The podcast dives into the essential theme of communication in relationships, particularly when facing a cancer diagnosis.

Host Rachel and her guests, Doug, Barbara, Max, and Charlie, share their experiences and insights about how cancer impacts partnerships.

They emphasise that strong relationships can remain resilient despite the challenges posed by illness.

Open dialogue is highlighted as crucial, with couples discussing their strategies for supporting one another and navigating difficult conversations.

Listeners are encouraged to reach out for support and not to bottle up their feelings, reinforcing the idea that relationships are tested, but can also grow stronger through adversity.

Do you talk a lot? I mean.

Oh, never stop. Imagine you can't shut him up.

Oh, okay, okay.

I was going down the lines of, you know, open communication. Obviously that's not a problem for you and Doug.

We don't have a problem. As she probably said earlier on, we. We tend to finish each other's sentences as well.

Hello and welcome to Breathe Strong. My name is Rachel and I'm your host for this podcast. I'm glad to say that I'm joined in the studio today by Charlie.

Hello.

Max. Hey, Doug.

Hello.

And Barbara.

Hi.

Now, you might notice that we've got a slightly different lineup today and all will be clear shortly. Just before we start, I just want to let you all know that you can contact us at breathestrongnow.

So we would like to hear from you, your thoughts, your own experiences, any questions you have, any topics you may have.

So you can email me rachel@breathestrongassag.co.uk and hassag is H-A-We'd really like to hear from you because we want to try and build a community of patients or people living with cancer and their family members to bring you all together.

You can also watch us on YouTube, so if you want to actually see what we all look like and the shenanigans in the studio, you can tune in and watch us on YouTube. So our last episode, we talked about relationships. We looked at the different scope of relationships, how they affect all parts of our lives.

And so today's podcast, we're going to talk about couples and relationships. Hence the reason we have Doug and Barbara and Charlie and Max.

So just to kick us off, thanks very much for agreeing to come in and be brave enough to talk about relationships with both couples in the room. We'll see how this goes as we get on.

So first of all, on our other podcast, we talked about the impact of having a cancer diagnosis on a relationship. And it was really interesting to hear our podcasters experiences about that.

But I'd be really interested to hear about how it's been as a couple, because you come as a package. So how has it been as a couple having a diagnosis of lung cancer and mesothelioma? I don't know who wants to start and talk about that, but Max, sure.

As a team, Batman and Robin, as we call ourselves, yes, it was a shock, but we tackled it head on, didn't we? Very much. With our mindsets, we're very much of, what's the problem? How are we going to overcome it? And together, as a team.

We massively did that, didn't we? Yeah. I just don't know what.

Still doing it?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But I think lots of people compliment us on how we work together as a team.

You know, if I forget something, Charlie will pick it up or whatever and vice versa. But certainly when it comes from the cancer side of things, I've always been to Charlie's oncology appointments. I never miss one.

And the reason for that one is for my own mental health to actually see what's going on with the treatment, et cetera. But also, there may be questions that I want to ask, and maybe Charlie may forget something to ask the oncology team or even the actual med team.

But like I said in my last podcast, it's a team effort, and we are very much in that ilk, aren't we, of supporting each other and tackling hurdles and getting on with it, really? Yeah.

And I think you hit the nail on the head in the last podcast when we were talking about this, that it's not just me that's going through this. It's very much both of us. And we've got slightly different parts on this journey, but it doesn't just affect one of us.

It definitely affects both of us and. And our wider circle of friends, family, etc. But, like, you know exactly what's going on when it's going on.

The scanxiety affects both of us that, you know it well. As I say, it's not just one of us. It's both of us on this. And it's. Yeah.

I think we're really lucky that we have such a strong relationship and we've always had such a strong relationship. So this is a different test that's come along. But, you know, we've.

Because of work, we've lived in two separate countries for a couple of years at a time. And that, you know, kind of a believer in what happened before has prepared you for where you are now. And that's where I go.

It isn't cancer that's bonded us. We were bonded already. But this is the ultimate test of how strong that bond is.

