The incarnation, or the idea of God becoming a man, sounds idolatrous to many Jewish people. In this week's episode of Our Hope Podcast, we are tackling the question of whether believing in Jesus is idolatry with one of our staff members from the UK, Fiona Sorbala.

Welcome to Our Hope,

a production of Chosen

People Ministries.

On this podcast you will hear

inspiring testimonies,

learn about Messianic

apologetics and discover

God's plan for Israel and you.

Wherever you're listening,

we hope you lean in,

listen closely and be blessed.

What is idolatry?

The dictionary defines idolatry

as “the

worship of idols,” or “extreme

admiration, love,

or reverence for something

or someone.”

In Abrahamic religions

like Islam, Judaism,

and Christianity,

idolatry describes

the worship of something

or someone else

other than the one, true God.

In today’s episode,

we will be exploring

Is believing

in Jesus idolatry?

This is a common question

within the Jewish community,

and it discourages

many from believing in Yeshua.

So then, the next question

we need to address

is, who is Jesus?

Some say

He was just a good man,

or that He was a wise teacher

or even a Prophet,

but we who are believers in

Yeshua call Him the Son of God.

So, is Jesus God?

To help us find answers

to these widely

debated questions,

we have invited Fiona

Sorbala, who is Chosen

People Ministries’ Branch

Leader in the UK.

And now,

I introduce the host of Our

Hope Podcast, Abe Vazquez!

Shalom and welcome to

this episode of Our Hope.

I'm so excited to be

back in this season

where we are talking about

some common Jewish objections

and today in particular

we're going to be tackling

this question of:

"Is believing in

Jesus idolatry?"

And that's a question

that is commonly

asked in our ministry

from the people

that we reach, particularly

during this outreach that we do

every summer called

Shalom New York.

An

that is where I met

this next guest, Fiona Sorbala,

on one of these outreaches.

She came

all the way from the UK

just to be on the

streets of New York

to share the Gospel

and to reach Jewish

people in New York.

So Fiona,

welcome to Our Hope, I'm

so glad that you

were able to join us!

Well, it's a pleasure

to be with you tonight.

So every first guest,

if this is your first

time on the show,

you have to answer

"What

is your absolute

Well,

this year for Shavuot,

I baked my very

first cheesecake

and it is a work and a half.

Two and a half hours

in the oven, four hours to cool

and an overnight in the fridge.

So guess what

I had for breakfast

the following day?

Cheesecake.

All that for cheese.

That's awesome.

But I'm sure it was delicious,

Ooh, it was!

Yeah, in New York

we know all about cheesecake.

We have our famous

Junior's cheesecake,

which we've mentioned

on this podcast

before unapologetically,

we love cheesecake here.

So Fiona thanks again

for being with us.

and before we jump

in a little bit,

I know that you were actually,

you were a believer

from very young, but

you didn't really

make the connection

to being a Jewish believer

until later in life.

Can you talk to us

a little bit about that?

Well,

I had a strange experience

when I was about,

I guess, five years old.

We were in Spain on holiday

and my mother put a finger

in my chest and tapped me

and said you must never forget

that you're Jewish now.

My mom was Jewish,

Sephardic from Egypt.

My dad's a Scott, not Jewish.

And from the time

that I can remember,

I went to church on my own.

Quite bizarre

when my dad's a psychoanalyst

and doesn't believe in God

and my mother is a Jewish woman

who won't even talk about faith

or God or her Jewishness.

other than that one occasion.

Well, my dad didn't know

she was Jewish

until after their wedding.

Wow.

She took him for

an Erev Shabbat dinner

to her cousin's.

But when I understand

what it meant to be born again,

I was about 14,

even though I'd gone

to church all my life.

Then I I find that

quite confusing because for me

it felt like it was her death

that meant

we moved to Scotland.

It was that move

that allowed me to understand

being born again,

and I felt like it was her

life in exchange from mine.

And so that meant my Jewishness

made me quite conflicted,

even as a teenager.

And it wasn't really

until I was

in my early twenties

at Bible College

and I got involved

in Jewish ministry

as my college outreach

that I began to realize

that there was a relationship

between being Jewish

and a follower of Jesus.

And

by the time

I'd left Bible College,

I ended up in London

in a Messianic congregation

and I can remember the battle.

I had everybody called

Jesus Yeshua, and I literally,

metaphorically crossed

my arms

and said there is no way

I'm calling Jesus Yeshua.

