In today’s episode, I’m joined by Nigel Cumberland — leadership coach, co-founder of The Silk Road Partnership, and author of several bestselling books including 100 Things Successful Leaders Do.

Nigel and I get into:

• The pivotal conversation that helped him redefine who he was
• His early career as a very young finance director
• Why mistakes became his greatest teachers
• Imposter syndrome & how he learned to handle it
• Culture clashes and the importance of understanding differences
• The evolution of leadership across decades
• Why leadership starts with self-awareness
• Leadership beyond titles — influencing in everyday life
• Why leaders today are more overwhelmed than ever
• His framework: Grounded • Connected • Purposeful
• The biggest thing leaders need to unlearn
• The one leadership principle he believes changes everything
• The hidden cost of poor leadership
• How leaders can stay human in a very digital world

This is an honest, insightful, deeply human conversation about leadership — the kind that helps you rethink the way you show up in your work and life.

Links from the Episode

Nigel’s Website

👉 https://nigelcumberland.com/

Nigel’s Books

👉 https://www.amazon.com/stores/Nigel-Cumberland/author/B0034P71X2

LinkedIn Learning Courses

👉 https://www.linkedin.com/learning/instructors/nigel-cumberland

Speaking Enquiries

👉 https://www.wsb.com/speakers/nigel-cumberland/

00:00 Intro

01:04 The conversation that changed Nigel’s life

04:30 Resetting your identity after a big career shift

05:53 Mistakes that shaped him as a young leader

09:10 Imposter syndrome in early leadership roles

10:50 Culture clashes and understanding differences

14:05 Why self-awareness matters more than ever

16:40 Leadership beyond titles and formal roles

18:50 Role modelling at home and at work

19:22 The rise of empowerment in leadership

20:00 Helping people see themselves as leaders

23:00 Leadership in a disrupted, digital world

24:30 Grounded, Connected, Purposeful framework

29:44 What leaders struggle with most today

30:50 What people crave in leaders

34:21 Leading with a full tank: self-care and burnout

38:09 The most important principle healthy leaders live by

41:20 When bad leaders survive — and why they shouldn't

42:26 Closing thoughts

The best growth often starts with a meaningful conversation — thank you for being part of this one.

Welcome to Conversations That Grow, where we explore the moments that shape who we become as people and leaders. Each week, I sit down with leaders, founders, and changemakers to talk about the stories and the shifts that have shaped them, because real growth doesn't just happen through strategy, it happens through conversation. Today, I'm talking to Nigel Cumberland, leadership coach, co-founder of the Silk Road Partnership, and author of several bestselling books, including

a hundred things successful leaders do. Nigel has spent years working with leaders across the world, helping them lead with more clarity, intention, and meaning. Nigel, welcome. It's so good to have you here.

Thank you, Sadaf and I like your introduction. I like the way you framed your podcasts. I felt a bit positive as well, which is good. And I'm happy to be here following that conversation last week where we sort of got to know each other.

Thank you. Thank you.

That's right, yeah, thank you for coming on. Nigel, I'd love to kick things off with what's a conversation you've had that changed the way you lead or changed the way you see the world?

Well first of all thank you for asking me that question and warning me last week this would be the question because I've had time to think about it and it's quite a thought-provoking question. 20 odd years ago I was living in Hong Kong and I was a finance director with the UK ⁓ FTSE 100 group at the time called Coats Viola, finance director for the business in Hong Kong and China selling sewing threads and I made a decision to move on.

Mm.

And it wasn't easy being in Hong Kong, having just moved on from a corporate, expatriate role. I remember a conversation I had with someone ⁓ who I knew socially, who was older than me at the time, because I was then in my late 20s. And they said, Nigel, you know life, you'll get to realize it, but for me, your concern about your future, I don't think you have yet. But my point is, I like to share Nigel, if you think about it is...

you can constantly become something new, that we never stop growing and changing, and that you're not defined by a role you've had, and then leaving that role has suddenly changed who you are as a person. And it sits with me because I was literally in that time thinking, well, what do I do now? I chose them to stay on in Hong Kong, but I didn't really enjoy being in finance.

with a textile group anymore. And that conversation has sat with me. The sense of how you can give someone a few words and it can just help them reset. And also the advice in the conversation. I know now, 20 years plus later, how true it is. And I've reset.

who I was from being a corporate leader through to then being an entrepreneur, running my own recruitment businesses ⁓ in Hong Kong, selling that, then moving on to become a writer and a coach, and increasingly a keynote speaker. So it's a conversation that I take into my own conversations now. I've since learned psychology and I've coached so many people, I see patterns.

