SHOW TOPIC:

Josh Waitzkin brings the proof-of-work when it comes to deep learning and flow.  His techniques about learning to learn can be applied anything.  In this episode, Tali and Scott apply them to homeschooling.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU'LL LEARN:

• Why “life history” resources, namely biographies and autobiographies, make such great learning tools
• Josh Waitzkin, the author of “The Art of Learning” describes concepts that can make us as parents better teachers
• The techniques he describes can be used by anyone, any age
• Because humans relate to things emotionally, reading a living book is the best to get kids interested 
• Waitzkin strategically thinks about the long term goal (although he does not use the word’s “low time preference”)
• Waitzkin epitomizes anit-fragile
• He also goes into great depth about reaching “flow”
• Immediate feedback is key to flow and key to learning
• These learning lessons can be applied to anything
• You can never out success the strength of your character
• Waitzkin is a master of seeing the world from his opponents’ point of view
• Constant feedback = adaptive learning
• Being able to stay in flow when bad things happen is more than understanding your opponents, you really have to understand yourself
• “Staying soft” emphasizes the importance of finding a state of relaxed concentration, where one can perform at their best in the face of stress
• “Investing in loss” = seeking out learning from all setbacks and other forms of feedback
• Teachers, like coaches, need to understand the natural inclinations of their students
• Balance of encouragement and correction is a fine line to walk
• Importance of always keeping a beginner’s mind
• That sense of anti-fragility cannot happen if kids are always winning and not dealing with adversity (back to investment in loss)
• Visualization is powerful skill to teach kids
• Another ant-fragile habit to teach kids is to keep a learning journal
• Don’t trust.  Verify.  Listen to the audible book and pick just one thing that helps you and/or your kids.
• Effort trumps talent:  Tali challenges the cultural tendency to focus on talent and/or lack of talent, e.g., message to oneself “I’m not good at math”
• Waitzkin goes deep on everything he does
• You can use leverage technology to get all types of feedback
• Train kids to be able to focus in the middle of chaos because conditions are never going to be perfect
• Face your losses.  Don’t shy away from them.
• To succeed fast, fail faster
• Use living books.  Have discussions about them with your kids.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

• Josh Waitzkin’s “The Art of Learning: An Inner Journey to Optimal Performance”  Amazon

Other Mentions

• "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln" by Doris Kearns Goodwin Amazon
• The movie ”Searching for Bobby Fischer”
• Daniel Coyle’s “The Talent Code: Greatness Isn't Born. It's Grown. Here's How.”  Amazon

HAPPY TO HELP:

• Tali's Twitter @OrangeHatterPod
• Scott's Twitter @ScottLindberg93
• Scott's nostr npub19jkuyl0wgrj8kccqzh2vnseeql9v98ptrx407ca9qjsrr4x5j9tsnxx0q6
• Free Market Kids' Twitter @FreeMarketKids
• Orange Pill App @FreeMarketKids
• Free Market Kids' games including HODL UP https://www.freemarketkids.com/collections/games

WAYS TO SUPPORT:

We are essentially our own sponsors and are so grateful for all of you who support this show.  Thank you!

• Subscribe, like and share this podcast with others
• Visit our “Free Market Kids“ for products like the Bitcoin mining game, HODL UP  https://www.freemarketkids.com,
• Enjoy a 21% DISCOUNT on pre-sales of the 2024 Halving Collectors edition of HODL UP https://www.freemarketkids.com/products/hodl-up-2024-halving-event-commemorative-edition
• Check out Tali’s podcast by and for Bitcoin women, “Orange Hatter” https://www.orangehatter.com  
• Have fun with “Proof of Work Apparel” https://www.freemarketkids.com/collections/proof-of-work-apparel

STANDING RESOURCE RECOMMENDATIONS:

• Article "Homeschoolers Are Bitcoiners Who Don't Know It Yet" https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/parallels-between-homeschool-and-bitcoin
• Tali’s “Quick Start” checklist  https://www.freemarketkids.com/blogs/i-want-to-start-homeschooling/i-want-to-start-homeschooling-quick-start-checklist

Mentioned in this episode:

Aleia Free Market Kids Full

Hi everyone.

2

In today's podcast, Talia and

I are going to review a helpful

3

resource for homeschooling parents.

4

And this is a book that is also very

appropriate for your kids curriculum.

5

So really quick, before we jump

in, I want to take just a moment to

6

explain some context of what we're,

of what we're going to talk about.

7

It is based on a method of study that

involves biographies and autobiographies.

8

So you might've heard biographical

research or life history, and it

9

is exactly what it sounds like.

10

So the approach is essentially

doing a, a study of someone's

11

life, their experiences, and.

12

And then from that, you learn

about the history or the culture

13

or social context, other things

that help shape those experiences.

14

And it's very, very effective.

15

Especially with, um,

especially with audible books.

16

You can use this with very young children.

17

I say this as an engineer who

did not enjoy or appreciate

18

history while I was in school.

19

An example I have of, to show how

effective it is, is a book that I really

20

enjoy listening to called Team of Rivals.

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This is about Lincoln.

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And it was written by a

woman named Doris Goodwin.

23

And it basically explains how he came

to be president and his relationship

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with his cabinet, which was his rivals.

25

Hugely interesting, even as an engineer.

26

So today's podcast, we're going to

use this kind of technique in the

27

book where we're reviewing is the

art of learning by Josh Waiskin.

28

I hope you enjoy.

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And with that, let's jump in.

30

Tali: You have to be able to get past

that the opening move and have enough

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endurance and mental discipline to

get through to the end of the game.

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And that's the comparison he

had between , the high time

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preference and low time preference.

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Scott: he applies the same type

of methodology that he did in

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chess matches into martial arts.

36

You could apply that to anything.

37

You could apply that to yourself and

becoming the best homeschooling parent.