But you know what

the Lord does.

He has a funny way

of invading into your heart

and making the changes

that you're not quite

sure that you want.

And one day when I was praying,

kind of to my shock

and surprise at myself,

praying in the name of Yeshua.

OK Lord, I give up.

Yeah, yeah, right.

I give up already.

Well, thank you

for sharing that story.

I think this question

that we're asking

or trying to answer

was really appropriate

for you to help us,

because I'm sure you've heard

a lot of questions on your

on your street outreach

in New York and in the UK

and so

we're just really excited

to jump into this.

So my first question for you

in trying to answer

this question is

what is the Jewish perspective

of God and who He is?

I think fundamentally

Judaism represents itself

as a religion that's

committed to monotheism.

That is, the worship

of the one true God,

and therefore it's

unlike any other world religion

in its commitment

to the singularity of God,

and we see it most

clearly expressed in the Shema,

the daily- it's almost

like a confession

of faith or creed.

"Hear oh Israel,

the Lord our God

the Lord is one." And.

Maimonides, the Great

Jewish scholar, wrote

there's no unity

like the unity of God,

and what he meant is

that God is indivisible.

Therefore, God is

a singularity.

He's not a Tri-unity

or a Trinity,

and the other thing about it is

He can't be embodied,

and therefore He

can't be incarnate,

and that sets the backdrop

for the way Judaism talks about

God as Echad, God is One.

So in the Old Testament,

we read about God

walking in the Garden of Eden,

eating a meal with Abraham.

So how did the Jewish

people view this

if God cannot become a man?

Well,

this is an interesting one

because what the

general understanding is

is that it wasn't

God who physically

walked in the garden

because He can't have a body.

So what they say is

that it was the Word of God

or the voice of God

that is personified,

and even Rashi, another great

scholar, declares

that it is the word of God

who walked in the garden.

Of course, that amuses me.

He's trying to show that God

has no physical form

and therefore cannot walk,

but it's kind of prophetic

because the Messiah

in the opening of

the Gospel of John is

called the Word of God.

Great point.

And

As for Abraham, well,

the view is this that

all visitations,

supernatural visitations occur

in the form of a vision

or an open vision,

and even if in the vision

God has a physical form, it's

only in order to

communicate the truth.

However, the exception

is that literal messengers

or angels can appear

and can be seen by

the physical eye

and can be seen to have form

and be located in time

and space but God cannot.

So in the Bible,

idolatry, it's often,

it often involves

physical idols, right?

So typically

when we think of idolatry,

we think of like

the golden calf.

We think of objects

that you can see

in, like "worship",

and the Israelites

were frequently warned

not to worship these.

So tell me about

the Jewish perspective

of idolatry today.

Well,

I found a really

interesting comment

on a Jewish website

recently that said, Zionism

without faith in God

becomes idolatrous

because the love of the land

has replaced love for God.

Interesting.

And I really thought

that was quite a

profound statement.

And then just recently

I was also on the

My Jewish Learning website

and in one of their Torah

portion studies

there was a challenge

and the challenge was this

to consider those things

that hinder us from

the mitzvot or commandments

or from doing social justice,

this idea of repairing

the world, Tikkun olam.

And the author of the article

basically said that anything

that hinders us from

social justice or

walking in God's Torah

is idolatrous

and I like that thought,

but they also said

that the only way

that the Torah is a reality

is through life lived out

in keeping the Torah.

And

I just thought

you know anything and it's

so similar to Christianity.

And the thing that

replaces the love of God

or hinders us from following

God is ultimately

an idol, or idolatrous.

Last question

about the Jewish

perspective on things.

What do Jewish people say

about the identity of Jesus?

He's generally accepted

as

both having lived

as a historical figure

and yet, the mindset

instilled by tradition

is that he cannot be

the Messiah.

He's often seen as a good man.

There is an acknowledgment

that He taught the Torah,

and He encouraged others

to keep the Torah.

The Law of Moses,

but that He was nonetheless

just a man.

He might even

have been a prophet.

But He was just a man.

On that question,

so how is it even

possible for God

to become a man?

And what scriptural evidence

can we show that

the idea of God

appearing in human form

is both plausible

and reasonable?

Well, here's

the interesting thing.

The Talmud is a living document

open to reinterpretation

and added to over

the generations.

So perhaps we need

to have a conversation

about which words

do we believe?

