This episode is the first of our two episodes where young women, globally, are sharing their views on how they think about leadership. Olivia Grobocopatel, Temilade Salami, Enaya Noor Mian, Karimot Odebode and Meenakshi Arundhati Banerjee are some of our fantastic young women to be interviewed.

Enaya Noor Mian says its “very very hard”, Olivia Grobocopatel that its “about being clear and optimistic, even in a complex and frightening world”, Temilade Salami joyfully urges us to “just get on with it, because we don’t seek validation any more”, Sara Khan asks how to “balance empathy with getting the job done”, Karimot Odebode calls for “sisterhood” and Meenaksi Arundhati Banerjee unpicks the intricacies and complexities of “privilege”.

Different views held by different women across the Global South. Meena urges Women Emerging to ‘normalise’ leadership. Noor says “no don’t do that, it is something to aspire to and take pride in. But EMPATHY and PRIVILEGE are words used commonly by all.

Julia Middleton 0:01

The experience was extraordinary, lots of different things came out, very strong sense that this is a different generation. And that if if the approach to leadership is going to resonate with women, it's got to work really, really hard. And in fact, nevermind resonating, if it's not going to be rejected by young women, it has to really, really recognise that it is a different generation. And then the second thing I think that was a strong message on was that young people feel the urgency, passionately. Climate change, but many other issues and know full well that it will still be a while before they can get their hands on these issues. So therefore, they have to work with women of previous generations much more effectively than they have than generations have in the past of women. So therefore, it's absolutely not that young women are rejecting working with older leaders who are women; it's that they want to work really effectively together.

So we spoke to young women in India and Argentina, in Pakistan, in Nigeria, and in Sierra Leone. Next week, more women, more young women voices. But it did seem right that this first episode of the new year should be from young women talking about how leadership is going to be different. Because it's going to be the generation doing it. And and we're going to start with Olivia, in Argentina, simply talking through her thinking about leadership.

Olivia 3:31

The first for me is the leader needs to have a lot of energy, it needs to be a leader that it's motivated. And that creates magic by leading, by being happy with their job and by being enthusiastic about what they are doing. Because this is something that is transmittable to the people around, you need to be someone that is positive, optimistic, and that believes in what you're doing. Or that at least can hide it enough that people have this feeling that it's magic that we are creating together. So this is for me very important. Another thing is to be conscious and generous to provide the opportunities for people to to unlock reflection of what they want to do. So I don't know if I'm clear, but basically allowing people to do things that are not in their job descriptions, and to have ideas to lead them not to block the ideas. Because sometimes I think maybe this is the comparison with the previous generation. We try to see a job through a job description that has things written on it and both the employer uses it to understand the expectations but also the employee uses it as a defence mechanism. And I think this is something that should be redefined because people... Now I think my generation changes job to find a way to break down that job description, whereas we could do it in our current jobs if that job description was more open, or if we can 1/3 of the time where we could be exploring new ideas of how to improve our own job, or we are seeing that we are doing something that our colleague is might be doing at the same time or differently. And then maybe we can merge what we are doing and create something new and innovative.

Julia Middleton 5:35

Yours is a generation thats instinct is to share, isn't it?

Olivia 5:41

Well, it is yes. Because before I think we could find a power was measured on how much information we had that other people did not have. And now it's more about how can we foster other people's knowledge together. So it's all about sharing, everything is about sharing, how can my idea be improved if I do not share it with someone else, or put it into practice. So I think the definition of being a leader is working, the necessarily aspect of being a leader is working with others, everything is about sharing, more and more. I think there's also maybe this has already been said and it's not changing too much is to, to provide a sense of purpose and security for the team as a whole. Not in the sense that the leader knows everything, because the world is complex and more and more so. But in the way that we are okay with the unknown, and then we can adapt. And then we are providing this safe space where people can can survive that complex world and the unknown and changing things. And this is something that is more difficult to understand. If you're from a previous generation, I think, because basically you're saying you need to look like you're very sure of yourself, and you know where we're going, but at the same time that you are okay with not knowing it and adapting and changing. You often

Julia Middleton 7:17

Describe this world world leading into me as violent, Olivia, is that really the right word?

Olivia 7:25

Yes, well, it is because I think part of human nature is to find comfort in what we know. And I think that the things that we are experiencing now are changes that impact many different aspects of our life, all of a sudden, and that's why they are violent, because they they really have a big impact on how we live.