I thought. I thought Covid was going to be that test, but Covid, we actually enjoyed.

Covid did break up a lot of relationships.

It certainly did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And.

And Doug and Barbara, can I just ask a personal question? How long have you been together?

How long?

Just for 57 years this year. 57 years.

Wow.

Well, congratulations, Barbara, on managing that.

I tell you what, I think I need a medal. Yeah.

So just thinking, you know, that length of time being together.

If you had to give another couple, say somebody was just diagnosed with cancer, be it lung cancer or mesothelioma cancer, what would your hints and tips be? Having or continuing to live through this journey? Barbara, what would you say to the partner?

To the partner, You've got to think positive all the time and give as much support as you can. But because we've been married so long, I mean, we finish each other's sentences. We've joined at the hip, really.

Yeah.

So this hasn't brought us closer together because we couldn't get any closer.

That's lovely. That's nice.

Especially.

I'll agree with that. Yeah, I don't often agree with her,

but you agree with that. That's. That's really nice. That's really nice. So thanks very much for your honesty, Doug and Barbara. And it's interesting that you say that it wasn't.

The cancer hasn't affected your relationship. Your relationship was solid before this came along. And Max and Charlie, would you agree with that or, you know, what would you say as a couple?

I think particularly as a gay couple, this often doesn't get talked about. You know, I'm gay.

Are you? Apparently I'm the gay one.

So it's fine. Yeah. It's a long story. A long story.

I'm probably politically incorrect on that, but I just want to, I want to make sure that we're inclusive and.

Yes.

What's your, what's your experiences or what would you, what would your advice and support be to somebody facing a cancer diagnosis who may be in a same sex relationship, for instance?

I would say so Max, Max and I go into every appointment together. I always introduce Max as my wife. So it's not ambiguous who is in the room with me.

And I don't know whether it's the way that we set that up or that all of my healthcare professionals are more than on side. But I'm answering for you. I think you're always included in the conversation. Max is referenced in my clinical letters.

You're given ample opportunity to ask questions as much as I am. So our experience of this has been really positive. But like I say, I also set the scene. So it's not ambiguous why Max is in the room with us.

And I, I don't talk for everyone because I know single sex couples do have different experiences of health care, but ours is extremely positive, massively.

And I wonder if that's because you felt able and safe with your team to be very open.

You know, I can remember I worked back in the days of HIV when it first came out, and it really, I mean, we got very used to talking about it because we, that was our role and we supported same sex couples and relationships. So it's, it became part of who I was.

I didn't see them as any different really, but I know from other patients since that have said to me there still is that stigma and difference in how they're treated as a couple to how a straight couple are treated. Would you, would you know, what's your thoughts on that?

I mean, I can't really comment on it because we, we haven't had that experience, you know that. But I, I like to think.

And what I encourage people to do is actually have them present, you know, and one, it adds transparency across the whole spectrum. But it also probably, I mean, Charlie did, like Charlie mentioned, she always introduces me as Charlie's wife, as her wife.

But it's, it may save the actual med team to ask that question. Is Max your wife? Do you know what I mean? So it may actually help them be a bit more comfortable with the situation. But like I say, I.

We haven't experienced any, any prejudice. Yeah, nothing. Nothing like that at all.

I'd also say because we have both served in the military, we've both been to each other's messes, clearly, as at the time, civil partners. Now we're wife and wife. But I think, I don't say own the room because that sounds really presumptuous.

But I think walking in as if you should be there in the first place, don't apologize for yourself. So there's, there's a. There's a lot about. We deserve to be in the room together. We're going through this.

We're a married couple the same way that Doug and Barbara are. Just because there's two women or two men. I think it's how you turn up sometimes. But again, we haven't had a negative experience.

I do know people that have and I haven't been a fly on the wall, so I can't tell you it's how that person presented to the room. And I'm not saying that, but it's, it's part for us. It's very much. We deserve to be there together.

We're there to support each other and I appreciate different opinions, but that's exactly what it is. It's an opinion.

Yeah.

And we've luckily not experienced any discrimination or prejudice.