Yeah.

So I can very authentically talk to other people about your story's never over. You can reset, relearn, reform behind your job title, role, ego, life. There's you as a person. And so thank you for asking that question, Sadaf. And there's my answer, really. I hope it inspires the listeners of this podcast to think themselves about their life, having resets and starting again.

I love it.

and

isn't the end, I suppose, when something ends.

Yeah,

yeah, I love that. think it's such wise words to have heard, especially when you were still so young, because I think at that age too, you're thinking, well, what do I want to be? And you kind of box yourself into or you label it. But actually hearing those words, it kind of gives you permission to explore and keep exploring and keep growing. Did something when you heard that, did something shift in you?

think now, like that.

right away or did it take time to sink in? What was that process like?

It's one of those conversations that in hindsight, years later, I see it's been very profound and helpful. think at the time it was probably a positive thing. It gave me some reassurance because literally I went from being an expatriate, very young, but regional finance director, having been in Eastern Europe in Budapest based in Budapest in a similar role beforehand. It's a bit of a high flyer.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And then I ended up working a few years for a European recruitment group. Then set up my own recruitment firm. with having done all that, I realized how true what I learned in the conversation was. But at the time, I think it was just reassuring words. I hadn't maybe experienced that you can reset, reform, life goes on, you can...

Hmm.

go back to zero and rebuild etc etc but now i've done it a few times and i've sometimes i've struggled doing it ⁓

Mm-hmm.

And I feel energized by having gone through the changes I went through. But equally, there were some people who stayed in one organization for 35 years, rise, but maybe stay in the same job function, who were equally fulfilled. So I also realized how unique we all are as humans in the West. We all, the professionals, if I could use that word. And I've learned how unique we all are. So when I coach individuals, I'm really attuned to where are they?

Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

person because sometimes that conversation that I had wouldn't resonate or help another person but it definitely helped me.

like it was a gift that just keeps giving.

Yeah, that's what we are. Thanks, mate.

Yeah,

you've coached leaders across so many cultures and contexts, but I imagine your understanding of leadership wasn't built overnight. So when you think about your own journey into leadership, what has shaped you the most?

It was probably getting things wrong and making mistakes continually, thankfully not the same mistake all the time, but different mistakes. So I was becoming a formal leader in my mid twenties, I mean, very, very young to be made a finance director, for example. So that's now 30 years ago. So during the 30 years of being in corporate roles, being

and then running my own businesses. I'm framed by people telling me or me realizing ⁓ I could improve. And one thing about me is I've always been very open for feedback. Perhaps there's some issue there, like I doubt myself all the time, therefore I'm open for feedback. But I'm telling you, I'm happy I've been open for feedback.

got used to receiving critical feedback. I'm very open after giving a talk, a training, running a project, ⁓ leading a team. To ask people, what's it like to work with me? Could you give me some tips on things I should keep doing well? And what could I have done differently? Maybe anonymously tell me. What irritated you? How might I have held you back? So...

And I realize it's a never-ending journey to improve because leadership is about, well, what's the context you're in today? What are you trying to achieve? Who are the people? Who are you today at the moment? So even if in a previous role you did really well, you were flowing, you were aligned, you were inspiring, everyone was very happy, you were achieving results, well, change the context. Things can change.

And that leads to something later I'm happy to talk about is the way the world's changing now and how leaders may have been okay before, but now going through some really tumultuous changes in the world and challenging even leaders who thought they were okay in their roles, okay with their skill sets.

don't think that I would say that your openness to feedback is self-doubt. I would say, listening to you, that it's that love for continuous learning and growth. It kind of, you know, goes back to those roots of it's okay to change and try something different and explore something else.

So, thank you for those kind words. think with hindsight, you're probably right, but I think what kicked it off was probably doubting, probably imposter syndrome because I was fortunate. I was talking about 93, so I was 26 or 27 years old and I was appointed finance director for, was essentially a manufacturing business in Hungary and then we expanded to Poland and we were selling across Eastern Europe, so think that's.

And I was so much younger than anyone I was working with. And I suspect there were elements of imposter syndrome, like, I really capable of this? Can I do a good job? So I think that opened me up to feedback, because I kind of, guess, you're right, I wanted to know. That's a good point, Rather than you have imposter syndrome, then don't try and resolve it.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Hmm.

