What does inventing a product really look like behind the scenes?

In this episode, I’m joined by Zoe Chapman, inventor of The Whizzer, the world’s first compact, unisex portable toilet. Zoe shares how a very real parenting problem turned into inventing a product that’s now used by families, campers, travellers and adults with medical needs.

We talk openly about the realities of building a product based business, from manufacturing and protecting your idea, to appearing on Dragon’s Den, selling on Amazon, and managing growth without big budgets or a team.

This is a friendly, honest conversation for anyone thinking about inventing a product, or already building one and wondering if what they’re experiencing is normal.

In this episode, we cover

1. How Zoe went from an idea on paper to inventing a product people genuinely need
2. Knowing when there’s enough demand to take a product to market
3. What manufacturing really involves when you don’t have funding
4. The reality of Dragon’s Den, before filming and after it airs
5. Selling on Amazon, visibility, margins and learning as you go
6. Burnout, resilience and why your why matters more than anything

If you’re building a product business and feeling overwhelmed, this episode will help you feel reassured, informed and far less alone.

Find Zoe here

www.whizzer.co.uk

Instagram handles @kiddiwhizz @whizzer_world

Facebook: Kiddiwhizz

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-a-chapman

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and meeting Zoe

03:00 The problem that led to inventing a product

08:40 Validating the idea and understanding demand

13:00 Manufacturing, factories and protecting your product

20:10 Behind the scenes of Dragon’s Den

25:00 What happens after the show airs

35:00 Selling on Amazon and managing margins

50:00 Lessons learned, burnout and resilience

01:03:15 Final advice for product based founders

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Welcome to the bring your product idea to life podcast. This is the podcast for you if you're getting started selling products or if you'd like to create your own product to sell.

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product creation coach and Amazon expert. Every week I share friendly practical advice as well as inspirational stories from small businesses.

Let's get started.

Hi.

Today on the podcast I'm speaking to Zoe Chapman, the inventor of the wizard, the world tiniest toilet. So Zoe is a Bootstrap solo founder who launched her business during the pandemic.

Despite attempting the impossible, she knew how much her product helped millions. So she sacrificed everything and within a year of launching, she was approached to appear on BBC's Dragon's Den.

Zoe and I have a really good in depth conversation. You can probably tell from the length of this episode.

We speak about what inspired her to create her product, how she approached getting the design and manufacturing done. We spoke about her time on track and sten how she's found selling on Amazon.

And Zoe is really candid and honest about the struggles of starting a business.

Zoe's a single parent, which she talks about and she spoke about, you know, the impact that running her business has on her life, the time she's put in, the impact it's had on her health and how she has turned things around for herself in this past year. This is a really interesting, honest, informative conversation. I think there's so much you will be able to learn from this.

I would love now to introduce you to Zoe. So hi Zoe, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me.

So can we start with you? Please give an introduction to yourself, your business and what you sell.

Yeah, sure. So my name is Zoe Chapman.

I'm the inventor of a product called the Wizr, which is the world's first and smallest toilet of its kind, designed to be unisex and compact for on the go for all ages, from children all the way up to men and women.

And I started the business four and a half years ago, launched the first kids product and now I'm, yeah, a long way into the journey of, of the business.

We've got so much to talk about. So let's start with obviously the wizard is such a unique product. How did you come up with the idea?

So like with most people that invent a solution or think of something innovative, it always comes from a problem that you've had and generally I've found that it's a problem that a lot of people have if that business becomes successful. As a result of it.

So my problem was that I had a potty training toddler that needed the toilet all the time and I couldn't carry a huge potty around with me. He didn't. Although he was potty trained, he needed a wee for years and years up until he was like seven.

He wasn't dry at night, for example, which I later found out he had a hormone deficiency.

But the struggles that I had were something that I had from many parents that didn't want to carry a big potty around and wanted to have something discreet for their children to use on the go. So that's where I started. And at the end, at the same time, I was caring for my dad who was wheelchair bound and then bed bound.

So taking them both around, you know, day to day was a challenge. It was already a challenge.

Getting my dad in and finding, you know, disabled facilities where I could get him to the toilet, that was a challenge in itself.

So.

So doing that with a toddler as well, and I was like, why is there not some solution other than those kind of medical urinal type things that leak?

And so I'd started carrying around a paper cup, like a coffee cup with me from my morning coffee and I use that for my son on the go and that would be my daily thing. And then I have like a mind where I, when I see a problem, I try and find the solution.

So designed this thing on paper that I wanted to create and it just took me a really long time to actually turn it into a business.

Thank you. And actually, for anyone who doesn't know what a wizard is, can you just explain?

And if you've got one to hand, you can show as well because obviously we're on video. If you wouldn't mind just explaining to anyone who hasn't yet seen it, of course, I hope everyone's going to go and take a look.

Well, it's just something that, like I said, like, from a parenting perspective, kids always need weed. Just because they're potty trained, it doesn't mean that they automatically stop needing to go.

It is one of those things, regardless of whether you've said to them, have you been to the toilet for your last wheeze and then five minutes later, oh, I need to go to the toilet. That is just a common thing. And so this was the, this is the first one I started out with. And it's, it's so small, so discreet.

Can hang it off the buggy.

And it's just, it's all compact so that you you don't have to worry about it taking up space or, you know, looking like, especially for older children, that it's, you know, embarrassing for them or anything like that. And it just.

