A discussion about the nature of time and of God's eternity, especially about whether God's eternity means simply everlasting duration or atemporality. We also discuss theoretical physics, prayer, and Bruce Almighty.

Daniel Jepson.

2

Hey, good to see you again, Nathan.

3

Good to see you.

4

How you doing today?

5

I'm good.

6

My voice is a little

bit lower than normal.

7

I like it sounds good.

8

Yeah, I'm hoping it helps

me sell more profound.

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Yeah, it gives you a

deeper vibe all around.

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Yeah.

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That's what I'm going

for here, which is good.

12

And we need it today because

this is a pretty deep.

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concept.

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We're going to be talking about.

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It's as deep as they come, I guess.

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Why don't you introduce it for us?

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Where are we talking about today?

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We're going to be talking about the

concepts of time eternity and God.

19

Nice.

20

you have a little bit of

history with this topic.

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A little bit.

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I wrote my master's thesis

about 140 pages, I guess.

23

Um, the relationship between God and time.

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So I'm going to be plagiarizing

myself a little bit.

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I expect quotes and, uh, footnotes

will, there'll be quotes,

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but I'll be recording people.

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I quoted in here, like a Guston announcer.

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No, no, no.

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I'm saying you should quote yourself.

30

Well, uh, yeah, usually you want to quote

people who have some sort of authority.

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Maybe not.

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All right.

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Cool.

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So gods.

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eternity and relationship

time and all of that.

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Well, let's dive in.

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We've been talking in the last few weeks.

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About knowing God.

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And we've taught the first week.

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If you remember right about the ways

we might know God in the second week,

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we talked about the problem of knowing

God, because he is so transcendent.

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From our universe and so

different than what we are.

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So how can our knowledge be.

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True about him.

45

the last episode we talked about God

and his relationship to the universe.

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And today we're going to expand upon

that by thinking about one part of our

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universe and God's relationship to its.

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And that is the concept of time.

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few things that are more commonplace

to us and a deeper part of our life.

50

Then the way we experienced

time, but I think God doesn't

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experience it the way that we do.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So this is going to be a mine.

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It's going to be a mind bender episode.

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I think.

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Yeah, maybe.

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So, Let's let's kind of talk about.

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Time.

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you start us off with the definition?

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Maybe?

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Well, like Augustan said, I know what time

is, but if you asked me what time is that?

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I can't tell you.

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but I think we have a common sense

notion that time is kind of like

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this arrow that stretched out.

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Uh, both backwards and forwards of

where at a certain place upon that.

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I think that's the way most

people would conceive of that.

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.

I remember in college, one of my friends came out to me, a guy that I

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was pretty close with and he, he said,

I think I have a definition of time.

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And I said, oh yeah.

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He said, yeah, the progression of entropy.

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Well, that's one way to do.

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I thought that was a pretty

good definition at 18.

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I dunno if he got that

somewhere, but yeah.

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I thought that was pretty good.

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Yeah.

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I can see that.

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More, especially, I'd like

us to focus on the idea.

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Of eternity.

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Because I think eternity will help us

understand time a little bit better.

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Now we talked about Psalm

90 verses one through two is

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kind of laying the foundation.

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Where, some of the things we'll

be talking about, why don't you go

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ahead and read that if you would.

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Yeah.

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It says, Lord, you have been arch

welling place throughout all generations

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before the mountains were born, or

you brought forth the whole world

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from everlasting to everlasting.

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You are God.

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That idea of the Arbor lastingness or

the eternity of God has always been

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a part of the Hebrew or Christian

understanding about who God is.

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The question that has come about,

though, when you think more about

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it is what exactly does that mean?

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That God is eternal.

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And in particular, that

can mean one of two things.

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That'd be more, but this is the

way it's usually thought of.

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One can be that God is everlasting.

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In the sense that he has always been here.

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He exists with time, the same way that

we do, he experiences at the same way.

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But he had no beginning in time.

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So he extends backward all the way.

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The extends.

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Forward all the way.

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And that's often when people

think Of God's eternity.

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The other way to understand eternity.

