You can hit targets, drive results, and still miss what actually matters. This episode examines the moment when performance metrics stop telling the full story—and the cost of not seeing what’s underneath. If you lead people, this is about the decisions you make when something feels off but isn’t obvious.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

• How strong performance can mask deeper personal risk in your team

• The difference between managing output and actually seeing your people

• What leaders often miss before a situation becomes irreversible

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Welcome to The Ray J. Green Show, your destination for tips on sales, strategy, and self-mastery from an operator, not a guru.

About Ray:

→ Former Managing Director of National Small & Midsize Business at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, where he doubled revenue per sale in fundraising, led the first increase in SMB membership, co-built a national Mid-Market sales channel, and more.

→ Former CEO operator for several investor groups where he led turnarounds of recently acquired small businesses.

→ Current founder of MSP Sales Partners, where we currently help IT companies scale sales: www.MSPSalesPartners.com

→ Current Sales & Sales Management Expert in Residence at the world’s largest IT business mastermind.

→ Current Managing Partner of Repeatable Revenue Ventures, where we scale B2B companies we have equity in: www.RayJGreen.com

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Then the next day is like almost like a Monday. She starts tagging me in these posts on LinkedIn. Hey, you know Marcus can kill my son, blah blah blah. Over and over and over. I'm like, oh my God. That was Marcus charm. He went from being the worst rep on his sales team that earning a $29,000 a year salary and no commissions because he had had no sales in seven weeks, was close to getting fired even though he had the highest activity metrics, and went from that to earning 12 promotions in eight years, leading a $195 million a year sales organization, and managing over 110 people at a fortune 500 company.

He is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, and he is a four time sales force top influencer for sales, and his frameworks have generated over $950 million for his clients. Now, this conversation went way beyond sales tactics, though, and we we do get into sales. But he told me a couple stories that I've never heard him share publicly, including one about a manager that he lost and the the guilt that he he carried as a result and what it taught him about the cost of leadership.

So if you manage people, um, salespeople or not, um, this one's going to hit different. So let's get into it. All right. Welcome to the show, Marcus. Really glad to, uh, glad to have you, brother. I'm to be here. I almost wish I hit record, like, ten minutes ago. Like we've been we've been riffing on so many things, and we've got I've got a whole list of topics that I want to get into with you.

Um, and we actually started this discussion a few minutes ago. We finally hit record. Wanted to dive in. What I want to start with is your sales story, um, your your sales story from individual contributor to a top exec. And, and oftentimes, like I had known you for a little while before, I realized the scope of the team that you were running and like, what you were doing as, as an executive and as a manager.

But it didn't start that way. Like you had an interesting, uh, start to sales. Talk me through week 4 or 5 in no deals. And your bottom performer and as as a salesperson and your and your story. What's it, what's it like? Talk me through it. Yeah, man. Well, first off, so I got into B2B. Sales didn't really know as.

B2B sales, to be quite frank, because I just, I was kind of paying the vision on basically helping build a startup division of a fortune 500 company. So I didn't see that as like, hey, I'm in sales, right? Um, it was also against my parents wishes as well because, you know, there are you're kind of prototypical come from China and Taiwan, high expectations or they're immigrants.

You're supposed to be a doctor or engineer. And I went into sales after I graduated. So there's already a couple things going against me now. Kind of fast forward in that role. For five weeks, I hadn't closed a single deal and I was getting really stressed, all stressed by my own performance. But like I saw other people in my team who I didn't think was working that hard and they were doing better than me.

Nothing. Not crazy, no, but they were always closing some deals. And here I am like, I'm like, man, I I'm close a single deal. Fast forward to, um, you know, week. It was like week 7 or 8. And, um, my boss pulls me into his office on a Friday afternoon at 4 p.m. and says, Marcus, you know, turns around, I'm going to have to fire you.

Oh, my God, I'm already doing terrible. I'm already outworking everybody. Like, I'm getting way more activity, way more cold goes in person. Cold calls at my activity, like metrics were out of this world but couldn't book a meeting, say my life couldn't close a single deal. And that was like a really pivotal point for me because I was blaming a lot of different reasons, you know, sources of why I wasn't successful.

And, uh, she said, so what are you going to do about it? And I'm like, ah, I guess I, I don't know. She's like, why are you always like, you've always learned pretty quickly, why don't you go and like, you know, you used to be a lot of books. Maybe there's some sales books or something. I'm like, oh, I guess that makes sense, right?

Do you mean to me and try to try to figure out how to solve a problem? So I, I went to the library and I got every single sales book and it just started like voraciously reading every single sales book, you know, there's some old school stuff or whatnot. But I started to realize certain things and I just basically I was not doing well now kind of fast for a little bit.

Right? I started to figure it out, and by a third month I actually hit number one. So it's like getting better results. Hit number one, um, end up staying number one for, um, nine months in a row was actually, you know, running a small team at that point. So I carry my own numbers. I run a small team. Right. Um, fast forward ended up staying in sales and sales leadership for just over 13 years of my corporate career.

Uh, I got to a point. My first eight years. 12 times. My first eight years, and eventually I was running a sales org over 110 plus employees. We did over 109 over 190 million TCV. In new business every single year. Total contract value at the same time because of the way the roles designed. I also was responsible for 195 million in a year PNL, the full PNL.

So I also had dotted line thousands of other employees in other parts of the org as well. That was a big part of my comp structure as well. So that was a lot of fun. And of course, you know, with all those roles, um, they're all super hard, but was fortunately hit number one in every single role. One, every single word possible, like presence club pretty much every single year.

Uh, a lot of fun doing that before I started my own business until the 19. So it's been quite a journey, but a lot of failing forward, doing really uncomfortable things to get to that point. There's there are a lot of.

Elements we've known each other for for years, and there are many parallels that we've had in sales, even in business like as we've been going before, well before we knew each other. And I think one of those is just like no sales background, right? Like, and not necessarily the profile you would expect of somebody to get into sales, but I think you and I are probably thinking something similar, like, hey, you can make some pretty good money pretty quickly as you're thinking about this.

So, so, you know, week seven, week eight, you go read the books, your wife challenges. You like a really good coach. That's awesome. Um, were there when you look back on that, where any of those books did any of them stand out and did like if you're a sales person listening to that story right now and you're in that scenario and hey, I'm going to go grab some books.

Did any of them stand out and actually make a difference?

What's really interesting is, um, you know, they all had like kind of, you know, little impacts here and there because they were like very tactical. But the one book that I stumbled across that had the most impact to me, to the, to the to this day, still that did not expect was something I thought was totally cheesy at the time, which was a Tony Robbins book, awakened the John within, and it was really funny.

Was it just happened to the library? Maybe they got misplaced or something. Basically, I stumble across in the sales section, this book. I'm like, oh, it's a cheesy guru guy, right? I think I remember that infomercial I didn't like. I'm like, so that's how I picked it up. And I was I was in a pretty dark place.

I was second guessing myself. I had major imposter syndrome. I didn't know I was called to be in sales. I had I was like pressure on myself to perform, uh, for myself. Uh, you know, I want to make my parents proud. But also, like, the girl is dating, she is a little embarrassed that I was in sales. And, you know, her, her parents were looking like, oh, you're in sales.

And they're like, look, they're very well educated. They're kind of like, what does this guy do? Who's this guy you're with? So I'm like, I need, I need to perform. I need to do great. And I picked up that book, Awaken the Giant Within. And what was really interesting about that book and and you could argue there's some sales principles in there, whatnot.

It's so simple. I say it, but it's something that really resonated was like, I'm like, okay, like taking personal accountability and ownership, you know, like that was so true. It's like having that mentality of like whether you win or lose, it's your fault. Whether you get great results or not, it's your fault.

