Nadia Hamdan is a producer for Reveal, from the Center for Investigative Reporting: the nation’s first investigative journalism nonprofit. The podcast and radio show is a winner of multiple Peabody, duPont, Emmy, and Murrow awards.

In this full episode, Nadia talks about her career path that led to investigative journalism, her creative process when working on an audio piece, and she talks about the process of making her most ambitious project, the 40 Acres And A Lie podcast. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Rev.com

- Hi, I'm Kendell Kelton

and I'm your host today

on "The Rough Draft."

Featuring honest conversations

with folks from across

the creative industry,

The Rough Draft explores

the creative process, tools

and resources used by some

of the best in the business.

From journalists to content

creators and business leaders,

we shed light on what it looks like

to break into the industry,

make mistakes, collaborate

with others, and the essential tools

that help us all along the way.

This week I'm super excited to

be talking with Nadia Hamdan,

a producer for the Emmy

and Merle Award-winning

investigative reporting podcast

and public radio show, "Reveal."

Nadia has worked on a range

of investigative stories

about the post Roe healthcare crisis,

the impacts of US gun laws,

and that modern day

debate around reparations.

On today's episode, Nadia

breaks down her creative process

and the tools she uses to

bring her investigative stories

to air and walks us through

how she produced her most

recent three part series

on Black reparations called

"40 Acres and A Lie."

Hi.

- Hi.

- Thank you for for joining today.

I'm really excited about this

because you and what you're doing now,

I just find so completely fascinating,

especially given where the world is.

So before we kind of dive into things,

I wanna start with the basics, "Reveal."

So Reveal is known

for its deep dive investigative reporting

and for those who might

not be as familiar with it,

how would you describe

the show, what it's about,

and the type of stories you focus on?

- Hmm. I mean, it really runs the gamut.

Reveal I think is pretty

unique in the sense

that it's going to give you a deep dive

into just a variety of topics

and it does so every week.

And the way that we're able

to do this is that, you know,

we are able to cover things

like abortion, gun laws,

voter fraud, any big name issue,

Reveal is looking at it.

And the way we're able

to do this is, you know,

we have our in-house team of reporters

and producers who put

out incredible stuff.

But what I love about Reveal

and what I think is really unique

about this shop is that we partner

with investigative journalists everywhere

from different outlets across the world.

So if people have stories

that they want to tell

through this medium,

and maybe they're a

print reporter for the AP

or they work at the Texas Tribune,

you can reach out to Reveal

and we have like really

strong partnerships

with people already.

Or if your pitch is just

fabulous, like we will work

with you and we will take that story

and turn it into an

incredible hour of audios.

- To that end,

producing a weekly

investigative show is like,

I have to imagine,

is a marathon and not a sprint.

What is it like to keep

up with that pace though,

week after week?

- The way that it works

is we are investigative,

so we do have time, right?

Like, this is kind of

part of the reason I moved

to Reveal from a local daily

because you know, I wanted

to sit with a story longer.

And when you work at a local

daily, like prior to Reveal,

I worked at KUT in Austin, you know,

it was just like a quick daily turnaround

or turning a feature

around in a week, you know.

And I love that and there's

something really special

about that and it's a great skill to have,

but I wanted to just like

sit in a story longer.

And the nice thing

about Reveal is they do

give you a decent amount

of time to really tell a story.

You know, we do have quick

turnarounds from time to time,

but usually we sit on a story

for a few months at a time.

You know,

one of the longest stories

I worked on took two years.

- Yeah.

- So there is this understanding

that like a good story,

at least, you know,

certain hour long shows

are gonna take time

and they carve out that time.

But otherwise, yeah,

sometimes you're turning

around a segment, you know,

eight to 10 minutes within a month or two.

And I think for anyone

who has done any sort

of production work, like anytime

you get close to deadlines,

it doesn't matter if you're

a daily, a monthly, a yearly,

like it just feels like you have no head

and you're trying to make things work.

But it's still great

'cause I love that I just

get to like sit in a story

for a while and think about it.

And I feel like that's where

a lot of nuance comes in.

- Yeah.

We're gonna talk a lot about

kind of sitting in that

and your creative process

and a storytelling piece,

but fun fact that you don't know about me,

but I know about you.

