we do.

566

And it went and there and I had

the opportunity, everybody had

567

a role to play on this committee

and mine was to make sure that the

568

individual structures were lifelong.

569

And that was my job.

570

And I tried to do it well.

571

We were getting down

572

and um,

573

we went from New York City and we found.

574

People that put together the

575

Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

576

Speaker 2: And

577

it kept making me realize the impact

that the SEE movement every 13.

578

Mm-hmm.

579

And I'm sorry, I just

ran, we're here for it.

580

We did not understand everything,

but uh, the one thing that we

581

did understand was bigotry and

hatred and this, this life for us.

582

And I would ask my mother all the time,

so, mom, how can they hate me so much?

583

And they don't even know my name.

584

She said, you will understand this Ms.

585

Bigotry by back.

586

You don't understand it now but you.

587

I want you to sit down and think

about because you going to grow up

588

with all your life and you going

to have to learn how to deal with

589

you going have to learn

how to love in spite of

590

you're not responsible.

591

For how other people treat

you, but your responsibility

592

is how you treat other people.

593

That's right.

594

I'm not gonna let you or

anybody else take my job.

595

So I'm sorry, I gotta, I

start talking about this.

596

See young people that are involved

sitting in there, just emotional because

597

the kids that were involved are doing

everything across the United States.

598

One guy did brain surgery that, uh,

from Oklahoma City, the first brain

599

surgery of that, that happened down

in United States, they, we had people

600

that have been representative us,

uh, in the legislatures all over.

601

Mm-hmm.

602

Because as one told me, said we could

do anything we dreamed about doing.

603

So that's what we did.

604

And when we had the opening other classes.

605

We had people that worked on the

committee and John decided, and then

606

he knows everybody in Oklahoma City,

but he decided, I guess he knew what

607

we would be good at individually

because that's when we got our salary.

608

So, but he didn't say it like this.

609

He just made you think that you

were just king of the road, right?

610

Yeah.

611

You were doing all this,

but it was his plan.

612

That's what I believe.

613

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

614

Speaker 2: And we got it done and

we just had the opening class not

615

too long ago and it was wonderful.

616

Mm-hmm.

617

It was wonderful.

618

And people came from all over and as I

looked out in that audience, I said, oh

619

my God, I wish that my mother could have

lived to see this baby in the home city.

620

And I felt her presence

as I was talking that day.

621

And it seemed like she

was just staring at me.

622

I, I said, mama talking to my sit down.

623

She say she didn't talk.

624

No, she didn't talk to her.

625

I, I just felt her presence there.

626

Mm-hmm.

627

And I felt that her love there

that she had for so many people

628

and the changes that she wanted

to see in Oklahoma City, I.

629

I was saying, your dreams of

becoming a reality mom, smile.

630

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

631

Speaker 2: And you know, if you think

about that day, it started raining in

632

the beginning and it was cold and stuff.

633

And then all the, once the sun

started down, I said, that's nothing.

634

But Lord,

635

Speaker: the music was great that so many

people, how many people said about that?

636

I don't know.

637

I read what some

638

Speaker 2: people said it was 5,000.

639

Wow.

640

And it people all the way down to Reno

and turn the corner and move down by

641

Selma Mova and turn in the corner.

642

I don't know.

643

It's a lot of people know.

644

Speaker 4: Well, and I would say I

didn't get to go to that, but I did.

645

I, I run in the early mornings and

I didn't know it was set up yet.

646

And so I was running with

one of my friends and we ran

647

past it, and I, I got chills.

648

I had no idea what it was gonna be like.

649

And I was just overwhelmed that we

had not only just like this beautiful

650

statue, but kind of what it stood for.

651

Mm-hmm.

652

And that it was in such a

prominent place in our community.

653

Um, and so I'm grateful.

654

And you said your mom's, you know, goal.

655

I, I feel like it was you or, I mean,

you were, it was part of your, the

656

work too that got there, you know?

657

And so that, I mean.

658

That's incredible and I'm

grateful that art like that

659

leads on lives on in the city.

660

They can continue to share

that story with us all.

661

Speaker 2: Yes.

662

Thank you very much.

663

I, uh, I'm glad that I was allowed

the opportunity that God gave me the

664

opportunity to be one of the participants

665

because I didn't have to

666

Speaker 3: do that

667

Speaker 2: and I didn't have to be there

then, and I didn't have to do that.

668

And then when I was, I got a call

that said that, that someone had

669

tried to damage the structures that

670

Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

671

Speaker 2: I was telling

you and asked me how.

672

Mm-hmm.

673

And I told them the truth.

674

I felt like someone had taken

life and put it in my heart.