The way I designed the spout, it's all made of silicon as well, to avoid using plastic because so many potties and urinals and things are plastic.

So this is all made of high grade silicon and the front gives privacy and it scoops down so the girls can use it because previously there was no option where a girl could, all women could stand up and use it other than the ones that we know of that come with their own issues. So this was something that would make sure that whatever age you are, it keeps it all hygienic and mess free.

And then after I launched the kids one, I had so many requests from mums who would tell me their embarrassing stories, which I hear all the time. I know that mums have weed in their neck, kids, nappies, it's not something. And various other things.

Like to me it's just so normal to hear these stories, but it isn't to other people. And it's. And then that's why I ended up, after I did Dragon's Den, I launched the adult version, which is essentially the same, but it's collapsible.

So it's, it's still the same. This is an Excel one, so they're still compact, but yeah.

And now the adult one sells more than the kids one because it's for uses from every day just to keep it in the car all the way to, you know, men that struggle with prostate.

And in between that, it's the traveling, it's the camping, it's the festivals, it's all, all sorts of scenarios that at the time, especially medical conditions that I'd never even heard of. And it's just, it solves the problem for so many people.

So, yeah, from a, from an idea trying to solve one problem, I've turned, it's turned out I've solved problems for many different people.

That's amazing.

And I think I've told you this already, but as soon as we met and I told my husband about it, he went and bought one the same week for camping and having in the car and things like that. It's just like, it is one of those things that once you know about it, you're like, I could really do with one of those.

So whether you have like problems or not, it's just finding a toilet always hard and especially as you say, with kids. But as for Adults as well. You like, sometimes if you've got, you know, you've got to go, you've got to go.

That's. That's my tagline. So. And that's the thing. And it's just because talking about toilets is so taboo. But it's something we all do and we always.

We all have situations.

I couldn't actually, I feel like I should write a book of all the scenarios that people tell me about because it's just every day, so it's just so normal and the wildest scenarios that I would never think. So it's got to a point where I'm like, I want to be challenged, I want to hear something new. Because they're all such so normal to me to hear now.

So it is, it has just become one of, one of those things that it's just people say when you know, you know, like one of those products that people say, why wasn't this invented before? Why wasn't there a solution like this before? But that's how all products, businesses start.

And I think, especially when you're starting out and you're unsure of your audience, you're unsure of how to prove that this is a product that people need that reassurance from customers at the beginning is what will make sure that you can guide yourself through that journey to find your customers. Because at the end of the day, if you haven't done the research to know that there's a problem that your product is solving, who's going to buy it?

You know, you can't have a small target audience and expect to grow a massive business from it. You have to be realistic in terms of that.

And you may be bringing a product to market that's similar to others or, you know, you might have branded it in a different way. That happens a lot. So then you've got competitors, for example, that you can kind of gauge against in terms of like their audiences.

But when you've invented a product and, you know, even just defining yourself in a category like on something like Amazon that we're going to talk about, I've gone in, I have to list my product in so many different categories that don't actually fit it, because there isn't one specifically for my product. So it comes with other challenges.

But yeah, if you're going to invent a product or bring a product to market, make sure that you've got a large target audience to cater for.

So how. Thank you. I think that makes so much sense. I think obviously your product solves a problem that Every single person has and will have.

So there's obviously a really large market. But at what point in the design process did you think, yes, there is a need for this?

At what point did you feel like you had that validation, this was something worth pursuing?

I think with the kids, one is just being around other parents. I was my target audience. I was a mum that struggled with this and I was the mom that wished I had this.

Especially at night times, getting up and down with my son every night, multiple times a night. If I had a whizzer sitting there by the bed, I mean, my back would be thanking the product if nothing else.

But it just would have made life so much easier.

And so when you are your own target audience and you're surrounded by people that have that same problem, then you start to go, okay, you're right, it's not just me.

And then, and obviously there's so many audiences now, like I said, like with especially within the medical side of it and equally like say for example, camper vans, like, I'm not a camper, like I'm just not an outdoorsy person.

So I didn't really think of the thought process that people would have of being in a tent and not wanting to leave the tent at nighttime to find a portaloo and all the things that that come with.

Although I wasn't my target audience, that came as a result of me launching the product and then seeing what these new problems are that are coming to me. Like, oh, okay. It seems like I'm getting a lot of things, feedback about camping and then equally campervan.

I've got a lovely campervan community that swear by the wizard because again, not I've not been in a campervan, but I know all about them now and I know all about the facilities and the shovels.

So I guess it's just like having that connection with your customers and starting off like I said before, like making sure that you know your target audience and that there's a real appetite and need for, for what you're offering.

Thank you.

And are you constantly having to update how you position the products as you find these different ways that people are buying it and the different customer groups that are buying that are purchasing?

Yeah, I mean, luckily for me, I say luckily, this is a double edged sword because on the one hand, because I didn't have the typical business journey in the sense of I didn't have funding to, to run ads and to have a budget to make sure that I reached my customer bases like that way in the normal way, everything that I'd done was organically. So the majority of my sales come from someone else telling someone else.

So especially with the kids one when I first started, you know, those first two years were literally a case of one mom would buy it solves their problem.

They tell all their friends about their mum friends about it, that mum has got it attached to their buggy or attached to their bag and they go, what's that?