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Is to view God now that's existing along

the arrow of time and completing it even.

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But as existing outside of that, and even

originating that arrow of time as it were.

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And so we would call this.

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Uh, temporal you turn ality.

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Uh, is a negation word, right?

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So just like atheist is someone who

doesn't believe in God that like at the

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instance, Uh, temporal means, we're saying

that God does not experience temporality.

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The sequence reality that we have.

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Yeah, that's deep.

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I'm trying to understand what that could.

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Look like, because this gets at

kind of the problem of knowing

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God that we talked about earlier.

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Like all that we know is temporality.

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So what could that look like?

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Or, I mean, do you, do you have

a metaphor or an image of what

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that could look like our way to

think about that that can help us.

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Yeah, basically.

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If you apply the analogy.

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How we understand God not being in space.

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So when we talk about God

not being limited by space,

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but that he is everywhere.

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His omnipresence, we would say he

does not have spatial location.

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So he's not in Indiana versus Texas.

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And also he doesn't

have spatial extension.

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So he doesn't take up a certain amount

of space, but he's non bodied being.

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In the same way.

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To say the guys who turtle in this

way is saying, first of all, that God

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does not have a temporal location.

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So he is not in 1950 and he's

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And second of all that he does

not have its stitch and within

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time, In other words, duration.

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So when we think of other

things, for example, world war

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II, Lasted about six years.

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2 39 and 1945.

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And we can think of our own life.

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Our childhood or the years

that we were in college.

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Those things have a duration to them.

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So when we're saying that God is

our temporal the most basic sense.

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He is not located anywhere

within the time-space continuum.

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And he has no extension

in either time or space.

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So he has no beginning and no end.

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Exactly.

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Okay.

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But more than that.

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That he is actually outside of time.

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Yeah, and that's tough.

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Cause we like we experienced got in time.

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We said that they've had any

kind of experience with God.

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Like they can, they can

put a date and time on it.

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Sure.

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So.

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Trippy.

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Yeah, it's difficult because all

of our experiences are in time.

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And therefore, if God's not in time,

then . One of the other thing that's

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true then is that God does not

experience temporal sequence reality.

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One thing occurring after or before.

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Another thing.

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And along with that.

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God has not experienced

temporal causation.

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One thing existed before another

thing and therefore causing it.

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And that's a little bit more difficult to

understand, especially bras who that's,

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the only way we experience things.

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So does that mean that

like God is experiencing.

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Time all at once, like he's

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3010, like.

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All.

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At one time.

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or the things in the future,

he can actually use to affect

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the things in the past.

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Because he's outside of that.

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And I mean, we aren't, things

have to happen in order, right.

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Yesterday effects today, which

affects tomorrow, but God

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doesn't necessarily have to be.

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Working in I'm going to say no one.

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Yes.

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To that question because there's

actually two questions there.

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No, I don't think it would be good

to talk about God experiencing

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all things at the same time.

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Because for us that's just a sensory

overload, we can picture that.

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And that applies again, that God is

in time, but he has experiences all of

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these things simultaneously as it were.

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That's probably not the best

way to think about it because.

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It's still kind of assumes gods in time.

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Yeah.

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Kind of.

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They've been away.

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That's what I'm trying to get at.

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Yeah.

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As I was asking the question, I was like,

it's still kind of the same framework of

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like, okay, God's still experiencing this.

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You know, he might experience

it all in 30 seconds instead

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of, Ton of years, but right.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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But in the second part, I

think you're onto something.

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And this part will come back to

you because I think it can help us

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understand a lot of things about

the Christian life and about God.

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I like us.

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I don't think it's true of God.

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That causation only

works one way as it were.

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For him, we wouldn't really

say it works backwards because

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again, he is outside of time.

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But rather causation doesn't

have a time element to it.

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So from the way we experience it.

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there is something.

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that we are going to

experience in the future.

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But somehow God is weaving it.

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Ted.

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Impact my present.

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Possibly.

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Or more, there are certain things

about you that are just eternally true.

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So even apart from future or past.

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And that somehow God is able to interact

with that in ways that we experienced

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sequence reality, but he doesn't..

