Shownotes
In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Kendall Schultz, Chief People Officer at Triumph Behavior Support, to explore what it really takes for HR to move beyond a cost center and earn authority inside fast-growing, high-pressure organizations. With over 15 years of experience across venture-backed and private equity environments, Kendall shares how HR leaders can build credibility through execution, not permission, while navigating scale, risk, and constant change.
Kendall breaks down why waiting to be invited into strategy conversations no longer works for HR. Instead, she explains how people leaders must proactively identify risk, eliminate waste, influence decisions, and operate with the same rigor as product and finance teams. From finding significant cost inefficiencies to treating people operations like a product roadmap, she outlines how HR can become a true value engine for the business.
The conversation also explores the human side of authority. Kendall shares how psychological safety, ethical leadership, and transparency are not soft concepts but essential operating principles, especially during restructures, layoffs, and periods of rapid growth. She explains why HR must be present, consistent, and willing to make hard calls to build trust that scales beyond the HR function itself.
Topics Discussed:
- Reframing HR from cost center to value engine
- Earning authority through execution, not title
- Treating people operations like a product
- Finding operational inefficiencies and reducing organizational waste
- Building credibility with CEOs and founders in PE and VC environments
- Embedding psychological safety into daily operations
- Leading ethically through layoffs and restructures
- The limits and opportunities of AI in people operations
- What skills HR leaders need to stay relevant and future-proof their role
If you are an HR leader, people operator, or executive navigating scale, scrutiny, and constant pressure to prove value, this episode offers a clear, experience-backed view of how HR can earn lasting influence and relevance in the future of work.
Additional Resources:
Transcripts
Most companies don't realize that it needs to be a seat.
2
:They know they get to a certain
size that they talk to their
3
:peers in different companies.
4
:Oh, you need somebody within HR.
5
:They don't even really
know what that means.
6
:They don't know what level
of individual they need.
7
:They don't know what background
of that individual they need.
8
:And it differs depending upon
the size of your organization.
9
:If you're the right person
that's coming in with a strategic
10
:mindset, the seat is there.
11
:You just have to take it.
12
:Thomas Kunjappu: They keep
telling us that it's all over.
13
:For HR, the age of AI is upon
us, and that means HR should
14
:be prepared to be decimated.
15
:We reject that message.
16
:The future of HR won't be handed to us.
17
:Instead, it'll be defined by those
ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.
18
:Future Proof HR invites these builders to
share what they're trying, how it's going,
19
:what they've learned, and what's next.
20
:We are committed to arming HR
with the AI insights to not
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:just survive, but to thrive.
22
:Hello and welcome to the Future Proof
HR podcast, where we explore how
23
:forward-thinking HR leaders are preparing
for disruption and redefining what it
24
:means to lead people in a changing world.
25
:I'm your host, as always,
Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary.
26
:And today, I am happy to welcome in
Kendall Schultz, the Chief People
27
:Officer at Triumph Behavior Support.
28
:With 15 years of experience in high growth
environments across venture and private
29
:equity portfolio companies, Kendall
has led talent and people strategies
30
:at organizations like constellation
Software, WeWork, and Capsule.
31
:A dynamic operator who blends TA
depth with HR strategy, Kendall has
32
:built scalable systems and championed
psychological safety and delivers
33
:measurable results in complex, rapidly
changing settings, especially when
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:M&A or IPO readiness or PE value
creation is a part of the assignment.
35
:So Kendall, welcome to the podcast.
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:Kendall Schultz: Thank you.
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:Happy to be here.
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:Thomas Kunjappu: Let's go way back to the
beginning tell me about your first job
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:Kendall Schultz: I started out in the
RPO world had no idea what recruiting
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:was it was in the economic downturn of
:
41
:are really forcing you to get a job with
benefits so i ended up getting connected
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:with somebody who worked at a company
out of boston and got an offer on the
43
:spot came with benefits and signed wasn't
really sure what I was diving into, but it
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:definitely was a sink or swim environment.
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:And that's where I got my start in
recruiting and led me to where I am today.
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:Thomas Kunjappu: So that is
definitely a sink or swim environment.
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:What's been some takeaways, if any, that
you've kept alongside with you throughout
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:all these years across all these roles?
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:Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think
some of the main things is really
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:partnership with your hiring managers.