Julia Middleton 7:51

Where do you think people will begin to put their trust?

Olivia 7:56

Well, collaborative platforms, for example, places where we know that you have a lot of people and that are sharing information. And that then you have someone that a big mind or a controller, I'm optimistic that we are going to have find a way of our time and our way, with our Yes, with the technology that we need to find that trust again.

Julia Middleton 8:27

Thank you, Olivia. That's a great list. A really great list of the differences. And similarities to it has to be said. Lots of differences, though. Now, let's move on away from Argentina, and towards Sierra Leone, where Temi is going to talk through about how she too, would want to be different and how her priorities in terms of leadership would be very different.

Temi 9:00

It will be opening doors for more people to come in, you know, because that's one thing that I really did not kind of see with the older generation. I do not want to generalise because I've been a great receiver of you know, mentorship and guidance, but that's not the reality with so many people who are probably not outspoken or don't know how to network or keep relationships. Right. So for me, it will be that beyond the sense of urgency is to keep the door open, you know, share opportunities, bring other people on board because the work is not for one person the work is not for two persons. So the more the merrier, like I always say so is to I always say keep the door open. That's one of the things I think we we should do differently in our generation what we should be doing differently. Leadership is always project To the future, you know, we see it as something that we have to attain. Meanwhile, you know, leadership is simply making a change where you are, what you're doing in your space in your office in your organisation. As little as it can be the moment you take an initiative to solve a problem, you are already a leader. So I think there is irritation in this generation where people just wake up and they're like, you know, what, like, I don't like what is going on in my community, and I'm going to change it. I don't need anybody to give me a leadership title. But I'm just going to get this done. And I think that there has been a shift from that. You know, and it's really awesome to see, you know, the the number of young people who are leading change across the continent across the world, and no one is really waiting for anybody to say, You know what, I'm going to make a leader, and then you can go make a change, reverse is actually the case at the moment.

So you just do not need permission.

exactly.

What else will be different.

We see our relationship with men differently. I don't see myself as a lesser person, because I'm a woman, I don't see myself as inferior to anyone because I'm a woman. When I'm out there, I'm on top of my game, regardless of who is in the room. And I think that dynamics has changed the laws, talk about the climate change space, although generally, like for events, you probably see men at the, at the front of the pictures, 90 men and just two women on the leadership team of the whole conference. But back at home in the communities, I can list. Before I mentioned, three men are probably listed seven great young women, leading change in their community, and is an amazing, you know, because even growing up, there was just this perception that these are the jobs for the men, these are the things men are supposed to do. As women, you're just supposed to be laid back. And you just listen to whatever anybody tells you because you end up getting married. And that is it's you know, all your life depends in the kitchen. But now things are changing. You know, I shared, I shared a video recently of my journey from studying Dentistry and Dental Surgery to becoming an environmentalist, and how rough that has been for the I mean, for eight years. And the video actually, like really went viral, I was really surprised. And I saw a comment and person said, you know, it's very hard for ambitious women like you to, to find a man and I'm like, I'm not, I'm not looking for validation, you know, for me to have done this for eight years, trust me, and believe me, I'm going to do it. And I will continually do it without needing anybody to validate who I am or what I'm doing. So the tides are changing. And it's really beautiful to see that.

Thank you, Temi, for sharing your joy in the change. And, and your clarity that you do not need the validation of men. Sarah picks up this theme, but actually it's not about men, it's about successful established female leaders who can be obstacles to I say this with sadness. She describes working for one leader, a remarkable woman who led a trial trafficking organisation that Sarah used to be part of.

There wasn't a lot of collaboration in terms of how we want to see the organisation forward, what kind of programmes do we want, will the programmes work for the employees who are actually implementing them on the ground. So we were given a project and we were told this is what we need to do. Instead of talking about the larger goal of the organisation or the mission of the organisation, which is very important from time to time, these organisations are sometimes 2025 years old, and they've been working the same way. So there's never been a change of kind of the way they work based on the new generation of leaders. So for me, the biggest thing I see in the leaders I've worked with, or the bosses I've worked with, that has a fear of trying new things. I wouldn't say new programmes or project but maybe a way of doing things. And there's also this fear of failure in terms of if you want to try something new or if you want to do something new. There's a lot of opposition. And the other thing I've noticed specifically for women leaders is these leaders are strong, right? They've worked 20 years in the field just come up from the ground level. They have worked with trafficking survivors, they've worked with the communities so they have seen a lot of hardship and They've conquered kind of their own battles as well. I think the space that they got, they don't extend that space to us sometimes. We also look up to these leaders for a reason. So to work under them is a great privilege. But I wish there was just more space for collaboration, more space for failures, more space for innovation. And I think that's something that may be missing for a lot of people in my generation.