That level of that, of that type of ownership is really key. The other key component was learning how my brain worked and how to rewire my brain. We grow up getting wired by the world, society, our parents, and everything else. So we grew up with these belief systems in our mind. We don't even question. We just say, this is how things are.

And this is not just religion. This is like everything in life. It's kind of like, you know, I was told, hey, you know, you work hard, you go to school, you graduate, you get a good job, you work for 40 years, and then you retire. Right? That's like a a made up rule. Someone told us right now, one of the most powerful things I realized inside that book was, if you don't like the answer, ask a better question.

And this is how you start to rewire your brain. So I'll give you a really, really simple example. So I remember I would be cold calling just really, you know, die for dollars if you will. I'll get my teeth smashed on the phone. They'd curse me. I yell at me, whatever. I hang the phone up and I'd be so angry and mad.

I'm like, oh, that dumb prosecutor is so stupid, blah blah blah, you know? And what I didn't realize was I was subconsciously asking myself questions that my brain was answering. And those questions were questions like, why is that prospect so stupid? Why are they the worst? Why am I boss the worst? Why didn't no one train me?

Why am I not getting any help? And because of those questions I was asking myself without realizing it. My brain would just give me these responses like it's the market's fault. It's my boss's fault. The prospect is a jerk. It's X. It's why I'm like, wow, that's really disempowering. And I realize, what if I reframed it to two different questions?

What if before my question was asked by my own brain, if I gave myself a different question, if I can reprogram my question to be something like, hey, what's great about this situation? What can I learn about this situation? Okay, what can I do differently, potentially to increase my odds of a better outcome on the phones?

It was interesting because when I started to do that, I started to be more solution oriented. So I So? So I think we're done. Oh, that's a good point. Well, you know what? Maybe I could be more clear to my value proposition. I could be better. Objection handling. I could be I could practice more. I can have better confidence.

So I asked different questions once I got better answers. So I actually started them. I even took a well posted note, and I wrote those questions now. Like what could be great about this? And I taped it to my mantra and I taped it to advisors in my car. And I taped my mirror and my my apartment and my dingy apartment in the mirror.

So this way, in these moments where I was in the bat, I was sort of spiral. I could look at it and it would trigger me to start thinking in a different way. But it was stuff like that which, you know, it sounds a little cheesy, but this starts to really plant a lot of seeds early on of how to think through situations in different ways, and I didn't really realize the impact until years later, until someone's like, you really think about these problems in a completely different way.

Most people complain about solutions. You are so quick and you move on so rapidly from failure. It's kind of wild. I'm like, it's because I asked a lot of better questions. That's all it is. I'm. I'm not. I'm not special. I just move rapidly from. I fail with that. No problem. Where did I learn? What can I do better?

Let's keep going. Which can be good and bad in some situations. Of course.

You've talked about work ethic. And so like in the in the context of limiting beliefs. Right. So say say what we're talking about potentially or what you're talking about is if you ask a better question, you get a better answer and you get to challenge some of those limiting beliefs that you have. That's right.

And, and kind of reframe the entire situation into something else. One of those limiting beliefs is may have been around work ethic, right. Like so from a sales standpoint, as you're into week five, six, seven and you're just cranking it out. And so it's probably wired into you or you're, you're, you know, you're you're raised with like a work ethic, like, and so you're just like hammering activity.

And it's not getting you to, to where you want to go. But my question is was if I work harder, I will get better outcomes. Was that a was that a limiting belief? And if it was, what is the role of work ethic in in sales or in business or in anything?

I used to always believe work ethic by itself was going to make me win at anything, and it was just because I grew up working really, really hard. So I saw, so I saw so I had these, um, um, these beliefs inserted inside me. As a, as a kid growing up, I saw my parents come with absolutely nothing. My dad worked his ass off 18 hour days, 6 or 7 days a week, never took vacations, had sacrificed so much, right?

My mom and him. And because they were able to build, you know, a comfortable middle class life from absolutely nothing, which I think was tremendous. And so I saw that and I was part and I did that with them. Right. So I was put to work at a young age. Right. And I was successful, you know, doing that. So I remember even like when I started having worked my, my parents sold the restaurant because they had a restaurant.

I went and got other jobs, like part time jobs that I would like be the best very quickly. Not because I was like talented, but I just was more effective and worked harder. So, for example, like let's just say like, um, I'm on my first job was, uh, selling Speedos in a Speedo store. That's like competitive gear.

I was a competitive swimmer growing up, so that made sense.

So used to be your LinkedIn headline, too.

It used to be at one point. So. Yeah. So most people, they would just sit in this retail store, sit at the counter, wait for customers to come, and then when they come, they just kind of just take an order and that's really it. Well, I was like, I would get bored first off. So I'm like, how can I I'm gonna work here for four hours after school.

I'm gonna maximize it. So like literally as customers came in, I was gonna ask for I was already up front saying, hey, how's it going? What brought you in? How can I best support you? What questions do you have? And then I'll share insights that was valuable for them. And lo and behold, because I was so consistent with this and so helpful in this situation, I always told everyone not because I was good at selling, because I was just trying to help someone.

Then I stand at a swim meet with a bunch of kids for 12 hours. I wouldn't even go to the bathroom because I couldn't leave the gear out. I said stand out and I'd be slinging Speedos for like 12 hours, right? I wouldn't eat and drink a single thing because I didn't want to go to the bathroom or sell lights out. I pack it up, I pack a truck up, I hit the restroom, I go get food for the first time.

I'm back by at the store maybe 8:09 p.m. at night, and I do the next day. I wasn't here on commission, but I worked really hard towards those things. So. And, you know, I got tons of kudos for that right when I went and got an internship at enterprise Rent-A-Car as an intern selling insurance. They have caps now.

By the time they try to, they will try to cap the interns and like 55 hours a week. They don't want them to burn out. Now they have these management trainees, these college grads who will work 60 70 hours and they would not pay them very much. It was all hourly, if you will, and they get overtime. I convince my boss to send the EMTs home and let me work instead, because I'll happily work 800 hours a week because I could, number one, make more money.

Because I'll get overtime right? And I'll outsell them. Everything else. So generate more, more profit, like more profitable growth than them, right? So in my mind, and I was quite successful doing that number one out of 40 plus people in the whole area for selling insurance and upgrades. Throughout this whole time, until my corporate career, I had a reinforced belief.

When I work hard, I am successful when I do more of everything. So that meant like even in the in the enterprise days, like, you know, like I always I would have more contract stuff. So the more contracts you write, the more you can sell. So I'm like, I'll do like three, four x everyone else like that's just like people like add more volume and more everything.

So they're like, when I do quantity, I win. It's that simple. So then I got the B2B sales and I remember like the very first week and I go, um, my boss says, hey, Marcus, your day one, uh, I want you to go outside, knock on doors. And I said, sure. How many doors should I knock on? Like, I have no concept of like, what that means and what's the what's good look like?

He said, go knock on 30 doors. If you do that, it's a great day and you'll probably book some meetings and maybe someone closes the deals. I'm like, that makes perfect sense. I'll walk in over 60 that day. I don't book a single meeting. I'm like, that's crazy. I go back to my boss, I'm like, hey, I walked in a 60.

He's like, I'm like, nothing happened. He's like, go back out there again. Next day I walked in over 60 again, 60 different doors. So by foot. I wanted over 120 businesses by foot. I literally didn't get it. I literally walked out of the building and just started walking down Northeast Columbia Boulevard in this industrial area of Portland.

And I was going, my foot, I come back. Same thing around my boss. This is crazy. I have done double the activity anyone's ever been doing, right? Just, just it's just. Just in those days. Just in those two days. What do I do next? He's like, yeah, you call them. So next day I go and I rip through 120 plus calls.