38

Ever.

39

,

Tali: The highest level athletes all learn this from their performance

40

coaches, but for whatever reason it

doesn't trickle down to common education

41

Scott: you're not going to go

through life and not have setbacks.

42

So your, your choice is

what do you do about it?

43

Right.

44

, if you read this book and you're

inspired, maybe you can learn to invest

45

in loss and use it to make you yourself

better, use it to advance your goals.

46

Tali: For the homeschoolers out there,

I would encourage you to use living

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books like this as much as possible

48

Scott: Welcome Bitcoin homeschoolers.

49

Today, Talia and I are going to

look at a resource that you might

50

not expect would be helpful.

51

But as you, uh, as we go through this

conversation, I think that you'll

52

find, , there's, there's something

in here for parents and there's

53

something in here for, for kids.

54

Specifically, we're talking

about the book called The Art

55

of Learning by Josh Waitzkin.

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Josh Waitzkin is best known as the

person that the movie, Seeking,

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uh, Bobby Fischer was based on.

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Tali: In search of Bobby Fisher.

59

From a

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Scott: Alright, thank you.

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In search of Bobby Fisher.

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So, from a homeschooling standpoint,

the first thing that I want to say is to

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be open minded about how we teach kids

and not just give them a list of facts.

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The idea of using biographies, or in

this case, maybe, An autobiography.

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This is a way of helping someone really

understand the context of what some of

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these historic figures have gone through.

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And in this case, this

person is still alive.

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So I guess maybe not historic, but

it's a lot more personal than a list

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of names and dates, and especially

if you listen to it on audible, you

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can actually hear it in their own.

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On voice for, the reason Josh Waiskin

kind of hit, he had a few things

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for, for me personally, he talks

about a lot of concepts that we as

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parents can use to be better teachers.

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And he also has a very

interesting story, so you can

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either take away pieces of this.

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And how you teach or maybe

for the older kids, they can

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actually read it themselves.

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So depending on the age of your,

your students, they can be, they

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can take different things from it.

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So, all right, tell me, do you,

we, I have a list of things

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to, deep dive on this thing.

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Is there one particular area that stood

out that you'd like to start with?

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Tali: Well, in referencing what you said

about reading autobiography as a way

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of kids learning, it's, it's basically

if you, if you know the Charlotte Mason

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method, it's basically equivalent to what

they're saying about learning through

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living books because authors who write.

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On a subject that they're absolutely

passionate about have a tone

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and a voice that comes through

that is absolutely absent for

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Things that you would read in a textbook

that's by a subject that's written

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by what they would quote unquote call

experts, but The emotionally it's flat.

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And as human beings, we relate to

things emotionally first and foremost.

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And so learning, reading a living

book written by an author who's

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passionate about the subjects is

absolutely the best way to get your kids

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interested in the information itself.

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So

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for people who are not interested in

chess or in Tai Chi and the martial arts

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aspect of Tai Chi can still learn a lot

about his learning process because you do

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get emotionally sucked into his stories.

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Scott: Yeah, his stories, they're

about what he went through.

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Learning the stresses, people who

cheated on him, how he dealt with

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that when he got to martial arts,

he basically went from literally

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knowing nothing to, to world champion.

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And he's a deep, deep thinker.

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So he, he thinks about the longterm,

he doesn't call it low time preference,

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but he definitely thinks about the

longterm and he's definitely anti

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fragile he'll, he'll hit a setback.

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Someone will do something and it'll upset

him or he'll lose or whatever it is.

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And he will journal and he will say,

what, what state was I in at this time?

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And then he'll go back and

then he'll, he'll study more.

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He, he talked about the number of

times that he would review his games

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and what he was feeling on them.

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The number of times that he would

review his tapes from the martial arts.

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So I would, I just want to

get this out, out in front.

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To me, he exhibits the qualities of

someone who can really get into flow.

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And.

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There's, uh, my understanding of,

of, of flow that you, you need

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to have clear specific goals.

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And he definitely did that.

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He had these long term objectives.

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You need immediate feedback.

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And this is where he just excels

and where the, there's a ton to

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learn in from the art of learning.

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And then the challenge has to be something

that's outside your current skill level.

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And so he just, he applies the same

type of methodology that he did in

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chess matches into martial arts.

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And to me, that means you

could apply that to anything.

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You could apply that to yourself and

becoming the best homeschooling parent.

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Ever.

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You could apply that to teaching your

kids on how they can get into flow,

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how they can deal with setbacks,

how they can deal with stress,

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how they can, how they can learn.

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And you can apply it to your career.

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You could apply it to anywhere.

134

It's, it's, it's, uh, I think it's

really a good, the, the name of

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the book being art of learning.

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Really captures it and he just proves

it with two very different areas and he

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makes a lot of analogies between them.

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And and then tolly you you hit on this

he uses a lot of stories in this thing So

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this is something you can actually listen

to it's not dry at all Some of the stories

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will really pull you in all right.

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Tali: Me add something.

142

Let me add something.

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So, he draws in an actually,

he doesn't draw an analogy.

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Um, he states in the book that this

is referencing his chess games.

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He said that who he was as a person was

absolutely reflected in the way he played.

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And so you can't really separate the two.

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And I've heard people say that your

success can never, you can never out

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success the strength of a character.

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And in that way, if we.

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Allow our kids to listen to this, or even

if we listen to it and then relate the

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lessons to our kids, we can stress the

importance of not the accomplishments

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or the outcome of your efforts, but

rather your personal growth through

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the journey, because he does reference

that over and over again as he's going

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through the difference, the struggle,

the struggle of losing and then having to

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maintain his composure when he was under

pressure and how he was under pressure.

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Overcame those mental, growth milestones.

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Scott: Maybe we can tell a couple

of the stories that he, what he did.