And you tell them, and then in the park, they'll see someone using it and they're like, oh, yeah, I don't want to have to lift my child up butt naked and behind a tree. Yeah, that's great. So it's like that organic growth was what I relied on and it's still the same now. In terms of the adult one.

I have that boost, obviously from being on Dragon's Den. I was only on there showcasing the kids one because that's. I was only a year into my business, so that's all I had. But by the.

The show did air, I got to the point where I had designed this, the adult one, and was ready to launch it. So again, that exposure then bought new. A new customer base to me that I could then adapt to their needs.

That makes sense.

Thank you.

And we'll come back to Dragons Den in a moment because I do want to ask specifically about that, but what I'd love to know is how did you go about getting the wizard designed and manufactured? Because obviously this is a really unique idea. You mentioned this was something you drew that you wanted to create.

How did you go from having this idea, putting it on paper, to then getting prototypes and eventually getting it manufactured?

Well, networking always pays off. Having people around you that have certain have done anything that you want to do, whatever area.

So I started out because I had a. I was in a WhatsApp group of. A small group of relatively startup businesses that had children's products. And I had, I was actually hadn't even launched the Wizard.

I hadn't even got to the point where I'd manufactured it.

So I was in this group just by chance because I knew someone that had started it and all of these people in there had, had got established businesses that probably everyone would know now because they've grown phenomenally. A lot of them have been on Dragon's Den as well. So they're massive businesses now.

But at the beginning, all those years ago, they were still establishing and growing and so I could turn to them when it came to it for questions. So my friend was the inventor of the suction plate, which is made of silicon easy tots.

And so when I knew I wanted to make it from some silicon and not plastic, I went to her and said, you know, just ask for advice. And she was like, I've got this great factory. Let me do an intro. And then that took off from there.

And my relationship with my factory is probably the most important relationship that I've got within the business, just because ordinarily you would need a lot of money to front the sort of manufacturing molds and production costs that I had. And they helped me, they supported me, they believed in me, they believed in the vision I had.

They saw how hard I worked and those usual financial problems that you would have, they really backed me on that.

Yes, I had to max out every single credit card I had to pay them, but they were incredibly patient, and they continue to be incredibly patient because they. They saw. They saw the vision.

Yeah. Thank you. And I think you're right. Having that relationship is so important.

And are you still using the same manufacturer as you were all those years ago? That's really good and really unique as well.

Yeah, he's. Yeah, Victor, he's almost a part of. He just is a part of the business.

Like, he knows how much I appreciate all the support he's given, and we've always had a really good relationship like that. So, yeah, definitely your relationship with your manufacturer, especially when it comes to a product. My biggest worry was that if I.

If I bring this product to market, as soon as something unique comes up, if it does take off, then you're more likely to be copied quicker. And that was always my main concern, which is why one of the first things I did was to start to protect my ip.

But when it comes to sending a design to a factory where you've got no protection, you have to have that level of trust in them. And going forward, again, they were the ones that helped me early on get that protection.

And to know that your manufacturer is in this with you will ensure at least that you can have that level of trust and protection in whatever you're designing.

That makes sense.

And of course, because your product is so unique, there was always going to be the risk that someone could have looked at it and said, actually, we quite like this idea. We can make our own version. I guess that was always a risk at the outset.

I think that's the thing that made me work ridiculously hard. I felt like I can only explain it in the sense of I was running a race. I could see the Finish line.

And I felt like that there was always someone behind me, chasing me. And so where I had invested so much money, like, if this didn't work, if that had happened, I would be bankrupt. I would lose.

I didn't have, really have anything to lose. I literally had no property. No, like, I had nothing. I lost my car anyway because I put that up to be able to afford the manufacturing.

I had nothing really to lose, but I did have a lot of debt, personal debt and the implications of that alone, as a single mom that have. That I have a child that is relying on me to make sure that I don't mess up. That is what kind of made me just not stop.

And those that watch my early journey of me working like night and day, relentlessly, and I was constantly told, this is not sustainable. The way you work is just not sustainable. You need to. And I'm like, nope.

Until I get to that point where I can take a deep breath and be like, okay, I wasn't. I wasn't going to stop at all.

Like, and I maintain that kind of intensity probably until I'd paid those debts off like three years in or like the same year as Dragon's Den.

Because I knew that at that point where it had become so public, if someone did come and copy, it's like, well, I've got proof that I was there first sort of thing. It's inevitable at some point. I've got so many friends that have found their products on Temu and Amazon and things like that.

So I know, or in Audi, I know the implications of what happens if your product is copied. And of course I'm always going to be fearful of that. But that's where your branding comes in.

That's where establishing your audience and building that brand awareness around the business, put your face to your product, your business, all of these things that you can do, I can tell you can do it and you can do it for free, um, in many ways, because that's how I've had to do it. But that in itself is what you need to focus on at the beginning.

If you can't afford to make sure, you know, like I said, you've got massive marketing budgets, you've got a great network of people that are going to share it, influencers, celebrities, access to, you know, all the things that you need to make sure that you get visibility for it. You don't have access to any of that. Like, I didn't then. There are so many ways that, that you can do that by just, just to make sure.

That you're establishing yourself.

That makes sense.

And I think putting your face behind the brand is really important as well, because as you said, that people then recognize, you know, you and the products are linked.