I don't book a single meeting. I look like I don't know what's going on right now. Like, uh, you call them again next day? I call them again. Not of course not. All them answer. Right. Again. No results. So I'm, like, freaking out now. Okay. Like, because I'm like, I'm outwork everyone now. Fast forward 4 or 5 weeks.

It kind of goes like that. And I'll tell you right now, most people were doing maybe 25% of the activity. And I'm like, this is insane. And I went to my boss. I'm like, he was just saying, it's a numbers game now. I'm not a mathematician, but a 0% conversion of anything that I'm doing is still 0% results. This doesn't make sense.

It's just a numbers game. Keep going out there. I'm like, oh my God. So like logically it just didn't make sense to me. When I start to really think about this, it's like it was kind of like, you know, I was driving the wrong direction on a road trip. It doesn't matter how fast I go, how hard I go that direction, if I'm in the wrong direction, I'm not going to get to where I want to go.

And that's when I was at the point. I'm like, man, like, guess for sure. Hard work is important, but is it the right type of hard work? Is it the right type of work is actually moving the needle, and that's something I see happen across the board for a lot of salespeople now, a lot of sales leaders, which is maybe they do work hard, but they're not working hard at the right things.

And ultimately they never get to where they want to go. Because if you can focus on the right things that actually drive results, you'll get far better results than just working hard.

Rewind back to that. If you're that manager and you have that rep, and that rep shows up and says, dude, I'm crushing activity. I've knocked the doors, I've made the calls, I've done like that manager in my mind, like, didn't manage properly, like, that's not a sales coach because they just said just, you know, just step on the gas harder, even though you're going in the wrong direction or just step on the gas harder.

But now looking back, if you're in that manager's seat and you have a rep, what would you what would you have told Marcus then?

Yeah. Great question. Well I'll just I'll give you I'll tell you a story of. Exactly. Because I've, you know, running teams. This is what happened all the time. So I remember I hired this great rep. Her name was Lisa and she had already been really successful in past roles. Right. And brought her to my team.

And she was like, your. She was a grinder. I mean, like, so we had I had we had very high expectations in our, in our organization, which was you need to book 16 new logo discovery calls every single week. That was a minimum expectation. 16 every single week. Right. She started booking 25 a week. Like it was like 23 to 25 per week.

Insane. I was like, oh my, this is insane. Week one though, like. And some of them like, it could be small. Two big deals right. So we sold everything from SMB, mid-market enterprise. Right. So we said high bar intentionally. So for first week she goes like one deal. And I'm like, huh. That's a little weird.

Like, you know, you've run 22 like only one close, right? Next week, next week. One deal.

I'm like. Next week. One deal. And I'm like, this is. This isn't making sense. She's close to one at like 25 calls. Like that literally doesn't make sense. It's like they're gonna stagger. So you can, like, have follow ups. They should be. They should start to compound over time. Right? Yeah. She's she's very, very confident.

She's kind of like oh my God. Like what's going on. This is this is different. And it was it was simple. I just I just went out and number one did two things. Number one we had a field day set up right so I could see what she's doing. I first sit in I listen to how she makes calls. Okay. Very quickly I realize, okay, she is not qualifying on the call.

So she's basically basically meeting anybody with a pulse, right? So that was like a very easy, immediate coaching component. It's like, okay, no problem here. Once you book the meeting, he's like three questions to ask just to qualify really quick. And then you can secure the meeting. Right. You might book less meetings which is okay, but you're better off having, you know, ten qualified meetings than 25 unqualified people meet with the wrong people too low level, etc. so that was the first reason I coached Sharon, right?

Then we went to the field and because of how I should've been doing it. These are also non decision makers. Right now that's okay. If you if you are highly skilled in the situation you can coach them through etc.. So I saw very quickly that she did not know how to coach a champion, did not have the multi thread and basically run the deal through to close and set really good follow up steps as a result of that.

So then I kosher on those things too. And what was really interesting was, you know, the next week, you know, or her next her next phone block Sasha she will you know or that fall week she booked like 12 appointments but far more qualified. Closes three deals that week. Okay. And then the next week now she's kind of averaging kind of 12 like 12 ish appointments.

She goes like five deals in that week because now she has some follow ups are closing on top of that. Fast forward she started to build more momentum over time. Right. You know, and just kept closing more and more, kept maintaining that 10 to 12 qualified skills each week, closing 3 to 6 deals every single week consistently right.

She ended up winning. Rookie of the year. First year. Hidden presence couple one not right. But ultimately the process I did was very simple. I actually went and diagnosed and took a look at where like where the rubber meets the road. I wasn't an armchair quarterback. I wasn't a keyboard warrior. I got out of my office.

I wanted to see exactly what's going on so I can coach and prescribe exactly to her constraint. So it's not some generic advice like, hey, just you work harder or make more calls. Like Lisa, you need to say these three things on the call to qualify. Let's roleplay now so we can roleplay so you can get that dialed.

Okay, cool. On sales calls you need to do these two things. Let's role play. And then we worked on that right. As a great leader your number one job is to make your team successful. So if you just sit back and hope you can figure it out, maybe some will, Maybe some won't. Right. But at the end of the day, your number one job is to make them successful.

Because if they're successful, you'll be successful too.

It's kind of like a more versus better argument, right? Like sometimes sometimes you need more of something like more activity. Sometimes. No amount of activity is going to matter. You need to do it better. And I, I recently came across the the definition of work by by physics standards. So physics actually defines work.

And hopefully I don't butcher it. But it's the formula for for work in physics is force times distance times times theta which is like alignment right. So the actual definition is force is the amount of activity. Distance is the amount of progress that something happens. And then theta or alignment is kind of the strategy.

Is it. Is it even aligned with what you want. So you take your scenario, you know, this this person that's selling, you know, the force is there, the activity is there. And in a lot of cases, you know, like doors knocked or calls made in a lot of cases, even distances, they're, you know, like you're seeing numbers on a, on a board, like, so there's numbers coming through.

She's booking a lot of appointments. But the underlying thing that's missing is the alignment like this. There's a strategic piece that's simply that that's not working. Which means no matter how much effort you put into pushing that wall and no matter how far that wall goes, it needed to go the other way.

Like, it's the wrong thing and it's like a steal from hormones, a little bit like the more versus better. Right. Just to simplify it. So my my follow up question to you would be how do you go about determining is this a more problem or is this a better problem.

I need to see what they're doing. I mean, the nice thing is like as a sales, you know, I was a wrap, I was a leader. So I know what great looks like. So when I take a look at what they're actually doing, let's just say if it's cold calls. If I, if I listen to a cold call, if they don't sound great, are there basic things that need to be taught still, right?

So the first thing is they have to actually get better at it, right? Okay. So cool. So let me focus on first. Hey, do they know what great looks like? Let me teach them what grade looks like. Okay. Have them do it with me. I think a mistake a lot of times a lot of leaders make is the reps. Does a one time with him sounds okay.

If they say okay, keep practicing that. Get after it and make some calls tomorrow, book some meetings tomorrow. They're kind of like, oh, they're like a see you later. Well, here's a reality I believe more especially in sales sometimes starts before the game starts. And what I mean specifically is let's just say the same rep.

If I coach, if I'm like, okay, they don't know what good looks like. So they actually need better and more or they need both really. So first I teach them what great looks like. Okay, cool. Now you know what that looks like. Now let's roll play and I'll have them do what I call real play. So these are really tough role plays with objections whatever I'm cushioning having to do multiple times dozens of times till they can do it with confidence.

