Synopsis:

Today my guest is Kathy Borys Siddiqui, she is the founder of Active Action and she works with organisations, helping them support their staff, specifically with intercultural training and family support. She was a panelist speaker at the HR event held in March on how organisations can better support their staff on split family assignments and today we are going to be continuing our conversation. 

If you are listening and you are the spouse of a staff or a staff member yourself, this conversation may correspond to some of the concerns you have about the support that you receive from your organisation and we would love to hear from you if any of what we are saying is resonating with you.

If you are in a role supporting staff, I hope this conversation gives you ideas on how and why you need to increase your staff support. 

What you will learn:

The importance for organisations to undertand that staff are relocating for the job and therefore that they, the organisatioins have a responsibility towards the whole family unit, whether families are accompanying or staying in their home countries. In doing so, they will retain their staff longer. 

What do some organisations do? 

What kind of data should organisations track? Why? 

What can employees do to advocate for themselves?

And that's where my passion sparked for supporting spouses and partners. And this was about 13 years ago when I first arrived to Denmark, and companies were saying to me, you know, we're not going to really invest a lot of in this particular group or investing in our employees. So I had to put it sort of on a back burner. I was always pushing for more support for spouses and partners, but I focused a lot during those years, and I still do, on training in intercultural awareness and communication, so more so for the employees. And as years have been moving along and passing, I see that corporations, companies, universities, so those are, most of my clients are focused, focusing also more and more now on the spouses and partners. So including them in some of the training, thinking about what can they do better to make the spouses and partners feel included, seen. And of course, they're also now connecting the dots and seeing that if the spouse and partner is happy, is seen, is included, that allows them most likely to have their employees for longer because they will be anchored in a different way. Right.

They will see that their family is also seen and valued. So of course the commitment to the company is different when you feel that your whole unit, not just you, is recognized by your employers. So I work with intercultural awareness, communication, but I also work with well being. So there are different spheres of well being that I work with. I work with purposeful habits. I work a lot with imposter syndrome, especially in academia. So it's a topic that's more and more relevant here in Denmark. It hasn't really been talked about so much, so we see more and more interest in that.

I work a lot with trust, so all the topics that I work with are underlined from a cultural aspect, but trust at work. What does it mean to us coming from different backgrounds? So there's more and more reference also to, you know, how can we make our employees feel more welcomed? How can we make sure that they feel that they belong, that they are included? So I think the whole sphere of diversity, equity and inclusion has also opened up the conversations for us that are bringing in the cultural aspect of families and internationals. And I think it's great. So I wear a couple different hats. And of course, I also work with the support of families and spouses and partners. Now, more and more Denmark is opening up to that, and they're seeing that they have to do that, that they cannot just look at only their employee. Right.

It's interesting, because I was going to say, like, at the very beginning, you said when you moved, you found it strange that they. That you were left to your own devices and that the family wasn't included. Did you feel in your gut that the family needed to be happy so that the staff would be retained longer and Beverly, well, at work or, you know, was there something else that you were like also, no, this is not the right way about it.

I think, you know, you and I, we talk a lot about perspective. So as an international, my perspective on this was. Right, okay. I'm coming in to a new country, a new culture. And of course, I'm aware that there are certain things that I have to take the lead on and take initiative.

As a spouse. As a spouse.

As a spouse. And also, even if someone is single, right. When we move abroad, learning the language, right. Even the basics, that's sort of on us. Right. We're entering a place that has been around and has functioned without us. So we're the newcomers. So there are certain things we need to do.

But I think I've always felt that when companies move an employee, and I've often had these conversations where companies have said, why is it all on us? And I ask them, well, why is this person coming? Then they say, well, we're hiring them. And then I say, well, there's your answer. Right. Most likely for many of these individuals, this probably would not be their place if it wasn't for the job. So there is a big responsibility that the companies have if you decide to hire someone and that person has family. And now it depends on what the family dynamic is. Whether the family stays in a given hotel country or their homeland, or they come along with the employee to the new host country. It is a package, right? I call it a unit.

We don't just pluck out the single person. They have a life. They are connected with individuals that accompany them in their life, in their lifestyle. So as a company, I think it's important to recognize that we have seen what the consequences are when companies don't do that. We have seen the broken contracts. We have seen unhappy employees. We have seen that what a lot of times companies want to have is have these advocates that go out and say, you know, this was a great experience, and that doesn't happen. Right? People come and they leave and they're unhappy.