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We experienced them in one way.

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And we've you causation then in one way.

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But we don't have to

assume that that's the way.

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The God experiences or

deals with those things.

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All right.

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So let's talk about this

timeless tradition person.

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Then we'll kind of go back to,

explaining why I believe it's true.

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First of all the idea that God is timeless

in the sense of being outside of time.

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So not just existing everlastingly

of unceasing duration, but actually

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having a, an existence as our temporal.

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This is going back at least to Augusta.

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So Augustin's writing.

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You know, fourth century.

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And he has a long section

on God's timeless desk.

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And he comes to the conclusion.

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That God does not exist on the

scale of time, but that he created

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time when he created the universe.

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Let me just summarize a quote or two.

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The world and time both

have one beginning.

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The world was made, not in time,

but simultaneously with time.

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So, and then as he ridicules

the idea that God waited for a

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while before created the world.

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Another great thicker the church

Anselm in the 11th century.

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wrote this.

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That was not then yesterday

nor without be tomorrow.

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But yesterday, and today and tomorrow

though art, or rather neither yesterday,

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nor today, nor tomorrow without art.

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But simply thou art outside all time.

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But yesterday and today and tomorrow

have no existed except in time.

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But though, although

nothing exists without time.

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Nevertheless does not exist within it.

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So these guys are writing again, Augustan.

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You know, over 1500 years ago.

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And He was saying at the

time began with the universe.

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Both.

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Yes.

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Another great Christian philosopher and

time has Aquinas had the same position.

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And most modern theologians.

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Most Christian philosophers or

religion have also endorsed this idea.

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It's so interesting.

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That you said.

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I guess then ridiculed the idea

that God just waited around

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for a while before creating.

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Cause that's kind of

totally hive envisioned it.

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Hmm.

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don't know if I'm alone in that, but it's

kind of like, God just kind of existed

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and I don't know what they were doing.

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But they were hanging

out having a good time.

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And then they decided to create the world.

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Yeah.

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There's a funny story about that.

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The anecdote is that, an opponent

of Christianity was kind of mocking.

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And, said, well, What was God doing all

that time Before he created the universe.

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And supposedly according to the

antidote to Guston's answer was.

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He was taking time to create help

where people have irrelevant.

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Right.

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Questions like that.

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That was pretty funny.

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I think of that scene in the shack.

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William Paul Young's buck.

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Fictional buck where I don't even remember

the main characters name, but he goes out

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into that the shack there and meets the.

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portrayal of the Trinity and they're

all hanging out and friends and

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everything, and that's the vision

I get to them hanging out before.

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Yeah.

285

And that anecdote though is not true.

286

Yeah, it gets to never said that.

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Impact, what he said was the

question is wrongly stated because

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time began with the universe began.

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So there was not, a period

of God waiting before that.

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Is that true?

291

is it possible to know I see how the,

the question assumes temporality on God,

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which is why it's a faulty question.

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Irrelevant and irreverent,

I guess, or whatever.

294

But how can we really know?

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Or is it just in the realm of philosophy?

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How can we roll?

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You know what?

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That God is timeless.

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Yeah.

300

I think this is one of those where

the scripture is not going to give us.

301

A definitive analysis of

whether God's eternity.

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Means is everlasting this within

time or his art temporality.

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That is to go beyond what the

scripture wants to teach us about.

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God.

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But whenever Christian theologians

have begin thinking about the

306

implications of creation, like a

Gustin, they've come to this conclusion.

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So I think the reason that they've done

that partly is because it made sense.

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It was insightful to them.

309

The time would be part of

creation rather than creation

310

being within time as it were.

311

We'll come back to that idea.

312

But it made sense to them from

God's total creation of all things.

313

Because if that wasn't the case, then

you would have to ultimate things.

314

You would have God.

315

And you would have time.

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and they had such a high view

of God in his creation that

317

there's no, that can't be.

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If creation is creation of nothing.

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If there's only one absolute

being or one absolute substance

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or one absolute ultimate reality.

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There has to be God alone.

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There can't be two things.

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Time is this Dean alongside of God.