When you're the leader, how will you do it differently?

I struggle being a leader and kind of the team leader, because I try to be collaborative and not be kind of a leader who is top down and give instructions. But that also sometimes comes with challenges. Because when you're too collaborative, when there's a lot of conversation happening, sometimes the points may be missed out. So I get that collaboration is important. But I also think it's important to be a leader where there is some kind of not instruction, but some kind of structure that you're given. So if I see myself as a leader in the coming two years, I would definitely still have a lot of space for discussion and collaboration. But I also think it's important for the leader to be very clear about what she is envisioning, and how others can kind of contribute to that vision in their own way.

Thank you, Sarah. So it's not always easy working for a successful and inspiring women leaders either. Noor describes this struggle of young women leaders, this struggle to be the empathetic generation that they want to be empathy being something that they that they don't feel is very widespread in previous generations, they want to be really empathetic, but somehow also in their leadership to find the right balance with getting the job done.

I have along with another one of my friends. So we do lead this sort of initiative that we started a year ago. And it's a mental health initiative for young children.

And what have you learned about leadership in that experience?

It's very difficult, it is very difficult because I was leading batches of interns in the summer, and just just getting up and going to the office every day, and having to, you know, give our jobs and responsibilities and roles to each of them, and having to come up with ideas that they needed to work on. It was it was extremely difficult.

What did you find most difficult?

I'm not very good at telling people what to do. That's always been very difficult for me, because I'm always the one who's like, being told what to do. And so for me to have to like, you know, be the reason be the boss, be the leader and tell someone that Oh, no, you need to do this. And especially when they haven't done their work correctly. That was extremely difficult for me to tell them because I again, I didn't want to discourage anyone, I didn't want to let anyone down. But then at the same time, the work wasn't being done correctly. And I just, I found it extremely hard to communicate to them because my, again, I had this need to like be kind to them. But then also at the same time, like I didn't know how else to say that all the work hasn't been done.

As I spoke to Noor, who at 16 is the youngest leader I spoke to it, it did keep on bringing to my head what prepares you for leadership, when you are a very young woman, what prepares you particularly when we all know that so many young women are going to be catapulted into leadership positions in the next few years as as they as they engage in slight climate change issues and projects. It does make you think.

Karimot is next. And Karimot's in Nigeria and she, she actually, interestingly, came back to express in a slightly different way, but very much the same frustrations that Sarah felt about women leaders. Sarah being in India and Karimot being in Nigeria and really demanding big change.

They are of the opinion that you know, just You have to pass through what I pass you. So yeah, find your way your head yourself, which is not supposed to be. So I think that we needed a huge cultural shift. So that when we have the big sister mentality of our pin of bringing somebody up, you know, that's, that's a great one because big sisters are supposed to look after the younger siblings, they are there they are very much protected Big Sisters, like a mother and they tend to protect their young younger siblings from from from from any kind of issues. So yeah, if every young woman how they can have this big sister mentality that the next girl have their was ready to do the walk is their sister. I mean, it's gonna get better.

Just to say that you should have seen, you should see Karimot smile, as she said this about sisterhood. But she then added a caveat.

But when we come to a particular situation, when big sisters are jealous of the ones behind them, that I don't I do not think they do not have the right to be called Big Sisters. We are now more like a stranger actually. So normally a big sister, I suppose to care for the ones behind her.

I asked her about how her generation of sisters would lead differently.

So I think that it shifts that my generation wants to see in leadership, it's human centric leadership, a leadership that is that centres humanity. What does that mean? So everything revolves around kindness and empathy. So when we tend to centre humanity, in our approach with people, that means we treat people as humans, we understand that human have right. You know, you see people in an AI positions and the the people that drives them, they clean their houses, they are works, they are like slaves to them. They do not respect them, they do not treat them like human. And I think that is very wrong. This people are also providing a service to them, even though they might be low income earners. But they're human first, they're human beings. First, we that was the kind of thing that we all in high esteem, it kind of leadership, that do not talk on people, and leadership, no matter the class that you come from your economy class, or your social background. You treat people as human first, you do not care if they have one Naira in their account, or they have 1 million naira in their account. We are all humans, and we should be treated with respect.