Let's say it's 15 times. You do 15 times. Great. Okay, so now

they can go call me calls. So I'm going to make calls now. Is it how they were doing it in the role and the role plays or real play. If it's not they need more repetition again. So they might they might need more work, more real place. Let's just say for example, because you'll have like um, you know, some people over time they, their skill reps, their skill gets really good.

So they know what to do, but they're not doing so good. Example I have this rep. His name is Forrest. Very skilled like once like he was a fast learner. Um, he was able to basically mimic everything I taught him within, like, just show him once. It's kind of kind of wild, highly skilled and a very fast learner.

And he and he was really consistent in doing it on calls. So it's like he could he can I could teach him. He'd role play back perfectly. And immediately I just teach photographic memory, something like that. Except he was really lazy. He would booked the least amount of calls that he could book just to hit his number.

Like, and for someone like him,

his conversions are already great. So we knew he was doing all the right things he was already great at in terms of like the better part. So we all need better. We just need more. He was the guy where like, he like closed really big deals and they would kind of save his course. He'd be he'd be like posting goose eggs the entire quarter.

And then like the last week, the week 12 of the week, week 30, he he calls a monster to cover his whole number. And it would be just just to hit the number. Right. It wasn't even above that. Right. So that was always a challenge for someone like him because I'm like, you are so talented. Like, I mean, like the rest of the team wishes they had your skill level.

If you just literally increase and just a little bit more, you would make exponentially more for yourself and get your goal outcome you want to get to. But his problem with his self-concept is really low. So he, you know, he had a very low standard in life. So he was good with that. So, um, but that's the example where sometimes you have to do purely more.

I've encountered these salespeople a lot in my career, and it's the lazy salesperson, and they're a blessing and a curse. Some of the best tactics for how to get better. I've learned from watching lazy salespeople like and I and there's there's a couple that from my career who are really good. I mean so talented, very, very good.

And if they're listening right now, they know who I'm talking about, like close to top performers, because they mastered the art of figuring out how do I get maximum output with the least amount of effort? And they and they took pride in it. The ratio is what they took pride in. So if I can come in and make three phone calls and do what it takes somebody else 70, I almost don't want to make the other 20 because it screws up the kind of it kind of what you were talking about earlier, like the story I'm telling myself in my head, like I look at my ratio, right?

And so studying those people I've learned a lot about, well, what is it that they're doing right? Like, what can I extract from the person that makes three calls and does what somebody else does in 70? And take those best practices? What I have found is that, like oftentimes trying to push that person to 2X3X4X the activity, it just doesn't it doesn't work.

You know what I mean? I noticed you said when you were talking. Did you say real play versus role play? Yeah.

Real plays. That's what we call them.

Is that on purpose? Are you in real place?

Yeah. We do real plays. Get beat up, get bloody. For example, if you're going to do real plays with cold calls, I can only I have made tens of thousands of coal calls. I can only think of one call. I send my script, say, hey, can we meet at Thursday at eight? And they said, I'm so glad you called. We should totally meet.

Like I was like, thrown off. That's like, that's the only time. Every other time two, three, 4 four, five knows if that's real life and we want to prepare them for the worst case outcome. We need to train them for the worst case outcome. So this way they performed a level of system they're trained to versus you change like 1 or 2 no's or none in some cases.

I don't know if you know Jack Daley, um, he's, you know, uh, sales manager that I early in my sales management career, I follow some of his content mis courses and stuff, and he used to call it role practice. And he was like, no, like, this isn't playtime. Like, if we if we come in here and we and we play and we and we go soft like we're not learning the skills, he said, you know, you don't go under, you know, go watch an NFL team practice and see them just kind of like playing flag football.

Like they've got a they've got to train to take the hit. You know like the the the the the more real it is the the the better you're going to do.

Well, it's like a stain, right? Um, amateurs play more than they practice pros practice more than they play. Right. And they practice the intensity.

The way you play is the is the way you practice. Um, do you mention the. So the the awaken the Giant within the Tony Robbins book, which, by the way, insanely influential for for me to, um, like in, in early on in my career. So I very much relate to that. Did you happen? Did you catch the Tony Robbins or Mozzie interview?

Did you watch much of that?

I did, that was a that was an amazing interview. I thought personally, what was your like?

What was your biggest takeaway?

I think it's a good reminder, that reminder reminder that there are levels to the game when you see someone like Alex Mosley very, very successful at a very young age, very young guy. Right. And like so I think outside of anything, I think we all have a perception about him. And it's interesting. It's like when when I saw it, I'm like, I don't think he's actually happy.

And I think a lot of people kind of gather kind of like, like this, this guy who's been really successful, successful that a lot of people can't put on a pedestal doesn't seem that happy. Right? And I thought that was like really, really interesting. And I think the aha. And it was good. It's such a good reminder this to I.

You know, I've always used about, you know, Tony Robbins. I think it's like there's like six, six, you know, six, uh, key critical things that every human has to have, right? You know, like surge, the uncertainty, etcetera. And contribution is a big one. Right. And that was one thing that homeowners didn't really have.

And it was interesting when he said it, because I relate to him, because I'm also very logical in so many ways where he was like, I don't. We donate lots of money every year and not as much as him, but we've lots of money every single year. All we do, we try to do philanthropy like, like gave him money and stuff like that.

Because I have more money than time. Just having Tony walk through and talk about all the things he's doing. I mean, I'm like, man, this guy was so busy. He runs like, I don't know how many businesses. It's like 12 billion a year, something like that. And he still is able to fly to Africa and like spend like a month out there, do these things right.

Was like very inspiring. But then I think also a great reminder of like, hey, when you actually go. Actually, they're doing the thing. It feels very different than when you just wire money or pull out your credit card to donate money. And it hits in a different way. And it was a good reminder for myself to do do more of that, right?

You know, so like, you know, and I think it applies to everything in life, right? So it's like, you know, right now I'm in a season in my life where I like to do more stuff than my kids school. Right. So I'm trying to make sure, like, you know, we donate money and stuff to the school cause they're trying to raise money.

But I'm also trying to make sure my my chaperoning for field trips. Am I showing up and doing stuff with a kid where I could contribute in different ways, like community? Right. So that was a good reminder for that. But that was, um, that was quite a powerful interview.

It was really powerful, in fact. Hmm. You you know, my wife sang like she actually watched it, and she's like, we're very when it comes to, like, the content we we ingest, it's very different. And she, she watched it and, and thought had a very different take on it from a personal standpoint. I thought it was was interesting.

But one of the things I've been thinking about since that discussion I want to get your take on, um, and it was the conversation around suffering and the and it was the reason it's really interesting topic for me is because I thought it was kind of a pivotal moment in that interview. And in the gist of this is, you know, Alex's view is you you need to find something worth suffering for.

Like, like basically anything that you do, you're going to have to eat some shit along the way. Right. Like, no matter what your passion is, no matter what your goal is, no matter what. Like, if you want to be a trial lawyer, guess what? You're going to have to go through a lot of books, a lot of schooling, a lot of, you know, administrative shit.

It's not just the closing arguments, right? It's not just the fun part of the job. And I think Alex is, you know, paraphrasing for what he said he has said is part of doing anything big involves doing a whole bunch of shit you don't want to do. And the reason most people don't do the shit they really want to do is because they think it's just that thing, and they give up along the way when they encounter the friction.

So he says, like, if you just retrain it, kind of like you were talking about earlier. Like if you reframe it and you say, no, just find a goal worth suffering for. And it's a lot easier because you lower your expectation. And as he's having that conversation with with Tony, Tony's basically he says he's like, fuck suffering.