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So the, the ability from a game

theory standpoint of being able

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to put yourself in somebody else's

shoes and seeing it from their

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perspective, he's a master at this.

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He, he, he would, regardless of

whether it was a chess opponent

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or a martial arts opponent.

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He really did.

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He really went deep on what they,

what they were thinking, how they

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reacted, not just like their, their

strategies or their techniques.

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He would go really deep.

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And then he would use this,

this, this adaptive learning.

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He was getting constant feedback and,

and it wasn't just like, Hey, good job or

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bad job or whatever, you know, whatever

after a chess match or another match.

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This was a matter of saying, well,

if you tell someone feedback or

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you give someone feedback right

after they've had a challenge,

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they're not ready to receive that.

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So even knowing when and how to

communicate that, that feedback.

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He would, he would even adapt, he would

continue to adapt not just his techniques,

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but he would continue to adapt his

learning techniques on how he would do it.

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And the idea of these constant feedback

loops is really, really interesting.

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And you start off with, he talked about

making smaller and smaller circles.

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You'd, you can start out with,

with whatever it is, you've

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got to learn the basic things.

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And then once you're, once you've mastered

those, and you can learn the next level

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of the basic things and the next level,

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Tali: The

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Scott: The thing that sticks out to

me is In today's society, there's

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always somebody to blame, right?

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No one wants to, it's not

like we teach responsibility.

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At West Point, we'd say, one of your

responses was, it was like, yes, sir.

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No, sir.

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You could say, , sir, may I ask

a question, but it was no excuse.

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He didn't, it was one of your responses

was not, , someone else hurt me.

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Or someone else cheated and

he gave specific examples.

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So there was a, an individual

when he was going through his,

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his chess career, who would

intentionally distract his opponents.

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And he would get up and talk to you.

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It's like he was speaking another

language, Russian or whatever it

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was, or he would tap or he would

do, he was doing things that

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were clearly against the rules.

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And one reaction could

be to go and complain.

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You go to the judges and you say, this

guy, this, this kid is doing stuff.

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That's, that's really bad.

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And he's, they're doing it on purpose.

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So one of the things that Weitzkin

did is he went back and he figured out

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Tali: So,

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Scott: how basically to, to use that

to his own advantage on, he changed his

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techniques playing with that individual.

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So first of all, what is the trigger?

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And he could recognize the trigger.

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Okay.

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He's using the technique.

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And then he had practiced

how to respond to that.

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And basically.

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He changed the game on this person.

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Yes, it wasn't and it wasn't just

a matter of going say hey someone

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else You need to go police this guy.

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He did the same thing in martial arts.

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He was talking about the the championship

It was like every two years it was in

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Taiwan and he got into what the culture

was like and he was going against a

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very popular local champion and There

were blatant, blatant, blatant things,

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times when the judges would do things

that favored the opponent, like they,

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the opponent knew changes to the rules

ahead of time, but they wouldn't tell

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the foreigners until the last minute.

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And then they would try to,

they wouldn't give them food.

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And then when they wouldn't eat, then

they would immediately call them there.

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So now they're in a bad state when, um,

they're not in a less ideal state when

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they're competing and they just did.

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And then there was the calls that they

made and there was all these different

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things that were part of the culture.

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That essentially it's like the referee

basically favoring one, one team.

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So the next time he went back, he had

changed a lot of different things.

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And in the moment when these things

would happen, he was able to still focus.

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So long way of saying in this world, there

are going to be people out there who do

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things to, to hurt you, who don't play

fair, bad things are going to happen.

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So it's, it's a lot more

than just the psychology of.

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The opponent and thinking through step

by step, it's also knowing yourself

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and really understanding yourself.

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Now imagine if you had those skills,

imagine if your kids had those skills,

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how much better off they would be.

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I

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Tali: I think the illustration he

made in the book was staying soft.

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So in the case when his opponent was

cheating, he could get angry and allow

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that to break his concentration, or

he can train himself to work with

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it and win despite the cheating.

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So that was a self improvement moment

rather than a anger, uh, lash out or

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just play victim kind of mentality.

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And obviously it's, it's unfair.

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Nobody's going to question that statement,

but You after that, what do you do?

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and he always just dealt with it and

worked with what he had to work with

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and Then try to figure out a way to beat

it one example he gave was the the time

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when he was crossing the street in New

York and this lady Next to him had her

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earphones in and she looked at the down

the wrong side of the street stepped off

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the curb And a bike messenger almost hit

her instead of realizing her mistake,

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which was that she wasn't paying attention

and she looked down the wrong side of

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the street, she turned and yelled at the

bike messenger that was speeding away.

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Well, as she was doing that, she

missed another car that was coming

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around the corner and she was hit.

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So the lesson was, . You can recognize

your mistake and correct your own

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actions, or you can focus your attention

on blaming and then potentially hurt

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yourself even more in the long run.

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Scott: Right, you're managing

stress at a level that most

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people just don't, don't do.

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So it's the soft zone.

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Yeah, that, that was excellent.

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Another, another area that he

talked about was investing in loss.

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So throughout the book, no matter

what he was talking about, no

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matter how frustrating and how

bad things were, and he would

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document in his journal how he felt.

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I, I'm mad, I'm hurt, I'm this, I'm

whatever, but he, he actually embraces

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the idea that you have to make mistakes.

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You have to have losses.

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And if you, if you embrace loss as

a way to, to take from it something

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that can make you better than.

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Then you're, you're

basically in, it's weird.

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It's a weird way of saying it,

but you're investing in the loss.

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So you have to get yourself out there.

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You have to take action.

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And then from a feedback standpoint, it's

not just saying I had that experience

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and then I want to go forget about it.

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It was more of the, it was much more

of a, let's, let's dissect this thing.

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Let me go and see the eye movements of

my, uh, Opponents, they're the smallest

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way that they would shift their weight or

not shift their weight or maybe someone

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would change their breathing right

before they would do a certain thing.