And you believe that your generation wants to see this change?

Yes, I actually believe that my generation wants to see that change. We want to see more people that are kind to each other. It's gonna be a big transition. And then the thing about, you know, treating people with dignity is that the generation come in behind us, I mean, the children, children tend to learn by your actions and not your words. You know, take for example, in a particular household, where the father or the mother, um, shout or speak you to the domestic servants that works for them. The children are learning by their action, they automatically think that it is right for them, to speak at people to shut up people that are now in the economy class that are knowing their social status. So yes, I think that if you treat people with dignity, we are building a more responsible society. You have a society that see people as people, and not just as someone like furniture that you can't afford.

Thank you very much. This, this theme led me to Meena in India. I wanted to talk to her about the word privilege, a word that is strong and often used in her generation. It's a lead word, a complex word, a difficult word, and one that I was pretty confident meno will have thought through quite carefully.

So I think the word privilege is something that's like one of those. It's a part of our vocabulary. Now, I think if you really care about anything, then it's a part of your vocabulary. The way I use it, is sort of challenging the status quo. So, in India, specifically, we can talk about that in terms of the first thing that comes to mind is caste and religion, the language that you speak, which region you're from, and then of course, your gender, and your, your sexual orientation. And these, like, various boxes, I think, if I look at it objectively, for myself or my mother, then I will, of course, understand that as a woman in India, I lack a lot of privilege. But when I immediately look at that, in terms of my caste and class position, and the religion that I am given intensive circumference, which is Hindu, and I'm upper caste, and it's my I can, even though my mother tongue is Telugu, I still speak English is my first language, it's the language I think, and I've grown up in urban settings, I have a university education, I'm not a first generation, college graduate or high school graduate. So in terms of all of these boxes, then I am someone with a lot of privilege in this country. And I'm also someone with privilege simply because I have security within the home, I think, as soon as I step out, the thing that hits me in the face, I'm a woman. And when the sun goes down, it's that I'm a woman. And so I think I struggle with this a lot.

Is the word privilege for your generation, especially if you feel that you have got some privilege, easy to source of guilt, or embarrassment.

I think it is. And I think when that guilt creeps in, it's also like, you want to learn how to be a good ally to whatever the cause is. But I think when you're someone in the cause, but you're someone who occupies a space that has more privilege, then that sort of becomes difficult to negotiate, because it's not like, I'm a white woman, and I'm trying to be an ally to the black cause. But I'm a woman, and I'm trying to, especially I think my generation is more interested in intersectionality as a whole, we're not necessarily like a group that's like, okay, there's this one cause, and let's just have like, five issues, and like, bang, bang, bang, these are the five issues, and we're gonna push these and we'll think about the rest later. I think like, there are many, many groups of people who have many individual issues that are at the personal level that people want to sort of solve. And so some, I think, older feminists often think that we're very scattered, because we don't have like one cause to go behind. But then I also think that, in some sense, there is nuance there at that level. But when we're thinking about the label itself, there isn't because I don't know how to navigate my identity, I guess, as a woman, with this idea of privilege, because there are many moments where I know that I have gotten out of a sticky situation, because I'm Hindu, or, because I come from a good family. All there are other moments when I'm just reminded that, you know, at the end of the day, I'm a woman, and something bad is gonna happen to me if I'm not careful. And so that internal, I think that gets to me, especially is there when it comes to my cast. Because I don't identify with a lot of the like, we pass off cast, I upper caste people often pass off a lot of cast is thing, there's things that are part of our culture. And those are things that do not resonate with me at all. And they make me very uncomfortable and the things that I'm completely against, but because even if I'm against it, it's still a social capital that I hold, in some sense, like, like, no matter what happens, like, that sort of thing will allow me entrance into spaces, even if I am someone who's rejecting and completely, and it's in my name. It's in the neighbourhood that I live, you know, like, I think, I think when it comes to cost, that's something that makes me deeply uncomfortable. And I I don't think that just sitting with the guilt is enough. And I don't think just I don't think just being guilty about your privilege is necessarily helpful. I think it's the first step. It's like recognising that you have privilege that guilt comes with that recognition. I think, like if you're an empathetic person, and then, but like, I feel like that I feel like in many instances, we're stuck at that like self flagellation, almost. And it's not helpful. Like, we sort of need to think of what are the ways in which, okay, I have this privilege, I have this access, is there, no one else here? Who is going to speak up about this. So maybe I'm going to be that person who signs the door and opens it. But the minute I noticed that there is someone else who doesn't have that social capital, I don't walk in first, I like that person walking first. And I think like, that's sort of like, the way I'm trying to frame it for myself, that you also need to help people, not just by being like, Oh, I am this benevolent person. So I'm gonna help you. But you can also think that, oh, I have all this privilege. So I can't do anything. I think that's also you sort of like resigning yourself from the discomfort of the issue itself. Like the idea of privilege comes with great amount of discomfort. And that guilt is a part of it. But I think, especially on social media, at least I feel like we're stopping largely at that aspect of guilt. Rather than really understanding that there is guilt, why is there that guilt? And how do we be deconstructed and dismantle it? And while it's not to say that, like, we can't also think of move, like, I can't think of the feminist movement in India without me, because I carry that much privilege, trying to think about, like, if like, as a person participating in it, how am I more a more mindful participant, which I think a lot of people are trying to do. And I don't think I'm the first person trying to do that.