Why would you in order to pursue the thing you want? Why the fuck do you think you have to suffer, man like you don't. You don't have to suffer like you. You get to do these things. You get to to do the stuff that you're doing. And I've, I've gone back and forth on it because I think one of the challenges, like in entrepreneurship, a lot of the reasons people give up in business is because their expectation is so high that they're going to they're going to reach something big in a short period of time.

And I do think that there's a healthy level of, you know, if you go into it and say, this is going to suck like this, this, I'm gonna I'm gonna have, like Elon Musk says, like, you gotta eat some glass, right? Like you're gonna have to go through this. So if you lower your expectation. The likelihood of persisting is going to be.

Is going to be higher at the same time. If the goal that you have is a 15 year goal. Doesn't that kind of mean that you're you're you're you're basically eating shit for 15 years, and that doesn't seem like a fun way to live. And I don't know if you have a take on it, but it'd be curious, like when you when you hear that.

Is someone right? Is there something in the middle or what's your what's your take on that on that topic?

Yeah, it's a really interesting point right. And I think obviously it's like I think the most amazing thing would be like, you pick a goal, you after you get immediate wins right after. Right. But I've also learned and I look back in my life and in the moments I have learned the most, has always been the always the toughest moments in my life.

Right. It's like always in the dark, the darkness, right where it's, you know, later on, you don't realize the lesson that you're actually like, I look back in life and, you know, like I would say, a pretty good childhood, right? But I started working in the restaurant at the age of five. Like, I literally like, I had to buy my own toys as a kid.

Like, we were very, very poor. You know, I worked all the time as a kid. So my childhood wasn't the same as most kids was, right? When I started doing sports the one night, my parents never came to any events. Right. And it's interesting because in hindsight, when I look back to all these things that happened to happen for me, I'm like, wow, there are certain lessons I have now because of that experience in the moment, I hate it.

I regretted it, right? But years later, I'm like, I'm so thankful that happened. And you know, I've just learned to try how it's perspective for me personally, which is to understand that the process is the price. The process of wherever you want to go to is the actual price of who you become. And it's easier said than done.

So there's times where, you know, like when you're when you're making a big move, it's hard to remember that, right? It's just when you have a bunch of like, bad stuff happening, right? Like I remember this is like years ago I was in corporate America and, um, you know, it was like. It was like my number double for the year.

I'm like, oh, God, how am I gonna do this, right? Um, that was my second year as a director at a big org to 100 plus people, like I mentioned, right? I, I we start having all these, like, HR issues, assert managers, like, all these investigations are happening. I'm like, oh my god. Like I don't know back those ready to go.

I have a huge number to hit. Like it's having a trickle. We're having turnover now because of it. Like you know, uh, that's at the same time I had a manager di like it passed away like, uh, due to, like, alcohol poisoning. Like, they just like their liver basically failed. Right. And then their, their, their, uh, moms started attacking me on social media and blame me and say that I killed their son, you know, and then during that same time, like my parents, who have been married for 40 years at the time, were wanting a divorce and I was like, and I had a young baby as well.

I'm like, there's all this stuff going. I'm like, oh my God, like this horrible, right? You know, like, but in hindsight, it like forced me to become a better version of me. It forced me to learn how to prioritize better ideals, deal with uncertainty, get through these hard parts, how to like, focus on what really matters.

And that was really, really powerful. And I remember on the same time I read a quote, it's not my quote whose quote it is, but it goes along the lines of like, you know, when bad things happen, it's like you have to remember that you think you can think. It happens to me or happens for me. If you think it happens for me, then you can reposition how you actually approach the situation, right?

You become less of a victim and that was a good reminder of that time. So when I hear and I think there's a lot of powered words, so like when someone says, well, you're just going to suffer, right? That's not the word I would choose in that time. Like, I don't know, I would say I was suffering. I think to me that's like that means I have zero control and I hear that person's suffering, right?

Um, it was a it was a tough time. It was a challenge. And it's a dark time. But I also know, like in life, after every sunny day, there's always. Every rainy day is always sun, right? It always happens. Like what goes down must come up. What goes up must come down. So I think it's just what I think about from a larger perspective.

I don't think it's a bad thing. And especially if you have a long time horizon, like you have a 15 year time horizon and you're able to think that far, that is like really, really powerful because I think about stuff like right now that we're doing that, I'm not going to see any yield from. Right. Like, you know, like, you know, like for example, like I think about, you know, young kids.

So why it's like, you know, we put my kid in a really, really nice, you know, private school because we're forced to be able to do that. Right. And it is not cheap. I mean, this costs more than college tuition, right? And from a logical perspective, I'm like, what's my ROI going to be this shit? Right? But I know this is not a one year play.

It's not a ten year, but this is really a 20, 30 year play. So this kid is going to be set up to think through and how to adapt to the future world, because he's not going to be memorizing stuff. He's going to know how to actually think. So I think if you have a longer time horizon, you can you can change some of the words that you're using to.

I say hopefully more empowering words. So you look at the situation in a more positive light, and you can think about the greater future that you're actually going after.

I never heard you talk about that. The the manager that died and then you being kind of attacked and under the gun. And I know in hindsight you can say, hey, it's it's um, we all know this is there's going to be a brighter day at the end of this. Like we know that. What did you how did you handle that at the time?

So it was really tough. So it give you more context because like I give you the light version right. So so this is a this is a leader I had um I got promoted to be a director. I took over one part of the market. I don't want to say which one, but one part of the market, for obvious reasons. are. And that had been a dumpster fire of 15 tons of turnover missing for years.

Brought in a new manager okay. Worked closely as a manager. Completely turned the team around first year his presence club said multiple presence club. I mean it becomes like, oh my god, like what an incredible like, wow, it's amazing. And uh, great guy, really great guy. And um, and he actually moved to this city for us, right.

Which was amazing with his, uh, with his wife. Second year, I started to know some shifts and they were actually physical shifts. So this, I would say, like, physically tall, good looking guy with like a former model, right? Like good, good looking dude. And, um, he started to look off like skin was really blotchy, bloated looking.

Not how it's bloated, just looked off or like, this is strange, right? And he started just like to miss certain things that he would never miss. You know, his office numbers. He wasn't like, down with it, you know, like getting back to me at a certain time. But he'd say he's just a very unlike him. Right. It's kind of weird when you see a top performer do certain things that's consistent in something that's changing.

You're trying to I'm coaching this guy through it, and I'm also trying to say like, what's actually going on? I'm trying to understand like, hey, is everything okay? What's going on with you? Try to get them kind of tell me, right? And, um, I can't go to the exact specifics, but he kept you in certain things, and, you know, we ended up terminating the guy to return this guy, right?

So I thought it was all documented, this whole process, right? I was like, I was I was like, I was really disappointed because I'm like, there's something going, I don't know what it is. But he would not tell us. All right. So anyways, we ended up terminating the guy a week later. Uh, the guy I mean, unfortunately we had backfield and all that stuff ready to go.

So we had someone on his team was going to easily backfill. And, uh, the backfill manager calls me Saturday night, which is very weird. That's all they do. They don't they don't call me after hours, like, this was like this, like, so I'm like, hello? He's like, hey, um, you know, you know, so and so the the the ex-manager, uh, he's in a coma.

He's in a hospital. I'm like, what? What? I was, like, shot me. What, what what's going on? He's like, uh, I'm not sure. Like. So I give you a quick heads up. Like, I'll let you know a little more in a little bit. Calling me out an hour later, he's like, okay,

his liver is failing because he was friends with the guy. He's like, I had heard from a couple of days. I went to go check on him, right. Found him. Like, just like passed out in his place, uh, inside his, uh, he had a Jeep. Inside his Jeep was like, tons of, like, empty half gallons, like block or half gallons, just, like, filled.