281

I mean you're telling my new,

but he didn't start there.

282

He had a, um, he went through

a lot of, a lot of pain and,

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Tali: through a lot of,

a lot of pain and, um,

284

Scott: also lose enough

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Tali: That you are continuously improving.

286

And that is a very difficult

balance to achieve.

287

And that is down to the player

or the competitor and also

288

a great coach in the book.

289

He also makes a comparison towards

the end of his chess career.

290

He was losing his passion and he Was

trying to break through to the next level

291

and he had a change of coaches and he

had two choices He had one coach who was

292

exceptionally Single minded about the

best way to train the students So his

293

approach was to break the student down

so that he can build them up in what

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he believed was the optimal way and his

way of playing was very very different

295

from Josh's natural inclination to play

The other coach spend the first part of

296

his coaching with a student by observing

the student and how the student played.

297

And then his method was to help

the student excel in the way that

298

the student naturally played.

299

So two very, very different approaches.

300

And Josh makes a comparison

between the two of them.

301

One, the one that he chose to go with,

Which ultimately ended his career was the

302

guy who made him feel like he shouldn't

trust himself because he was instructed

303

to think, what would his coach do?

304

And in that way, he started

to ignore his instinct.

305

He felt like he wasn't playing himself.

306

He watched, he felt like he was

watching himself play from a distance.

307

And so.

308

That balance of encouragement and

correction, that's a fine line to walk.

309

And so he made that comparison,

and I think it's really helpful

310

for students, not students, for

homeschooling parents to think that way.

311

You know, to, to pay really close

attention to, to that balance

312

of teaching and encouraging.

313

Scott: Right, and it might

depend on the student too, right?

314

It's not going to be the

same for each, uh, student.

315

The, the second thing about that

is, he gave a lot of thought to

316

who he wanted to be coached by.

317

This wasn't a He was very much going to

make the future he wanted, and he gave

318

a great deal of thought to who was right

for him, even though, like your, imagine

319

telling your friend, Hey, you're, you

can't be my business partner anymore

320

because we've reached a new level.

321

Tali: So,

322

Scott: terms of his, his coaching.

323

He had grown close to these,

these individuals because we

324

spent a lot of time together.

325

So he was thinking

about the bigger picture.

326

And so not only did he recognize

all the things that you just said,

327

but then he also had the courage

to, to make a decision, right?

328

Also, he talked about the beginners, I

don't know if he called it the beginner's

329

mind, but he, he was always open to

new, new perspective and approaches

330

no matter how experienced you got.

331

And I, and I think he mentioned

that, for example, a lot of chess

332

clubs , the coaches would be tempted

to just teach the kids a whole

333

bunch of starting moves, right?

334

A whole bunch of things.

335

Tali: And

336

Scott: Initially, this, depending on

the age, this can be very effective

337

in terms of helping new chess players

do very well against their opponents.

338

But in longer games and things

in tournaments and like that, it

339

doesn't necessarily help them there.

340

And, and his approach was to

focus on the fundamentals.

341

And so.

342

He just kept learning and

learning and learning.

343

He, he

344

Tali: can I, can I correct you actually?

345

So, The example you're giving about

the kids who are learning chess,

346

what the difference, the differences

between what he believes is.

347

The best way and what a lot of chess

clubs teach their students is the

348

chess clubs teach their students to

memorize aggressive opening moves

349

Whereas josh started by being trained

with three pieces on the board.

350

He was He was learning the

ending moves when there were

351

very few pieces on the board.

352

And so he learned to understand the

nuance and the power of each individual

353

piece so that he could make sense of.

354

Chaos in the middle of the play and his

strength was in the ending of the game.

355

Whereas these students were taught

with the, what you would call, um,

356

high time preference because these

were elementary school chess coaches

357

and their job was to make sure that

their students placed high that year.

358

And so if they were a third year

359

Scott: student coaches,

360

Tali: They didn't care that the

students would not progress beyond

361

seventh or eighth grade because they

were, they had done their job making

362

these kids into champions in the third

grade by teaching them or having them

363

memorize aggressive opening moves.

364

Aggressive opening moves work if you

are competing against other new players.

365

Scott: chess players.

366

Tali: But when you get into the more

experienced chess player games, you

367

have to be able to get past that

the opening move and have enough

368

endurance and mental discipline to

get through to the end of the game.

369

And that's the comparison he had

between the long, the high time

370

preference and low time preference.

371

If you have a long term view and Josh did

because he was looking, he was looking at.

372

A

373

Scott: long

374

Tali: term view.

375

What's another way of saying it?

376

He was just

377

Scott: low time preference.

378

Tali: was, yeah, he was just looking

at, you know, how would the student

379

develop eventually versus the coach

of one grade year and the chess club

380

training that was offered in that year.

381

Does that make sense?

382

Scott: sense?

383

Yeah.

384

So I, yeah, I don't disagree

with everything you're saying.

385

I remember, I recall what

you're, you're talking about.

386

And I, I think I, the, the point I was

trying to make, and maybe I blurred

387

them together was if you're, if

you're always open to, even when you

388

get better, let's say you've, you've

trained up to a certain high level.

389

Some people just stagnate there.

390

They don't make it to champion.

391

And he was always open to keep on learning

new perspectives, new approaches, new.

392

Techniques knew whatever, what it was.

393

So the, okay, here's a different example.

394

He gave, he was in the gym and

he said he wanted to get better.

395

So he, he was starting to get paired

up with, some giants of a, like

396

some huge guy who was also like

multiple black belts, whatever else.

397

And this opponent of

his, but usually just,

398

Tali: he

399

Scott: just dominate whoever he

was in the, in the dojo with him.

400

And.