So I think more and more companies are recognizing that, you know, they have to look at the broader scope of what it means to hire international talent, and, of course, what it means to retain that talent, because that's the other side of the coin, right? We can promote cities and countries and companies and have this flow of people, but what does it mean for individuals? What does it mean for their well being? What does it mean for the companies and their culture? And, of course, companies look at also their profit. What does it mean for them when it comes to profit? They are losing immense amount of time and money when they hire in, relocate, and then people leave. Right. So it hasn't worked as I think people thought it would, that if we just focus on one, then everything will work out. It needs to be a broader scope, as I said.

I mean, I've heard multiple times, you know, packages are cut to save money. But that might be a false kind of logic where they're saying, oh, we can't afford. Like somebody was telling me the other day, yeah, in my company, they used to pay, if there was a split family assignment, they used to pay for the spouse to go once a year or whatever, that was cut. And I think that's a, you know, it's a focal cule, as we say in French. You know, they're calculating it wrong. They think that by cutting that they're saving money, but actually what they're doing is, you know, maybe potentially, well, we know it, but they're increasing the unhappiness and the decreasing the wellness of the staff by keeping them apart. And somebody said to me the other day, I just, he said, he said, I can afford the ticket. That's not a problem.

It's just, I want to know they care. I want to know that they also see it, that they're asking something of me that would not be required if I was in the same country. And so I think, but then how do you, how does a person change a company wide culture?

Yeah, that's such a good question. Right. And there are a couple things that come to my mind. First, what you were just saying. I think that, you know, in the past, this cutting of packages, I think it's a band aid solution, as I call it. I don't think it's a long term solution that is good or profitable for all parties involved. And that's something we're seeing, that a lot of times the companies are looking more short term than long term. I think also understanding what it means to hire international talent is maybe not so clear a lot of times what it involves, what it takes, this aspect that you said of, I think all employees want to feel that their companies care.

And how companies do that, of course, may vary depending on their company culture and what the ratio is of internationals versus locals and all of that. But I think the awareness of what it means to have an international department or company, I think that needs more talking about, more discussions, more learning, more curiosity. And I think that's the key. And it's difficult, I think, for companies to change their cultures, their mindset. It's a really long process. It takes all involved. Right. Usually everyone looks to the leadership, and I would say that's probably where we would want to start and have these discussions, how they see this, what it means to them, what are the benefits? What are the challenges? I think oftentimes that's overlooked.

What are the challenges? What could be a challenge. Right. How would we approach this? Discussing things that aren't necessarily happening yet, but preparing ourselves a bit more for that. Right. What does it mean? And talking to people who are internationals and locals. So talking to your staff, having discussions, that's where I think a lot of times the discomfort may lie a bit. Right.

Because who wants to talk about challenges? Right. You're new hired, you want to come in strong, and you hide your challenges, especially the family ones, because that's not going to put you in good favor with your employer.

Right? No, no. And that can also seem complicated. Right? Oh, okay, we're. Or even during interviews, okay, we're talking to someone, oh, that seems a little bit complicated. Maybe we'll look for someone where the situation is a bit easier.

Right, exactly. And I think companies preempting that and acknowledging these are the challenges we think you might face, I mean, that's saying something a lot about organizational culture. And the other thing that came to mind as he was talking was, you know, perceived organizational support that's linked to staff commitment. So it's not only the actual company support, it's also the perceived one, is when they can perceive that there is a culture of support. I think that makes a huge difference. What have you seen in terms of staff geographically separated from their partners and children in the organizations that you support?

So that's interesting also, because some of my clients are starting now to actually venture out and say, okay, let's do a survey. Let's ask our employees, our staff, how are they living? Are their spouses and partners with them? Are they split location, families? And they have been surprised themselves at the results, and they have also been surprised that, okay, we had no idea. So opening it up a bit and actually gathering information, I think, is also key for companies to know. What's the percentage of people who have a spouse and partner? A lot of times I have come across that companies don't even know that. They don't know if someone has a family member that they're traveling with or if their family member lives in a different country, are their kids involved? So I think all of this is quite valid for the companies to know in order to actually proceed and think about, okay, what can we do. How can we assist? What kind of support do they need? Does their staff need? I think the worst thing we do is we assume and when we don't have these conversations, we don't really have accurate data. Right. We don't know because it may turn out that our company.