The words of historical

Rabbinic teachers

or the words

written in the Tanakh?

And that, of course,

leads me to going back

and looking at

what were the earliest

interpretations of the Messiah.

What were those opinions

written by those

who lived closest to the time

when the Torah,

the Law of Moses

and the Tanakh was written,

and when we come to

this idea of can Adonai,

can the Lord appear as a man?

There is an idea in

the Rabbinic and in the

Jewish thinking that

Torah is embodied in the life

of the Rabbi

and in his teaching.

And so in a sense

is actually incarnated,

and when we then look at

the things that the Rabbis

tell us, they and

here's a lovely one,

they tell us that there were

seven things created,

or seven things that existed

before the foundation

of the world

before God created,

and one of them was the Torah

and another one was the

name of the Messiah.

And of course, that

beautifully fits

in again with John's

gospel in

the beginning was the word,

and the word was God.

And Torah doesn't

just mean law,

it means the words of God,

the instructions.

And I love challenging my

my Christian friends

and saying in the beginning was

Yeshua the Torah,

and but ultimately,

and fundamentally,

what we're saying here is that

if we go and look at Proverbs,

we find that it teaches us

that wisdom is personified.

And this appears to be literal,

because if we were to

read Proverbs 3:18,

which reads, "The Lord

by Wisdom founded the Earth,

by understanding

He established the heavens,"

and in (Proverbs) 8, verse 29

we read, "He set the sea

as its boundary,

so the water would not

transgress His command,

and He marked out

the foundations of the earth.

Then I was beside Him

as a master Workman." Well,

that means that the actual

text in Proverbs is saying that

wisdom had a physical form?

He was the master Craftsman

and that this Craftsman

was an active participant

in creation.

I know Christians

are not very keen

on the

intertestamental writings,

but in Wisdom Chapter 9

there is a beautiful statement

that says that God

made all things by His word

and ordained man through wisdom

and actually talks

about wisdom again

creating and the wisdom

being personified

and literally having a form.

If we can,

if a Jewish person is willing

then to accept that,

then we can begin to discuss

whether Abraham had

a vision of visitors

or whether he actually saw God

manifest Himself

in a physical form

because if wisdom is

the word is the word of God,

and the Word of God, is Yeshua,

then we're seeing a

little chain of thought

building up, and you know,

you only have to look at

Genesis chapter 32,

because Jacob wrestles

with the Man and what he wants

to achieve is blessing.

And of course, many suggest

that it was an Angel,

but Jacob's

own testimony of

the event is this,

"I have seen God

face to face and lived."

And you know it

actually in the text

where we read about Abraham,

we actually read in the text,

The Lord appeared to Abraham,

and yet what he saw were

three men.

Well,

it all gets quite confusing,

but I love the encounter with

Gideon as well.,

because he meets the

Angel of the Lord

and what he sees

is the Angel of the Lord,

but what he hears

is the voice of the Lord.

And now the Angel of the Lord

has the ability to speak

because he's sitting under

the terebinth trees.

And we also read that

in that same passage,

the Angel of the Lord

is sitting under

the terebinth trees,

but the Lord turned

to Gideon

and then the next thing

you read in this story

is Gideon's again,

his testimony is that he

has seen the Lord and lived,

and there are numerous other

encounters in Scripture

where we have sometimes

a slightly confusing picture,

but if you can follow

that train of thought

that in Proverbs

you have wisdom

personified, personified

with a physical form

and a physical activity,

and if you can accept that,

then perhaps you might

be willing to side

step the Rabbinic idea

and consider what

the actual written

text of the Torah the

the first five books of Moses

actually says and

it doesn't say that

he had a vision, it says,

"The Lords appeared."

And I think that

one of the things

that when we're talking

with Jewish people,

we want to encourage

is to actually

look at the text,

not just Rabbinic

interpretations but

what does the Word

of God itself have to say?

We'll be right back.

Shalom, my name is Nicole Vacca

and I'm one of the co-producers

of Our Hope podcast.

We created Our Hope

to be a window into

the Messianic community,

a place where we can discuss

Israel and the Bible

and a resource for people

who want to share their faith

more effectively

and compassionately

with the Jewish community.

If you are interested

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the rest of this episode.

Just going back

to Jacob wrestling

with this mysterious Man

who we know is God.

I mean, Jacob's name changes

and my question to you,

who changed his name?

Well, it's

a very good question.