401

He kept every night going back and

doing it again and again and again,

402

even though he was literally getting

thrown to the mats and literally

403

getting whatever bruises you get

from being tossed around so much.

404

But through time he, he was

learning the techniques.

405

He was learning the tells, if you will.

406

And That person stagnated where they

were, whereas he was continuing to get

407

better and better looking for new things.

408

And he eventually was able one, one

day when he was there, he was able to,

409

where he got to throw in and it got

to the point where he was able to beat

410

this person who physically otherwise

would, should be dominating him.

411

And then after that, the guy didn't want

to, didn't want to fight him anymore.

412

So Josh's approach was, I'm going to

keep fighting this guy who's a lot

413

better than me until I figure it out.

414

The other guy was, as soon as

he had someone that actually

415

beat him, he wanted to stop.

416

Because he could dominate everybody else.

417

And so, the other guy was not a

martial arts champion, and Josh was.

418

And I think it comes back to

Josh's perspective on always

419

being open to new experiences.

420

Perspective approaches, no matter

what level you've reached, no

421

matter what level of parenting,

what level of schooling, whatever.

422

So different than what you were saying,

still an important lesson, I think.

423

Tali: Well, the thing about the, the

Um, kids were taught the aggressive

424

opening moves and will win quickly.

425

And what they, the way that they

will compare their scorecard

426

with each other would be how many

moves did you make before you won?

427

So that was their scorecard.

428

And when they got older and

they didn't win all the time

429

anymore, these kids all quit.

430

And that kind of goes back

to what you're saying is.

431

Scott: That,

432

Tali: that sense of anti fragile

mentality, that cannot happen

433

if they're always winning.

434

That's why that investment

in loss is so important.

435

Uh,

436

Scott: Hmm.

437

Yep.

438

Uh, there, there are a couple other

areas that I thought were worthy of, of.

439

Trying to put it incorporated

into your, your homeschooling

440

experience, because again, these are

things that I would like to learn.

441

I wish I had learned

earlier technique wise.

442

And there's, there are things that had.

443

Had we been able to teach our own

kids some of these principles,

444

I would love to have more

deliberately taught some of them.

445

One of the ones, and I know that, Talia,

I know we talked about visualization

446

with our, with our, with our kids, but

the, one of the examples Josh Wason

447

goes into in depth about visualization

and how he uses it to prepare for,

448

Matches how he prepares for how he's

going to handle his feelings and things.

449

One of the ones that stuck out

to me was he had, he had broken

450

his, uh, I think it was his wrist.

451

He, he, he broke something in his

hand and the doctors basically

452

said, you're not going to be able

to compete at the world championship

453

that you've been preparing for.

454

And.

455

They basically said, you're going to

cast for this long and then you're going

456

to get it off like a week or so before

then there's not enough time for you with

457

all the muscle atrophy to, to recover.

458

And he would still continue to work

out for the rest of his body, like

459

his weights and things that he could,

except for the one that was immobile

460

with the, with the cast, but he was

visualizing using it the whole time.

461

And when he actually had the cast off,

they, the doctors were amazed at how.

462

Little atrophy had actually experienced

during that, and he was actually

463

able to go back and compete and, and

the, the, I don't want to ruin the

464

punchline, but he does end up winning.

465

So the, the power of his, and I'm, and I'm

not saying you're going to go out there

466

and heal yourself, but, but man, he, he

really put in the work with visualization.

467

I mean, he really would,

uh, would do that.

468

And that is a skill that if you could

teach a young kid, you know, And just

469

so that they think that visualization is

a normal type thing to use to prepare.

470

And then afterwards, how to handle

those failures and all those

471

other things we just talked about.

472

These are great anti fragile skill

sets to, that can really help our

473

kids out as they, as they grow.

474

So anyway, did, was there

anything from a visualization

475

standpoint that stood out for you?

476

Tali: Yeah, I I think I, I shared

a study with the kids when we

477

were going through homeschooling.

478

And the example was, two, two study

groups, one study group played musical

479

scales physically on the piano every

day for a certain amount of time.

480

The other group played it only in

their mind for the same amount of time.

481

And at the end of the study,

they were supposed to play

482

the scales and the group that.

483

Okay.

484

Did the visualization actually performed

better I can't reference that study you

485

can probably Google it but I I remember

talking about it with our kids because it

486

is so powerful and is so Unconventional

it the highest level athletes all learn

487

this from their performance coaches,

but for whatever reason it doesn't

488

trickle down to common education

489

Scott: Yeah, including visualization.

490

I don't think we're experts on

it, but including visualization

491

and what you teach your kids, uh,

that's pretty, pretty important.

492

Another thing that I, that I thought

would be a good habit to teach

493

kids would be the learning journal.

494

And it's more than, um, like I've

already referenced it a couple

495

of times in the conversation.

496

But he would go back, for example, and

look at his tapes and not just like,

497

whether it's chess or the martial

arts, and he would look at them and

498

look at them and look at them again,

and he would go back to his journal

499

and he would link the two together.

500

So.

501

What had gone on before that event,

what, what did he miss during it that

502

he could now the time had passed and

he was more calm, he could, he could

503

identify and then make a plan for it.

504

But he would realize, Hey, I

really was thrown off my game

505

Tali: at

506

Scott: this point because

this is what I was feeling.

507

And he would, he would have kind

of this insight about himself.

508

But it was only because he had

been keeping a journal of his,

509

his, his progress and was able

to go back and then apply it.

510

So it was, it was, it was more than

just keeping a journal and then you,

511

you don't go back and look at it.

512

It, this was a matter of, he was

proactively using it as a, as a tool.

513

And for, for super young kids,

just the habit of journaling is, is

514

probably all you would need to do.

515

Uh, but I, I would think that, you know,

junior high, high school, being able to

516

go back through past experiences and.

517

And link, link of what you were

feeling, how did you prepare, et cetera.