We were both editors

and chiefs of our high school newspaper.

So, yeah.

(laughing)

How, from early on,

and I know kind of your path

wasn't necessarily like,

you know, linear.

So how did that kind of early experience

shape your interest in journalism

and what ultimately led you

to doing this longer form content

that you have already articulated

that you love so much?

- Well, nerds is nerd,

super happy to know you're also editor.

I remember we got like letterman jackets

for being an editor.

- Oh yeah.

I did too.

- I was like,

I don't think that should be allowed.

No, I loved it.

I loved being editor of

my high school newspaper.

I wasn't a huge joiner to be honest.

You know, I did a few

things in high school,

but I wasn't one of those people

that really was like doing a

ton of extracurricular stuff.

But I was so drawn to being editor

and there was like an

open position to do it.

And I've just always loved writing.

Writing was something

I really enjoyed doing.

Telling stories was something

I really enjoyed doing.

So I was like, why not try this?

And I remember that being such

a formative time to be like,

oh, you can really,

you can do something really

special by just telling a story.

Right?

I think the final story

I did when I was editor

was there was one person

who was trans in our school

and I knew them and I knew that

they would change every day

before school and like become

the person that they are,

but their parents wouldn't accept.

And so I did a two page

spread about their story

as like as one of my

final stories that I did.

And I just remember what

it meant to that person.

And I just remember falling

in love with that experience

and how much like it taught me.

And so I knew I wanted to do that,

but I have an immigrant father

and he didn't quite see

what was so great about it at the time.

He knew how hard it

was to be a journalist.

He knew how little they pay.

And so he was just kind of like,

I don't think this is the path for you.

You know, in those early

days I was a little lost

and it kind of shook my confidence in it.

And so I took a very different route.

I definitely did a very

different career for a while.

I went the corporate route,

marketing and advertising.

And I don't regret it,

I learned a ton.

I got to travel and see the world

and I got to do interesting things,

but it was just never it.

Like I knew it wasn't it, you know?

And I was still so deep

in the journalism world.

I was listening to NPR all the time.

I was reading articles all the time.

I was loving living in the words

that these people were creating.

And I was like,

I wanna give it a shot.

- Yeah.

- And so I decided to give it a shot

- "Reveal," let's kind of

talk about that a bit more.

When you're brought onto a story

or maybe you pitch a story idea,

how does that process begin?

Especially on the investigative lens,

because as you said, it takes time.

It can take months, it can take years.

So how do y'all kick things off?

- To be honest, it's

like we're always trying

to figure out what's the most

efficient way to do this.

It's like an ongoing

conversation in our newsroom.

But you know, a lot of

it is you can, you know,

if you have a story,

You pitch it and you know,

you write up your pitch

as best you can.

You propose it in front of a team

and you know, the editors

kind of go off and come back

and say yay or nay, you know?

And then other times I'm assigned stories,

a lot of the time I am.

Because as I said, you know,

we as a producer, a big part

of my job is taking

those stories that come

from outside outlets and turning

it into a really, you know,

strong piece of radio.

- And so you kind of hinted

at sometimes you're reporting,

sometimes you're producing,

sometimes you're doing both.

Do you have a preference personally

or has that kind of shifted

as you've moved along in your career?

- I would like to report more.

You know, I feel like

part of the, as much as I,

and like don't get me wrong,

I really love taking a really great story

from a print reporter

and turning it into

something really special.

Like, I do enjoy that process,

but the struggle for me is

that sometimes like I am an audio producer

and reporter,

so I know how to do this job

for this medium.

- Yeah.

And sometimes I'm expending

so much energy trying

to teach someone who's a print reporter

and that's not their job

to like be this version of themselves.

- Yeah.

- And it can take a lot

and sometimes you don't always succeed

and that part can become

a little difficult

when you're like, I would like

to produce and report my own

because I know I can make it sound exactly

as I'm envisioning it to sound

and not have to like coach

someone to be like, no,

the inflection in your voice

just sound a little less stiff.

You know what I mean?

And you have to like sit

there and do this work.

And I do love when you see

someone who's like, "Oh,

that was such an incredible experience.