I think I tried to resolve it with feedback and ⁓ you know when you ask people for feedback about you that you're working with it does help the relationship. ⁓ It is a better thing than kind of not asking and people are gossiping about you and complaining about you potentially and then you hear something formally like do you realise your team have trouble with you and you're thinking well why didn't they tell me? It's been maybe because you didn't ask them or they didn't feel safe.

We're digressing now into many other topics because we're talking about safe. It's an old topic of psychological safety, which seems a lot of leaders are not creating because it's such a big topic, which goes back to my point about my own journey. It's been a constant learning of how to work with people better.

Hmm.

you were saying about imposter syndrome because you were so young and you had these big roles and I totally understand and

was there any friction that became a turning point for you?

You're making me go back, actually. I rarely talk about things that happened many years ago because there's so much happening more recently that I'm consumed by more current things. But after I was in Hong Kong, I'd been a finance director, I joined Adecco, a Swiss, I believe they're still the largest recruitment group in the world. They're Swiss based, but very much with a French background or Swiss-French background. So I joined in Hong Kong to set up Executive Search.

Mm.

Who would thought, hey, go finance director, not from Hong Kong myself, sit on in Hong Kong, had some time out, then join a deco. I had a French boss who in turn, a wonderful lady called Anne, who had a French boss called Terry in Singapore. I clashed with the French culture. I had great trouble because I had never worked before with corporate French culture. I'd worked in France as a student, learning French in Normandy.

But there was much more of a friendliness there and easy goingness. I was working as a plumber and I worked in a bar. But I had great trouble. And only after I left after three years, set up my own recruitment company in Hong Kong, did I realize, boy, I could have approached working for a Deco differently if I had had a little bit of a better appreciation of culture, cultural differences.

Hmm.

which now I'm quite expert at and I teach about culture. But at the time, with hindsight, I if only I'd kind of had a bit more of appreciation, a little bit more patience and calmness for the different way of communicating, thinking, operating, rather than clashing with difference. ⁓ It's unfortunate when we're young, we make mistakes.

Hmm.

because we just don't know. And hopefully you and I in our roles, whether it's creating these sort of podcasts or me coaching, we can help people shortcut. Not have to go through the learning which causes pain and upset potentially or inefficiency, but rather shortcut it by listening to a podcast, reading one of my books, being coached by me or something. So that they kind of go into a role.

It's taken me a while to kind of become the person I am now. And it's funny, the other day I said to someone, what a shame we can't go back and perform the roles of it in the past with the knowledge we have now. of course, life, we can all say that, can't we? But I do wonder as well about education and whether we could teach leadership skills, starting with self leadership at an earlier age to people to prepare them for the working world and life.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

where it's easy

to have culture clashes, personality clashes, ego clashes, different ways of viewing things clashes. And I think if we could encourage younger people, so when coming to their 20s, to be aware that that happens, that's normal, and just pause, step back, ⁓ I think we'd have a healthier world.

you

think.

Society is so much more cross-cultural now as well than they were, was it 20, 25 years ago?

think so. And we talk about it more. Even if the mix of cultures in a place or organization were the same 20 years ago, we're definitely now more attuned. Social media, the media, materials, books. ⁓

Yes, yes.

Yeah,

yeah, I think the information age has definitely helped that. thinking about some of the things you've just said, how has your definition of leadership changed over the years?

Well, I didn't have one before. Or before it was a combination of management and leadership and it was about getting things done and motivating and inspiring people. It has changed because today if you ask me what is leadership, different thoughts come to mind. But one quote that I don't know if I read or thought of, and that's honest and that's because there's so much information around, it is if you lead yourself well, others will follow. In fact, read, I didn't even read it, it was.

Yeah.

If you lead yourself well, the world will follow. Well, I'm gonna be, bring that down to earth and say, if you lead yourself well, people will follow. And I do think leadership is about self-leadership. It's about self-awareness. That if you're an extreme extrovert, a little bit narcissistic and very decisive, that's unlikely to ever change. So you can easily be too loud, too overpowering, too strong. You'd also be amazingly successful because you steamroll through and create.

success. The secret is not to say to that person, you're a bad leader, you shouldn't be narcissist or too extrovert or too decisive. It's to say be self-aware, work with that. At times turn the volume buttons down. And so I'm realizing leadership is very unique to each of us and if you have really good self-awareness with a little bit of self-management, like the introvert leader learns to speak up when they have to.