Thank you Meena. I was sure that you would have begun the untangling around that word privilege. Thank you for, for sharing your work in progress thinking, which, which I suspect we all feel conflicted, confused, struggling with. But I then wanted to ask Meena about the very word leadership itself. You know, we set out to say, how do we make sure that the approach to leadership resonates with women, and especially young women, but I suppose the question is, is the word leadership itself a problem, or even the problem?

Okay, so I think this term leadership is intimidating, because we're not allowed to think about it. In some sense. I have always taken leadership positions, but it's never been labelled as a leadership position. So I don't think that women aren't in leadership positions, I think they take on the role of the leader. And often the work of a leader entails grunt work. And there's a lot of administrative work that's not glamorous and deals dealing with messy situations, and you know, untangling the mess. And there is a lot of emotional and mental labour that goes into it. But it's the, it's the shiny part of leadership that is not identified with, you know, in some sense, like, basically, you do all of the messy work, that is a part of the being a leader, but very rarely are you given the opportunity to wear the shiny shoes. And so I think that women are playing the role of the leader without knowing that they're doing it, or without people identifying that this is a leadership job that they're doing. But the term leadership doesn't seem appealing, because the stakes are so high. Like you don't, the stakes are anyway high when you're a leader, because you have to take responsibility if things you know, burn to the ground. But because you're the exception in that situation, as a leader, then all your time is really like kind of goes into managing things and making sure that they don't burn to the ground when your job is like a lot more than that, like you're not a maintenance person. You're someone who's charting Uncharted, like you're, like go into uncharted territory with a group of people, but women can't afford to fail. And I think that's the thing that like, at least personally holds me back and I know holds a lot of my friends back is that we don't have that much like room to fail. And when we think of women leaders, you have either always like these trailblazers, exceptional women, there is no space for being normal. And like just being a person who is also a leader in some sense I think that's the most discouraging thing to young women.

Listening to meaningless words and the use of the word normal, it started me to think whether normalising leadership for women might be brief. And I was going down this route, till I spoke to Noor, who puts me firmly back on track. I asked her straight out, should we be normalising leadership?

But not really, because I think, I think one I think be a being a leader or leadership is something you need to be proud of. And because I think it's it is, it is an honour, it is an achievement, you know, you've accomplished something, and you've become a leader of something. And I think that is a big thing. And so to kind of not make it to kind of tone it down and make it seem like it's not that big of a deal. I think it would take away from what you feel that you've achieved and sort of honouring the private, you would have carrying that title.

Pride in leadership. Thank you. No. I think actually, let's just go back to Temi for the last last last word.

So I think it's a good progress, although there's so much more to do with the previous generation. But I think this new generation, actually, were challenging the status quo. And, you know, it's beautiful to see.

Thank you to the young women who have helped put this episode together they have in common, that they're all leading in remarkable ways. And I'm very, very grateful for their time to Olivia and Temi and Noor, and Karimot, and Meena and and there will be more young women next week. I am very, very, very much looking forward to it. In the meantime, lots of love, Julia.

To become part of our movement and share your thinking with us, subscribe to the podcast and join the women emerging group on our website at womenemerging.org. We love all of the messages you send us; keep them coming.