Episode Summary: join Jenn and Leekei in a spontaneous yet insightful conversation as they explore the diverse interpretations of a climate mindset.

Together, they emphasize the significance of acknowledging and appreciating these differences to avoid causing further divisions in our response to climate change.

In this episode, they cover a wide array of topics, including the ban on plastic straws, waste and plastic usage in the medical field, policies to increase car occupancy, the impact of the fashion industry, the value of minimalism, and the importance of embracing diverse opinions in climate action. 

Don't miss the end of the episode - there might even be a free microphone up for grabs! 

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Jenn Swanson and Leekei Tang 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and a podcaster from Paris, France.

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

I'm from Prague.

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Ola Ji and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hi, I'm Brian and I'm from New York.

Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with carbon conversations for every day with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

In our conversations, we share ideas.

Perspectives, questions and things we can actually do to make a difference.

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Hi, I'm Lakey.

Hi, I'm Jen.

So you were telling me that you've been out and having a lot of, um,

meeting outside of your work with, um, with different organizations.

Yeah, I've been, um, doing different things This past week, uh, I was a

guest at an annual meeting for an organization that works with children and

adults with developmental disabilities.

And then I was at a First Nations event, uh, a Potlatch because it was National

Indigenous People's Day this past week.

And so I've been meeting all different groups of people.

And the thing that came to mind about that, For me for this

conversation was climate mindset.

Mm.

And I wanted to just address climate mindset and how if you're listening

to this podcast, you might have your pair of climate glasses on.

So climate mindset, do you mean caring about the, the climate, but.

Looking at the world through your lenses of climate.

Yes.

Okay.

And how what we're doing as a species has an impact in every

little tiny corner of our existence.

Not just the big governmental or corporate things that are going on, but also in

our everyday tiny little decisions and.

I know that I walk around with this set of glasses on.

Yes.

And I, I know that probably the people listening do, but I wonder how, because

I find it personally very frustrating when I'm in the lineup at the grocery

store and I've got my mesh re washable bags to put fruit in and I'm not.

Putting every single thing in a plastic bag, and I'm bringing my own cloth bags

and I'm being super careful about the plastic use, and then the person next

to me puts every single thing into a separate plastic bag, and I just

wanna whack my head against the wall.

But, but it, I realize they don't have that climate mindset.

Yeah, well, they, they might not have the same mindset, but maybe

they don't have the same constraints or, you know, they are coming from,

I don't know if they put the, their stuff in different plastic bags.

They must have their own reasons.

I don't know.

Absolutely.

And I think you were talking about somebody who does workshops around,

uh, bringing people together who have different points of

view and learning from that and.

An example that comes to mind is a few years ago, Vancouver, which

is where I live, they decided they were gonna ban plastic drinking

straws, and I think they did.

Mm-hmm.

And I thought this was excellent.

Who needs a straw?

You know, you used to always get a straw when they'd bring you a drink

at a restaurant, et cetera, and most of the time it would just go.

Tossed in the garbage or you know, used for 10 seconds and then thrown away.

And I thought, oh, this is fantastic.

And then I was on an online discussion somewhere about this, you know, and

it's always dangerous to read the comments, but I was reading the comments

and a person from the disability community said It can be critical for

people with a disability who can't.

Bring a cup to their mouth to have a straw to be able to drink through.

And I, and, and that, that community was gonna be affected by this.

Yes.

Yes.

So there are, uh, some reasons why some people would need a straw, but,

um, that I think that, you know, the mindset is that, um, maybe most

people don't need it, but those who need it, we could be more tolerant.

For this kind of behavior.

Like, you know, I spent the morning with my dad at the hospital to

do some medical checkups and, uh, well it was quite, um, extensive.

So I spent like, the whole morning and because I have, uh, the climate mindset,

so I was really nervous because I see all these plastics, you know, all this,

all this waste and all this thing.

But I think it's knitted.

I don't know.

Um, I think it's knitted because, um, if you don't take all these precautions,

you know, people make may get I because of, uh, disease spread and all of that.