Right. And turns out that, like, this team knew I didn't. His team knew that he was a big, like, kind of a private, like a like a silent drinker. He described himself. He like, go home and just binge drink, right? Didn't realize this is the whole thing. So anyways, it had been going on for I guess for years because I mean, this guy was like 31, 32.

I'm like 31, 32 drinks a level war. Your liver fails is an insane amount of alcohol. He kind of tells you that, okay, calls me half an hour later, he just died. And I have this, like, level of guilt where I'm like, oh my God. Like,

did I drive him to this point? Like, would I do horrible boss. Did I push him to this level, etc. I went, I was like, I just had no idea. And then, you know, then, uh, you know, later on when I talked to talk to, uh, you know, my manager the next day and he's like, I have to tell you something like, you know, this, this is like he's he's he's always been a big drinker.

He's like, it's been his thing. But like, it's somehow gotten like a worse just like over whatever. He is going through a tough time with his, like, his, uh, his ex-wife, they sort of separated and start having all these issues and it probably just magnified it, right. It also turns out that, um, his sister is also an alcoholic.

So there's and I think the dad is sort of like, you know, genetic thing going on, right? So I'm like, oh my God, this is like. And I'm feeling I still feel horrible regardless because I'm like, I generally care about this guy. And I was like, I thought maybe I pushed him over or whatever, right. Obviously he had other, other challenges before, you know, before that.

So I'm like, this is crazy. And then the mom started texting me, and the mom starts like, she got my number. Uh, I guess my magic, the magic was like, oh, she asked for my number. I'm like, that's fine. And then so she started texting me and just started, like, blaming me. I was like, hey, you killed my son. You made him drink himself to death, blah blah, blah.

I'm like, oh my God, I don't even know what to do. I was like, oh my, oh, oh, like, this is horrible. And then like, you know, I reached I reached out to HR and HR directions very clearly. Hey like it's it's obviously terrible. You just cannot respond. I'm like one of these caller. They're like, she's like Marcus.

Like you're in exactly the company. You cannot call her and talk to her because you might say something you don't intend to. That could be can be misinterpreted. Right. You can't texture like. You just have to, like, let her. Like let her be. And

just, like, don't respond. Just do not respond. I'm like, oh my God. So I'm like, oh my God. I'm feeling like horrible now, right? I'm like, oh, what's going to happen here? Then the next day is like almost like a Monday. She starts tagging me in these posts

online on LinkedIn. Hey, you know Marcus, Sharon killed my son, blah blah blah. Over and over and over. I'm like, oh my God, I let HR knows. Wow, right? There was no happy ending of the story. I basically kind of let dissolve, right? I felt horrible the entire time, but it was one of those things where I'm like, man.

Like I was, I was not thinking like, there's a great sunnier day beyond this. I'm just like. I just felt like enormous, like guilt. And

what what the guilt was. Well, I really thought about it later on. I had more kind of process. It was like, why didn't I push him to get help sooner? Like, I didn't know what he was, what he had. So now I know. I'm like, there's like certain signs. I'm like, well, I looked up later. I'm like, classic signs. They get all puffy looking, you know, the skin looks a little blotchy.

I thought his skin start looking a little yellow. So it was jaundice, right? That's probably what it was. Right. So that was like these realization if I'd known like I could have like in and again we had a lot of requirements because, you know, it's a fortune 500 company. I couldn't just come out and if if I did know, I couldn't be like, are you an alcoholic?

Do you need to get help? You know, do you wanna get help? Right now we have resources. We could. I couldn't do that. You know, they'd have to bring it to us because you can't accuse people of stuff like that, right? There's certain requirements by HR, so. But it's kind of like in hindsight I'm like, man, like if I had had known, could I can at least guide the conversation more to create more psychological safety.

Keep in mind, I've had I've had thousands of reps. Right. So they just tell me these isolated situations, right. But like I've had a rep store, I've learned over time they had like certain drug addictions because of the situations, I'm able to kind of spot it early on and get them help and get them to like, you know, to have confidence what they tell me so they can, like, I can get them support so they can go get healthy for themselves.

Not for not for me, not for a country. But so this way they can go and take care of myself, because sometimes they're in a situation where it's so bad they can't help themselves, you know, like and it was interesting because this is my first time ever knowing about like an actual alcoholic situation. There's pastimes.

Whereas all the drug things that I learned over time, like, okay, these are some signs I gotta see if I can kind of guide them into it and give them some help, because ultimately I want them to thrive in life, right? I put them in a situation where suddenly something bad happens or they get an accent, or they just do something terrible and they regret it.

So these are always the hard things about leadership as part of it, right? But in hindsight, I'm like, I learned a lot. And now I know the science, you know. So now and I've had a situation past that or I have suspicions I'm able to have different conversations. So hopefully you get them to realize it. Whether they get help through the companies like, you know, resources or they go on their own, but at least they know they're dressing it so they can actually take care of themselves.

Man, I'm sorry to hear that. That's, um. I never heard that before. From from you, man. Um, a lot of things when you're in a leadership role, especially, I mean, whether you leave one person or a thousand people, like, you're going to have scenarios come up where people's people's lives affect them at work.

Like the whole leave your leave all that at the door is, is is bullshit. Like it's impossible, especially since so much of sales is psychological. Like there's a tactical element. There's an activity element, but then there's a psychological element. And what you project, you know, when somebody is having these personal issues, whether it's a divorce, alcoholism, like you mentioned, drug addiction or just all string of fucking bad days or something's going on with their their kid at home like you, I mean, anything can.

Life happens. As a leader, would you have to approach those sensitive conversations? Um, how do you how do you do that? Like, if you that may be an extreme example, but if you had to go have a sensitive conversation similar to that with with a sales rep today or one that may have been more common, how do you what do you do beforehand and how do you approach that, that discussion?

So, um, I've learned a lot over the years and a lot of who had to do with me just basically doing it poorly. Right? And when I think about it from a because I'm a nerd, I like frameworks. I think about it's like if you can have a conversation of any sort of potentially could be hard. I think about the Triple T's, and I learned this years ago from a guy, Clint, who was a VP of sales.

He says, Marcus, if you want to have a tough conversation, you gotta think about your tact, your tone and your timing, your tact, tone, timing. I think that makes a lot of sense. You see, you need all three because you can have the best tack, the best tone, or if your timing's not good, it's going to be a real tough conversation, right?

I'm like, that's a good point. So I remember I'll just give an example. Right. So I had this I had this rep, I watched them and my manager called me out. This is like my Portland man at the time I was I was a director. He's like, hey, um, I think there's something going on with this rep. Nick. I'm like, okay, what do you mean?

He's like, I'm not sure. He just seems a little off. Like maybe he's on something or not. I'm not even sure. How was the conversation, right? I said, okay, let's let's do it together. Right. I'm in Portland. Let's grab a non travel week, but let's do it together. I'm like owning the first pieces. Let's invite him to coffee.

Let's just, like, try to break up the environment, right? Let's not let's not go to my office. So he's like, sitting across from the desk, you know, let's not it's not going by the HR room, like like let's just try to put him in like a psychologically safe place. So I said, hey, so, you know, we kind of position like, hey, let's just have, like, you know, this is just a, you know, like just a check in a check in chats.

Go to get some coffee. Do you get some Starbucks. That's fine. So we go we go to Starbucks. Right. And you know we sit down. He's still they still get a little nervous. We go that's kind of how they how they are anyways. You know so we have kind of the normal pour and you know and I'll say I was well his his performance had been going down as well.

You know, I didn't know some of the stuff he had because yeah, I travel a lot. I didn't notice any of some of the stuff that, you know, my manager was worried about. He's like, oh, maybe. I think he looks a little high. I'm not sure. Like I was like, so, uh, so but we saw his performance going down anyways. Right?

