This week's guest is Erik Morrison. They are one of the DMs for NPC Incorporated, an actual play collective that runs campaigns, one shots, offers DM advice, and more. Among the games Eric has ran for NPC Incorporated is Donna Avanzi’s Deception, a no magic D&D two-part mini-series in the world of Scott Lynch's Lies of Locke Lamora. 

Given my own background as a musical theatre performer and stand-up comedian, my conversation with Erik focused first on the similarities and differences between Actual Play and Improv comedy, the difficulties of comparing yourself to full-time creatives with funded productions, and when narrative can supersede mechanics.

You can find Erik on Instagram, Twitter, and Tiktok at @ErikMoreover; and on Bluesky as @ErikMorrison. You can also see them live in Chicago, where they produce ⁠Thirst For Adventure⁠, a live-action, rules-light D&D show with a rotating cast of improv comedians.

[00:00:11] Erik: Hello! I'm doing great.

[00:00:26] Among the games Eric has ran for NPC Incorporated is Donna Avanzi’s Deception, a no magic D&D mini-series in the world of Scott Lynch's Lies of Locke Lamora, which was a beautiful setting choice.

[00:00:47] So I've been running a magic light system with Hobart in a couple home games. I was like, I know exactly the setting that I would want to have a low fantasy kind of vibe. So much fun to, to play with the... The tropes of the Locke Lamora series.

[00:01:09] Erik: For the show, the network has done, or NPC Incorporated has done a lot of live streams, and a lot of them have very goofy lay ons, or some very fantastical sort of work to them, and when Hover reached out to me, it was like, let's take a break from the magic for a little bit.

[00:01:46] So you don't have to worry about spell slots, et cetera, et cetera. It's a very practical concern, but I also think it's very uncommon currently to do, no magic stuff, and no magic stuff that's not Game of Thrones.

Erik: Exactly. Game of Thrones obviously has magic, but grimdark stuff is ugh. I would very much prefer a world with hope as opposed to a world without, generally speaking, but having that sort of political aspect, I think, comes forward a lot more in historical or no/low magic settings.

[00:02:48] Erik: Yeah. Also, as one last reason, which is just occurring to me, that I really enjoyed, it wasn't intentional at all, but one that I really enjoyed is that I think in 5th edition, specifically the Magic users get a lot of the screen time. I think it's very flashy to have spells, and I think there are some of the classes, Fighter, is, I feel like very rarely do I give people the option to choose what class they're going to be, and they choose Fighter, just without hesitating. And so it was my chance to go actually, this can be super fun if you... If you just get a little silly with it.

[00:03:33] Erik: Yeah fighter does not equal boring. And I think that was part of the thesis for that one shot, was like, you can have an over the top very flashy and stylish role playing experience and not include magic.

[00:03:52] Erik: Thank you.

[00:03:59] Erik: I started to run games because no one else wanted to which is, I'm sure, common.

Rowan: A tale as old as time.

Rowan: It's honesty. It's self reflection.

Erik: Thank you. Thank you. But like being able to have the have all the spreadsheets in front of me and know everything and Be at the helm of the ship is very fun for me And then I also think I did I do a fair amount of like comedy in Chicago And I think the running Sort of running an improv scene thing feels very natural to me and that's very natural to whether you're a player or a GM but I think being able to do like multiple fun characters in one session is very much up my alley and I think above it all like the storytelling of it all and the getting to pull the story out of multiple of my friends or fellow cast members is very fun like Sort of setting them up, teeing them up to have a cool moment, or asking them a follow up question about what flavor they want to add to a move, or like why their character is the way it is, I think is a very sort of theater director thing, and that's So fun.

[00:05:35] Rowan: So you say you do improv in Chicago. Have you, how long have you been doing improv for, and how, did you start doing TTRPGs prior to improv, or after improv?

[00:05:51] Because I was in a sort of short lived campaign in high school. But being into it the way that I am now started after I was actually after I was burned out of improv I think TTRPGs came in to fill the gap in a way and I mean I've been doing improv. I moved to Chicago to do improv to do comedy in 2014

Rowan: Oh, so you're a bit of a vet in the Chicago scene.

[00:06:39] And the improv scene went away in a wisp of smoke in Chicago in a way. It's only just now starting to be back in a way where putting on comedy shows is or going to comedy shows even regularly is very normal again. And like I said, I think TTRBG's filled in that gap for me.

[00:07:11] Rowan:And then you just stuck there.

Rowan: Find the game, as they say.

Erik: And being able to ride the lightning, so to speak, of a shared storytelling experience is like, those, these are the only two things that have felt like this to me. And they feel exactly the same. Absolutely. And it's it almost doesn't feel like two separate things.