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:Obviously, I think some of the main
things is really partnership with
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:your hiring managers, obviously.
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:I think that extends all
the way into HR as well.
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:The foundation of communication and
kind of beating them to the punch.
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:I always, you know, I still
leverage this even with my team.
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:You could be doing work behind
the scenes, but if you're not
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:communicating and vocalizing it,
it's as if it's not being done.
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:People are human beings.
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:There's anxieties, right?
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:They have a boss to answer to as well.
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:So you have to be able to provide the
data and the backing of proof to what
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:you're actually doing, the work that's
being done, regardless of whether
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:or not it leads to success, right?
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:That could be anything from sourcing or
outreach and thinking outside of the box.
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:Being able to provide that communication
and that insight and tell that story is
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:only going to create a bigger bond, deeper
bond with individuals you're working with.
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:And that, I think, leveraging
partnership is where you get a
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:success in hiring in the long run.
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:Thomas Kunjappu: Okay.
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:So, Kendall, let's talk about
something that's often talked
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:about, the seat and the table.
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:When we were doing our prep
call, I remember it struck me.
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:You said that HR can't wait to be invited.
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:Yes.
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:So how do you create demand
and claim that C-suite seat?
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:Kendall Schultz: I think you have to
go in with a mindset of being a fixer
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:and a solutions-oriented individual.
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:It's an iterative department and industry
or mechanism within an organization.
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:There's always something to be done.
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:And the reason that you're brought in
is because these CEOs and founders or
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:Speaker: Credits of other departments.
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:They know there's things that need
to be done and fixed, but you can't
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:rely on them to tell you what it
is because that's not their world.
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:So you really have to come in on day
one, evaluate what is being done.
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:And I always am a firm believer that we're
deep rooted in product management to a
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:certain extent because there's a roadmap
similar to a product roadmap, right?
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:Kendall Schultz: You have to be able to
back up and look at it and say, okay,
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:what do we have here?
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:What is the highest risk,
number one, for the company?
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:What is the lift?
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:What can we do right away?
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:And let's start chipping
away at that list.
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:And essentially, what are the
building blocks off of that?
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:What is that going to lead you to so you
have to have a mindset of one at a time
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:kind of tackling but again I
think it just kind of goes back
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:to my same response to the last
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:question is you have to be the one with
communication to bring here's what's
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:wrong here's how we're going to fix
it you can't just bring problems You
99
:have to bring the solutions with it.
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:That's where you're going to
eventually get a seat at the table.
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:You have to take it.
102
:Most companies don't realize
that it needs to be a seat.
103
:They know they get to a certain
size that they talk to their
104
:peers in different companies.
105
:Oh, you need somebody within HR.
106
:They don't even really
know what that means.
107
:They don't know what level
of individual they need.
108
:They don't know what background
of that individual they need.
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:And it differs depending upon
the size of your organization.
110
:Some companies rapid grow really quickly
to 50 people and they've been okay
111
:without it, but they're looking to scale
within a year's time, 12 months to 500.
112
:What you need is not
a junior level person.
113
:So if you're the right person
that's coming in with a strategic
114
:mindset, the seat is there.
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:You just have to take it.
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:Thomas Kunjappu: So what about
the other related thing that we're
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:always fighting against, which is
this view as a cost center, right?
118
:It's like a cost sink sometimes.
119
:And especially if you take the example
that you're talking about where there's
120
:an executive team that's just, or a
CEO that's never had experience with a
121
:senior HR person before and just hiring
because they're, quote, supposed to.
122
:Yeah.
123
:Or the board tells them to.
124
:Yeah,
125
:in such a world, how
do you take that seat?
126
:And also, how do you, like, what
are the budget realities, right?
127
:If you're actually trying to
get an agenda executed on.
128
:And how do you do that?
129
:Kendall Schultz: I actually
love this question.
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:Because especially in the startup
world, would say it's not just PE.
131
:It's also in venture-backed organizations.
132
:They do look at it as zero
rate on return, right?
133
:But that's because they don't
understand the value of people.
134
:You can have the best product
or service in the world.
135
:You don't have people.
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:You don't have anything.
137
:So yeah, we're often looked at as
a support function, but we're also
138
:hiring and retaining your individual.
139
:So we technically are the highest
generating revenue department for
140
:you because if you have a sales
team, who's hiring that sales team?