324

So that was the reasoning.

325

And then they also felt that

it worked better with the idea

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of God knowing all things.

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Because if God is within time, Say he is.

328

In the same time that we are.

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But he just existed all the way back.

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It becomes difficult to know how

he can know the future, perfectly

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like descriptors claim that he does.

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What's really interesting.

333

Is that modern physics now

agrees with that entirely.

334

Hmm.

335

agrees with what Agrees with the idea.

336

The time in the universe are not

distinct and that the universe.

337

And time began together.

338

Or that you cannot have

time without the universe.

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Oh, okay.

340

So they're agreeing exactly

what the Gustine are wrote.

341

You know, 1500 years ago.

342

Uh, this is Stephen Hawking.

343

He writes.

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Before 1915.

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Space and time were thought

of as it fixed arena.

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In which events took place.

347

But which was not affected

by what happened in it.

348

This was true, even at the special

theory, relativity bodies moved forces,

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attracted and repelled, but time and

space simply continued unaffected.

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It was natural to think the

time is space went on forever.

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The situation, however, is quite different

in the general theory of relativity.

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Space and time are now dynamic quantities.

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When a body moves or forest acts.

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It affects the curvature

of space and time.

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Space and time not only fat, but

also are affected by everything

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that happens in the universe.

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Just as one cannot talk about

events in the universe without

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the notions of space and time.

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So in general relativity.

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It becomes meaningless to talk about

space and time outside the limits.

361

Of the universe.

362

As one, physicist, Paul Davids puts it.

363

Time is not simply there, but is

itself part of the physical universe.

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And then he adds a God who did not

create time, create a space, neither.

365

Can you, boil that down?

366

help me understand Both of

those guys are saying sure.

367

One of the truisms of modern physics,

Because the theories of relativity have

368

been so well accepted and confirmed.

369

Is that time itself and space

themselves are not these empty

370

containers or this field.

371

In which the universe exists,

but they are part of the fabric.

372

So time and space are simply ways that

this universe interacts with itself.

373

Because of that.

374

It doesn't make any sense

to view time as an arrow.

375

And this some point within

that arrow, the universe began.

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Rather the universe began

and then time began.

377

sequentially or at the same

universe and time began together

378

at the beginning together.

379

Okay.

380

So there.

381

Because time is just one

aspect of the universe.

382

Okay.

383

so They're relative to each other.

384

Yes, because space and

matter exists, time exists.

385

Right?

386

Vice-versa.

387

Yes.

388

So if the universe did not

exist time without exist.

389

Okay.

390

Wow.

391

And you said physicists have.

392

figured that out, like with math..

393

Right.

394

It's just the general

theory of relativity.

395

which has been proven

now for a hundred years.

396

So That's Einstein.

397

Right.

398

Yes.

399

So you're saying that in the 20th century,

400

Albert Einstein confirmed

what Saint Augustan.

401

argued for.

402

know, in Northern Africa and

for third and fourth century.

403

Yes.

404

That's, that's kind of incredible.

405

Actually.

406

It is.

407

Wow.

408

It is.

409

Yeah, I Gustin had came

to the same conclusion.

410

He just didn't have the math.

411

But what he had was the

scriptures and then the logical

412

implications of the scriptures.

413

Wow.

414

that's really cool.

415

It is.

416

And I don't think people

talk about that very much.

417

Hm.

418

Yeah.

419

Okay.

420

So that's super fascinating.

421

How does that relate to proving

God is timeless or temple.

422

Well, The only way then.

423

Unless you rejected

modern physics altogether.

424

The only way to argue

that Haim is infinite.

425

Is to argue that the

universe is infinite as well.

426

But that is not a Christian position.

427

Krisha position is that the universe.

428

Is a creation of God.

429

It's finite.

430

It's not ultimate.

431

, I'm just thinking like,

Christian perspective.

432

There is a beginning, but the big bang

also sounds like it beginning as well.

433

Yes, the big bang is a beginning.

434

And it's for that reason.

435

That for the first half of the 20th

436

You had atheist physicist who

argued against the big bang.