[00:08:02] Rowan: Yeah coming from the stand up scene in New York, I deeply understand.

[00:08:28] I think even more so Has a reputation for that and it's the same way in Chicago, too I that was one of the things that burnt that burned me out of improv was that like I was shocked and appalled to discover that the improv scene in Chicago was like was competitive like we were competing to be teachers pets and The favorite and to be on a Herald team at IO and like exhausting.

[00:09:06] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So as far as I understand it I'm like. DM for hire, do the live streams kind of thing for NPC Incorporated. They have a fantastic actual play podcast that's a regular show that I am a sort of guest cast member on, not regular. But, knowing all of them very well through comedy, NPC Incorporated absolutely exists because all of us stopped doing Improve at the same time, or traded a little bit of that joy for a more...

[00:09:48] Like I am not being funny anymore. Everything's bad. And the teacher went, so do you do anything outside of improv? And he went, no. And so it's just improv feeding improv.

[00:10:03] Rowan: But then when you go into TTRPGs, I feel like that doesn't quite apply.

[00:10:16] Erik: I think there is a... I'm like rolling my eyes a little bit at some of the improv books that I read when I was just starting out, where it's like, trying to treat it as this high art form that's like improv for improv's sake and I'm like, you gotta be kidding yourself, like people are eating chicken tenders and drinking rum and cokes in your audience laughing at you calling it art, and I believe in it as like a performance style. I am a performer and I'm like, improv is great, but it's also not like the Mona Lisa. And that being said, I think there's a part of improv that's very much about the performance and very much about being polished and being, like, a professional in some ways, even if you never get paid for it. On the other side a TTRPG kind of demands less of you. It demands it demands more of you as a holistic person, maybe, but it doesn't demand that you have I don't know a relevant life experience.

[00:11:37] Dependent on people laughing, like it doesn't have to be funny. It doesn't have to be good It just has to be good for you.

[00:11:47] Erik: Yeah. Yeah, and That's the secret to good improv though, is the thing.

Rowan: Oh my god, you have to enjoy yourself?

Erik: I know. But, on the main topic of the interview like I feel like that is one huge difference between a home game and a and an actual play and something that I try really hard to manage expectations about, we, we are here to have fun and I think it's so easy for the performance to get in the way on an actual play thing, and Critical Role Dimension 20, whatever you watch I think there's so much emphasis on preparation and production value and these people are professional voice actors, and there's so much that's especially for someone who's new to a game, or new to actual plays they're so worried about looking good, on an actual play stage. So that is one thing that, that is, you don't tend to have to remind people about in a home game, but it is really important, I think, DMing. An actual play is let's all take a breath I'm gonna make mistakes, you're gonna make mistakes, it's fine. Forget the cameras are there, kind of thing.

[00:12:58] Rowan: No, I love that. And that actually leads me into the next proper question that I have is In the context of an actual play, that is the role of the GM. What do you think is the role of the GM? Is it just to make sure and facilitate this space? Or is it to be a good scene partner, is it to be a storyteller guiding everyone, is it to be reactive?

[00:13:24] Erik: I think the actual play scenario is much more is much more sort of MC and maybe a little bit more directive than a home game would be. Just so that you are setting everyone else up. To look good, I am much more conscious of being a good scene partner as a GM when I'm doing an actual play. Mostly, again, because I want the performers to feel comfortable because when they feel comfortable, it'll be a good show. Kind of thing. What

[00:13:58] Erik: during an actual play?

[00:14:25] Maybe it's also because I've almost exclusively DM'ed one shots and two shots, too. Is that I don't necessarily have the experience of doing an actual play over a long period of time, so I don't have that reassurance that it'll all come out in the wash. So I'm like, I'm much more cognizant of we have one shot at this, and it's my job to give you things to react to, give you things to describe, give you things to...

[00:15:33] Rowan: making it a little more explosive than it might be.

[00:15:54] Rowan: something that I very much noticed in the episode is that you gave a lot of space for your players to explore and be the center of attention.

[00:16:23] Erik: sometimes?

[00:16:51] That's, that is a I feel like that's even a low bar, like I would prefer to be way less than that, I'd prefer to be 30 or even 25 in an ideal world, but I feel like I'm like getting there, I also think over time I've become more confident in just throwing away rules that make combat go longer.

[00:17:34] Rowan: Could you be a little specific there about what things you mentioned collapsing initiative order, do you even this might be a contentious point for people, but do you fudge roles to

[00:17:48] There it is. I love that. I don't think it's, I don't think it's right to to lie in that scenario. And I also think if you play tabletop RPGs for your entire life and you've never fudged a role, then come on. You're lying. Yeah, exactly. I will say I don't fudge roles as much as I don't necessarily have a DC, always.