So I guess that in some circumstances, uh, these are knitted absolutely for, uh,

sanitary and infection control reasons.

However, years and years ago, I worked in the hospital for 23 plus years.

When I first started, I.

They had.

Autoclaves, they still have them, but they had autoclave machines that

sterilize equipment and they had that hard plastic melamine, like our telephones

used to be made from and dishes and you know, that really hard colored plastic.

They had things like basins and.

Like stainless steel tools, which they still use in operating rooms, and they

still run them through the autoclave, but they used to have kits, all these

trays, and they would be wrapped up not in plastic, but they were wrapped

up in green, um, draping material, green hospital draping material, and

they'd be taped with masking tape.

And if you needed a tray to put in sutures or you needed a tray to put in

an IV or something, it was a, a cloth.

Kit that was handed to you and you opened it up and everything

inside had been sterilized.

And then when you were done, it went into a bin and it went back

down to the, um, the, the area where they did the sterilizing.

And so the, it provided jobs mm-hmm.

For people who did that.

And it was far, far, far less waist.

Yeah.

But of course now things have gotten smaller.

More efficient.

But you know, you watch somebody open up and on a hospital,

you watch them open up a kit.

Mm-hmm.

And nine times outta 10, there's a good third of that kit that is not even

needed for that particular procedure.

Mm.

But because they have to open an entire kit.

Mm.

Everything else gets thrown out.

It's disposable.

I have heard people talking about going back to washing the gowns.

And using cloth gowns, cuz those things lasted for years

and years and years and years.

Mm-hmm.

Instead of the paper.

Paper gowns that we are so used to now.

So there's, I think there's a lot that could be done in the hospital system.

Um, yeah.

Well you've been working there in for over 23 years, so you must have,

I mean, if that's, uh, if you go to hospital, you might be quite upset now.

Yeah.

I don't work there anymore, but I do.

I, when I was finishing my career there, I do.

I do remember how frustrating it was, and when my kids were little, I used to hang

up a bag in the staff room and I used to ask the nurses to put in anything that

looked interesting, that looked safe, that was clean to take to the daycare

and the preschool because, and the kindergarten class, because they would use

a lot of those little thingies for art.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, because there's lots of little bizarre shaped.

Things that are just gonna go in the landfill so people might as well get used.

Yes, yes.

And that was 20 something years ago that I was doing that.

But I mean, people are trying in their own way to, to do things, but.

It's easier in some industries than others, for sure.

Yes.

But we're digressing a little bit because we started, we started with,

um, talking about, you know, uh, people that don't ha share the same mindset.

Yes.

Well, and, and that that can be true though, because some people don't care.

They just throw everything out and others are like, oh, we can

save this for something else.

We could use this for something else.

Yes.

But some people might also think that, you know, If I changed

my behavior, it doesn't, it would not make a big difference.

Like you said, yo uh, you went to this, um, uh, to this reception

and they have all displays and, and calories, and they said, oh, well,

it's made of corn and whatever.

And I believe that it strongly believe that, that it's, it's the solution

and, uh, it's the best solution.

And, um, it, it wouldn't, it's not that big, you know, it

wouldn't make a big difference.

Yeah, and, and what was sad about that for me was that there

were only about 35 people there.

Mm-hmm.

It would not have taken a super long time to run the sanitizer and to

wash 35 plates and sets of cutlery.

Like really, it would not have been a big hairy deal, and it would've

saved that stuff that yes, while it is compostable, it was all

dumped into a plastic garbage bag.

And I don't know.

Where it ended up.

Yeah.

But see, I think that they have the same mindset.

The thing is that they don't, I mean, you both have the same, the

same climate mindset as you call it.

Yes.

But you don't a agree on the way of, you know, of of, of applying

this mindset, uh, in real life.

So that's, um, that's a disagreement.

Not on the mindset, but on the operational side, I would

say yes, perhaps that's true.

That's true.

Yeah.

Good point.

So that's e that's easier, I would say.

Um, that's, that's easier to, to, uh, to work around.