437

So especially in the Eastern

European countries, which were

438

officially communist, they

argue for a steady state theory.

439

They argued that there was no big

bang because they knew that that

440

implied the idea of creation.

441

And they hated that idea.

442

Creation or at least

some, kind of beginning.

443

Right.

444

So at least to beginning.

445

Okay.

446

And the question that is left unresolved,

then from a natural perspective.

447

if you disregard the idea of

creator is of course, why and

448

what brought that into being.

449

and how do you get something

from nothing, right.

450

And they would say you don't get

something from nothing because

451

the matter would be eternal.

452

So, but somehow the matter.

453

Infinitely dense, a singularity.

454

Exploded into the university

that we have now, but the

455

matter itself was already here.

456

So if the matter was here,

then time would have been here.

457

No.

458

Time began with the big bang.

459

Okay.

460

But time, I thought time and matter.

461

This is so trippy time

and matter or relative.

462

No time and space a relative.

463

Time and space are part of the way the

universe is created at the big bang.

464

Okay.

465

Right.

466

So before that.

467

you would have to posit matter

existed unless you believe that

468

something arose out of nothing.

469

Which doesn't make rational sense

to us and certainly not scientific.

470

So you'd have to pause it matter was here.

471

but what we know about that matter.

472

Is nothing.

473

Because the laws of physics and

even the concept of time and space

474

itself, don't apply to that matter.

475

That's why it's called a singularity

because it's so singular.

476

There's nothing past that,

that we can't even think about.

477

Okay.

478

You said that they're Eastern European.

479

Physicists who argued for a

steady state model because.

480

the cosmos, having the beginning.

481

Can somehow point to.

482

The existence of a creator, right?

483

Now obviously many people today

who are businesses are not,

484

believers are not Christians.

485

but the steady state advocates

Knew that the idea of a beginning

486

of the universe, Mack of creation.

487

And they wanted to avoid that completely.

488

Wow.

489

Wow.

490

But then Einstein comes.

491

I was around Einstein comes

around and, Points to.

492

A.

493

math backed.

494

Beginning of the universe.

495

Right.

496

And actually, it was almost 40 or 50

years Before all the scientific community.

497

Came to a consensus and agreed

with that because there were

498

people who did not like the idea.

499

But eventually when they began

measuring background radiation of

500

the universe, the rate of expansion

of the universe, the evidence became

501

so conclusive that they had to.

502

So there's not really.

503

much weight given to

the solid state model?

504

No.

505

Okay.

506

Steady state.

507

Yeah.

508

Steady state.

509

Sorry, solid state is a computer science.

510

Okay.

511

Yeah.

512

The upshot of that is.

513

Again, That modern physics and Augustan.

514

Both agree.

515

Um, the universe had a beginning and that

beginning was also the beginning of time.

516

Therefore.

517

We're Christians.

518

It seems to me.

519

Almost inescapable to understand God's.

520

eternity as a non temporal.

521

eternity.

522

That he does not exist in time.

523

Like we do.

524

Time itself is a feature

of the created universe.

525

And he is above and beyond that, the

author of that, it's kind of like

526

if you were creating a video game, Or

you create a computer program, but in

527

this case, a video game, You have some

computer programming in college, right?

528

Yeah.

529

Yeah.

530

Yeah, that was your major.

531

All right, So you're creating a

video game and in this video game,

532

Things have to work a certain way.

533

So you're going to have the certain

physics of that universe, the

534

way things work in this universe.

535

When this happens and this happens.

536

And it was going to say

conditions, parameters.

537

But you yourself.

538

Aren't a part of that.

539

You can set conditions of

parameters within that video game.

540

That don't apply to you at all.

541

Because you are the creator,

you transcend those things.

542

And in the same way, I believe

that is a good analogy.

543

The guy could create things or parameters

and ways this universe works while

544

he himself is not bound by them.

545

Yeah.

546

And to kind of tie that into the

general theory of relativity, like

547

time in that video game, isn't going

to exist without the rest of the game.

548

Right.

549

You know what I mean?

550

Like.

551

The characters in that game, aren't

going to move around in time.