And I think that really, really does help, because if someone sees another version, they'll know this isn't Zoe's, I think, because they'll associate your product with you. And I think that's really, really smart. Let's talk a little bit more about Dragon's density. So which year was it that you appeared, Zoe?

Oh, amazing. So what made you decide to apply and what was the experience actually like? Because I'm sure it's not what we see on the tv.

I've got to be loose with the way. So I applied initially because of that visibility. There's nowhere else that you would get that kind of exposure.

I thought that I was way too early on like it was.

Although my friend who I said that had got the Factory, she just appeared on Dragon's Den the year that I had launched, and I knew someone else in our group was going to appear the following year. And so I had people around me that had been in the process and been through the process, and remarkably, I still didn't know what was to come.

But I remember I'd had a meeting with Rob, the inventor of Chunky, and I talked to him about it and he was just like, look, if you get the chance, just do it. Just do it. And so when I got that email from Dragon's Den, the researchers saying, have you. Could you apply? Would you like to apply?

And I'm like, I think I'm too early on. I'm only a year into it. Maybe I'll do it next year. And they're like, no, we want you to do it this year. We're going to support you.

And, you know, I got a researcher assigned to me right from the beginning who was amazing, and they basically supported me through the process. It's not okay. So if you just fill out an application form and then you get a phone call and you go up to the studios, it's not.

It's like, it's rigorous. And when I look at the time that I had to invest in order to just do the show, I think people don't realize the commitments involved.

And so that first bit is extremely intense because they're getting people in for the filming around May, June time. So that's when a lot of due diligence is done. And then after that, it's a case of you filmed.

But you will never know if your episode will make it to air. And they're very open about that. It's like there's never. It's never a case of you will get shown. It's always just. Just know that we filmed it.

There's no assurances literally until two weeks before you air. So I waited after that. So that was June, so I waited and I didn't air until February the next year. So you have to stay quiet.

You can't say anything to anyone. And you have to, like, be prepared because you just don't know how the final edit is going to be. You know what they're going to keep in.

Like, you would have heard many times of people that have done the show that the actual time that you're in there can be up to two hours. And so depending on which segment you get shown in. Mine was the full 12 minutes, I think it was.

So what they're going to edit down from that hour and a half, two hours that you're in there, you have no clue about. You're going to watch it on TV like everyone else.

So you can't really predict what your sales are going to be like and what, especially when it's a product that hasn't been done before. Which, of course, that's what Dragon's Den is known for. So being.

Being able to compare yourself, even in my friends, my friend group of people, there's no comparison because they're different products and they're different people and they're going to be viewed and judged and all the rest of it by completely different audiences.

So I was lucky in the sense of like my edit was, although I wasn't expecting the focus to be so much on my mental health and that whole side of things. But the information that they did keep in mind, it's obviously the stumbles that they have to put in for everyone has to mess up a bit in there.

But the.

The information they did, the most important bit for me was the fact that they mentioned, when they added in, when I mentioned that I was looking to launch the adult version.

So that for me is what drove those initial sales after the show for the, for the presale of the adult version, which then made me able to bring it into manufacturing.

Thank you. And so how does being on the show affect your business once it's actually been broadcast?

I mean, well, again, you can't, you can't really predict it because I've seen people think that, number one, they don't know if they're going to ask. So you buy it. You have to make sure that you're. You've got enough stock for whatever the option is or you've got a backup.

There's so many things you need to do before it's aired. Even that there's so many things. If I went back and I did it again, there's so much I would do differently.

But no one can tell you exactly what I mean.

I speak to people that have applied or going through the process and there's certain little things that I'll tell them to do from mistakes that I made. But ultimately you don't, you really don't know.

So as long as you make sure that you've got enough stock, you've got the logistics figured out, your sales, my sales went through the roof in comparison. But what I didn't expect was the Adult wizard to sell more than the Kids Wizard. And so I was prepared because I had the Kids wizard.

That's the only product I'd actually manufactured. But as soon as they're given the option of the adult version, who knew that would be more popular? And I hadn't even manufactured the adult version.

So that in itself was just a case of oh my gosh, it wasn't expecting the sales to go through like that. I now need to figure out how the hell I'm going to manufacture a product overnight.

So it's just, it's really, it's really unique to the product and your entire business set up.

But what I can say is I've seen so many businesses that they did well initially from the airing and then within months they have lost their business because the assumptions are the bit that kind of. You can't predict. And there's many reasons why. You know, whether it is that you've.

You've purchased too much stock or you've underestimated the involvement from a Dragon, or you contract and go through, or there's just so many, or, or there's part of the, the backlash of something that you've said in the, in the, in the airing, in the edit that you weren't expecting would come back to you. There's just so many things that can happen. It's hard to say this is going to be the outcome.

Ideally, you want to have a huge influx in sales and luckily I did get that. But, yeah, it's just managing all the different.

Making sure that you've sort of got in mind most of the scenarios that could potentially happen and what you're going to do if they arise.

Thank you. And out of interest, what did you do about not having any adult wizards, like ready to sell? Did you overcome that?

That was a stressful eight weeks.

Yeah. That sounds, I mean, like a good problem to have, but still a big problem.

Yeah. This is the thing in business. I've learned that the problems that come up are a lot of the time good problems to have.