Hmm.

Hmm.

very kind, pleasing leader has learned to say no and set boundaries and set an example. And secondly, I think it's about role modelling. It's about recognising that how you make decisions if you work over weekends, if you act indecisive, if you procrastinate. Don't be surprised if people copy you or...

or it impacts them. So I think deep self-awareness and role modeling for me are the crux of leadership and I think they somehow form the definition now. Rather than saying, ⁓ let's be agile leaders, adaptive leaders. For me, they're they're skills to use appropriately based on a foundation of being very self-aware and thinking about role

you

Final comment is...

Self-awareness is about changing your style because you're aware that the team is very stressed, so maybe you push it a little bit. If you really wanted the team to speak up because there's some really challenging issues and you need to go deeper with brainstorming as the leader, be self-aware of are you creating the psychological safety to enable people to share ideas. So when I coach leaders, I really help them think about

Hmm. ⁓

how are they approaching the situations they're approaching and how successful are they being and what does it mean, what do they have to do? And often it's about learning to change their style. Because they can't change who they are, but learning to be a little more this, a little less of that ⁓ because of the context.

Yeah.

Nigel, it's interesting, because this is something I'm realizing through a lot of these conversations. Most people equate leadership with titles or big positions, but actually leadership shows up in the everyday moments where we influence someone. Like, you know, even at home, my kids, like you say, ⁓

that role modeling, if we're acting in a particular way, I can't be surprised when my kids are going to start modeling that right back at me.

Or becoming irritated with you as they get older because they're the opposite and they say, hey, you're being controlling again or you're jumping to opinions, I haven't finished speaking. So yeah, they definitely react.

⁓ yeah.

Hmm.

Only ourselves to blame actually if our children or our team evolve in a certain way. Like I had a leader the other day, no, it's actually someone working under a leader, but they're a leader under a leader who said that their boss had complained to them that they went to a big client pitch unprepared. I hadn't prepared enough because of what the potential client's going through. And the person said to me, it's really good for my boss to say this to me.

but they seem like the most unprepared person. They never seem to prepare for any client meetings or pitches. They're very superficial and sometimes they don't get away with it because we cover for them. So I feel a bit irritated that they're asking me to do something that they don't do. So you're right, the analogy with children and parents really flows with leaders and teams. And ⁓ I feel leaders have to be, and parents too, have to take more care.

Yeah.

you

because children and employees, we have so much information now that you can almost, you see on social media examples of things, or you can go and Google and say, think my boss is being too controlling. You ask that to tap DBT and for all you know it, you formed an opinion about your boss's style, which maybe 10 years ago, you wouldn't have thought of checking online.

Yeah.

Like medical right, now we have opinions going up to the doctor, which suppose doctors laugh about, but it also keeps doctors at edge, maybe keeps them on their toes because patients have knowledge. And I think leaders perhaps in the past could get away with things because they had more information, more power, like listen to me, I have the information to share, know, I know how to be, I know how to handle this. People now have their own thoughts, which comes back to the word empowering.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

is leadership really about empowering, just being there to help being the best in people.

that's interesting. think years ago we had feeling that thought but we couldn't articulate it, which chat GPT is great at doing for us now.

Very true actually. In fact, I often sometimes when I'm coaching people I say, maybe you ask one of your apps you're using Gemini or Jack GPT or another one, ask them, play with how you might respond because you're telling me you're lost for words. I've maybe encouraged you to think, is it the time to speak up? Or the coachings enable you to think, Nigel, I now feel, yeah, it's time for me to speak up. And then then go to an app to play around with what actual words might they use.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

interesting. Nigel, how do you help people see themselves as leaders before they're even given a title?

It's interesting, in one global organization, I'm one of the trainers for a, it's like a team leader, an informal supervisor's training. And there are often 20 to 30 people there for over a few days. And not all of them know they want to be leaders. They're being pushed in that direction because of their roles. And I find it's very individual.

It involves having a conversation and saying where do you imagine yourself? Do you imagine yourself being more formal leader? growing and and often there's a combination of confidence and readiness and ego and ambition and they're really really wanting it or They're doubting themselves. They're unsure. They're not sure they want the pressure Then I like to say in both cases What do you really want and and?

Do you think you're ready or do think there's things you have to work on?