552

If the code hasn't been written

to actually have a game.

553

Okay.

554

I can see what you mean.

555

Maybe bad illustration, but no.

556

They can throw it.

557

You're just, you're just a lot

more proficient at understanding.

558

Computer creation that way.

559

So, yeah, I would be outside of the.

560

The game.

561

And.

562

I could pause the game and go

grab a sandwich or something.

563

'cause I'm out.

564

I mean, That's what God does.

565

I'm just saying like, I'm outside of it.

566

I don't interact according

to the laws of that game.

567

Right.

568

Or to give another analogy.

569

No analogy is perfect, but this one

also kind of helped illustrate the way

570

that creation works and the difference

between the creation and the creator.

571

I said that I'm writing a book.

572

And it's a book with a timeline.

573

There was a story I'm telling, right?

574

So maybe it's a story.

575

Of this family or this person

and happens over 30 or 40 years.

576

So I write a chapter about this person's

childhood and, I get to a certain

577

point, maybe they're eight to 13.

578

And at that point in time, Maybe

it said in a certain time periods.

579

So maybe that's 1993

when he's 13 years old.

580

At that point in time, I'm

like, okay, I've been writing

581

here for last three hours.

582

I'm going to stop.

583

And I stopped.

584

And I go and I make myself some coffee.

585

So we can think through some things more.

586

Uh, maybe answer a few

phone calls or emails.

587

And then.

588

Three hours later, I come back.

589

And maybe I'm in the middle of describing

a scene that goes minute by minute.

590

Now for me.

591

I'm not bound by the time I have this

story, I've taken a break from that.

592

I'm not in that timeline as it were.

593

I could begin writing a story.

594

As a teenager, right?

595

So I'm writing a story I'm 15.

596

And I'm writing a story

about someone like me.

597

So another teenager who's 15, right?

598

And I forget about the story.

599

Ah, this is stupid.

600

I've got other interests.

601

I'm interested in girls

and sports and all this.

602

And then 40 years later, When I'm 55.

603

I find that old story and

maybe one of my boxes, the.

604

The storage.

605

You know, the attic.

606

Uh, pick it up and I start

writing that story again.

607

And then the story of that boy

that I'm writing about is still 15.

608

Even though I've had this blog

period of say 40 or 50 years of gap.

609

So what I'm trying to

illustrate with this.

610

Is that.

611

There is a story inherent

to what I'm writing.

612

There's a timeline.

613

There's a way time works.

614

There's a sequence reality, but

that I am not bound to as a creator.

615

Because of that, I have

unique relationship.

616

To all that story and the

sequence reality of that.

617

And I could go back.

618

I don't know if this is the

way God's creation works.

619

But I can go back and revise

things that I wrote earlier.

620

Because I want to make that fit with

what comes in later in a better way.

621

But what are most fiction authors do this?

622

Hmm.

623

That may be going beyond a

little bit, what God does.

624

It's hard to say, but I

certainly think it's conceivable.

625

what you're getting at is,

an interaction between gods.

626

E each carnality and then

his sovereignty air power.

627

Right.

628

So there's an interconnectedness

in some of his characteristics.

629

Exactly.

630

And I think that's one area where

we can really think through this.

631

We tend to view God as knowing all

things before they're happened.

632

So.

633

Sometimes we feel then that

there are locked in as it were,

634

but that's not really true.

635

God doesn't know things

before they happen.

636

Because that's, again, a time

word, a sequence reality where

637

that he's not a part of, he

experiences them in a different way.

638

So.

639

His for knowledge, if you

want to use that word.

640

Doesn't lock things in.

641

It's more, he understands

things as they happen to us.

642

It seems like foreign

knowledge, but not to him.

643

Hm.

644

And the same way I think with prayer.

645

What are the big problems we have

with prayer is understanding how.

646

Our prayers could change something that

God has already set in place as it were.

647

Or how our prayers.

648

Of acumen could affect God's causality.

649

because within this world, two people.

650

How do I want to say this?

651

Within this world.

652

That's what we experienced.

653

When someone does something,

they're the one doing that?