The only person that

could have changed it

is is the Lord God Himself

and that name change

becomes the name

by which the Jewish people

are known,

the people of Israel.

Exactly, and

what does Israel mean?

The meaning behind

Israel in this context?

Well, it said

that you will be called,

no longer called Jacob,

you will be called Israel

because you have

you have prevailed with God.

Right.

Right, so it's interesting

that some people would say

he wrestled with an Angel

because God Himself named him

that it's just so interesting

that they would not like

you just said it's

there in the scriptures

and we can

read it for ourselves

and really dive in.

So yeah, I just find

that all really fascinating.

Thank you

for breaking that down

and here's

another question for you, so

what does the Bible

say about Yeshua or

Jesus when He was on earth,

and how did He live

as He dwelled among people?

You know,

in Biblical times

there was an expectation

that the Messiah

would be defined

and we see this reflected

in the Gospels' understanding

of who Yeshua was,

and they record His life

and His teachings

in great detail.

And what we discover is that

and what they

they want to show us,

particularly Matthew, is that

Yeshua kept the Torah perfectly

and then they want to show us

that Yeshua's life fulfills

so many of the prophecies

written in the Old Testament

about who the Messiah would be

and what He would do.

And I love the details

even down to He'll come riding,

your King will come to you

riding on a donkey

in Zechariah.

Not only is the

place of His birth

and the manner of His birth,

the things that He would do,

but even His kingship

humble and lowly,

riding on a donkey,

and that's exactly what He does

as He comes into Jerusalem

just before His death

and His life

that would be laid down

for all humanity.

They also reveal

that He had unique gifts.

He could heal

sickness and disease.

He had authority

to cast out demons.

And here's the one

that really got

Him into trouble,

He forgave sins.

Now the whole issue

of forgiving sins

in the Jewish context

is only God forgives sins

because only God has the right

to judge the life of a man.

And it's what the

there was the healing

of the paralytic.

They bring him

this paralyzed man

and Yeshua doesn't

lay hands on him.

He doesn't pray for him.

He says, "Get up

and walk, your sins

have been forgiven."

Right.

And then when He's

accused of blasphemy,

He responds, basically

it's been done this way

so that you would know

but the Son of Man

has the power to forgive sins,

and of course, at that

moment what He's doing

is He's identifying Himself

with the Son of Man

in Daniel Chapter 7

and in Daniel Chapter 7

we read about the Son

of Man being presented

before the Ancient of Days,

and then the Son of Man

is given dominion and glory

and told that all

peoples and nations

and languages would serve Him

and that His dominion

would be everlasting,

and His Kingdom would

never be destroyed,

and alongside

that in His teaching

Yeshua appropriates

a lot of the names

and the titles

belonging to God.

For example,

I am the Good Shepherd.

And He's

taking on the name of God

is the Shepherd of Israel

and I could spend the next

two hours going on about that

but I probably better draw a

line at that point.

Well, I would

like to start wrapping up

and I think I have

an important question

and it's actually

the title of this podcast.

So Fiona is believing

in Jesus idolatry?

Clearly not

if you follow the

train of thought,

Yeshua said that

He and the Father are one

and that if you have seen

me, you have seen the Father.

And I was asked to

do a Bible study recently

for our intercessors

because there was confusion

even for these believers

in Jesus about whether

you could pray to Jesus.

And when you look

through Scripture,

you find that there were

prayers addressed to Him.

He was asked to do things.

The Holy Spirit

is asked to do things

in the New Testament,

so I can't see how

if we believe

that God is a unity,

and within that unity He has,

there is a divine miracle

that we can't, without human

logic pull apart that He is one

and yet He has the capacity

to reveal Himself as three.

My mind can't grasp it.

I don't think the greatest

theological minds can grasp it.

(Unknown),

who trained with Gamaliel

never tried to explain it.

He simply said it is.

And I've got to the point where

I stop trying to explain it

because I can't.

You know I can talk about,

you know the sun is

a physical planet,

but we experience

the sun through light

and heat

and then what we can see,

which are flames

as well as a physical planet.

So there you have this,

the planet of the sun,

able to manifest itself

in fire, heat and light.

So talk about water

oxygen and hydrogen,

steam and ice.

I'm a daughter,

but I'm also a wife

and I'm a sister.

Now, because I'm human

I can only be me

but because God is God,

He has this capacity

to allow

those different aspects

of who He is be manifest

and revealed at different times

and in different

physical spaces.