It's very hard to be generic actually. I find that this is the power of one-on-one coaching conversations is to enable one person to think, well, where am I now? I'm kind of being pushed to be a leader. ⁓ I'm given my first project to be in charge of. Am I comfortable? Am I actually leading? Am I consciously leading? What does it mean? And so... ⁓

Quite an interesting journey and I had somebody the other day say Nigel, I've been kind of in leadership roles for years without any training. My job titles don't sound very senior. So I said to them, well, talk to me about leadership then. And they described their leadership, their style, what they feel their impact is. It sounded like someone who'd been through numerous training, who'd been well mentored, but apparently they hadn't.

So it's interesting if you actually just gain experiences of even informal leadership and you're a little bit conscious and a little bit trying to improve yourself and become quite a competent leader. There's always this assumption of, you need to read books, go on training, be Well, I found an example the other day where the person really genuinely said, Nigel, I haven't, you I don't read very much. I've never been on leadership training, management training, because my company never really offered that for 10 years.

and it turned out quite well. It's like children, right, who say, oh, I went through a terrible childhood without resources or support and it turned out well. So leadership's interesting one. I wonder if it's in the human psyche that if you are thrust into a leadership position, that a lot of the time you can take it on and if you've been brought up well with some nice character qualities, you can lead quite well.

you

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I really appreciate your question, because we really think about self-awareness, role modeling, know, lead yourself well, others will follow. Nice ways of looking at leadership, and you also rightly talked about leadership without job titles and things, because I think we sometimes forget that we're all kind of leading, we're all leading conversations, leading decisions, leading, but not maybe having titles. It makes me realize

Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

that this is all fine talking about this in a stable world because one can evolve and grow. But this year, I'm seeing this tumultuous disruption and change in the world, whether it's geopolitics affecting business and trade with tariffs constantly changing, AI and technology, it seems to be evolving faster than we can even comprehend and deal with. And we're just watching the AI world explode with

Mm.

Capital coming in and AI firms growing and we've got Businesses where increasingly clients are more cost-conscious. There's more competition For all these reasons I'm seeing How we thought we could be successful as leaders Maybe isn't quite enough now This idea that as the world becomes more digital

Hmm.

Yeah.

Leadership has to become more human and I thought more digital, more human leadership. I kind of thought was just a quirky quote when I first heard it last year. But I realize now as we talk towards the end of 2025, boy that's true. And it's become an angle of a recent talk and some work I've been doing. Well, what are the qualities that...

leaders have to have to be more human in a world where people can easily feel separated because we're often not together anymore, we're online, or they can feel overwhelmed and not grounded.

right. In our pre-call, you mentioned how different leadership feels today, like there's more distress, more noise, more conflict, more uncertainty and

I guess my question to you is What do you think meaningful leadership looks like

Okay.

I've been thinking about this and doing bit of research for the last couple of books, kind of maybe going look at some models and theories behind it. And my recent coaching, I've been aware of this and I arrived at the following, a realization of there seems to be three broad qualities that leaders really need to give more attention to. One is being

more grounded, being more connected. And the third one is being more purposeful. When I mean grounded, mean pausing, slowing down, giving more space, we've been curious and learning. Stepping back from thinking, we have to have the answer now, we have to do this, we have to implement this. Stepping back and thinking what's going on and maybe being more inquisitive with the team. Because I feel now, since COVID, compared to pre-COVID, if that's a useful reference point,

I feel now we in the business world and in government, all kinds of companies, we're less sure whether it's staff at different levels, leaders at different levels, things are less clear. So if things are less clear, what do do? Slow down, be more open, be more curious. So that's kind of how I framed grounding. And I also...

realised being more connected is equally important because I'm seeing the impact of so many of us, say in white collar professional roles, working from home most of the week. I know there's some pressure to come back to the office, but working from home and even when we're back in the office I'm realising organisations are having hot desking, you aren't having the established place with the colleagues you're actually working with near you. So even back in the office isn't quite the same as it used to be. So...

We're missing out, I think, a lot of connection, a lot of human connection, a lot of side talk between meetings, going to the elevator, by the coffee machine, having a lunch together. So you could kind of offload and share concerns about what you heard in the meeting, about what's being demanded by a boss or a client. We're missing those side conversations and the connection, which is why I'm really feeling being connected is the second important quality after being grounded.