675

That's how I.

676

Doctor,

677

Speaker 5: that was my reaction.

678

Mm-hmm.

679

Speaker 2: I didn't cry,

I didn't do anything.

680

But a lot of times I realized in my

life that some things were really

681

serious and bad and seemed like I

can't have an immediate answer to it.

682

I just go to sleep and God

seems like he gives me acid.

683

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

684

Speaker 2: And I went to

sleep, and when I woke up.

685

I said, what's next?

686

We've been to the storm and the tornadoes.

687

We've been through the fire bombs, we've

been through Freedoms Center of Burning.

688

We've been to all this.

689

What's next?

690

We have

691

on Mm, I not gonna take

my joint in in democracy.

692

And my belief in people, because I

saw, as I stood up there and spoke,

693

I saw people of all different walks

of life, all different colors, shades

694

and gray, all different things.

695

And I said, this is what

democracy is really about.

696

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

697

I just have a question

about the 10-year-old girl.

698

Um.

699

I mean, I'm sure that going through, I

mean, all those different experiences,

700

all the different counters, all

the different restaurants, um, the

701

places, did you have this strong

sense of fear when you were doing it?

702

Or was it a, a different sense

of like, um, with people that are

703

doing it together, what, what would

does a 10-year-old feel like that?

704

And thinking about other 10 year olds

these days, and I mean, that's very brave.

705

Speaker 2: What were you feeling?

706

We didn't think we was great.

707

We just had, we knew we had a job to do.

708

Mm-hmm.

709

It was like every real, felt like somebody

sent you on a mission and I felt that

710

this was our mission to change things.

711

I, I don't know if we had enough sense

to be scared at 10 years old, but I tell

712

you, we had incidents that I, when I had

the opportunity to speak on my funeral.

713

How I, how I put things back in

my mind because of some things you

714

don't want to deal with, some things

in life you don't want to remember.

715

Mm-hmm.

716

Speaker 3: And I can

717

Speaker 2: better understand

what happened over in Tulsa,

718

why they don't want to remember.

719

Mm-hmm.

720

And I can remember coming home

from a, a mass meeting of freedom.

721

Some guys, some white guys, two

white guys in a pickup truck

722

with the gun right behind me.

723

Mm-hmm.

724

Were following us.

725

And my mother said, now I'm not

gonna take, we are not going home.

726

I'm not gonna take you home 'cause I

don't want anything to happen to you.

727

But what I'm going to do, I'm gonna

take you of the Weldon Poses house.

728

His daughter was on the spoke

people for the youth council.

729

And when I turned this corner on

Northeast 14th and it was 14th and

730

there, I want you to jump out of the car.

731

I'm gonna drive up on their grass.

732

I want you to jump on the car and I

want you to holler and spear as loud as

733

you can and I will be blowing the horn.

734

I said, ma, I'm not gonna

leave you to go by yourself.

735

My mother said to me, you

gonna do exactly what I told.

736

And we were close to it.

737

We turned that corner on 14th and she

turned on two wheel and drove up in the

738

yard, close to the porch as you could

get, and Kevin and I ran up there and we

739

were just knocking, hollering the street,

740

and Mr.

741

Posey answered the door and I

saw, saw my mother drive away.

742

And at that time, that's one

of the few times in my life

743

I've ever known what fear was.

744

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

745

Speaker 2: I was asked, uh, I

said, will I ever see my mother do?

746

And to this day she died.

747

She never mentioned that,

748

but she came back to us.

749

Uh,

750

Speaker: presence.

751

We keep going away from the, the

sit-in the, the, and you, you talked

752

about the damage that was done,

the, at the plaza, it's being fixed.

753

Mm-hmm.

754

Correct?

755

Speaker 2: Yes.

756

Speaker: Yes.

757

Speaker 2: It is being fixed.

758

It's just like a broken heart.

759

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

760

That

761

Speaker 2: it's being fixed.

762

And I just think the Oklahoma

City community and the leadership

763

of the Plaza community, because.

764

We had people from other organizations

to call to see what they could do

765

to have it repair, because it is

not my history that's down there.

766

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

767

Speaker 2: It's the history of the city.

768

Mm-hmm.

769

And it is the history of this city

that should be a proud experie.

770

Mm-hmm.

771

Because I'm so glad that we sat down here

in Oklahoma City because when we sat down

772

here in Oklahoma City, young people from

all over this nation started standing up.

773

Speaker: Your movement.

774

Speaker 5: That's

775

Speaker: the movement.

776

Speaker 5: That's the movement.

777

Speaker: Well, the work

still goes on today.