518

That's an interesting thing.

519

I don't, uh, I think very, very, very

few people or a very small percent of

520

the other population would do that.

521

And the ones that are doing it are

probably the ones that have some kind

522

of professional coach, but nothing stops

you or their kids from, from doing that.

523

Anybody can do that.

524

Tali: That

525

Scott: That was another thing too, is

that these are all things that there

526

was nothing that he said where you

said, man, he just had a God given

527

skill and nobody else can do anything.

528

The things that he was listing out

were like, it was like, wow, those are

529

things that anybody can use as a tool.

530

Maybe not everybody will achieve the

same, same level, but there's nothing

531

about these techniques that, that

are only, you know, for some given

532

select few of these, the things that

he listed out for these different

533

learning techniques, anybody can apply.

534

And again, I go back to, wouldn't

you want your kids to have

535

that, these kind of lessons.

536

So even if you only took one thing from

the book, , as I, as I think about this,

537

if we were sitting down with someone like

in person and talking about this, even if

538

you took away just one thing from the book

that can help improve either you or your

539

kids, uh, your, your habits in your life,

like, You, you would want to do that.

540

And, um, you know, don't trust

us, you know, verify for yourself.

541

Don't trust verify.

542

Um, the worst that you have is

you lose a couple hours, few

543

hours listening to an audible book

544

Tali: Doing it.

545

Um,

546

Scott: doing it.

547

Um, but I liked the journal.

548

Did you, did you have any

thoughts on the journal?

549

Tali: thoughts on the journal?

550

I think the journal is a great idea.

551

I don't think it's practical

for a lot of people.

552

So, you know, take from it what

you can and don't feel like

553

any, you have to do any of it.

554

Take, take from it what you

can and what you can apply.

555

And that's the most important thing.

556

Another thing I want to

mention from the book.

557

It's something that we've already

talked about before in the previous

558

episodes, but I just want to reiterate

because it is, it is a common cultural

559

Scott: belief

560

Tali: I believe that I think we

should try to overcome, which

561

is this whole notion of talent.

562

, I just hear so many people say, Oh,

I'm just not good at math, almost like,

563

therefore they shouldn't have to try kind

of thing, or I'm just not good at writing.

564

I, I suck at spelling or

something like that, like talent,

565

Trump's effort, and he makes it.

566

A point in this book that if that as

parents, when you give feedback to your

567

kids, the nuance is what determines

that the belief in one way or the

568

other, the, the talent versus effort.

569

So for example, if your child comes

home and she's gotten an A, In math and

570

you say, Oh my gosh, you're so smart.

571

You're so good at math.

572

You're really highlighting

the talent side.

573

But if you say something like, I'm so

proud of you, you work so hard, then

574

you're emphasizing the effort side.

575

If she comes home and

she gets, let's say a C.

576

In English, you can, you don't have to

say, Oh, you know, terrible at English.

577

It's just not, it's not your strong suit.

578

You can say something like, well, maybe

next time you work a little harder on your

579

paper and ask your teacher some questions.

580

That's what she's there for.

581

She can help you.

582

And then you emphasize that.

583

The effort is what is the most important.

584

And in that way, you also empower

your child in whatever pursue,

585

you know, it down the road.

586

A book I would like to recommend

is called the talent code.

587

And it specifically addresses this,

this notion of talent versus effort.

588

It's a very, very small book.

589

You can look it up on

Amazon, the talent code.

590

Scott: on Amazon.

591

Yeah, no, I remember you

talking about that previously.

592

So some of these concepts

are going to tie.

593

We've now, a lot of these things

tie into each other, so we can kind

594

of go more quickly through them.

595

I have a note here about the

idea of incremental learning

596

and the feedback loops.

597

So we've talked about how

he would break down things.

598

He'd start with whatever it is and they

have his circles and he would get smaller

599

and smaller and keep on, , refining.

600

You should explain

601

Tali: what that means.

602

Scott: So Yeah.

603

I wish I could do it as articulately as he

does, but I mean, when you, when you first

604

go in to learn, for example, martial arts,

or I guess you could even use a chess,

605

you're, you're not going to try to learn

the same type of things that a master in

606

those areas is going to be focused on.

607

Right.

608

You don't, you don't go to a novice

in martial arts and talk about the

609

opponent's breathing and where their

body weight is and whatever else

610

you're just, you're going to, you

need to learn the muscle memory.

611

Of the most basic movements so that

you can, you can get those down and the

612

same thing with chess, like you said

earlier, where he learned how each piece

613

worked and he learned how each pairing.

614

So this is how the Knight

and the Bishop work together.

615

This is how the Rook and

the Bishop work together.

616

This is how the Knight, I mean,

and then you build up and build up

617

and you eventually get to the point

where you're working on strategies.

618

High level strategies as opposed to just

starting with here's an opening move.

619

Here's your strategy on that

620

Tali: Well, I will explain

it the opposite way.

621

So I'll use Tai Chi Chan as an example.

622

When you're a novice, you follow

the teacher and you understand the

623

general, the steps, you know, the

choreography, the general way you

624

should, , lift your arm and the way

that you should put one step forward and

625

bend your knees and that kind of thing.

626

So very general things, but eventually

as you get more and more advanced,

627

you start to get into this really.

628

Really nuance things like where

is your hip when you stand?

629

Is it in the center of your

right foot like your hip weight?

630

Is it to the left?

631

Is it to the right?

632

Is your weight on your big

toes, your weight on your heel?

633

So when you get more advanced you

you start to break down each movement

634

into smaller smaller pieces It's

the nuance in the nuance is how

635

you win and improve your skills.

636

Not the big flow.

637

So it's like a 10, 000 foot You know

like Bert's eye view of what's going

638

on and then eventually you, you funnel

narrower and narrower into the nuances.

639

I think that's what you're

referring to, right?