Like I learned so much."

And you're like, and we were

able to make something great.

But you know, sometimes

you're like, it'd be nice

to just have my hands on this

thing from beginning to end.

- There's nuances, right?

I think audio, especially given like,

it can be very subjective to somebody.

It's like, how do you really

embed them in the experience?

Do you add music?

Do you need a sound

effect at a certain point?

And some of the pieces

that I was listening to

that you were a part

of, it's like the moment

when you can hear yourself

walking on the ground,

that can be a very

powerful moment at a place.

So how do you,

I mean that's,

- Exactly.

- I imagine that once you're in it,

like it can be really tricky

but also very beautiful process.

- Absolutely. You're

totally touching on it.

I think that's the part that

you have certain instincts

as an audio producer that

you're not gonna have

as a print reporter.

You know, they're gonna

be so much better at stuff

that I'm not as good at

and vice versa, right?

So when they come to us

with a story, sometimes,

you know, they've already done

a decent amount of reporting.

But then I ask, what tape do you have?

'Cause we're an a sonic

medium, like I need audio.

And they're just like, "Oh, I don't know.

I mean, I did all these interviews

but they were on my phone

and they were just

sitting here on the table

and they're not that great."

And I was like, okay, you

know, there's no ambi right?

So there's no sound of the person walking

or sound of whatever, you

know, space you're in.

All of those things matter so much in

how you then construct a story

that people feel like they're in.

They can use their

imagination and be there.

- We're gonna talk a little bit more

about creative process a little bit later.

But in those first few weeks,

especially if you're wearing

your producer hat on,

how do you dive into that kind of mindset

as you're in the field reporting?

Or like how do you kind

of stay aware of all

of those opportunities at the same time?

Because again, like print

journalists may not,

to your point, be thinking about

what else can I capture here

to articulate the point

I'm trying to drive home?

- Yeah, totally.

I mean, you're constantly

trying to perfect that skill

as an audio producer.

I think like you're just getting better

at noticing things, you know?

And I think it's like you just have

to turn your awareness

up as high as possible

when you're in those moments, right?

When you're in an interview

or when you're in the field.

Like, it's like, what

sounds can I just get?

And I don't know if I'm gonna use it all.

I don't know if it's gonna be worthwhile,

but like what you're trying

to do effectively, you know,

is how do I bring the listener

here in this moment with me?

Or how do I get to the real meat of

what this person I'm

interviewing is saying?

How do I describe the

person I'm looking at

so that the person who's

listening can get a sense?

Does she have a bold red lip?

Does he have some, you know, is he bald?

You know, does he wear glasses?

Is he clean cut or is

he a little schleppy?

You know what I mean?

Like you're kind of trying

to give someone an idea of a person

because they're just listening.

But like you can hear their voice,

so you're still getting this

intimate sense of a person

and maybe a space.

But as a producer, the more

intimacy you can bring into it,

the better, I feel.

And so that just means getting better

and better at just really paying attention

to really little things

and like capturing it all

and then having way too

much tape to work with

and cutting it down until you

find something that worked.

- Generally speaking, I wanted to ask,

this industry's tough, it's tough.

What challenges are you

kind of facing right now?

I think a lot of people have

this kind of glamorous view

of especially podcasts

of what it might be like to be in it.

And sometimes they have a

very kind of glamorous view

of the life of an investigative reporter.

- It is funny 'cause I'll tell someone,

you know, they're like, "What do you do?"

And I'll be like, "I'm

a podcast producer."

And like, "Oh my God, cool," you know?

So there is this sense of

like, it's kind of like one

of those industries that people are like,

that's kind of dope, you know?

But I also think like the

market is so saturated.

- It's tough.

- There's so many podcasts out there

and it is kind of overwhelming sometimes.

And you're really competing

for people's attention,

which I think is part of

a frustration we have.

'Cause you know, what Reveal

does, there is no doubt

for anyone who really follows it.

Like, I admire the work

that we do so much,

and I know the value of it,

but let's be honest,

most people don't wanna hear a whole hour

on why the world is on fire every week.

They already know it's on fire.

So I do think like, we tend

to be a little doom and gloom.