Um, now, um, maybe , that's easier to have a conversation because at least you agree

on the, on the end goal of dis behavior.

So maybe you're wearing different strengths of glasses

or different colored lenses.

Yes, probably different colored lenses would be a better analogy.

So, so what do you notice?

I know you have a climate mindset.

What do you notice around you that you wish was different?

Oh, Wow.

, so, so, so many things.

Um, people stop driving cars because, um, a lot of times, especially

in Paris, , , we don't need cars.

And I just, I'm just upset when I see.

, one person in the car.

That's, that's really, that's something I don't understand.

It's so much waste, waste of, of, uh, of money, waste of space.

And, uh, it's so polluting.

So that's something I don't understand, but.

many, many, many years ago, uh, and we're talking about, wow, over 20

years ago I was working in Jakarta and at that time Jakarta was very,

very polluted and still is actually, Jakarta is so unlivable today that day.

I don't know if you are aware of that, but uh, it's, Jakarta is, um,

is the capital city of Indonesia and the city is doing so badly.

It's, um, it's not only very polluted, but also it's sinking.

Literally sinking.

Oh, so the, oh, Indonesia has decided to build another capital

city somewhere in a safer place.

A safer, but, , coming back, uh, to, you know, my experience 20 years

ago, , I was working there and I noticed that that still kids on the

sidewalk getting strangers cars and.

I ask, yo, that's three words.

You know, why, why are they doing this?

This is really, really strange.

And the driver, the driver that was driving me around was explaining that,

you know, that they have this policy in Jakarta where, uh, there's a fine if

there's one single person in the car.

So what, some kids, because.

Um, at that time they are, they, uh, they love slums and, and very,

um, very, uh, very poor families.

And so instead of going to school, they send these kids to get into people's car.

and the driver of the car, I think it's a better solution because

it's cheaper to pay a kid than paying a fine, you know, that's so.

I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I'm, yeah.

I'm starting to tell you that I'm, I've started telling you that I was upset

when I said one person in the car and then, and then I'm sharing the story.

Well, but that's taming the system.

That's not putting on a set of Yes, yes.

Climate glasses.

That's, yes.

Oh, here are some rules that are inconvenient to me, so let

me figure out a workaround.

Yes, yes.

That isn't really.

The point that helps them individually, but doesn't help the planet.

Right?

Yeah.

So I'm sharing something that made me upset.

I'm sharing one solution, but , I'm also sharing the, the, the, as you say,

the gaming around them, the solution.

So, uh, what else did I notice?

Uh, What about in your, uh, fashion industry?

Don't get miss started

Uhuh.

Oh, don't get miss started.

I mean, the whole industry needs to change.

That's, that's the thing.

The whole system of the whole fashion system is to change because, uh,

The business model of the fashion industry is wrong, is really wrong

because for a business to be able to , um, to sustain over time, , it

has to produce collections more and more and um, and push for consumption.

And this is really, really very wrong.

And so, I'm trying to work to find solutions and, uh, work with, , uh, with

independent designers to find solutions.

But the whole system is very, very wrong and it's, it's very frustrating

because, , the power balance is very un unequal and , So it's very

difficult, but we'll doing things.

we're trying to make things change.

So, and can individuals make a difference in that situation?

Like regular people?

What can we do?

I think regular people, what difference you can make is to consume better , and

also change your mindset and understand that . Fashion doesn't come cheap because

whatever, whatever comes cheap means that.

Some people or some somebody has been exploited.

So fashion doesn't come cheap.

Uh, you'll need to change often.

Pleasure doesn't necessarily come with consumption of, um, of things that you buy

and you don't necessarily need to owns.

Things, you know, to be happy or, and I'm not even talking about being

fashionable because I don't even know what it means to be fashionable.

So says the fashion person in Paris.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yes, yes.

But it's, um, so what, what individual vi ju can do is change the mindset

about money and understand that.

If you are paying for something fair, that very, very, very cheap price, it

means that somebody has been exploited.

The other thing is that pleasure doesn't come from owning things.