654

No one else is doing that same thing,

except maybe come along to help them.

655

But We have to really step

back and say, but if God.

656

Is outside our normal way.

657

It can see me enough time and causation.

658

The maybe that's not true.

659

Maybe the causation of God and the

way he works within us and through us.

660

Is mysterious to us because we're

not in that realm of auto morality.

661

But it's only mysterious because we're

not there that because it's not real.

662

I'm not explaining that very well.

663

Oh, okay.

664

So you're saying.

665

For knowledge does not necessarily mean.

666

That it's locked in place.

667

Right?

668

It even got sovereignty does not.

669

Dissolve human free agency.

670

If we think of God is working

in time, the same way we do.

671

It is hard to understand how God can bring

about future results and future actions

672

while also allowing me real freedom.

673

But if we understand that

that's not how causation works.

674

Then I think we're left a little bit

with a mystery, but not a contradiction.

675

Um, and in the same way, You don't escape.

676

The problem of.

677

Human free will by moving away from

believing God, you make it worse because

678

if you move into atheism, Or naturalism.

679

You still have their problem,

but even it's even worse because.

680

What happens then?

681

Is that there really is

no room for human free.

682

Will.

683

On a totally consistent

naturalistic worldview.

684

And we've talked about that before.

685

It kind of ends up being a

little bit more deterministic.

686

Right, because what happens

within this universe is determined

687

by the laws of the universe.

688

The past is what produces The future.

689

Therefore, my present is based

upon my past by necessity,

690

by the laws of nature alone.

691

There's no agent outside of that.

692

there's no agent who can oppose that.

693

Kind of running out of words here.

694

Yeah.

695

Hmm.

696

So that's the idea and you can

look it up as so three or four.

697

We talked about that a little bit.

698

?

So you're saying that there is no.

699

Like our prayers can still.

700

Change the outcome of a situation.

701

Or God can still respond to our prayers

within our experience of causality.

702

I could see that being actually.

703

An encouragement to pray because it's

like, okay, God is outside of it.

704

He knows.

705

What's happening.

706

So I can go to God and

God can respond to me.

707

Right.

708

I think we should never limit.

709

Based upon our own understanding

of how causation might work.

710

Our appeals to God.

711

To intervene in certain ways and to help.

712

God is not someone.

713

So detached from the universe that

he does not respond to the people.

714

Within the universe.

715

In fact the opposite is true.

716

Just like his transcendence

allows him to be eminent.

717

Like light that emanates in every part

of this room, but it's not in one place.

718

So his eternity allows him

to be at all times equally.

719

He is always with us.

720

And he is with us everywhere.

721

That allows us to have great

competence that when we pray.

722

We're not directing thoughts to this guy.

723

We are directing our

thoughts and our appeals.

724

To a non bodily person who is here always

with us in every place that we are.

725

That's a humbling thought.

726

It's also a comforting thought.

727

Isn't it?

728

So the upshot of all this is that our

conception of God is way too small.

729

Usually when we think about

God and his eternity and his

730

infinitude and his transcendence

over all things, including time.

731

It should give us this desire to

know this God, as much as we can.

732

It should give us a competence.

733

But this God is worth attaching

ourselves to giving ourselves to.

734

It should give us this assurance.

735

That he cares about us because

he is right here with us.

736

Yeah, it's different than the conception

of God from, the Bruce almighty movie.

737

GFC that I did not see that.

738

So there's this scene.

739

Do you know the premise of it?

740

Yes.

741

So he's given all the power of God.

742

the only thing he can't do is.

743

counteract somebodies free will.

744

But at one point he gets a headache

cause he hears all these voices

745

in his head and it's prayers.

746

And so he's like, okay, well I

need a way of organizing these.

747

Let them all be letters.

748

And then his house like immediately

fills up with all the letters and.

749

And he's okay.

750

I needed to on email.

751

And so he gets, you know, all on his

computer and he's just working, typing

752

away at a million miles an hour, drinking

coffee, you know, with one habit typing

753

in another hand, clears out his inbox

and then immediately fills up again.

754

And it's just overwhelming.