And I think that's part

of, you know, I can see how

that makes it a struggle

in this, you know,

attention economy where people are like,

but you can listen to a whole podcast

about people gossiping about stuff.

I'm like, I'd totally rather

listen to that sometimes.

Everything's changing

because of the internet.

Everything's changing because of the way

that we just like consume things.

And that's really affected our industry.

I mean, I've survived

three rounds of layoffs.

We had to do a merger with Mother Jones

because we were really

struggling as an organization

and merging was a way to save us.

So it's like behind the

scenes, these are all happening

as we're trying to put out these stories

and still keep them, you

know, to the highest caliber.

But you're also just like

sometimes in a fetal position

in the corner being like,

will I have a job tomorrow?

- Well, Nadia, before we move on,

I actually think that's

a beautiful transition

'cause I wanna read something

that you wrote ahead

of this episode that you

shared with our team.

- Oh.

- When talking about audio

journalism in particular,

I just thought it was a

beautiful articulation

of what you're doing.

You said, "You're not just reporting,

you're trying to immerse

someone in the story.

It's by far the most

intimate form of journalism

that exists in my view.

So while print and video

can tell beautiful stories,

I look at audio as the

porridge that's just right.

It's one thing to read someone's words,

but to hear them say it

with their own voice,

with its own accent, cadence

and emotion, you connect so much more."

I just thought that was very powerful.

- Thank you. Thank you.

I truly believe that.

I really believe that.

I am so grateful that I found this medium

and I found this work.

It's like, I really do enjoy it every day,

even on the worst days.

- Yeah.

So Nadia investigative audio can

generate a mountain of material.

How do you go about organizing it,

from ideas, to research,

just to make sure things don't get lost?

I mean, a one week project in my world,

I panic over if I have things.

So I can only imagine what

it might be like for you.

- I think the last project I worked on,

which was the largest project I worked on,

we use a software called Descript,

which is where we upload

a lot of our audio

and then it provides a transcript

among many other wonderful things.

It's a blessing and a curse,

but our job is made so much

better with that software.

But my folder for that project got so big

that I literally couldn't open

it anymore towards the end.

- Oh, no.

- Like I had to like do

some like maneuvering

to make it work for like

the final, you know,

few of the project because

it had just gotten huge.

So yes, to your point, these

projects can get crazy big.

I mean hours and hours of audio.

- Yeah.

- Days of audio really.

- Reveal actually started in 2013, right?

It's been around for a while.

But imagine doing that

without tools like Descript.

- Actually cutting physical tape?

- Yeah, yeah.

- Like I respect that so much,

but that's maybe part of why

we're able to do this now.

You know what I mean?

- Yeah.

Because the more advanced

the software becomes,

the more ambitious we can be, you know?

- I love that.

- So it doesn't mean

that there wasn't incredible

ambitious stories back then,

but you were kind of limited

with what you were able to do

because there's only so much

you can cut out of that tape.

I used to not be very

organized, I'll be honest.

I was a bit of a chaos child,

but with something that goes long

and you're not quite sure

what it's gonna be at the very beginning

and you wanna make sure

that you're still able

to like go back into an old

interview at a certain section

and know where that interesting thing was,

I've learned to really

organize my Descript

with different interviews

and then I listen to the

interview almost immediately

after I've done it, either

the same day or the day after

because I know what moments

spoke to me in the interview

and I wanna remember that.

So what I'll do is I'll

highlight the stuff,

but I'll also put a note of

like, this was a great cut,

like one of the best,

or this was an interesting note she made,

or fact check this.

- Yeah.

Just to keep my thoughts in order

so that when I do go back into that thing,

even if it's been a month

or two since I've looked

at it, I can like go

through the interview with

all these notes on the side

and be reminded very quickly of the things

that I need to know.

- Yeah.

So that I can move a little bit faster

and make any last minute changes.

So that's one way in which I try

to really keep it organized is

just really, really make sure

that your tape is really,

really well organized

and that you've really laid

out the best pieces of it.

- Writing scripts can be really

kind of intimate process.

I know some people are like,

I just like going on Vox.

I just like having my good old

like corner in a coffee shop

and my pen and paper.