Do I understand it?

No, it is what it is.

So for someone listening

who has heard this argument,

the case you have just made,

we've talked a lot

about going back to Scripture.

What would you, where

would you point

someone to start?

Someone who still

is may be confused

or doesn't agree with you?

Where would you encourage

them to start in

trying to answer

this question for themselves?

Oh well,

that's a challenge.

I think, ultimately,

if they're willing,

one of the best things

we can do is meet together,

open the Scripture together,

ask them to read the

Scripture out loud

and give them space to

answer the question, "What do

you think

the Scripture is saying?"

Before I even attempt

to tell them.

And also that gives space

for the Holy Spirit

because the scripture itself

is a two-edged sword.

It's sharp, it's powerful,

it divides bone and marrow,

soul and spirit and

when we help someone to engage

with the Word of God, then

we can

create that space

where the Holy Spirit

will engage

with the individual, but

I do think that one

of the best things

that we can ask people to do

is begin to look

at the prophecies

about the Messiah.

One that you mentioned,

Shalom Brooklyn,

and one of the things

that we do at Shalom

Brooklyn, I know,

is that it said that

the ministry in New York

does quite often

is put out on a desk,

the translation of Isaiah 53

in multiple languages,

in Hebrew, Russian, English

and any other one

that we can find

and we ask people to

if they've got a moment

to read it and tell us,

ask the question, "Where

is this passage found?

Is it found in the Hebrew Bible

on the Christian Bible?

And who is it speaking about?"

Almost everybody

will recognize in Isaiah 53

the story of Jesus

and most Jewish

people will say,

oh that's talking about Jesus.

And so where is it found?

Oh, that must be in

the New Testament.

And what we usually do

is whip out a Hebrew

Old Testament,

turn to Isaiah 53

and go, "Look

see in your Bible.

It's

in the Hebrew Bible, right?"

And that is really powerful

when people actually

have to acknowledge that

what they've just said about

Isaiah 53 relating to Jesus.

It's so obvious

if we give people

the opportunity to look,

and so I think we

have to get Scripture

into seekers' hands.

Right.

Fiona:

Whether that's in the form of

a tract, a booklet,

free literature,

our famous book

Isaiah 53 Explained.

But any way we can,

we've got to get people,

Jewish seekers engaging

with the Word of God itself.

Now the Spirit will do

the rest, actually.

Fiona, thank you

so much for joining us.

It was really incredible

to have you join us

all the way from the UK

and I'm just really hoping

that this episode

can be an encouragement

for those who may be struggling

with this question,

and maybe it can be

an encouragement to believers

who have heard this question

from their Jewish friends

or just anybody.

But thank you for joining us

and giving us your time.

Oh, it's

been my pleasure.

Thank you so much.

“Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the

Lord been revealed?

For He grew up before Him

like a tender shoot, And

like a root

out of parched ground;

He has no stately form

or majesty That we should look

upon Him, Nor appearance

that we should be

attracted to Him.

He was despised and

forsaken of men,

A man of sorrows and acquainted

with grief;

And like one from whom men

hide their face

He was despised, and we did not

esteem Him.” Isaiah 53:1–3.

This is one of the

many Messianic prophecies

written in the Tanakh,

or Old Testament.

The verse later describes

how the Messiah bore

our griefs and sorrows,

that He was pierced

for our transgressions

and crushed for our iniquities.

And this promise was fulfilled

in the person of Yeshua—who

is the word of God,

the promise of God, made flesh.

He lived His life

on Earth

as a perfect, sinless Man–

God’s ultimate sacrifice

out of His great love for us.

Wherever you are

in your search for truth,

we pray you will

allow the Messiah

to reveal Himself to you.

If you have further questions

and wish to speak to someone,

you can email us at

info@chosenpeople.com

or call 1-888-2-YESHUA.

That's 1-888

the number 2 YESHUA.

Thank you for listening

to this week’s episode

of Our Hope, featuring

Chosen People Ministries’ staff

member Fiona Sorbala.

This episode was produced

by Nicole Vacca, and written

and edited by Grace Swee.

This episode was also

Dr.

Mitch Glaser, Kieran

Bautista, and Neal Surasky.

I’m Abe Vazquez.

Until next time.

Thanks for listening

to Our Hope.

If you like our show

and want to know more,

check out ourhopepodcast.com

or chosenpeople.com.

You can also

support our podcast

by giving today

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