Let me just finish the third one, then I'm sure you've got some questions and thoughts. The third is being purposeful. So this idea of...

I don't think we lack ⁓ ability and willingness. People in the workforce today, we all want to be successful, but I think the issue is we're overwhelmed. We're overwhelmed by possibility, by challenge. What do we do with AI? How do we cope in this situation? ⁓ More competition, more online competition to our business. We're overwhelmed and we're busy. And I feel we're so busy, we haven't got time to pause or time in our heads to think.

about meaning, about well, why are doing what we're doing? What's the purpose? And as humans, when we begin to do things without meaning and purpose, are we not aware of the meaning and purpose? It's easy for tasks and work to become a drag, draining, demotivating, boring, repetitive. So I feel there's a need for leaders to sort of pause and have them say, remind people, why are we doing what we're doing?

What's our aim of going to this new market? Why are we getting stressed by this new system? Let me remind you of the aim of the new system. It's going to make us more efficient or faster. Our bonuses will be bigger, hopefully, because we'll have more profits. And so I think going back to purpose is super important. So being more grounded, being more connected, and being more purposeful, I think are three nice buckets to help leaders think about how they can be more human.

Thank

in today's very digital world. ⁓ Where leaders themselves also need to be led well. So, because leaders can feel, particularly the senior ones, can feel like no one to speak to. They've only got maybe a CEO above them or a board above them. And so leaders also need to give themselves some time as well to think about how can they be better connected? How can they find purpose? How can they be grounded? Not just a role model, but for them to feel better.

and perform better, and then they can literally help their teams be more connected and purposeful and grounded. So I think there is a need to be more human as we run together to implement AI in so many parts of our business models these days and feel this pressure we've got to. I think we as humans and the human core just have to somehow keep up. Almost give people time out, time to pause.

Time for people to say, I'm really not sure now. I'm worried about my job. I'm not sure how things are evolving. So kudos to leaders who are naturally calm, curious, inquisitive, empathic, and like to talk about values and meaning. And the leaders that are more task-driven, they've got more work to do maybe to tap into those qualities I mentioned that maybe they aren't used to living.

Mm-hmm.

that they might have seen before as little bit wooly. I'm sorry, but they're actually really born qualities. You're in a position of influence over other people's lives and work.

Yeah.

Hmm.

So from what you're saying, it's clear that leaders today carry different pressures than they used to. And you may have already touched on some of this, but...

What do you see leaders struggling with the most?

One broad answer I touched upon, overwhelmed. So whether it's just them personally managing, and I guess linked to this bucket of overwhelming stress. So there's leaders, not just leaders, but leaders that I'm working with, so many of them are overwhelmed. That's one bucket. Another bucket is just managing change. We all talk about managing change, right?

Mm.

It's constant in human history, right? It's constant in the business world. Well, it's particularly dramatic in the last few years, even since COVID or because of COVID and technology and the way world politics has changed. The number of uncertainties, not even changes that you see coming and they're logical and all, but just the randomness. I'll stop at those two, Saddaf.

Hmm.

They stand out in my mind and my experiences of overwhelmed stress, getting everything done, and then managing change and certainty. They're obviously very connected.

What qualities do you think people are craving in leaders then?

understanding, whether that's empathy, appreciation, ⁓ positive words. ⁓ And we shouldn't make a mistake if we are in our 40s and 50s and thinking, younger people, they're just wanting pats on the back for doing nothing. I think that's really poor thinking. I think humans seek appreciation and meaning.

And I think younger people are voicing that more than maybe, dare I say, my generation did when I was in my 20s. Because I didn't have any way of thinking that way. So I think an understanding, while being demanding as a leader, while setting difficult KPIs and goals, while pushing people, but show your understanding the person, the challenge they're facing, the resources they have, what they're trying to do, understanding what they're doing well.

give feedback what they're not doing well. ⁓ So definitely, definitely leaders who are too quiet and don't share can be an issue. When I say understanding, I don't mean micromanaging. I don't mean the leader has to step in, but just show understanding. ⁓

And I'll finish on, I know what they're doing, but that's too broad a conversation because it links to vision and direction and having the right resources. But I think it's almost, sounds obvious when you say it, but you want to work with someone who knows what they're doing. Where are we going? Why are what are we doing? Are we, we selling to the right clients? Do we have, are you fighting for the right resources in the budgets? ⁓ do you, have you put the right system in place? Because I think particularly today's younger workforce.