Especially when you sell out of a product. You're like, this is great that I've sold out, but what am I going to do? Because customers don't care.

You have to remember, customers don't care if you're having a, you know, a breakdown or you've got family issue or you just cannot fulfill their order immediately for whatever reason. They don't care what your excuse for it is. They just want their product or they want what they've paid for.

So for me, luckily I'd made it perfectly clear on the website that it was pre order, the product was pre order. The images that they saw and the demos that I'd shown were of a sample version. I was very.

Every single person that purchased got regular emails on the updates of where I got to with the process.

So I would say every step of the manufacturing journey, for example, I would share an email every few weeks to say, we've got to this stage or the packaging, this is the packaging or whatever it was, so that they felt like really informed, so they didn't feel like, oh, I've just paid all this money and it's not really, you know, in the grand scheme of things, you know, 20 pounds is, is not necessarily for something you're going to have for the rest of your life, is not. Luckily, it's not a massive outlay.

But even still, I took it seriously that someone has parted with their money, regardless of how much it is, and I wanted to make sure that I personally made sure that they felt comfortable and they weren't. And at any point, if someone wanted to back out and, and get a refund, then I'd do that straight away. Luckily, most people didn't.

And when it came to actually having the product, it was about eight weeks and I did that. It should have been longer to maximize profits.

I should have you know, C shipped it and there's so many things I could have done, but the urgency was, no, I promised a product. I'm going to deliver a product in the absolute quickest time that I can and then figure out the rest. So that's what I did.

Well, thank you for sharing that. That sounds. Yeah.

Intense.

Yeah, Tricky. Intense. Yeah.

All of.

All of the words.

So I know you mentioned that going on Dragon's Den is like a really unique experience, but you've also said there's advice you'd give to anyone who was applying now. So what's, what's some of, like, more general tips or learnings you tell people?

I'd probably stay for one. The majority of people that appear on the show, I've noticed a pattern in the sense of they were. They were chosen.

So they got contacted by a Dragon's Den researcher. You've got to remember that they are researching to find the best people to go on the show.

And just because you've got a great product, a great idea in your mind that might not be the right fit for the program or the series at that time. You know, it could be down to a trend, it could be down to your. Your background story.

If they don't, can't, you know, showcase you as a person in whatever way, good or bad, they need to make sure that you're going to fit in with the show. Because ultimately it's entertainment. You know, you might be there for other reasons, but it's entertainment.

So I think from the very beginning, you need to understand, like I said earlier, about the realistic time frame and how much time you're going to dedicate to this.

When I calculate it's about three years of my business has been focused on Dragon's Den, whether it is pre, pre show, post show, the investment process, you know, that whole Dragon's Den involvement, probably about three years. So that is a lot of time for someone that's running their business alone to have to dedicate to that part of your growth. If.

And you have to be realistic, you have to know that just because you've applied, just because you've done that first initial pitch, just because you got to the stage of the producers and this, there's no guarantee.

And I would always say to people like, to make sure, don't go out and buy a few films, don't go out and buy, you know, more stock than you can afford, or don't take too many risks based on that. Just make sure that if you do want to go on the show, that you are, are making sure you're present on social media, that you're present. You've got.

You've got enough going for you that you can prove that this product has all the information and the demand to prove to the Dragons that this is a product that will sell. If you go there and you, you know, we've all seen it. You go there and you're like, okay, this is great. You've sold the product.

How many have you sold?

And when they delve into the numbers and they can't find it, you need to be prepared when they really pick at you for every bit of information that you've got an answer for it. And if you don't, I'd suggest waiting a year until you feel a bit more prepared.

That's really good advice. Thank you. It sounds like a really intense process.

Very intense. And also you, like, with anything, you're gonna make mistakes.

Like, I made so many mistakes because it was my first year of business, and then going into my second that everything was new to me.

I didn't have people necessarily that would be able to answer these questions, and I didn't have a team around me that I could go to to figure out the answers. It was just me.

So the whole thing was aligning process and you're going to make mistakes, but the most important thing is that you learn from them and you're able to act quickly when you notice that there's something.

That's really good advice. Thank you. Let's move to talking about Amazon, if that's okay, Zoe. So let's start with what made you decide to start on Amazon. Let's start there.

So Amazon, as we all know, is like a monster in good and bad. It's the platform that every single brand is on, regardless of.

If you're, you know, selling a cheap knockoff version of something that's, you know, from China all the way up to the biggest brands that you have around you all the time. So. And everyone's on there.

So it's like, although for small businesses, it's a massive risk to go on there for many reasons, from the fact that it's often not financially viable for a business to sell on there because the margins are just so slim and the investment that you need even to start on Amazon is huge.

If you don't know and you can't afford an agency or, or you can't afford in house, someone in house to start it for you and run it for you, it's a whole other business inside your business. And Again, for me, I had not any clue on how to run Amazon, but I knew that's where my customers were.

And if I couldn't afford to do the marketing like I said earlier, then I needed another way to get exposure. And being on Amazon is probably the riskiest way to get that exposure.

Especially if you've got an innovative product because you're basically opening up to everyone and there's so many things that competitors, other brands, anyone can just literally look the back end of Amazon and see what your sales are like. And if you're doing well, then you will get targeted in some way.