640

Scott: Well, I liked the

way you explained that.

641

And that makes sense a lot with

a lot of his examples of, of what

642

he was looking for when he was.

643

What, when he was getting to the

highest levels of competition, the, the

644

smallest of details and how much time

he spent on the things that he never

645

would have even been able to notice

before, because he was trying to learn

646

the, the, I think he used an analogy

of like learning to drive, right?

647

Like you, first thing you need to do

is like, like the car needs to move.

648

And so you just like learn how to

use the gas and the brakes, right?

649

Uh, the nuances of.

650

What's the weather like, the distance

one driver is keeping from another.

651

Are they, how much are

they moving or swaying?

652

Does that mean that they, maybe they're,

you know, they're, they're sleepy

653

or on drugs or something like you.

654

I forget what he used like that, but

you, the nuances of things, you can't see

655

those details when you first start out.

656

Because you're just focused on

the big, you're just learning the

657

big, the big picture of things.

658

, that's the also like

the muscle memory too.

659

Like you, you can't focus

on the smaller things.

660

If you're still trying

to do the basic things,

661

all right.

662

Um, Yeah, but they, , incremental

learning, feedback loops, the deep focus.

663

We touched about that early on immersion.

664

He, he certainly, uh, Waze can, he

is, he goes deep, he goes really,

665

really deep on anything that he does.

666

And I don't know if everybody.

667

It has that, um, the willingness to,

to go as deep, but on the, on the other

668

hand, let's, let's talk this quickly

to, to tools and technologies that are

669

available today, we've talked about

that, like the whole idea of Jeff booth

670

and tech where technology is going.

671

It's very.

672

You know, Bitcoin thing, it's that's

deflationary versus money, but you look

673

at where AI is today and you look at

all the, the, the different things we

674

have, you can, you can get creative and

use technology to help with feedback.

675

Just the fact that you can record

things, um, at different levels.

676

And now, now you could even probably

put some of those things you could play.

677

If you were competing in chess, you could

probably put that into an AI, AI program.

678

Let it analyze it for

you to, um, I don't know.

679

I haven't tried that myself, but if you

want to look at where your heart rate is

680

and you're breathing, you can get like a

Garmin watch and you can get feedback on,

681

you know, how, how different things I, my

point is, I don't know exactly how to do.

682

I do.

683

I just know that., Get creative in

how you use technology and you don't

684

have to get to a world class level

to have some benefit in your life.

685

And there's a lot of things available

today that can help with feedback.

686

So that was my thought on,

uh, on the feedback loops.

687

Tali: Well, taking that tiny little

step further, he talks about how

688

when you become ultra focused, you

can notice the tiniest thing that's

689

happening within your own body.

690

So you're talking about wearing

a garment for biofeedback.

691

But I have found through meditation that

you know how people say, take your pulse

692

and you got to find your, the vein on

your neck or the vein on your wrist,

693

and then you can count the heartbeat.

694

When you pay attention, you don't

need that because you can feel

695

your heartbeat on your skin.

696

So when he's in flow, when he is

absolutely focused across the table from

697

his chest competitor or across the floor.

698

You know, with his Tai Chi Chen

competitor, he can feel their breathing,

699

he can feel the flicker of fear,

he can feel everything that they're

700

feeling as if it's his own because

he's paying that close attention.

701

And I, I think even as we're relying

more and more on technology to give

702

us feedback, don't forget how powerful

we already are within our own body.

703

Scott: body.

704

When we started off this discussion,

why did we pick Josh Wadeskin?

705

And part of it is you can learn a lot

from like we were talking about, like

706

a, an autobiography or biography.

707

He actually does have a lot

of techniques where he says,

708

here's my, my toolkit for that.

709

But one of the things I liked

about it is he's a model.

710

Like he has a, there's a, I have a mental

image now of someone who knows how to

711

get into flow based on his ability to.

712

Go through all the things we

were just talking about and

713

one of the reasons to pick him.

714

I'm sorry you went

715

Tali: just ask something as

you're mentioning the flow thing?

716

I thought one more thing I want

to talk about from the book that

717

he shared with us that I think

would be really interesting is one.

718

I remember when the kids were really

little, we were told that babies needed

719

a quiet place to sleep that when it's

nap time, it's like the phone is off the

720

you, you pull down the shade, you close

the door and it's like silence and quiet.

721

And you it's almost like you have

to create this environment in

722

order to help your baby sleep.

723

And he was talking about how when

he was playing chess, if there were

724

external, um, Like interruptions.

725

So, for example, when he was facing the

kid who was very, very, What's it called?

726

Underhandedly tapping his

727

Scott: his, uh,

728

Tali: chest piece when he knew

that Josh was making a decision

729

because he can read Josh too.

730

That, that little imperceptible noise

was picked up by his subconscious

731

mind and it distracted him.

732

And then he said what he did going forward

was to train himself to be able to focus.

733

in the middle of chaos.

734

So he would turn up all different

genre of music and blast it in

735

his room as he's trying to focus.

736

And that was how he trained

his ability to focus.

737

And I think that it's really important as

parents, we train our kids to be able to

738

focus in the middle of chaos, because the

condition is never going to be perfect.

739

And if we If we tell the kids that

conditions have to be perfect, as

740

in turn off your music, as in pull

the shade down, you know, you have

741

to sit in your chair and everything.

742

Everybody has to be quiet.

743

Everybody's a tiptoe

so that you can focus.

744

Then then that's that's really

doing your child a disservice.

745

Scott: Mm hmm.

746

No, I, I agree with that.

747

Um, it's interesting.

748

So where, where I was going is.

749

The one of the reasons to read

this book is he's interesting.

750

He has a ton of really cool,

interesting stories throughout.

751

This is not a, this is not a,

and then I did Y and then I

752

did Z and then I did whatever.