755

that's a different model of thinking

about how God responds to prior.

756

Okay.

757

it's just making God busy.

758

God has limited time and well, if I'm

praying, but also everybody else and.

759

Nigeria and India and Russia and

Ireland are praying at the same time.

760

Like how's he ever going to hear?

761

My prayers, right.

762

Which feels very impersonal.

763

I know it's not right, but when

you see something like that, like

764

it can stick with you and sure.

765

Putting your subconscious, but,

it's very different than, okay.

766

God is present like light and emanating

here, and almost wants me to change

767

the format of my prayer to not just.

768

Ask God for things, but to try to.

769

Recognize his presence.

770

Yeah, that is already, I

mean, that's already true.

771

Right.

772

God is present in this moment.

773

And I can.

774

Recognize that.

775

And experience God right here and now.

776

Yeah.

777

And have companionship

and, Be in his presence.

778

or at least tune into his PR.

779

I mean, if we're always in his presence,

then the problem isn't necessarily.

780

when we don't sense, that's not him.

781

It's on us and I got

spiritual practice too.

782

Try to recognize that.

783

Should I turn on a radio.

784

You know, radio waves are always

here, but unless you stop and you

785

turn it on, then you I enjoy that.

786

The beautiful music

that's on the other end.

787

Yeah, that's a good analogy.

788

Thanks.

789

Bill Maher, who is a comedian,

but also in Melton, atheist.

790

one of his supposed to documentaries

where he interviews Christians.

791

And of course he chooses the most stupid.

792

And coherent was to showcase, um,

Anyway, he mocks the idea of a

793

God who could hear all the prayers

at once and respond to them.

794

That is a.

795

Immature understanding of who God is.

796

Christian thought has taught

797

The God is infinite, both

over space and over time.

798

And he is infinitely imminent

within both of those things as well.

799

So God does not have to take the

Heim to hear different prayers.

800

He doesn't process them.

801

sequentially like we do.

802

He is infinite in that degree

in a way we can't understand.

803

possibly.

804

He is infinite in that degree.

805

There is no limit.

806

And to understand him.

807

Like that movie, Bruce almighty,

it's actually an insult.

808

Yeah.

809

I'm into crisp understanding.

810

Yeah.

811

in that movie, at one point he gets

overwhelmed that he just says, control a.

812

Yeah, it was a select all.

813

And then yes.

814

And then have it happens because.

815

Everyone in a city, won the

lottery and You know, it's just.

816

So it is like, okay, how does

God think through, how does God

817

take time to process these prayer

requests and decide yes or no?

818

that's helpful because it's neat.

819

How something like God's eternity, which

can feel disconnected and hypothetical

820

at the beginning of the conversation.

821

Turns to something really practical that.

822

Is going to affect.

823

How we think about prayer and how we pray.

824

Yeah.

825

Yeah.

826

And I imagine a lot more.

827

My goodness, a lot more implications, a

bunch are coming into mind right now, but

828

that would take us down different paths.

829

But.

830

Yeah, how we think about God does.

831

Really matter..

832

Yeah, I think so.

833

I've seen in my own life, a lot of

the intellectual problems I've had.

834

Wash away.

835

What I understand.

836

And think about the bigger

picture of who God is.

837

In his infinity in his transcendence over

the way things work within this universe.

838

I can't explain them all,

but if I embrace it, yeah.

839

That this universe is created by

an infinite God who transcends it.

840

Then they begin to make sense to me.

841

at least I could be in

the place where I can say.

842

All right.

843

Just because I don't understand

something doesn't mean it's irrational.

844

Is simply means I'm not in the

epistemic position to understand it yet.

845

Yeah, just like a person in a two

dimensional world is not going

846

to understand how things work

in a three-dimensional world.

847

Yeah.

848

So.

849

Hmm.

850

That's what helps me.

851

Wow.

852

Well, thank you so much.

853

It's been a great discussion

on God's eternity and time.

854

And.

855

Theoretical physics.

856

And a prayer.

857

And Bruce all buddy and Bruce almighty.

858

Thank you so much.

859

My pleasure.

860

Bye.