Well, I'm glad to hear that.

I think it helps to go in together anyway. I'VE got headlights.

If I have to, I have to go with him because otherwise you. You didn't listen to half what they sell him.

Okay, so, you know, so for you too, it's the fact of. About information gathering and that two ears are better than one. Yeah, in a way, yeah.

I mean, I hear everything, but it doesn't always register.

No.

Whereas, you know, she's got a photographic memory.

And do you find that one of you in a relationship deals with the, you know, family who are perhaps when you get back from an appointment, are asking lots of questions and do you have like an assigned person in the relationship for that?

I mean, the family will text either of us to see how we got on. They usually send a text to see, you know, the day before we go and one the day we come back. And then when the results come through,

you know, they might join effort.

Yeah.

You know, we've got three sons and three daughters in law, so we just, you know, share it out really.

What about you two? Any differences there? Any, you know, just one of you take more of a lead on shielding?

I would say. Not really. We tend to speak to our own family, which doesn't, you know, we both speak to each other's families.

But in terms of the phone call, I'll speak to my mum, Max will speak to her parents. We might be sat next to each other on a couch.

But the other thing that I would also advise is we quite often do a video update and then that video can be shared so we don't have to explain to every single person the outcome, which helps us because actually you don't keep getting triggered and the emotion. And it really can be tiring. Updating, updating everyone.

But like I say, our parents generally get a phone call, but everyone else will generally get a shared message.

Yeah, that's a great idea. I like that.

Yeah, because it is the. Sorry, Go on.

I was gonna say we tend to go to our happy place and we just do a quick update. Well, it's usually me holding the phone and Charlie talking.

Funny that happy place is the pub, by the way, by a lake. So water's really calming for me and I think for you. So we've got a favorite pub that we generally go to for at least a drink immediately.

Artists bike, five minutes.

It's kind of like a. The decompression.

Decompression, yeah.

And I think, Doug, you've got one of those, haven't you, a happy place that you and Barbara go to? Is it the cafe at the end of the walk.

Yeah, yeah, that's in. In where? Yeah, we walk along the canal from a place called Stansted Abbots, which is about two miles. And by the time we've got there, you know, it's.

It's time to stop.

Yeah.

And then recoup for the walk back.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I think most of our walks are designed around a calf or something at the end of it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we were talking earlier about the change in roles in the relationship, that although the relationship hasn't fundamentally changed who you both are together. I know Doug was saying this on the previous podcast that.

About Barbara having the lawnmower, I think was one of the classics that will go down a podcast history. And.

But it just showed that there were changes in roles and that you used to do Doug in the house, the gardening and that sort of thing that now Barbara's taking on. And, And I just wonder, Barbara, if you wouldn't mind, you know, how have you been about that? Has that bothered you or.

No, you just get on with it. You just go, okay, that's it.

Yeah.

I mean, you used to.

I couldn't start the lawn mowed. I don't know if he told you, but, you know, I couldn't start the damn thing. So he got me a battery operated

one, got fed up a start in the lawn, so.

And think. But now I just get on with it, you know, and if I.

If there's something I can't do, like when the shed roof started leaking, I mean, there's no way I could get up there and put the new felt on. So the sun came along and did that for us and things. But I'll tackle most things just

similarly, if you had to give any sort of advice to couples going forward, what, what would your advice be after 57 years?

Well, if you can't. If you can't do it yourself and, and Bob can't do it, then you've just got to get somebody else to give.

You got to give up, haven't you? And get somebody else to do it,

but get somebody in and do you talk a lot?

I mean.

Oh, never stop. Imagine you can't shut him up.

Okay, okay. I was going down the lines of, you know, open communication. Obviously that's not a problem for you and Doug.

We don't have a problem. As she probably said earlier on, we tend to finish each other's sentences as well because we know exactly, exactly what we're thinking.

Yeah.

It's just, just how we are.

I mean, I, I hear him sharp and Take a breath. And I know just what he's going to say before he be saying vice versa.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really nice.

That's. That is something special because if you relate it to the cancer side of things, I know when Charlie's in. In

not bad in my own head.