So just the starting up of Amazon and establishing your brand and learning as you go is, like I said, is a whole job in itself, but one that you need to, you really need to do if you want that kind of visibility.

Yeah, thank you. I mean, you know that I'm definitely in agreement with you that it's a good place to sell.

However, the challenges that come from selling there are vast compared to other platforms that I've had experience of and that I've seen. So for anyone who might be considering Amazon as a sales channel, what advice would you give them?

I would say with, I think the place that I've lost the most amount of money is probably taking on agencies. There's you. You don't have to go far to speak to that many businesses or on Amazon to know that you know, even just one or two dodgy agencies.

And it, and it's not even that I don't want to say they're dodgy. It's just there's tactics that I've learned that agencies use to make you think that they're increasing your revenue, but in fact they're not.

And the reason why you need an agency is to manage the ad side of it ads. You have to know that ads are critical however you want to approach.

You can be on Amazon, anyone can list on Amazon, but if you want to rank on Amazon, you have to be able to, to invest in ads. And, and if you don't have that initial capital to put behind ads, then you're going to have to expect a slower uptake in sales.

And I had to do it very modestly because I didn't, I didn't have it at all. And when I started with the agency that I did, I naively, you know, went into it trusting that they would have my best interests and not knowing.

Luckily what I did is I learned as I went and so everything they were doing I was like shadowing and learning and Doing myself, everything that I could do myself to lower the cost of things and to make it grow myself, I was doing.

And so when it came to it, and I started to notice things weren't quite as they seemed because I'd learned so much, I was able to pull them up on it and get out of a contract that was not good for my business. And I've done that a few times, I've had to do that. And it's so I'd say be aware people.

There's so many companies that want to run your Amazon you have to look at. It's not just about your roas, your return on ad spend and all of the other names that you're going to get thrown at with.

It's also about like you've got to make sure that your margins are there. Like, you have to have know that you're the cost of what you're manufacturing your product for or the amount that it's costing to ship it.

The fees are just mind boggling for any accountant, let alone a business owner to try and figure out the amount of fees and where it's all going with Amazon.

So unless you've got someone that knows and can teach you, I'd say always make sure you know as much as you can and learn, be prepared to learn as much as you can because there will be somebody that's going to catch you out and make you think that you're doing really well. But in actual fact you're like, why am I not actually making any money? It's because the margins are so small.

So if you're reinvesting in your ads, you have to be, you have to look at it as an investment to start. There's so many things there are.

And don't worry, I do lots of podcast episodes about Amazon. So yeah, there's, yeah, hopefully people are getting the idea and I'm with you on the margins particularly.

And as you know, I think Amazon's great, but I actually don't think it is for everyone. And one of the biggest reasons I think it may not work for a brand is margins.

Because as you said, there were so many fees and because you have to put that investment into getting started if it's not going to work for you margin wise.

There's a bit I will often say to people, you know, maybe not now doesn't mean not forever, but not now, it's not going to make sense for you financially given the amount of investment in time, money, energy that you need to put in.

I should also Say another reason, unless there's another reason like in the sense of like brand awareness.

So if, if you're willing to invest because you need brand awareness, that's potentially another, a tactic that people use in the sense that they know they're not gonna, the margins are gonna be minimal or non existent but they're willing to get that brand awareness, which is what I did.

That is a good point.

And I do work with brands who do that who'll say, you know, they're fine to break even on Amazon, they know they're not gonna make if much money, if any, and they're willing to break even. But I think you need to go into it knowing that's the case.

What I think's hard is when brands are get set up on Amazon, maybe they work for an agency, they get set up, they're on there for a while and then six months in they go, I'm actually losing money by being here. And I think if you've made that strategic decision to do that, that's one thing.

But when you're sort of caught unawares and suddenly you're realizing actually I can't make any money here, that's really different and difficult.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And that's why learning about the whole process from the beginning, you're not going to.

I probably have only known, you know, a fraction of Amazon, but I know enough. Hopefully now you know, but that's because I've worked directly with Amazon.

I've got, I've had account managers within Amazon, I've had ad account managers within Amazon. So I've worked with them. And you, you know, when we've looked at my account that what the level of understanding I have of my own account.

And again that's all self taught or through lessons I've learned.

Yeah, thank you. And I should say for anyone who's had bad agency experiences, I am here.

As well and why we found each other.

Yes, and it's great you've had some support from within Amazon as well. But I also should make it clear to everyone that not everyone gets that that's something you're offered.

So please don't go into Amazon thinking, oh it's fine because I'll get an account manager, I'll get someone to help with ads because it's invite only. That is very unlikely to be the case from day one. So just to make that very, very clear.

So I think it's important to note as well that I didn't just get given someone within Amazon to support me, it had come as a result of a year where I'd made the most amount of money on Amazon that I'd ever made. I'd grown the business. This wasn't even the year I'd done Dragons down in terms of sales.

It was the following year where I'd actually added the adult wizard onto Amazon that had grown my sales. But as a result of the agency I had and the investment that they had made on my behalf into ads, I'd actually only broken even like you said before.

But that meant that I'd spent a huge amount on ads. And as a result, although I had to move away from the agency because I couldn't, it wasn't financially viable anymore for me to do.

Luckily, I was given an internal Amazon ads manager who would help me. We would have weekly meetings and looking at my ads.