So there are a lot of different ways of, um, of, uh, having a new wardrobe or, or

swap things or being creative and, um, you know, a lot of things you can do.

I was just gonna say, I think that's a really important thing you just said that

pleasure doesn't come from owning things and I, I think there are some people that

figure that out really early and there are other people that never figured that out.

And it's so fascinating because, In following, I, I

am by no means a minimalist.

I would love to be, but I just have too much stuff.

But in following people who have done it, who have gotten rid of a pile of

stuff, and, and not only that, who don't intentionally don't accumulate

more things unless it's something they absolutely use and absolutely love.

They talk about freedom.

They talk about.

Having more of their lives cuz they don't have to look after stuff.

They talk about having.

Space and calm.

And it sounds like you get a whole lot from not owning things.

So what you just said really resonates with me.

That's great.

I'm happy because, yeah, when you think about it, yeah, when you want to move it

to go somewhere else, it's so easy when you don't own a lot of things and I get.

A lot of pleasure from getting rid of my stuff.

That's something I try to do is to give away, , a bag of stuff like regularly.

I haven't done it, um, lately because I don't have so much stuff anymore.

I'm, I'm talking about personally because I, I have, yeah, I have made a lot of

changes in my life lately, like, you know, for in the past couple of years.

Um, But I have, um, yeah, I have a little pleasure when I give a big bag

of stuff to the, I dunno what you call it, the goodwill, um, like Yeah, yeah.

Thrift, yeah, yeah.

To a thrift store, so, yes.

Oh yeah.

I'm on that journey too.

I have a big box ready to go, and I keep filling boxes and taking it down, hoping.

Hoping that what I'm giving away will become useful and helpful to somebody

else and not end up in the landfills.

Yes.

Like, you know, just right before we signed this call, I was a little bit upset

when I was looking at my microphone, you know, it was, um, it's a new one because,

um, because the old one was defective.

And I thought it was defective, so I bought a new one, but then I

realized that, oh, maybe it wasn't the mic, it was just a cable.

Then I bought a new cable, and actually I realized that the cable

was defective and not the mic, and now I have two microphones and it's.

Upsets me.

Yeah.

Well maybe you can, you know, give it away as a prize or something.

Yeah.

So whoever wants a, a perfectly functioning mic that can plug on

the, uh, usb, uh, just your write us.

I would, um, love to give away a very good, um, Uh, what is the brand?

But it's a very good mic.

You can hear it.

There you go.

You can do a draw or something.

Yeah, maybe they can leave us a review in exchange.

We'll make it a thing.

Oh, just write with us.

Yeah, leave a review and write us and then you can have a mic.

Because I'm upset of owning two mics.

Well, this went in a totally different direction, didn't it?

Uh, well, I think that's good.

I think, I think I'm going to continue to wear my climate, uh, mindset,

glasses and, and just be careful about, I need to be careful about judging.

Yeah.

Other people.

Who don't seem to or appear to have, because they might have other reasons

for doing what they're doing, and unless I have a conversation, I'm not

gonna know what those reasons are.

And it's really, really easy these days to just divide ourselves into those Yes, yes.

Good and bad camps, right?

The problem if we've start judging all the people and how they do things is that we.

We migrate more divisions instead of, um, yeah, of um, looking and

working towards the same goal.

And I was listening to a podcast yesterday, um, about this guy

giving workshops on how to make people who apparently disagree

on climate, , solutions and, uh, come up with a common solution.

What he suggests is to, instead of, starting to judge the other person,

is to think of things that we, we both the two parties agree, agree on.

And you may be surprised that when uh, you disagree on something they are love

, of places that two parties can agree on.

And then start and work on this instead of, um, focusing on them.

On the things that you could judge.

That's a great place to end this.

I think we could all, we could all try and do like the workshop guy does.

At least I could.

I think that's a really good, uh, thing that we could all do

as an action is to try and build bridges and uh, and less divisions.

Yeah.

We don't need motivations.

No.

No, we don't.

Thanks leaky.

This was great.

Take care everyone.

Thank you.

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