Yeah. When Charlie's quiet or, you know, or doing. Doing whatever she does, I know Charlie needs space or I'll do something else and help her out.

And it's always do that. Check in, just. Are you okay? So it's just recognizing each other's habits.

Yeah. You know, don't you?

I say to him, sometimes you're not feeling too good today.

Exactly. Yeah.

Just know.

You just. You do. Just.

You do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And how do you think you would deal with. So I know some patients that are coming to clinic. One of the frustrations that the partner often has is the person won't talk to them about it.

Now, that could be because the person doesn't want to cause distress to their loved one. So they think. And they've often said to me, I can't talk about it to my partner because then they get upset.

And I don't want to cause them heartache and upset. Upset. Or they just are so scared about what's going on for themselves that they just bottle it all up inside.

And I know that's not your experience, but what sort of things would you say to somebody if it was your friend and they came to you and said, oh, my wife or my partner's been diagnosed with a cancer, but they won't talk to me. You know, kind of. What. What advice and support would you give somebody else, Another couple, maybe.

That's very sad. If a couple can't talk about it together, I think that's quite sad. But you. You must, because it does help.

Yeah.

You know, if I'm feeling down, then Doug helps me as well because I get upset.

Of course you do, too.

Yeah.

We've. We've got some friends who unfortunately are going through the cancer journey. Not necessarily lung cancer, but another type of cancer.

And they are very much. They. Yes, they do talk to each other, but they won't talk outside, if that makes sense.

And I always encourage the person I'm conversing with is you also need support. You can reach out to this agency, you can reach out to that person. You can reach out to so on and so forth, or even reach out to me.

You know, have that anchor person, if you want to call it that, just to actually have that offload where you can actually confide in someone and just talk very freely and willingly. And it may not be to either the loved one or the. The cancer patient.

But it is important, like you say, to talk because it's not good bottling things up. No, it really isn't.

Doesn't solve anything, does it? I think it makes them worse.

I've spoken before that I received counselling, and I'm extremely grateful for that coun. And a couple of times we've had a conversation which Max has sort of said, you know, you can talk to me. And we do. We do talk about a lot of things.

Most things I would say 98% of what I'm going through, but there's 2%. And you hit the nail on the head, Rachel, up sometimes what's in my head. I don't want to talk to anyone I know, to be honest.

And the counseling allows me to put that outside of my friends, family, loved ones, because there are bits of this where I know, sadly, my journey will affect others once it stops, as much as it's no longer my problem at that point. So basically, let's face it, at some point, I am likely to die of stage four lung cancer, and those that are left behind will have to deal with that.

I know that as much as it's not my problem when that happens, it's very much inside my head that my journey is going to affect everyone that loves me. And that's the bit that I really don't want to talk directly to Max about, even though we're sat next to each other right now.

But that's why, for me, we talk about almost everything. But there's bits in this journey that I talk to my counselor about.

There's also an element of anger as well. Yeah.

I've certainly been angry about the situation, and I don't want to sometimes I don't want to express the anger with Charlie because it's my anger, it's my frustration about the situation. But I can't emphasize enough that you need to have that support line, whether it's with each other or whether it's someone else.

You need to have it because it's not healthy. It really is not healthy. No, not, you know, for the relationship as well as the person and everybody else, but it just.

Yeah.

Strongly encouraging that when we watched the podcast last night, the previous, that you sounded as if you'd come across angry.

Yes.

Yeah.

But I think it's okay to. To be angry. And I think this is the thing.

Often we don't talk about things openly because we don't think it's okay to come across as being angry or to be upset. But actually it is okay to be angry and upset and to feel able to say, I'm really angry about this.

And I have had relatives say to me before, I'm so angry, Rachel, I don't know what to do with myself. I'm so angry that this has happened to my loved one.

And the impact, like you say, Max and Charlie, you were saying, the impact not just on the person who's got the cancer diagnosis, but the impact on the partner. So, you know, I think it's good that you've said about your counselling and I know that EGFR Positive UK have counselling and so does Hasag.