753

He has all kinds of

interesting stories in there.

754

So it's real life.

755

You can learn from it from, from a

parenting standpoint, you, you can, you

756

can learn how to deal with stress better.

757

We can learn how to deal with setbacks

better and distractions better.

758

All of us can learn this even at a, as

an adult, we can do better with that.

759

But there's also things you can

take away from it for your kids, no

760

matter what, what level they're at.

761

You just have to adapt what those.

762

What those concepts are.

763

So if you're trying to teach

how to embrace loss to, uh, an

764

elementary age student, that's

probably gonna be different than.

765

A middle aged student and the things

that you would ask in a high school,

766

Tali: necessarily embrace loss

767

Scott: Yeah.

768

Tali: learn from loss, I think.

769

Scott: he embraced it.

770

Yeah, that's what he

called the investment in,

771

Tali: He called it investment in

772

Scott: investment in loss.

773

Tali: embracing loss.

774

Scott: I took it.

775

No, I took it as he's embracing loss.

776

That was my interpretation of it.

777

He, he was seeking that because he

knew that's how he would get better.

778

He intentionally.

779

What he would, those were the, he didn't

get better by just winning, right?

780

He didn't get better by

having things come easy.

781

All of his points where he got to the

next level were because he had a challenge

782

and he had to overcome that challenge.

783

It was the loss.

784

It was a distraction.

785

It was the feelings.

786

It was not being able to

focus, whatever it was.

787

I took it as he really embraces

it when he says, invest in loss.

788

Like he's saying, instead of

me getting mad about this.

789

Um, this is my fuel.

790

This is making me better.

791

Tali: he did describe it as

somebody when he would lose a game.

792

He described it as somebody

ripping the heart out of his

793

chest and stumping on it on

794

Scott: floor.

795

I would

796

Tali: call it embracing loss.

797

He literally is investing in loss so that

he can learn from loss so that he can win.

798

Scott: did he do after he did that though?

799

He didn't give up.

800

Tali: He didn't give up, but he

did, he did emphasize the importance

801

of stepping away from the game.

802

So he talked about his, his

family taking him fishing.

803

After big competitions, he would

just go on a boat and be on the

804

beach and chase, you know, run around

with the, the The kids who were, who

805

were there, they're his playmates.

806

And he was able to really fully step away.

807

And you know, when he said he would

come back from a competition, like some

808

famous world competition and his friends

at school would just say, how'd it go?

809

He'll say, I want to be like gay.

810

And then they will be

outside playing football.

811

You need that mental break

from this intensity of

812

Scott: and competing

813

Tali: learning and competing

and things like that.

814

And I think that's.

815

That's something that's important for

816

Scott: but he, but

817

Tali: know as well.

818

Scott: what, when I mean embrace

it, yes, he had that break.

819

He came back to it when he was

in a different, more calm state.

820

But he still went through the tapes.

821

He still went through his journal.

822

He still went through whatever

feedback he could get.

823

He didn't just take a break

and then come back and

824

Tali: No,

825

Scott: practicing.

826

He was, he

827

Tali: it.

828

He faced his losses.

829

He didn't shy away from his losses.

830

He learned from his, his losses.

831

And in that way he got

832

Scott: he got better.

833

Right.

834

And I don't think most people, I'm

trying to use his words, I don't

835

think most people would invest.

836

That time to rip apart in

great detail, their losses.

837

Most people would say they're

probably glad it's done.

838

What does he do?

839

He embraces it and he goes back and

says, I'm going to go work through this.

840

I'm going to figure out what happened.

841

And yeah, he had a lot of moments

where things didn't go his way,

842

but that's, I mean, that's part of

why this is an interesting read.

843

Tali: I can't remember who it was.

844

It might have been Zig Ziglar.

845

Uh, he's the sales coach and

the, the phrase goes like this.

846

If you want to, if you want to succeed

faster, you got to fail even faster.

847

Scott: Right.

848

Tali: If you want to succeed

fast, you got to fail even faster.

849

Scott: Right.

850

Yeah.

851

That, that to me is

investing in, in the loss.

852

So if you teach, if you teach

your kids that, or you learn that.

853

Then yeah, there's, you're not going to

go through life and not have setbacks.

854

So your, your choice is

what do you do about it?

855

Right.

856

And he, if you, if you read this

book and you're inspired, maybe

857

you can learn to invest in loss

and use it to make you yourself

858

better, use it to advance your goals.

859

So I'm just saying, that's how I took

it that he's embracing this thing.

860

That,

861

Tali: Okay.

862

So, so I would encourage.

863

For the homeschoolers out there, I would

encourage you to use living books like

864

this as much as possible because you can

have lots of really lively discussions

865

with your kids at the dinner table.

866

They will take away from it

what they need in that moment.

867

And the beauty of hearing lessons in

story form is that we remember them.

868

Because if you just give them a

lecture and you just give them the

869

nuggets, they're not going to remember.

870

But if you tell them the

story when they need it.

871

It'll come up for them.

872

So yeah, more living books.

873

Check out this one.

874

Scott: It's a

875

Tali: It's a great read.

876

And, um, I really think that

the family can have some

877

really interesting discussions.

878

Scott: really interesting discussions.

879

I think that is perfect advice.

880

Yeah, the more living books and then

having the discussions about them so that

881

you can actually get, you know, literally

have a human discussion, not be on there

882

just texting or whatever people do now.

883

So um, I think we wrap up right

there because that, that's what

884

I would take away from this thing

is if you don't, don't trust us,

885

verify, get the book yourself.

886

And if you don't, then get

a different living book.

887

But the concept of using them, like you

said, It's a huge, hugely effective way

888

of reaching others and making an impact.

889

Plus you get to learn some

pretty interesting stuff.

890

Well, thank you everybody

for, for joining us.

891

We'll be back next week until then.

892

See you, see you later.