Wow, okay, we are half and half. We're split. We have half of people who are single and half who have families. So now we need to think about how do we support them. So I think communication is really the key. And honesty. Right. Because we also need the employees to be honest about that.

This is our situation, and the more I think we open up about it, the easier it will be to provide the right kind of support and the support that will be utilized. Instead of companies saying, well, we have this package we're offering, but it's not really being used, so let's just cut it. And then what that means, let's cut the support, basically, in translate. Right. And then we have the unhappiness. So it goes in a circle instead of maybe, you know, being more of a detective and really zooming in on what the needs are.

Yeah. You, you. One thing that's come up in our conversations is academic staff. The amount of academic. Well, I suppose the amount is the right word, that it happens in academia. And it's true. I mean, I've seen interviews where the dad was in the US and the mom was, I think, in an african country, and then they were going to swap, so he'd gone to do a master's. Then the year after, they were going to swap and she was going to go to do further studies.

And it's common, right, that people go to other countries to do a master's or a PhD or postgraduate studies and their family, their partner and their children stay in the country, the home country.

Yeah. And I think what people don't realize when we talk about dual career couples, I think the misconception is that dual career couples travel together and then one of them will always be looking for a job because it's quite rare for both to be hired in the same city in the same country. I think the misconception here is that that also means that more and more people do live in a split location type of way, as that's your focus. Right. Because if we have a dual career couple and one already has a job and maybe the other one does also, but then they get a great offer, as you said, in academia, to do research or to do a PhD, to do a master's or to, you know, lecture, then they will go and we will have a family that is in different parts of the world.

Yeah.

So I think, as we've talked about on the panel, the understanding of international families needs to change, you know, for people to understand that. Again, it's a broad spectrum of what kind of families, families do we have? And then, of course, we also have patchwork families where they are connected to other people that may be living in completely different parts of the world. And how does that work? So it's not necessarily just a nuclear traditional family that we automatically may think of where our biases kick in. Right. So it's quite interesting to start, you know, raising the awareness that we always say the world is moving fast, we're global citizens, but everything is moving fast. The types of families we have, what culture means to us, what does it mean to be an international, what does it mean to be a dual career couple? I think a lot of people aren't even aware of how many. And I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking you might be able to say how many people live in a split location way correctly.

Their estimated ten to 20% of Internet of expats are in split location. But these numbers are old ish. There's no tracking. It's extremely difficult to track migrants. I mean, we're talking very high proportions, probably.

Yeah.

And. Yeah, and then those who are at home in their home country and only one relocates that. I mean, who knows? It's pretty much.

Yeah, yeah. But I think we need to be, all of us, more vocal about that. This is something that exists, this is real. This is how people do live. And not necessarily, you know, for forever or for. But. But it happens. And I think.

I think if we don't discuss this, if we don't raise that awareness, the companies also, you know, they don't think of that. I think there's a lot of thinking in a very traditional way of what it means to hire in internationals.

Yeah. That they stop work at whatever time it is and then they go home.

Exactly.

But I think one of the things that's come up in conversations for me is like that if a staff is unaccompanied, that they potentially don't integrate into the local community, that they feel lonely, that they maybe keep themselves more to themselves, that half their brain and half their life and half their heart or most of their heart is stayed with the family back home, or that they're torn between their work and the demands of their family life, that they cannot have the time or the you know, the setup doesn't allow for them to fully be in each of their roles, work role and family role. But you've seen something in culturally as well, haven't you? And that that can lead to misunderstandings in terms of, like, well, somebody may not have a family to go home to in the evening and maybe works longer hours and. Yeah, and then that creates all sorts of things within the team, so.

Exactly. You know, it obviously depends on what culture we're in and what the work ethic is like. But I have had these examples where there was a lead on the team that, you know, his family was back at home and he would work in the evenings. And of course, in Denmark, we're quite particular. I always do the disclaimer, it depends on your position and it depends on the company because, no, not everyone in Denmark goes home at 04:00 and picks up their kids and plays with them or goes to do sports. Absolutely not. You have people that are in managerial positions that work longer, and they don't do that. So I always want to, you know, get rid of that myth.