But if you're not in the area to access some counselling support, please reach out for either your lung cancer nurse specialist and ask her or. Or him. It's counselling available in your hospital or go to your local cancer information centre.

Most hospitals will have a cancer information service with counselling attached to it and other charities as well, like macmillan or Roy Castle Lung Cancer foundation, they offer counselling as well for patients affected by a cancer diagnosis. So please, I think one of the messages that's coming out is please don't sit there and bottle it up.

Even if you don't talk to each other about it, you know, as Max was saying, find someone else that you can talk to so that you get that opportunity to offload your feelings and anxieties and anything else that you're thinking.

And I know we've said before in our podcast on mental health about how talking about things that are inside and scary for us sometimes when we talk about it and we say it or even write it, then those fears can become less.

Yeah, it's almost for me, it's getting it out of my head. So I haven't tried journaling, I have to be honest. But I know through work I'm a. If I verbalize something. So I'll, you know, an idea, a project.

The more I talk about it, the more I actually calm my head down and I absolutely the same with the cancer journey of. And let's face it, I think we also mentioned this at the mental health podcast.

It's not normal for us individually, but what we're experiencing is fairly normal for cancer patients. And we only experience the world through our own brain and eyes and mind.

But actually going and seeking a professional support person, if you feel that's useful, what we're going through and what One is experiencing is natural for what we're going through. It's just odd for us as individuals.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah. And, Doug, if you got anything you wanted to add to that?

No, I don't think so. I think that's covered just about everything. It's.

Yeah, it is.

You know, if as a couple with Charlie and Max and us, you know, you've got to talk to one another, no point in just sitting in the corner and moping, you know, get on with it.

Yeah, it's.

And sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it is hard.

And I was going to say, sometimes it's about maybe having somebody to start that conversation for you, because sometimes knowing how to talk to each other and open up difficult conversations in a relationship that may cause the other person to be upset. Sometimes we don't know how to open those conversations in the first place, do we?

But touching on that, the longer you leave it, the harder it will be to actually bring up the conversation or that topic. So the sooner you can have the opportunity to chat. We've certainly discovered that transparency is key. Honesty is key.

Having that open and honest dialogue makes the relationship stronger. And that's not just with us two, that's with med team, with friends and family, everybody who's on this journey with us.

I think that is key, is just don't bottle things up, leave it later and later and later because it becomes more difficult.

You must keep a sense of humor, though.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes something will crop up in conversation about maybe booking something for six months ahead, you know, and I'll look at him and say, well, he's still going to be here.

Are you planning on sticking around?

Doug, you've got to have these things, you've got to laugh about things as well, because otherwise life is just awful, isn't it? Completely. I'll give you a little example. Last year, Doug went to look at a new car.

He went to the dealer and he's telling the salesman what he'd like to buy. And the salesman said, oh, yes, right. He said, I'll go away. And he came back and he said, yes, that will be all right.

Doug, you could have that car in that colour with this on and that on delivery date is six months time. I said, blum, he won't be here. I might not be here by then. We better buy something in the showroom.

So we did.

Oh, God, that is brilliant.

Luckily, the thing

must be thinking, what the hell is going on here?

The salesman knew us, but he's bus with him.

Oh, okay, Brilliant.

So, you know, little things like that we can laugh about because you've. You've got to keep your sense of humor.

You really have. I wonder, though.

I know as nurses, we often have quite a dark sense of humor because I think we're faced with such traumatic things, really, we're dealing with such difficult. Almost like helping people carry burdens every day. And I know for a fact that our sense of humor.

And we used to say to each other in the office at times, golly, if the BBC could listen to in. Now we're being. You know, they wouldn't get us at all.

You're being caught.

Hopefully not totally. But, you know, I wonder if your. Your sense of humor, if you've noticed that your sense of humor has changed.

Because normally we wouldn't laugh about that kind of conversation, would we? We certainly wouldn't all be here giggling about that. But actually, baby having a cancer diagnosis, you do see life differently.

Definitely.

Yeah.