778

Speaker 5: Yes.

779

Speaker: Um, we were talking earlier

about, I picked you up from the meeting

780

and, uh, we talked about how much we don't

like when meetings just meet and there's

781

no action, because clearly today there

are some things to be concerned about.

782

Um.

783

You, we talked about disability

and those kind of still moving

784

to try to find inclusion or

how we can get jobs and wages.

785

Tell me what I mean,

the, the plazas there.

786

What, what do you think that gives us

for some of the things that are coming?

787

Hope, it gives us hope

788

Speaker 2: because you see that

in a place like Oklahoma City.

789

You have to understand that my

mother's mother moved to the certain

790

quarters of, in order to educate her

791

and to see the plaza down

there from young, my mother was

792

from a Fuke county hopping up

Oklahoma, where they had nothing.

793

The textbooks they, they used in our

classroom were torn in half from where the

794

white kids had, they had 'em in the school

and didn't want to read 'em anymore.

795

But I was told that thank God they

gave, they gave us textbook because

796

we could write our own story.

797

So I look at everything as hope, but

then, you know, at the meeting today.

798

And see that our president of the

United States wants to say that no

799

more Martin Luther King holiday.

800

Speaker 3: No

801

Speaker 2: more Juneteenth celebration.

802

No more in the textbooks of this country.

803

When we tell your story, because

our story's not important, that's

804

what gives us the courage to keep

on fighting, because if we don't

805

tell our story, we gonna tell.

806

Speaker 4: Absolutely.

807

Speaker 2: Yeah.

808

Speaker 4: I honestly, I do hope the city

public like schools, I hope them take

809

field trips, you know, to not only see

the monument, but like the, we should

810

tell that story every year in schools,

811

Speaker 5: you

812

Speaker 4: know, like, I know.

813

I don't know if they're gonna do that.

814

Do you know if I'm gonna follow, I'm

gonna follow up with the district

815

because I do think that's such an

important story and it's such a

816

connecting connection to the district

and you know, it's our responsibility

817

to ensure that that story continues.

818

Speaker 2: We go to a lot of schools here.

819

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

820

Speaker 2: Not we tell the story.

821

That's what our job is, the people

that have been involved in the,

822

Speaker: because if we

823

Speaker 2: don't tell our story, we bump

824

Speaker: the detail on the monument,

the buttons on the back of the address.

825

Oh, I love those glasses,

those cat eye glasses of yours

826

and just the detail itself.

827

It's so well done.

828

That gives it, um, even more of

a, like a statement and that it

829

is important, it's beautiful, and

that, uh, it should be remembered.

830

I love it that the arts, so I think

that would be great that kids get there.

831

Yeah.

832

But the detail, uh, you know,

tell people to go up and just

833

look at how, how beautiful it is.

834

And that was your eye,

I guess, too, your job.

835

On the counter.

836

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

837

Speaker 2: Where the seats are,

there's an empty, empty seat.

838

Oh

839

Speaker 3: yeah.

840

Speaker 2: So we left one empty because

we wanted a young person, a old person.

841

We wanted a person to be able

to go there and sit down so

842

they could feel what we felt.

843

Mm-hmm.

844

Is it complete?

845

Now?

846

Is No, no, no.

847

What still is left?

848

That has to be put in the.

849

Our facts in writing to tell our story.

850

But see, don't tell you in

this life, you run out of town.

851

And I, I'm a person that believes it.

852

A lot of the kids that were

18 years old, they old now.

853

They're old.

854

Old.

855

And we had to start that off.

856

But God has been good to us.

857

There was 13 of us and now it is

858

10 up.

859

Wow.

860

So we had to go on and kept changing

the dates, said, no, we gonna do it.

861

We have, so that they would be able to.

862

That's great.

863

Speaker: So, so what's next for you

besides making sure that Juneteenth

864

is celebrated and um, and we all get

to celebrate Martin Luther King Day?

865

Speaker 2: Well, what's next to me is very

866

Speaker: important that we vote.

867

Speaker 2: There we go.

868

Absolutely.

869

We have to vote and teach

our children to vote.

870

And every year that during the, during any

type of election, the Legacy Committee is

871

responsible for contacting 5,000 people

to make sure that they get out to vote,

872

and we are going to continue to register

people to vote and to make sure that they

873

get out to vote even if we, we going to

do like we used to do when we were kids.

874

Not only were we sitting in,

we were getting people out

875

to vote, going door to door.

876

Now do you need us to take

you to the poll or what?

877

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

878

Because you

879

Speaker 2: need to vote.

880

Every vote is important and we

cannot change what's going on

881

in the United States right now

unless you get out and vote.