But even then, even within Amazon, I think it's really important to note, to note that one thing that I was obviously like so grateful I was speaking to an actual real person which given the years of problems I'd had on Amazon, you name the problem, I've had it, you know, like I had been. I've. Amazon owes me a huge amount of money for internal mistakes that they've made for, from shipping, from my, my just there's so many.

My brand protection.

I wasn't given the years of fighting for certain things that I'm still fighting for because I cannot find a human being to help me resolve that other than raising a ticket and getting a response back from them that makes absolutely no sense.

Those are the frustrations that I have dealt with and I still continue to deal with even though I do have a manager within Amazon they themselves cannot solve because there's so many different departments in Amazon.

So I think that's really helpful to know because just because you do manage to get to that point, you have to know that you have to have spent a huge amount with Amazon for them to see that you've got value. And even when you are working with them, they still want you to spend that money.

So the programs that I got put on, as you know, I got put on a program recently and although it's great to get offered these programs because it shows that Amazon have recognized that you've got a great selling product and, and, and everything, but you're still looking at investing continuously.

And so yeah, there's multiple different programs I've done with Amazon since that growth and I continue to do them, but I always see them as a learning process that's really useful.

Thank you so while we're talking about learning, Zoe, what's been the biggest or some of the biggest lessons you've learned? Well, growing your brand. They can be Amazon related or they can be something else.

I think for me the biggest thing that I struggle with firstly is finance, of course, but secondly, trusting people. It's so easy for people over the past nearly five.

Yeah, five years to said to people, I hear it all the time, just hire this person, just hire that person, just, you should get someone to do this, you should get someone to do that and great, that would be wonderful in an ideal world obviously, but finding someone that you can trust.

I've attempted to find people to run multiple parts like Amazon, like social media and I get burned every single time because it just comes and it always comes back to the fact that I end up having to do it myself because I know my business and the only one that's going to really put your business first is you. And also the best people for the job if you, you have to get to a point where you can afford them because if, if you, I.

There's so many times that I've got email, emails from people saying this is my job role, this is what I can do for you. And I'm like, thank you so much, but no one works for free and I don't have any money to pay you.

So as much as, as much as it would be great to be able to build a team unless you've got investment or, or the ability, the ability to do that, you have to, you have to know that every single part of your business will need to be done by you and you will need to understand it. I hate finances, for example. I hate, I hate it, I hate spreadsheets. I, I hate it all.

But an Amazon, again, I'm not, I, it's not my favorite thing by far, but there's things that I've had to learn and I can't just do the fun bits. Like I love design, so I love designing, you know, products and packaging and branding and all of that. I love doing that.

But reality is that isn't what takes up my time and that's not what I can dedicate it to.

Equally, social media, like things change within your business and you're constantly going to get to a point where, although you're reaching the next milestone that you thought, oh my God, how amazing would it be if I got to that point? And then you get to that point and you're like, it's almost like an anti climax because you're always focusing on the next milestone.

But the most important thing is that I've learned is that I've having watched businesses that I've come up with and then them have to them lose their business, is that people that you have around you are really important. They can literally end your business if it's not the right person.

And the only way you can save yourself in those situations is by knowing the job that you're asking that person to do and knowing how you want it to be done and that if they do mess up at any point, you can fly in and resolve the situation quickly.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that, Zoe.

What I, I mean it gave you don't know answers, but what I'd love to know is how are you managing to wear all of those hats yourself? Because obviously as you shared, you're doing everything across your business.

How are you managing to do that and also, you know, function and be a parent and a friend and all of the other roles that we have. How are you, how are you doing this?

I wouldn't say I was the first sort of three years, three, maybe four years when I went into my fourth year, I didn't have, I absolutely didn't have a social life or I didn't even watch tv.

Like you know, all, all through the pandemic, for example, people were binge watching series and series and, and they were doing so many things at home that I just wasn't doing. I didn't even switch on the tv. All I did was work and I would.

God, I couldn't tell you the months, how many months and the years of me working through the night and then my son waking up and then I go and do the school run and then I come back and I continue working. The amount of nights that I just didn't sleep at all because I was just glued to my computer.

But the, the thing for me is that my brain works like that anyway. I've got a neurodiverse brain that just for some reason when I get something in my head, I can't let it go.

And I will keep on doing it and keep and like it's hyper focused until I achieve what it is that I want to achieve.

So the friends that I have around me know what I'm like and if they don't hear from me for six months or you know, just would just have the odd text or you know, a quick meeting, like that's fine. My friends aren't gonna, if anything that they're just gonna support me more because they know what I'm like.

So having people around you, God forbid, if I was in a relationship that can tell you that right now there is no way I would function in a relationship if I had someone, a partner. It was literally just me and my son. So I didn't have anyone depending on me, I didn't have other than my son.

And so as long as I put his needs first, which I did, and he was a part of the journey completely, bless him, he's gosh, what he's withstood through all that time, the tears, the stress, the, you know, seeing me get really ill as a result of this business and questioning why I'm doing this to us, like why, why am I doing this? And. But then being able to see, okay, fine, mum, Mum's worked really hard and this is a result of it. Now I have slowed down a lot.

I had some health worries and scares last year as a result of stress. That was a massive wake up call to me. And I turned 40 and last year and I was like, this is, this is my right, this is where I need to stop.