Or like I'll just sit there on my laptop

and I can't have tech around me.

- Yeah.

- So I'd love to know

more about your process

'cause I imagine it may

be similar, maybe not,

but it's like this kind of crazy balance

between modern advancements

and like good old fashioned pen and paper.

- Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

I think the software is incredible

for keeping things organized.

When it comes to writing,

it is always gonna be the writing process.

You know what I mean?

- Yeah.

- It doesn't matter how

advanced this technology comes,

like when you're looking at a blank page,

it is the scariest thing on Earth

and you have to figure out

how do I make it work for me?

And everyone, like you said,

has like very different

ways of doing that.

I do love taking walks.

I think taking walks when you

have writer's block is one

of the best things you can do.

It really just gets

everything moving again.

Writing isn't sitting

at your computer typing,

writing is happening all the time.

It can happen in so many scenarios.

It can happen right when

you're falling asleep.

It can happen right when you wake up.

It can happen while

you are having a dinner

with a random stranger.

Like an idea will come

and that's part of the thing

you wanna put in your story.

So I'm not rigid in the way that I write.

There's the reporting side

of my brain that's like,

let me make sure that

I'm respecting the people

that talk to me and

told me what they feel.

And then there's like the

creative side of my brain

that's like, okay,

what's the most interesting

way I can do this?

And the first draft sucks, always, always.

It's the ugly baby.

And it's just like I've

learned over many, many years

because my old self used to be like,

I would just sit with that

blank page, first draft

for way too long.

- Or get emotionally attached to it.

If an editor comes in and is like.

- Yes.

- Or somebody else comes in

or a collaborative partner

is like, eh, let's do it this way

and it's like, that's fine.

- Yes, yes.

Exactly, I think

if I have any like advice I

would give people starting out,

it's like, just get a

first draft on paper.

Just get a first draft on paper.

It does not have to be good.

In fact, it's fine if it's not good

because I think the good comes

from just like getting that on paper

so you get that first really

tough part out of the way

and then you go through and you finesse.

You need to almost like vomit

this out and then go back

and like fix it up

and that's how it becomes

what it's supposed to be.

And if you waste too much time

on trying to make that first

draft, the perfect draft,

you're gonna miss out

on like actually making

something really fantastic.

- All right, Nadia, your series,

which took two years to bring to life?

"40 Acres and a Lie,"

took a deep look at some

of the unfulfilled promises made

to Black Americans in our history.

I listened to the three episodes

and you could tell it was very tough.

No matter where you sat on the issue,

it was a very difficult subject

for people to talk about.

So what were the key questions

driving your investigation

and how did you get started

on that particular show?

- So this was a show that was

brought to us by a partner.

And so it was one of those moments

where our editors came forward

and said, you know, the

Center for Public Integrity,

which speaking of the

state of the industry,

no longer exists,

actually folded while we

were doing this project.

So these are incredible reporters,

anyone listening like reach out to them.

They had come to us saying, you know,

one of our reporters has been

like unpacking this history

and is learning that there

are these physical land titles

that exist in, you know,

the deep dark corners

of the National Archives.

And no one's really seen them

and no one really understands them.

But it just shows that this history

that we all thought we kind

of understood is actually

so much more than we thought.

And you know, the minute I read it,

I was like, I wanna be the producer.

Like, I don't know, there

was just like an instinctual,

my hand went up immediately

and I was like, this is fascinating.

You know, I think as a

reporter during George Floyd,

there was a lot of discussions

in newsrooms about covering

more Black stories

and understanding the Black

experience in a deeper way.

And I felt like this was

an opportunity to do that

because my understanding of 40 acres

and a mule was minimal, to say the least.

And so this.

- Yeah, same,

same before I listened to this.

- Yeah, and that's a shame, right?

That's a shame.

In the Black community,

it's a obviously a little more prominent,

but like we all should know

this, this is all our history.

But yeah, I was brought on as the producer

and it took so long because

what they were doing

was really labor intensive, right?

Like they were doing

work that historians do,

they were trying to unpack

and go through millions of documents.

So it was kind of just a really

long process for them to get

to a point where they

finally were like, okay,

this is the final number

I think we can get to

before we have to just

start making this thing.