So it depends. It depends on your role, it depends on the company. But a lot of times, if you are working in the office, usually you will be off around four or sometimes on Fridays, might be earlier. And you do not expect your manager to write you emails at 07:00 in the evening or call you with work issues or challenges. Absolutely not. That's not something that's common here. So when that arises, people think, okay, well, this is strange, and it can cause a lot of conflict. And in that example, it was someone, he was here on his own, his family was back at home, and it was a big issue that had to be resolved.

And for him, it was strange because he was also used to working in a different way, where this was common, that this was quite normal. So it can have a huge impact on, well being, on work, on conflicts, on the cultural aspect of the company. And again, it always goes back to our communication. Right. What our expectations are, if I think we are more honest, everybody with each other. Well, this is, you know, we're curious. We would like to know the psychological safety, the trust aspect, if that's there, if people feel more comfortable saying, you know, this is how my life looks right now, and this is what I'm dealing with. I think people are able to make things work in great ways.

Right. But, yeah, there's that element of just putting yourself out there, being a bit vulnerable, but also trusting. And the companies really following up on when they say you know, we are here to support. You're important to us. We see the value in your skills and talents. How can we assist you? Beautiful.

And then to have that psychological safety, that is going to be okay. That's okay. And that the acknowledgement that is challenged. Have you seen any organization do any of this specifically maybe for frequent business travel or split location? Not really.

Huh. You know, not. I don't want to say that they don't, but the ones that are more and more curious, I also find that they're more and more open. So they're saying, you know, what is happening? Tell us. We want to know. We want to be able to help out. We want to be able to assist you. And I think that's a great message.

I haven't heard so many actually talk about split location. And again, I think it's because they don't know. I don't think we've come to that place where people who are being hired are very open about that personal aspect of their life. And companies, I don't think are there yet where they're also comfortable with saying, you know, well, tell us more about what your life looks like, not just the aspect of work, but as an international, what does that mean? You know, how are you living your life? Yeah, so I. Yeah, but I have definitely, I can see a change where the corporate clients and also universities are looking at how can we really be of assistance? What can we do to retain this talent? So that's opening up. And I think they will have to be looking at a variety of aspects of the international life if they want to make this work. And I know that they have to make it work. For Denmark, for example, we need international talent.

There are simply not enough skilled employees to fill positions that we have. And so internationals are that group. And, you know, we have to look at what does it mean? What does it mean to be an international? And how that translates to people's personal lives as well. Right? Family lives.

Yeah. Well, I hope this conversation kind of starts something in listeners minds of whether they're, you know, whether they're in an organization and sort of seeing what data could be collected or what questions could be asked in terms of staff needs and self wellness and retention, but also for the employees or their spouses themselves. Right. To advocate for maybe a spouse's group or some sort of a communication from the organization or asking for support. Do you have any ideas of how employees could advocate for themselves if they're on split location or frequently business traveling?

Yeah. What I find, and I've always kind of pushed for is, I think that when we say the responsibility of the companies, right. Or the employers, that's one thing to make them aware to, you know, with means that they have for them to allow to support. But I do think, as you said, it's also important for the employees and the, and the partners and spouses to, to also say, we would like to participate, I think that's a necessity. So if we have them speaking up and saying, you know, we're looking to you, but we're also very willing and able to take the lead if we have some sort of support. So it's not all put on the companies. We have seen spouse and partner programs where in many companies where the company supports in a way where they might provide the space and that can be virtual or physical, right. Where they organize, help organize, but then they leave it up to the spouses and partners to also go with topics or the needs they have for meetups or discussions.

So I think we have to equal it out to, if we introduce this and we say, this is how we live, we would like some support to then be willing to follow up and say, what kind of support do we want? What is it that we're looking for? And I think the more that we have of that, the more conversations and also openness with each other. I think that will be very helpful. Definitely. I mean, you know, better than I with split location, I think the support, I would think, is even more important. Right. To know, okay, there are other people living like us. What are they doing? What challenges do they have? How are they solving them? And then also talking amongst each other, but also bringing it to the companies and saying, you know, the sharing of knowledge, the sharing of experiences has done great things for different companies, for different, you know, employees and groups to be able to replicate it or change it a bit and see how does that work for our group, right. Because we don't always have to invent the wheel.