We sit down and we're having the coffee. We're kind of warming up to it, I said, and then once you get past the kind of rapport, I was just in my tones, really, really intentional. I'm like, hey, so you know, Nick, how how are you doing? Oh, it was great. I'm doing really good. You know, like, you know, I'm working really hard.

You know, I'm getting close some deals this week, you know, I promise all my numbers get back up. I'm like, oh, dude,

forget. Forget about your numbers. Like, just

how are you? Oh, you know. Good. You know, like, I mean, but I promise, I promise, boss, I'll get my numbers back. I'm like Nick, it's it's it's fine man. Um, well, hey, listen, can I just kind of share with you what what's what's on my mind, and you can share if you're comfortable. He's like, okay, so not really sure what's going to go.

I said, hey, man. So, you know, you've been you've been, you know, you've been in a part of Oregon now for about, you know, about three months or so and, um, you know, and I feel like, you know, your, your behavior is kind of just your average just kind of shifts a little bit. I don't I can't put my finger up, but it just seems a little different.

And I'm just like, are you okay? And you see, he seems like.

Hey, look how it's down. Hey, I can tell you there's something on his mind, right? Like, he wants. Like he wants to say something. You know, I think I just. I think I've just been stressed. I'm like, okay. He's like. I've just been stressed. You know, just, you know, this is a hard job. You know, you and the company have really high expectations, you know?

So I think I think I'm just adapting to it. I just didn't buy it. I'm like, okay, I gotta size again. Like,

I can tell you that something he wants to say now and again, I can't come out and say something like, hey, do you have a drug problem? Do you have whatever? You can't. You're not supposed to do that. Right? So I'm like, when I brought you on, you know, you told me you have these big goals or some of these. Here's some of your goals.

My number one goal is to help you get those goals. Um, so if there's anything that you feel is an obstacle in your way or you need some support with, like, just let me know, okay? Like, I'm not worth a bunch number like you do your new. It's your money in three months. Like, I don't ain't worried about that. Just keep doing the right things.

Do what you know. Andrew, your manager is having to do, and you'll be completely fine. But I just want to make sure you know that I'm here to support you. And same with Andrew. And same with our whole team. Okay. He's like, okay, well thank you. So I'm like, okay, so we leave. I'm like, okay, well, you know, I drive, I drive back to the office, I call up and say, hey man.

Like he said, he's probably stressed. What? I mean, he's just I don't know, we'll see. Right. Like but you know, just just keep it. Keep keep cool. Silence. Make sure to support him. Right. He's just stressed his way. He says. So maybe that's what it is. Maybe, maybe maybe something else. So I go back. Go back to the office.

At the end of the day, it's like 4:00. I hear a knock on my door, my office door. He's like, hey, do you do you have time to talk? I said,

yeah, yeah, come on, let's talk. He's like, listen, I, um, I haven't been truthful, truthful with you.

He starts crying.

Tears are coming down. He's like, this is really hard for me to say,

but I'm an addiction. Like, I have a drug addiction. Like he's like, I'm addicted to meth. And I'm like, I was like, I was like, completely thrown off. But no one's ever said that to me before, right? And it kind of made sense. Like kind of area grew up like in certain parts of the Oregon wash area. It's like methods are very heavy.

And he came in a small town. So I'm like, it's like it's like a crazy surprise, right? So I'm like, okay, there are resources the company has. Like there's certain that there's like a certain like there's certain resources that can help you, you know, you can take a leave. Right? You mean this is what you got to do next?

You can take a leave. There's support, resources to get you into a program. So once you're ready to come back, you can come back. Would you like me to help you with getting some of those resources? He's like, yes, I've been trying to quit like for a long time. Yes. And like, give me a big hug and you're still crying the whole time.

Right? Then we got with my HR, we got all the resources right to be able to do it. Right. So, um, there is no perfect conversation, but if you can kind of create that environment for them, you know, to hopefully be able to have that open conversation, hopefully they can have a conversation like, you know, we're all human, we all have vices, right?

And, uh, it's our duty to help people the best that we can once we hear about these type of things.

Well, it shows us kind of leader you are. I think that's awesome. Uh, you know, like, a good leader is going to have some, some interesting conversations with their team because it's just like in sales, if you've built rapport and you've built some trust, you're probably going to reach a different level of conversation and depth with your team than than other people are.

So I think I think it says a lot about you. And, you know, that's one of the benefits for all the, um, you know, the, the social media beats up on, you know, nine to fives and big companies like, you know, that's one of the benefits. You have resources and shit like that to, to actually be able to help when something like that comes up.

Something I was going to ask you is the way that I met you was, you know, unbeknownst to me, right? It's like two parallel paths. We both leave very successful sales careers, and we're kind of building online, like independently. And I had I had moved to Cabo and I had this idea of, yeah, I'm just going to do some consulting, like, this shit's easy.

Some of my mentors do consulting. They make a ton of money, like they have 2 or 3 clients. This can't be that hard. I have a I know a lot of stuff, so I should be able to sell that knowledge. And I get to Cabo and I realize there is so much that I don't know. Like, there's, I mean, serious like digital marketing, like it's one thing to run an 8 or 9 figure business in your case, but like, it's one thing to do that and it's another thing to build from 0 to 1.

It's one thing to do it in person and then build online. So I get into this mix and I'm like, what do you mean? I need to figure out my offer? And I got to figure out my, like my marketing and do this and do that and just like I copy and blah, blah, blah. So like, candidly, I'm kind of struggling like, it's like I'm trying to figure out how to do this.

And I'm like, I'm scanning Upwork for jobs at this point. And, you know, here I am like a CEO from private equity. I've got an MBA I'm doing and I'm I'm like, fuck, man. I'll just, you know, an hourly rate playbook writing at this point. And I didn't seem to be figuring it out. And I, I saw you online and on LinkedIn and you see like outside looking in, you seem to be doing better than me.

You were you were a couple steps ahead of me on, on that front. And, you know, you just had it like tightened up, like buttoned up. And I reached out to you and I said, hey, dude, um, I don't remember the exact words, but, you know, it was like, hey, I wanted to know if we could hop on a call because I'd love to hear what you're doing and and how it's working, and get some, some tips and basically pick your brain, and you shot back a note and you're like, yeah, dude.

Of course. Like, here's here's where I'm doing, like right out of the gates. Didn't know me and just said sure and gave me some some pointers. And then we hopped on a call and you were a complete open book. And you have been since I've known you. You're you're very transparent about it. You were incredibly willing to help.

Most people aren't, right. Like, most people feel guarded. Most people like when they they reach a level of success or they've got something they become very, very protective of. That from day one, you've been very open and and helpful to me and getting started. And my question is kind of like full circle to to what you were talking about earlier.

Better questions, better answers, reframing things. What do you believe about helping other people or being an open book as an entrepreneur that maybe a bunch of other people don't?

So one of the things I saw as a key behavior growing up that really, really, really was first shocked when I first saw it, but then was really impressed over time, was seeing how my dad approached an abundance mindset. Like I would see him do certain things. And I'll give you a really, really simple example like I remember, um, this is like I was 17 years old.

And so my, my dad has a restaurant, uh, summertime. He would do these festivals where we have a food, basically a food cart. It was before food courts were a big thing, and we basically would be outside for 18 hours a day slinging Chinese food. I remember at one of the festivals it was really hard to get into.

It was the the Scandinavian festival. So yes, we're selling Chinese food at a Scandinavian festival. That's correct. My dad had for years been trying to get into that festival because it has tons of traffic, tons of people, and it's free to get in. So we just knew we'd be able to crush. And at this point, we had been doing the festival business for about 20 years.