And then we had to start making the thing

and it's a story about documents.

And so then the next step was everyone had

to start looking into genealogies

and tracing the names

of the formerly enslaved

to actual living descendants,

those that may have received

40 acres through the program.

You know, it was a lot of work

and we really struggled to find people,

which is another really

insidious part of slavery is

that these records are gone

and it's really hard to

make those connections,

but we were able to find people

and then we had to

construct a story out of it.

And that was a really hard thing to do.

Like it was really hard.

- You went into the field to do reporting,

you were multiple places, but

I'll call out the Carolinas

and Georgia specifically.

And doing that brings about

its own set of challenges,

especially if you're

trying to find people,

meeting them where they are.

So what was that like

and how did that experience

for you kind of shape

where you took the story?

- This is the part that I feel

really grateful for in my job

and also grateful to the people at CPI

who really trusted us in this process

and welcomed me along

every step of the way

and wanted me to co-report it with them.

Getting to report in

the field is the thing

that lifts me up in this job.

The thing that is so special about getting

to be a journalist and a

producer is I get to meet people

that I otherwise probably

never would've met.

And then I get to not only meet them,

but like talk to them about

really intimate stuff.

You know, really personal

stuff, really fraught stuff.

You know, it's a story about land

and it's a story about descendants

and I'm getting to walk the

land with that descendant.

It's just,

- Yeah,

- It's a beautiful experience

and it's one that I just really treasure

and it does change things for you.

Like part of what I wanted to try to do

with those three episodes

when we're talking about collecting tape,

like, you know, I was trying

to collect as much sound

of the cicadas.

'Cause when you're out there,

it's so hot and you feel

like the sound of it,

it's like those cicada sounds are just all

around you or the water

is nearby or whatever.

Kind of the nature

around you is so present

and you're kind of feeling that

as you're talking to this

person about this land

that was once theirs or taken from them.

So then I was like, well I

want people to kind of try

and be here with me, right?

And you know, because we

had to pack so much in,

I didn't get as much of that

in the show as I would've liked

of just letting people sit and feel that,

because to me it was so profound.

That's one example of just kind of like,

you get immersed and

you realize the gravity

of what it is you're talking about.

And having people open up to

you and then get so emotional.

- Yeah.

- And you realize.

- There were a few times in

the show where people are like,

I can't, I gotta stop.

- Yeah, totally.

- And that alone just reflects the power

of what you were trying to do.

- Yeah, I mean there's

one line that I wrote

that I was really proud of

because I was trying to figure out

how to end the first episode

because there had been so much emotion.

And this goes back to what

it means to be a producer,

I think, that you're

really paying attention

and you're kind of trying

to notice as much as you can

to try and convey something, right?

So this is an example of that.

Like you said, multiple

times through our reporting,

people got so emotional,

whether it be angry and

frustrated or just completely sad.

And they asked us to

turn the mic off, right?

Which doesn't happen a ton,

to be honest, in my business.

Like I don't remember a ton of times

where someone was like so overwhelmed

by what we were discussing

that they asked me to turn the mic off.

And for that to happen

three separate times

in our reporting, I felt like was notable.

Right?

- Yeah.

- Like, so I was like, well one,

I know I wanna showcase

that they asked us to turn the mic off.

Because I do think that that

as a reporter is pertinent

to this discussion, right?

Because the reason they're

asking us to turn it off is

'cause they're struggling

to talk about this.

And then I was thinking

to myself, you know,

so many people are like, oh,

you're talking about slavery.

It's done and gone.

This was so long ago. Let it go.

And so when I was thinking

about how to end the show

and you know, we had just

come out of another person

asking to turn the mic off

because he was getting emotional

and starting to cry.

I was just like, you know,

if it's still this hard to talk about,

it means there's still

so much more to say.

I'm not trying to be biased.

I think like that is objectively

what I am witnessing is

that people are struggling

to talk about this, this

far after this thing.

Then clearly it's still important

and there's still so much more

we need to be talking about.

And those are the kinds of

things I feel like you're trying

to do as a producer is

really translate that

as best you can 'cause you're

the one walking that path

with that descendant.