[00:18:35] Where we go, like the dice for me in that sense feel much more like a Release valve or something like it feels like it's a regulator on the flow of the story maybe even also a an Indicator or like a tool to be able to tell how everyone is feeling you're gonna get the biggest Reactions to dice rolls not things you DM.

[00:19:24] If they roll a, one through five, I don't have anywhere close to this mapped out in my brain, so I'm just spitting this out, but if they roll a one through five and everyone is like, Oh no, and everyone's like on the edge of their seats, I might be more likely to make that an actually bad consequence versus if they're like rolling a one and then they get really quiet, and it's Oh no, this really cool thing that I had planned to do.

[00:20:22] Rowan: say during a home game that you play more by the rules than you do during an actual play?

[00:20:46] We're all castmates in a way, and so I'm just like I am more allowing it to follow the fun, maybe, versus a home game, where I may have more personal stake in how the world goes, or what have you. I think I'm, as much as I have just talked about, being woo with the rules I also love crunchy game.

[00:21:25] Rowan: you're at a home game. Exactly. As opposed to for

[00:21:27] Yeah. So I feel like I'm harnessing some skills for an actual play that I don't have to for a home game. Or I don't feel, I don't feel maybe the pressure to. And I, who knows whether that's good or bad but that's where I feel like I land on.

[00:21:47] I think it's just your style. I think it makes a lot of sense. In terms of that preparation and that sort of collaboration, when you're home, when you're DMing a home game, that world is very much yours, like you've created it and you're presenting it to your players. In an actual play, like when you're doing a session zero for an actual play versus a home game, is there more of a collaborative element of world building with the characters, or is it, or what is the difference between the two?

[00:22:56] Now, that being said, would love to have more actual plays with actual Session Zeros, like a dress rehearsal. Would be amazing, but again, like obviously that's not gonna work out every time and I feel like it ends up being I guess it ends up being more by the seat of one's pants a little bit, which is going into talking about this.

[00:23:38] Rowan: exactly why I wanted to do this series and talk to as many people as i'm doing because their actual play there's such a range of actual plays from like the high production value critical roles to like the We're all getting together in our free time because we're comedians and we want to play a game and make something together there's so much range there And I think it makes a lot of sense for you to feel this kind of need to like, Alright, we have to crunch it down and I trust these people as performers to be able to interact with this world.

[00:24:13] Versus I think a home game is like by definition going to be like a lot more precious, like it's going to be. Everyone has a character that they are maybe a little bit more emotionally attached to or obviously that can be true of an actual play too, but especially if you're doing a homebrew setting and you're playing for a real long time together and all that stuff, like that is obviously going to end up having more preparation in that, like everyone's just more invested in it or more, maybe a little more vulnerable, or maybe a little bit allowing themselves to spend the time to sink into

[00:25:04] Kind of wrapping up this conversation, bringing us to the end, I want to ask if you have any pieces of advice for people who want to become DMs or want to move from being DMs and moving into the actual playspace.

[00:25:22] That. That has served me very well. I have a lot of friends in a lot of different contexts who I play role playing games with, and I think when you are like, genuinely a good person to work with and a good person to hang out with and stuff people will want you to GM for them. And I think, especially if, you're bringing more of yourself to the table and you're being like, emotionally honest with people and being vulnerable with people, etc.

[00:26:13] social, it's that clout sucks. And that's my hot take. That's my hottest stand up joke for the evening.

[00:26:20] Erik: Thank you. You know what, though? I met you through Blue Sky, so that's awesome.

[00:26:29] Erik: that's really it. It's the authenticity.

[00:26:53] And I don't think I've really ever had, I'm very lucky in this, in that I don't think I've ever had. A very bad GM, but also that's because I have almost exclusively played with people that I was good friends with beforehand. So if you are playing with your friends, and you're nice, it's hard to be really bad at it.

[00:27:33] That was really beautiful.

[00:27:48] Erik: Anything you want to plug? Yes, absolutely. If you are in the Chicago area the MPC incorporated folks are. Putting together a Dungeons Dragons live show called Thirst for Adventure. It's going to be at Lincoln Lodge in Chicago on September 12th. We have an event, right? We have all those things.

[00:28:25] It's every we have the first show lined up. But the idea is every new show is a different. Thank D& D adventure. It's all people who don't necessarily always play TTRPGs. It's abbreviated fifth edition rule. It's very easy to understand. We're going to have like character cards on the table so the audience can follow along.

[00:29:00] I'm at Eric E R I K moreover like the very pedantic word Eric moreover on pretty much everything. And I think that about does it. Yeah. Thirst for adventure. Eric moreover, that's right behind me. Amazing.

[00:29:17] Erik: Yeah, absolutely.