882

Every vote counts.

883

Speaker: Every vote counts.

884

Absolutely.

885

I, uh, spoke to a someone who

ran for, um, office and didn't

886

win, uh, last, uh, last year.

887

And he said that he saw some people at

a Walgreens or something and they said,

888

thank you so much for giving us a choice.

889

So we know that there are,

you know, statewide races are

890

hard to, you know, to win.

891

Uh, there we know that there's a lot

of rural towns that it's hard to win,

892

but there are people stepping up to be.

893

To be on the ballot so that

people can have a choice.

894

Mm-hmm.

895

Which may help us too, to, well,

whoever to get people to vote and see.

896

Lemme tell you

897

Speaker 2: something else.

898

Even our elected officials have

got to step up to the plate.

899

I am so ashamed mm-hmm.

900

Of a lot of things going on in this

country, and it's only because the

901

good people are remaining silent.

902

Mm-hmm.

903

Then

904

corruption.

905

Bitterness, hatred, prejudice, bold.

906

This country, and this is

country's built on a democracy.

907

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

908

Speaker 2: We have no kings in this

country, and they have a responsibility

909

to not just represent the people there in

their area, but to represent all people.

910

Speaker 5: Our goal should

be the greater good for

911

Speaker: us.

912

That's it for all.

913

So is there anything else you wanna

tell us that we haven't heard, or

914

something that's caught in there

that you wanna get out about the

915

people that you sat in with or?

916

Speaker 2: I have a lot of

respect for the young people that

917

sat in because it wasn't easy.

918

A lot of their parents

didn't want them to sit in.

919

A lot of people laughed at us, made

fun of us because we was going to jail.

920

And we are going to jail for

everybody, not for ourselves.

921

I have respect for the people that looked

at the injustices and said, this is wrong.

922

You as a nation cannot continue like this.

923

But Ellen and Ellen, what I think,

and I go to my gravestone that

924

the good people in this country.

925

Can no longer afford to just sit back

and we know somebody else to do it.

926

We are gonna have to stand up and do

it themselves one by one or two by two.

927

You're gonna have to stand up.

928

Speaker 4: I'm here for it.

929

And I'm here.

930

I'm so grateful for this conversation.

931

Thank you.

932

Thank you so much.

933

Speaker: We do ask our

guests to ask us a question.

934

Do you have a question for the Ellens?

935

Speaker 2: Oh, I have

936

Speaker: many questions

937

Speaker 2: here.

938

If you could change anything right now

939

with our leadership in the House

of Representatives, what would you

940

do to make Oklahoma a better state?

941

Speaker: Something that we would

change in the leadership and how

942

we work in the house or just, uh,

leadership, um, and how you work.

943

How we work.

944

You know, I think that there, um.

945

There, there's some struggles

being the, in a super minority.

946

Um, I mean, you, you just had

your first year, last time.

947

What would you think?

948

Um,

949

Speaker 4: oh my gosh.

950

I mean, the one thing I tell

people all the time is, man, I

951

don't think that you want people.

952

You don't want votes where

people aren't accountable.

953

But sometimes I feel like if we actually

voted and people didn't know how we

954

voted, and that's because people aren't

brave enough to vote their conscience.

955

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

956

Speaker 4: I think if people voted

the way they feel and they knew

957

what was right, outcomes would look

different in our state legislature.

958

And instead we vote, not we, but like

there's votes that are taken because.

959

They are fearful that someone will

run against them or they don't have

960

the courage to say enough is enough.

961

Mm-hmm.

962

And I wish that we had an ability

to provide everyone with enough

963

courage to vote their conscience.

964

Um, because I think right now politics

is money and it's not about people.

965

So I don't, that's what I would

966

Speaker: change if there was

something I could change on the floor.

967

Mm-hmm.

968

I would think that.

969

Giving us a chance to ask more questions.

970

Mm-hmm.

971

Um, there's rules.

972

There's a lot of rules because of people

who had served before that, the majority

973

says, we're not gonna do that again.

974

And so one thing that we're always held

to is, is one question and one follow up.

975

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

976

Speaker: And then they'll close the queue.

977

Mm-hmm.

978

Even if you have questions and being

on, even though we have committee

979

meetings and they've gotten.

980

Better.

981

I would say that, we'll, that

this last year was, it was better.

982

We had more committee meetings.

983

We had a lot more legislation to hear

and ask questions to, 'cause we had

984

a double elimination kind of thing.

985

But on the floor, that's usually where a

lot of the press are or that people can

986

watch from the gallery so they can hear

the questions and see if the author can

987

answer those, those, those questions.