You're the one in Georgia

sweating profusely, you know,

walking through fields

in 110 degree weather.

Like you are trying to get a sense

for the listener to like then

walk away with something.

- I guess reflecting on this series,

you had mentioned, you know,

it's one you're proud of

and you were proud of kind of

honing in on certain moments.

What lessons do you think

you have walked away with

after those two years that

will shape your future work

or future pieces that you may come across?

- Like it just ended this summer,

so it's like, I feel like I'm

slowly piecing that together.

- Yeah.

- Because I clearly learned,

I mean, it was such a formative.

I think anyone who ever

works on something this big

in their career for the

first time is gonna walk away

with so many lessons for the next one.

And you might still be in it.

- I feel like it.

Yeah. I feel like a part

of me feels like I haven't

fully extricated myself

from it yet, you know, and I think I will.

Like, I tend to do that.

Like I have like a little

bit of a longer tail end

and then I'll go back and

listen a few months later

and I'll like have like

an epiphany of sorts,

you know?

- Yeah.

- What I could have done better.

And I have some of that now.

I mean, I will say,

I think sometimes I'm

really tough on myself.

I think I can get really, when I work,

and this is just personally,

I want it to be the

best thing that ever was

and I put a lot of pressure

on myself to do so.

And I do think it's what makes me good,

but I also think sometimes I lose sight of

what story are you trying to tell

and are you telling it well?

And not losing sight of the

people that you've interviewed

and what they have said.

And don't get too lost in the,

I have to make this incredible,

and forget that really what you're trying

to do is translate something

important to a listener.

And if you can do that,

that can be done in a myriad of ways.

There isn't one right way, you know?

And I think that in my mind, sometimes,

I trick myself to believe

there's one right way.

And if I don't do it that one right way,

it was all for nothing.

And of course that's not true.

Like, that's so not true.

What I have gained from this experience,

getting to talk to all

the different people

that I got to talk to,

getting to share their

stories with an audience.

Like, let's be honest,

NPR is a very white place

with a very white audience.

And I got to do three full episodes

of all different voices from Black people

from all across the spectrum.

And I think like that

in itself is wonderful.

You know, because that's part

of what we're trying to do,

is to just get people to

step in someone else's shoes

for a minute and try to

empathize with their experience.

Whether or not you agree,

that's a different story,

but at least take a moment

to like live in someone else's

experience for a minute.

- Yeah.

- And I do feel I achieve that

and I feel like sometimes

I can get too lost

in what I'm producing versus

just the story itself.

- And what y'all are doing

are bringing these stories

to life for folks.

Like, again, as I had mentioned

earlier, I'm a bit sad

with myself that I didn't

quite understand the gravity

of "40 Acres and a Mule."

It's tough and I have a lot of privilege.

It's tough to have to sit with.

- It is, it's uncomfortable.

And I felt that plenty throughout this.

And I think,

but the fact that you just

said it gave you perspective

of any kind.

- Yeah.

- That's to me valuable.

If in another conversation someone

brings up "40 Acres and a Mule'

and you can speak to it in some way

that is true to the reality

of what it was, that's a win.

You know, and that's what journalism can

and should do is just have you walk away

with a little bit more knowledge

that makes you a little

bit more empathetic

to the world around you.

- I think that's actually

a beautiful way to kind of

wrap this up.

Before we go, can you

please let our audience know

where they can find your

work, learn more about you?

- Well, thank you so much for having me.

This has been lovely.

I guess you can go to revealnews.org

if you wanna go online,

but you can also just go to any place

that you get your podcast.

We're also featured on, you know,

hundreds of NPR stations

across the country.

So if you're a avid NPR listener,

you can go to your local station

and see when they air

Reveal, if they air Reveal.

But a lot do and so you could listen live.

Or you can go to my website,

which is nadiahamdan.me.

- We'll link those in our show notes.

Well, that's it for today's

episode of "The Rough Draft."

To learn more about our

guests and to find links

and resources related to the conversation,

check out rev.com/podcast.

If you enjoyed today's conversation,

be sure to rate and subscribe

in order to stay up to date

with the latest episodes.

Thank you for listening,

and we look forward to seeing you again

on the next episode of "The Rough Draft."