We can use the experiences of other people. But I think it's so relevant to know that, you know, you have support, that there are other people who, like you, are facing similar challenges. I think we have to have that. We can't do it alone.

Yeah. Because I suppose it's not really a topic of conversation that comes up at work. Right. I mean, you're working and then you might not necessarily share that like you're, you know, that your partner's back in another country or something. But I think it can be shared. It's not shared necessarily, but I think it can be shared. And once you say it, even if it's a passing comment of, yeah, you know, my wife or my husband is, is in x country and doing that today, or I'll see them in a few weeks or something. Just by saying that, you've opened up a whole topic of conversation where the other person goes, oh, mine is in another country too.

How do you guys handle it? And just saying that that's opened up a topic of conversation. The other thing that came to mind was the, like a family appointed person in HR or to have like a family support who may have collect maybe some family resources or things like that. And then consultants like us, right, who get called in because the organization does not have, and we've talked about this before, they don't have the expertise in house, but being able to maybe even train supervisors on your supervising international people, what is it going to mean for their lifestyle? Do they need a bit more flexibility for calling with. There's like a big time difference. Do they need flexibility on, on XYZ, whatever, on leave or leaving early? Are you even asking them? Yeah, I think there's a lot of things people can do, but I think, yeah, being more open and just, even just as a throwaway comment and then seeing who else in the team is.

Living the same or who has lived. Right.

Because.

Opening up the conversation. But I agree with you, I think also, you know, project based type of solution can also be, as you said, with us who are consultants. I've always said this, we don't want to take HR's jobs. I think if we can come in, assist, help, that's the key. Right. And create something together where then it's there and we can leave and go on to a different project. But to again, open up the perspectives from our point of view, what it's like to be an international, to help them out, to bring that perspective, because we do also find that a lot of times that the personal aspect may not be brought up, as you've said, as well to HR because there is a bit of a conflict. Right.

Will I be speaking about my spouse or partner at home with HR? This is my employer. This is the company. Do we necessarily want to bring that in and make ourselves, again, look vulnerable? We definitely don't have spouses and partners calling in the HR person and talking about how difficult it is. Most of the time they keep that to themselves and that can cause conflict in the relationships also for the spouse and partner who is at home, for the family, that whole aspect of well being so I think it's always good, just my personal opinion, to have people from the outside who can be a bridge.

Yeah. Yes.

And. Right.

Especially when, you know, hierarchy is involved and your manager might be, you don't, you want it to keep it confidential and that gives a distance to the. From the company. Right. It allows them to say, you, you go out to the external and then it doesn't have to come necessarily to us. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap it up? Because time's flying and then where people can reach you. And I'll put in the show notes, of course.

Fantastic. Yeah. I think what I would love to say is just that let's be more curious about our employees, let's be more curious about each other and allowing ourselves to really stepping out of the comfort zone. I think in order for us to make these types of post, you know, employment work, we have to both sides. It's the employees, the employers. We have to be a little bit, maybe uncomfortable to then feel very comfortable in the places where we're in. Not to be afraid of conversations, not to be afraid of asking questions. I think sometimes we think, oh, we just won't ask.

That's easier. We'll sweep things under the rug because there is a fear of what might. Might come up for both sides. But I think we need to move past that because we are living in a world where this is not going away. People will be working abroad more and more, and family structures will look different from what we have known in the past. We also need to be open and aware of that. So we need to have good communication and have these discussions and curiosity. Respectful curiosities really the key, I believe people are very welcome to contact me on LinkedIn.

I also have a website that will be undergoing construction, but it's still there. So you can also contact me through email. But LinkedIn is definitely the place where I am active and very open to connecting and having more conversations about this.

Forward to it. Thank you. Well, I'm looking for an organization that does this really well for split locations. So if you, or of our listeners know an organization that really does it well, I would love to talk to them and maybe have someone, an HR wellness point person, come and answer some of my questions and be, you know, a guy, a shining light on how they do it and how they were curious. So thank you very much for joining me today. And as a listener, if you've enjoyed this episode, please like it and share it. It'll help others find it and also be encouraged. Remember that wherever you are, wherever your partner is, you are not alone.

See you next time.

Thank you. Thanks.