I know a lot of people when they turn 40, they have this, I don't know, awakening or whatever. I don't know if it's like a sort of like a midlife crisis or something, but for me I was like, I don't.

My dad ran his own business and he had his stroke as a result of stress and I would never want to leave my son in that situation. So of him caring for me, I'm all he's got. So I had to make sure that my health was put first, which I've done. And I feel a lot healthier this year.

That was my main goal for this year, to make sure that I focused on that work, life balance a bit more. It's never going to be perfect.

You're always going to have, be having a conversation with, with a friend or a family member and having a million things running in your back of your mind that you know that you have to hide a mask and all these worries all the time. And so there's never going to be a solution for that. But.

And I still work through the night, I still do those things and you know, but if you can find your, if you found your purpose and the reason why you're doing it, that makes things a lot easier. It's when your heart isn't in it.

And I know because there's so many times where I've gone, I just need to walk away from the business My heart's not in it. And to get back to that point is what drives me.

But when your heart isn't in it, you're not going to focus and be able to work in the way that you need to work in order to grow a business.

Thank you so much for sharing that, Zoe. And I'm really pleased that this year you've been giving yourself more time and your health improves. Thank you for being so honest about all of that.

Yeah, no, it's good. It's important to know.

Like, I wish I'd have known, but it's because I listen to podcasts like this that I've learned how other people have managed it.

And knowing about burnouts and the stress and the pressure that's put on and hearing people that have come out the other side from that, that's kind of what had pushed me.

And I had in my mind that it was possible being around being in networks that by women built, for example, where the founders of the biggest companies that are female run. And I can watch them see their success and knowing what their sacrifice sacrifice behind that.

It really gives you drive to know that if you do put in those hours and you do sacrifice that it can be worth it. But it is still always going to be a risk.

Yeah, of course. And I also think it's important to talk about it because I think it's good to let people know that that is or maybe what it takes.

Because sometimes you can look at someone online and you can think, oh, how have they got there? And you don't see all of, like the sleepless nights and all the hours they put in. Sometimes it can just seem like someone's come from nowhere.

And then when you delve into the story, you're like, actually they work day and night for five years or whatever it is, but often we don't see that part. So I think it is really important to talk about it so people can just know that one. That's what it takes.

But also kind of appreciate more what someone's been through to get their brand to where it is.

And also it's the same on the flip side. I've learned on the other side so many businesses and that I'm.

I've been around when I look behind it and I see how much support they've got financially and connections and so, so much I'm like, well, of course that they're successful because they had all of the foundations and support you could need to make a business.

So their business, for example, could be very similar to another business, but because they had the money to make sure that their brand stood out, to compete against that brand, they have swooped in and taken that segment of the market. So there's two.

There is the brands that have been not had the support, not had the network, not had the funding, all of that, and didn't come from a job in marketing or, you know, they weren't an exec in this company.

All the things that you would never realize about a company until you actually see behind it and you start meeting people and networking, there are those people, but then there are other people that you know. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're not working as hard they are.

It's just that it's inevitable that they will be quicker on the road to success. And there's nothing you can do about that. Because in comparing yourself to people like that.

I know I struggle with it all the time, to be in a room with people that were so. That are so successful, knowing that my product is.

Is something that people need as opposed to, say, a luxury that I know that people might not need as much as mine. But because that company has got access to more resources than me, of course it's going to be easier. It's just the way it is. So comparing is.

I always say comparing is a really dangerous game to play.

Definitely. And thank you for sharing that. That side of it as well, because you're absolutely right.

There are definitely brands out there that have a bit of an advantage, let's say. And.

But we never know the full story, which is why I think it's really, it's really refreshing when people like yourself just talk really openly because it's just helpful for everyone, I think, because it is really hard not to compare yourself. It's really hard not to think, why are they there when I'm here? It's. It's a lot.

So I think sort of staying in your own lane, as it were, and not getting letting other people get in your head is really good advice.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for all you've shared, Zoe, and all the time that you've given us. I've got one final question, if that's okay before we finish. Yeah. And that's. What would your number one piece of advice be for another product brand?

I guess the ones that I've said in terms of don't compare yourself, don't underestimate what's involved in all. All the things that I've explained. I guess all of it comes down to why you're doing it.

Why are you choosing to run a business, Work way more hours than you would in a normal job to get a salary that you know is going to come in without the worry that, the worries that we have as and the risks that we have as small businesses, business owners. What is it that's going to drive you?

And I've again, like what I've said, I've explained what my driver is, is my son and providing a better future for him, for myself, knowing that the skills that I had, I would never be able to find a job that I could utilize them in. So I had to create that job for myself in order for myself, for me to flourish.

Um, so, yeah, I would just always keep in mind, especially through the hard times, you know that where you're going to have people that if you've got, if you've, if you're doing well, there's going to be people that want to take you down. And my gosh, have I experienced that in, in the worst ways with, especially with big brands that you can't often compete against.

So you have to think out of the box of how you're going to fight, how you're going to fight against people. But instead of like going down, just make sure you're not going down without a fight. And the fuel for that will always be why you're doing this.

Thank you so much, Zoe, and thank you for everything that you've shared.

I hope it's been helpful.

It's been really helpful. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for listening. Right to the end of this video episode, do remember that you can get the full back catalogue and lots of free resources on my website, vickiewinberg.

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