So he was really well known in the Eugene area as well. So I grew up and we finally got it. So we got in and we were the only Chinese food or Asian food booth at the festival. Now, there were some other Asian business owners and they had completely different menus for this place. So they only saw us come in and they were immediately pissed.

They're like, oh, what? Why is this guy. Why are these guys here. And it got worse that first year. We did like 3 or 4 Exhales everybody else like my dad had such a well diamond crushed. And that made the other people more mad. Those other Asian owners in fact they started they tried to get us kicked out from the festivals.

They're like do all stuff. And what was really interesting was I'm like, so I'm all Max, I'm 17 and I'm like, oh, those guys are jokes. I can't believe they're like, they're doing. My dad's like, Marcus,

calm down. It's fine. There's plenty of business for everyone. Like, you just treat people to respect. The second year, we're placed right next to one of the guys who hated our guts, this guy Simon. And it's like. So it's like. So the festival runs Thursday through Saturday or Sunday. So. So right before the dinner rush.

So there's dinner rush. Come. It's free. Make most your money anyway. It's crowds of people. Dinner is about 5 to 6 p.m. right before Simone Sisto goes out. Simone is freaking out. He's like, he's he's basically going to miss the whole dinner rush, right where you really make the money. And my dad stops.

What he's doing has me take over everything else he goes over. So I spend like 30 minutes helping someone fix his stove, gets it working so Simone can serve his customers. And he comes back and I'm like, dad, what were you? Why don't you help that guy? That guy is taking our customers. He's like, no, Marcus.

He's like. And he basically said he can't kind of. What goes around comes around. He's like, at the end of the day, there's plenty of customers. We should always have other people. He's like, this is how we should do things. This is like, this is the this the like. Sometimes the the right thing to do doesn't feel like the best thing to do.

But remember, it's always the right thing to do. And I'm never thinking that. I'm like, wow. And in I remember even prior to that, in years after I would see him with that same behavior over and over and over. Helping other people. Like he like, I mean, he was telling me the story of the day, like when he first got the real estate business of buying properties, he would have his first rental property.

He intentionally accepted a bad deal with the guy because this guy was willing to teach him about the real estate business. He's like, I'll make my money back. A year later on, I don't really care, but I'm willing to take this bad deal. I'm sure I'm a I'm a great partner so I can learn so much from him. And now is this like this?

Like long term thinking that I thought was really, really powerful. So I've always carried that through, like my corporate career as I got a little bit older. Right. Like I remember even like my first outside sales were, once I started getting good, I would call my competitors, like in person. I'd walk into my competitor's office and develop rapport with them and build trust with them.

Right. Because I need a place of past customers I couldn't sell to anyways, right? And I even sold some of them. You know, so fast forward to having my own business. That became very pivotal for me, right? Just to continue that mindset of helping others whenever I can. Now, at the time, I had more time on my hands anyways, right?

So you reached out and I saw you back and I'm like, this guy is a legit operator like you. Like, I would love to help him out because I might be maybe a couple steps ahead, maybe one step in if I can help them anyways. Great. That'd be awesome. I'll feel good helping him. Who knows what's going to happen, right?

And honestly, it's been amazing. We've had an incredible friendship. We've been together multiple times. You know, we refer business back and forth to each other. It's been a really cool. That was not my expectation. It just kind of happened. Right. Now the other component is this is I remember how I was probably

28 or 29 and I read a book. It was called High Performance Habits by Brendon Burchard, and he realized there was three things if he died or the most important for him. And he had three different words. And that made me realize I'm like, if I died right now,

what would be my three words? What do I want people to remember me by? And it took some time to really think about this. And I was on a boil. Boil down to three things. Number one was influence. So nine like be an influencer. But like whoever I encounter cannot positively influence or help them in some way, shape or form.

Okay. Number two is legacy. Can I build a legacy beyond just me? And number three is love or or care. The people know whatever I do, I deal with the highest intention and care. So when you reach out to me, this allowed me to actually tap into all those things, right? To be able to positively help you, to have an influence, have a legacy of you knowing me and passing that on, right.

To show that I love and care right to the point of what I mentioned. So come on, a long winded answer. But, um, that's how I approach life. Um, and I have found it is made me much happier to have this type of detachment and just focus on stuff that I can't control like that.

And I'm very fortunate. I appreciate it and we'd be like you said, we've been great friends since you've been to Cabo. We've done the masterminds and, you know, kick business either way. And, um, yeah, it's been a great relationship, but I but I've always thought about that because most people don't do it.

Like, you know, most people come from a scarcity mindset. And I'm going to be really protective. You mentioned, you know, um, or I've heard you talk about your parents didn't want you to get into sales. I think it was accountant or lawyer, like traditional career paths for for more for more fortune. Are they are they proud of you in sales now?

Well, it took a long time. So the first probably ten years, I think I showed them my W-2 in my earnings every single year.

This guy show that it kind of prove it's in the right like, you know. But then, you know, what's interesting was, you know, every time I made a move, they're like, you shouldn't make that move. You know, a stable career, etc.. Well, you know, I started the business. They were. They were scared for me because, you know, like, I had equated entrepreneurship to pain because, you know, I saw how hard they worked for, you know, a decent life.

Not like, not not wealthy, just decent life. So they were like, you can go start your own business. Like, you know, this is like, incredibly hard, right? Like, you know. Um, and so they were actually very skeptical about me showing the businesses to, you know, like, that was like a big thing. And, um, but now it's been like, you know, almost seven years and, um, you know, they've seen why I've been able to do like.

And I think it's like, and I mean, they're kind of old school, like, I don't think it really set in for them until I wrote a book. It's kind of a weird thing, but like once I wrote a book and it was like a Wall Street Journal. I mean, my mom was like, she had the newspaper all like what she saw, like a physical thing because they, they, they still don't know why right now.

They have no idea. They're like, you have some sort of business. We don't know something that's. They had no idea. No.

Where's the building, Marcus I don't like. What is it?

Right. They're like, you should have a building. And, like, hundreds of employees. I'm confused. You know, like it's an online business? Do people remote? They're confused by that. It's like people are all over the world. I'm like, yeah, that's kind of what your clients are everywhere. I'm like, yeah, they're not.

It's a weird thing from. They're better now. But at the time for early on for some for several years, they're like they were very confused. They're like somehow like, I don't know what you're doing. Uh, I hope it's not illegal, but good job.

From a time standpoint, I would love to. We could talk for for hours, and we'll probably have multiple sessions. Um, but tell me, you know, in the in the final question here, tell me about the business. Like who who do you work with? Where, where can people find you and all that good stuff?

So, uh, we work directly with, um, B2B sales organizations. So most of them are most of them as chief revenue officers, sales, VP's heads of sales. Typically, the revenue org is between five, about 25 people. So they're not quite a startup. They're in that growth mode. And a lot of times the problems are running into is like their leaders are stuck in every single deal.

Inconsistent process, No real playbooks. Deals keep stalling forever. Right. And we come in and we do a couple steps. Number one, we first help them diagnose exactly where they're leaking the most amount of revenue. And then we actually help put and install the right systems to fix all of that across the board.

Sometimes that's specifically working directly with the reps. Sometimes we're working with the rev ops and their leaders, sometimes combination all of the above. But ultimately the goal is to install a system that's repeatable, to continue to grow for for years to come. And if people want to find learn more how to do Bentley consulting.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn.

And get your book.

And get my.

Book.

Go have Amazon. You can get your Amazon.

Wall Street Journal bestseller. Great book. Um, and and a ton of great content. So so make sure you follow up, Marcus. Um, really appreciate it as always, brother. Uh, hopping on and look forward to to doing this again. And, um, thanks again man.