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

far more open to criticizing and having an awareness of what is and isn't going right.

agree. think that vision direction piece of the puzzle is really important and your team needs to feel that you know what you're doing at the helm and you know where you're trying to get to. Because I think sometimes when you don't have that communication from the top down and you're only seeing things, it's really easy to...

to come to your own conclusion. It's like kids, right? They don't necessarily understand all the words that are being spoken, you know, when they're young, but they put it together with the context and come up with something that may or may not be true.

I that's a very good, I resonate, I agree with you on what you're saying actually and it links to this being more purposeful. And it comes back to, I don't think as the leader you can be happy or successful if you don't like what you're doing or where you're going. That you're asked to run a business or a team within a larger business and you don't particularly like the strategy or the direction of travel or the culture.

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

I would almost urge you not to be a leader there because how can people work under you if you're not positive and clear on say the direction or how we work or who we work with or what we're doing. I think in the past maybe you could get away with it because maybe people were...

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

you didn't question, you went to work and maybe didn't have the awareness we have now, like the spatial awareness. People come to work now and they can have thoughts and opinions and observations on so much. So I think leaders have to tap into all those qualities, but it has to start with them being comfortable in their roles. And I coach leaders and I can tell very quickly if they're not comfortable, I can help them digest and process that and work out is it a short term stress or is it a fundamental situation of they're probably in the wrong place.

Hmm. Yeah.

And that's probably not a good thing for people under them or around them, unless they can bluff.

Having a healthy leader at the helm It's so important for the success of the business.

going back to some of the three things you talked about, grounded, connected, purposeful. What do you think helps leaders fill all three of those buckets when the world feels turbulent?

few words I could answer that but one thought that comes to me that I haven't covered yet is in terms of maybe purely grounded is that pausing time out it's just take time for yourself for self-care so almost like take your car for service go to the gym go for a swim go for a walk meditate sleep well read a book turn off your devices ⁓

Mm-hmm.

at 8pm, not leaving on to 11pm and reading emails in bed or working all weekend. So think self-care, slowing down, kind of create like a personal grounding. And I think time out is so important. I think there's an assumption of now we've got to be very busy, all hands on deck. I've been working with some manufacturing companies who are really hit by the global tariffs.

Yeah.

this year changing, really impacting business and what can be done and all hands on deck and I know another group coaching someone and they got cyber hacked and they were like working all hours, all days of the week for a period of time. So yeah, there's sometimes when you feel you've got to work long hours, but I think taking holidays, I think stepping away because I think, I think we could...

technology as well, work can become addictive and the danger is leaders can be a bit on autopilot, easily triggered, emotionally and stressfully because they're constantly being pulled to meetings through the weekend, looking at emails and thinking then the following Monday they're back into it. So I think if the leader says to me proudly, I never take my holidays, I would challenge them on that. Because in the old days, was before COVID, this was common. Leaders would proudly say, I've got 150 days of holidays untaken.

But you know, I work hard. I think now that's a big mistake. It's also role modeling in a bad think it's not healthy for your own ability to be creative, intuitive, inspirational, be a lighter, have less, have more space metaphorically ⁓ in your head or heart, ⁓ rather than like constantly running.

Hmm.

Yeah.

in what is an increasingly unclear world. ⁓ I didn't mention earlier, Vukka, the world is more volatile and certain, complex and ambiguous than there's other terms like Vukka to describe the world today. And you might argue it's always been. I think it's more so, but we're more aware. See, maybe in the past, you went through incredible Vukka during the industrial revolution or the empires and wars, but you kind of maybe took it in your stride and lived each day, didn't have technology to record the past and the future, so clearly.

Yeah.

Didn't know it.

But now we're so aware, we feel the uncertainty more, we feel the volatility and complexity more. And leaders, because we are corralling people, we're guiding so many people, whether it's five or a hundred or a hundred thousand people, we have a real obligation to do it in a very mature way, which is why this idea of being grounded, connected and purposeful is a nice way of framing it. There's many words you could use.

rather than the running, constant, aggression, ambition, do, do. There's always that around, but if that becomes your main way of operating, I'd say they and their team are probably doomed for failure or doomed for burnout or demotivation.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not sustainable.

Yeah.

So Nigel, you've written a hundred things successful leaders do, and I imagine you didn't choose those things randomly. out of everything you've learned, what's one principle that consistently separates healthy leaders from the ones who struggle?