But I would say those things in front of Doug. I wouldn't think it, you know, I wouldn't. Like some people would just think that and. Oh, blimey, you know. But no, we say it because it helps.

Oh, it does, it does, definitely.

I was gonna say we're definitely a couple that would say it. Think it's. Joke about it. But what I think is important to point out here is a bit like nursing. Military can have quite a dark sense of humor as well.

So what I. What I would sort of say here is a cancer diagnosis doesn't necessarily change your relationship, what was there in the first place.

It's a bit like having a baby. If you've got a good relationship, you have a baby.

Hopefully, you know, if you've got a poor relationship, then you have a baby, that baby might end up splitting you up. But it's not the baby, it's your relationship. So I kind of go. Our sense of humor has always been pretty dark.

We've always spent a lot of time laughing and joking. But the diagnosis hasn't changed that. What it potentially has changed is our awareness and our priorities. They've definitely changed.

So we're now, anyone might not wake up tomorrow morning, but we're much more aware.

And that awareness has allowed us now to embrace the way we've done it is we've embraced life and the opportunities and say yes at opportunity now, rather than going, oh, I can't do that. I've got a work meeting. Clearly, boss, if I have a work meeting, it's important. But if we've got an opportunity coming up and we can make it work.

We take the opportunity, better work.

Life balance, would you say?

Yeah, but it's where I was sort of coming from is, you know, the sense of humor. The sense of humor was there in the first place, but now it's moved into cancer.

Right.

That's why I was sort of going, is it cancers that's changed it? No, we had that relationship to begin with. We had that sense of humor. We've talked about everything openly from the start of our relationship.

The reason I say this is I'm aware of again through the EGFR network, I'm aware of people that don't have that relationship with their partner. But it isn't the cancer that's caused that. They may not have had that relationship to begin with.

So what I was going to say is a bit like in fact, so if your partner isn't the person you talk to about things, go and find someone that you can. Because you were saying earlier about, you know, Barbara, I can't believe you can't felt a roof, but you can't. So what did you do?

You got someone in that could help you and did do the roof. And I think in any single subject here, your partner might not be the person that can do that. So what can you do about that between the two of you?

If we both can't do it then we are much better now at going actually we need a bit of help with X and I think that's changed for us.

But touching on what you mentioned about, you know, finding somebody to help person to fix, whether it's the roof or whether it's something else. But it also gives the person who's, who's got the cancer the reassurance that when they do sadly pass on, there's always that support network.

It gives them the reassurance.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And we were very again military. We're taught to self sort a problem out. Yeah, you've got a problem, what are you going to do about it? And so it's taken me certainly a while to go.

It's okay to ask for help. Yeah, it's better to ask for help because rather than stewing on and whatever it is, but find a way around it I guess is what we're trying to say.

So we now adapt and we're much quicker to go. I haven't got time, can't do it.

Get somebody to help you.

Yeah. So we'll, you know, it's not that we're not willing to try anything else. But as I say, if it's, you know, we're much better at, I wouldn't

doubt her ability to felt the roof. It's just she won't get up a ladder.

So I think and of course, the other thing we've, because we're Both in our 70s, I often love, I say, well, he's going on, look at him looks picture of health. I might pop my clock for he does.

Well, there's always that, Barbara. There is always that. But yeah, there is always that. And I think, you know what, like there's that old adage, isn't there problem shared is a problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And, and I hope you've enjoyed the podcast and found it as entertaining as I have, but also helpful.

We would encourage you, as Barbara and Doug have said, and Charlie and Max, it's not the cancer that is affecting the relationship, it's the relationship that is of importance. Please do reach out if you need support or help. Don't sit there and bottle things up. It is far better to talk than keep quiet.

Even if you don't feel able to talk to your loved one for fear of upsetting them, please find someone that can help you because I think you'll find that your journey together is a better journey for it. So thank you once again for tuning in.

Thank you very much, Charlie and Max, Barbara and Doug, for your enthusiasm and just openness about talking about your own relationships. Just remember that you yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserves your own love and affection. Just hold on to that.

And thank you once again for joining us.