988

I, I think that's the, the, the job of

the minority is to question, we have to

989

be the ones to, um, figure out what the

goal is of that legislation out loud.

990

And so I wish that we were

able, that's, it seems small,

991

but it, it wouldn't happen.

992

No,

993

Speaker 4: it wouldn't.

994

I have one more thing I would add.

995

Okay.

996

So the, yes, but the change I

would add is that we are one of few

997

states that does not allow public

comment during committee meetings.

998

Speaker 6: Mm.

999

Speaker 4: And so when a bill is up.

00:53:19,185 --> 00:53:24,464

The only questions that you can have

as a legislator is from you know us.

00:53:24,555 --> 00:53:27,975

And that doesn't mean I'm an expert and

that doesn't mean I tell your story.

00:53:28,035 --> 00:53:28,154

Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.

00:53:28,515 --> 00:53:32,415

Speaker 4: And so many states allow the

opportunity for constituents to share

00:53:32,415 --> 00:53:34,035

a story, even fixed three minutes.

00:53:34,305 --> 00:53:38,865

Or share why that bill would either

positively or negatively impact them.

00:53:38,924 --> 00:53:41,654

And we have removed

people from the process.

00:53:41,714 --> 00:53:44,714

And so I would bring

people back into, yeah,

00:53:44,865 --> 00:53:45,404

Speaker 5: back into it.

00:53:45,404 --> 00:53:45,464

So

00:53:46,095 --> 00:53:47,355

Speaker: it's up to the chair.

00:53:47,535 --> 00:53:50,685

Sometimes there is, but we know

that it's not a hard and fast rule.

00:53:50,714 --> 00:53:53,685

It's not a standard that we

practice, but, but the, um, Senate,

00:53:53,805 --> 00:53:57,884

uh, Democrats started something

which was a public comment mm-hmm.

00:53:58,125 --> 00:53:59,024

Sort of place.

00:53:59,024 --> 00:54:03,315

And over the summer we talked about

education and budget and policy ideas.

00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,700

When you hear from people, and we

stayed up very late listening to

00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:11,040

people for they had three minutes.

00:54:11,069 --> 00:54:11,160

Mm-hmm.

00:54:11,580 --> 00:54:15,299

To tell what they wanted to say or what

they wanted to change, or a question

00:54:15,299 --> 00:54:17,490

they had or whatever their statement.

00:54:17,819 --> 00:54:22,049

It was hard to hear how a lot of people

are, they drove from all over the state.

00:54:22,049 --> 00:54:22,350

Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.

00:54:22,650 --> 00:54:23,970

Speaker: To be in person.

00:54:24,270 --> 00:54:27,900

The sad thing is it there wasn't,

um, there wasn't a showing on

00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:29,670

the other, on the majority.

00:54:30,225 --> 00:54:33,805

But, um, and it wasn't taped or I

don't think there's any record of it.

00:54:35,145 --> 00:54:40,245

But those people left understanding

what democracy means, you know, and gave

00:54:40,245 --> 00:54:45,285

them back in their small towns, even

that idea that they could make a change.

00:54:45,464 --> 00:54:45,555

Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:54:45,584 --> 00:54:47,055

Speaker: So it gave 'em some hope.

00:54:47,145 --> 00:54:47,654

Gave some hope.

00:54:47,859 --> 00:54:48,060

Absolutely.

00:54:48,225 --> 00:54:48,915

Absolutely.

00:54:48,915 --> 00:54:53,115

So I think we're working a little

bit towards some changes, but

00:54:53,355 --> 00:54:54,944

attitudes are the hardest to change.

00:54:54,975 --> 00:54:55,154

Mm-hmm.

00:54:55,395 --> 00:54:58,725

And fear drives a lot of

this stuff that we are.

00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:00,640

Constantly on the defensive.

00:55:00,850 --> 00:55:00,940

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

00:55:01,450 --> 00:55:05,770

Speaker: Um, but hope that we don't take

away anyone's vote these next session,

00:55:05,770 --> 00:55:10,690

but it's, it's, it's become something

that you have to look out for and so

00:55:10,690 --> 00:55:12,100

we're hoping to hang out the votes.

00:55:12,550 --> 00:55:13,690

Speaker 4: Thank you so much for Thank

00:55:13,690 --> 00:55:14,770

Speaker: you so much today.

00:55:15,490 --> 00:55:16,240

Appreciate it.

00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:17,470

Speaker 4: You'll invite you back.

00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:18,280

We'll,

00:55:18,850 --> 00:55:19,090

Speaker: thank

00:55:19,090 --> 00:55:20,740

Speaker 4: you so much for joining.