Thank you for that question. Let me give you a bit of context to the book. So the book you're referring to is this one. ⁓ 100 things successful leaders do. And it's interesting because it says little lessons in leadership. I think you can sense what the book's content is about. It's about the little things, not the big, you know, are you being strategic, but the little things leaders are doing and not doing well. But it builds on, and this is important for context, my earlier book.

100 things successful people do. Because at the of the day, leaders are people. Coming back to leaders and the 100 things, there isn't just one answer, there's a couple I can give as core, they're almost like themes in the book, but they also come out as individual chapters, is it links to self-awareness, is...

knowing why you want to be leader and knowing how you're leading. So there's a knowing, there's a knowing side to it because you know so often it's not technically hard to delegate well. It's not that hard to think about how to be inspiring. You can read a book, people can advise you and you can kind of find a few words to be inspiring. It's not hard to ⁓ try and motivate people. So the doing isn't that hard.

But if you don't have the knowing right, the doing can become artificial, can feel false, can feel forced. So the knowing of what am I like as a person, as a leader? What are my strengths and weaknesses? Am I happy to lead? So knowing, are you happy to lead? Why do you want to lead? And knowing yourself, so knowing your baseline, like am I a naturally selfish person and therefore try, you gotta try a lot harder, because some people are, gotta try a lot harder to motivate and inspire and give credit and give support to others. But you can do it.

But only do it well because you know where you're coming from. ⁓ Am I too kind as a person? And therefore as a leader, I've got to learn sometimes to control myself and I've got to practice being firm and strong and giving difficult feedback and setting boundaries, which may be very hard for you. But if you know where you're coming from, then you put in the extra effort. ⁓ Am I a driven perfectionist as a person? Is that how I've been since school? And that's...

and you become a leader now in your 20s, 30s or 40s. And is that driving you to micromanage, to be relentless, to constantly criticize people, forgetting to get positive feedback because in your brain, you're conditioned to be relentless and a perfectionist and a hard worker. Know that, and you get a little bit of guidance from a book or a coach or a training or a boss or a mentor, you can learn then to sort of step away from that style to...

be a bit more understanding, a little bit more empowering, ⁓ giving people the space and the time they need, rather than almost mirroring yourself on them.

Now, can I add one thought many leaders...

making money, are being successful, they're running whatever it might be, electronic semiconductor groups, retail groups, retail chains, hotel groups. I'm not thinking of anyone in particular, I'm just randomly thinking of industries who are probably not nice leaders. We hear stories, I've experienced them, I've tried coaching them, helping them, we see them in the media. They're ruthless, they're horrible, they lie, there's integrity issues and yet they stay in their positions sometimes because they own or co-own the business.

Hmm.

Yeah.

But they're almost getting away with poor leaders.

think you get

away with being poor leaders as you said, but you also get away with damaging people in the process, a lot of people in the process.

and it saddens me when someone doesn't seem to care about the negative impact they have on other people. And luckily many of today's multinationals and large well-known companies have systems in place for not allowing that to continue. It does happen still, and it can seem to go on for long time.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

When I work with teams, I encourage them to have the courage and confidence to speak up about what's working well and not well in terms of how they've been managed. And I love organizations that, for example, give teams anonymous surveys, say on psychological safety or just general anonymous feedback surveys and employee engagement surveys. And I really admire the organizations that try and work on that information. Even if it involves some very uncomfortable conversations between...

Yeah. Yeah.

leaders, say HR directors and big bosses talking to some of the leaders beneath them or by them, ⁓ how maybe they need to improve.

Nigel, thank you so much for this conversation. I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to you and hearing the stories behind your leadership and your work.

It's been a pleasure, Sadaf I'm really happy to have shared so many aspects of leadership from my experiences and I'm looking forward to ⁓ staying in contact and I'm looking forward to people watching this podcast and perhaps leaving comments or even reaching out to me through LinkedIn. All my LinkedIn learning courses are reading my books. I'm also becoming a speaker as well quite actively. So I look forward to people saying, hey Nigel, I saw your podcast and I learned XYZ from it. Thank you, Zedaph.

You're very welcome. And to those listening in, thank you for Zedaph. here. The Nigel has just mentioned are in the show notes for you. So please do reach out to him and connect with him and pick up his books too. The best growth often starts with a meaningful conversation. Thank you for being part of this one. And I'll see you in the next episode. Bye for now.