141
:Who's building out their bonus structure?
142
:We are.
143
:Sometimes payroll, but in my experience,
most payroll teams are full of accounting
144
:individuals and not actual finance people.
145
:So the other thing is when you're
growing and scaling as a company,
146
:there are so many different products
out there to use internally, right?
147
:You get ads, you have
individuals reaching out to you.
148
:It happens to me all the time.
149
:I got a couple of calls
today about products.
150
:I get five emails a day about coffee
chats to try to help me do X, Y,
151
:and Z, which I'm already doing.
152
:When you don't realize that you
probably should do your research
153
:and it's like buying a car.
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:You're not going to just
go to one dealership.
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:You're going to price compare.
156
:There's ways to look at an organization.
157
:What are their current vendors?
158
:Renegotiate contracts.
159
:Leverage these vendors
against one another.
160
:You're going to have cost savings.
161
:I did it in Constellation.
162
:I put $250K back in the
budget within a month.
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:So when I look at what's the operational
cost of my team, I've already paid
164
:for myself plus for the entire
year within a 30-day time frame.
165
:And that's not counting all the
other work and things that we're
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:doing from a risk perspective.
167
:You're talking about EEOC claims.
168
:You don't have us in place.
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:You're going to get hit with those
left and right because you probably
170
:don't know the laws that are changing
constantly, the regulations, how
171
:to even terminate an employee.
172
:When an employee is wronged, when
they're terminated, the first thing
173
:they're doing is reaching out to a
resource or a lawyer and filing a claim.
174
:It might go nowhere, but that
costs you time and money in and
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:of regards to where it ends up.
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:You want to hire a lawyer to fight that?
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:They bill by the hour.
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:Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.
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:Kendall Schultz: So when I think of it
from a holistic perspective, if you do
180
:it right and your hands are in the weeds,
you are directly affecting and impacting
181
:how the budget is created and spent
with an organization, not only for your
182
:department, for the entire ecosystem.
183
:Thomas Kunjappu: So tell me what that
looks like, that ultimately really
184
:being embedded in the strategy of
the organization itself and people's
185
:strategy being downstream from that.
186
:What does that look like if
you're really operating at that
187
:level that you're imagining?
188
:It's not even a question that
you're a part of the C-suite.
189
:It's obvious that we're working on
190
:the strategy and that you have input.
191
:What does that look like?
192
:That you have input.
193
:What does that look like?
194
:How do you know that you're operating
at that level as an HR leader?
195
:Kendall Schultz: You have
to take it upon yourself.
196
:I don't think that most people in
my seat, especially I would say the
197
:older generations, it's why I always
lean towards calling it the industry
198
:is changing to people operations.
199
:HR is checking boxes and they're taking
emails and complaints and concerns and
200
:pretty much just being order takers.
201
:If you want to be a true operational
function, you have to be able to
202
:dig in to the strategies of how
the company is actually operating.
203
:There's a lot of business
strategy that comes into play
204
:when you're in a seat like mine.
205
:And it doesn't come from
anyone else in the company.
206
:You have to go in and just do it.
207
:I ask for forgiveness, not
permission, quite frankly.
208
:I like to do my homework,
bring everything together.
209
:I think data points, again,
telling the story, doing your due
210
:diligence, and then bringing that
directly to your decision maker.
211
:And what I found is, especially with a
very difficult CEO and founder who maybe
212
:doesn't like to make decisions or likes
to push things off, you have to show them
213
:the value and essentially make it so it's
their idea, which who cares who gets the
214
:credit as long as it gets done, right?
215
:That's the win-win for everybody.
216
:I think also I always aim high knowing
I want to land somewhere in the middle.
217
:It's almost like a social
engineering approach, I would
218
:say, from an advising perspective.
219
:And in my experience, it works because
you take what you can get, right?
220
:It works because you take what you can
get right and if I can get anything out
221
:of I come to you with three scenarios
and you pick the middle road because
222
:you're comfortable with it I'm okay
with that because I can build off of
223
:that and they're going to so you're
starting to spend so it's going to it's
224
:going to it's going to prove itself
225
:Thomas Kunjappu: So if you're coming
in with three options, you're thinking
226
:through how you can be successful
no matter what option ends up
227
:happening ahead of that decision.
228
:Kendall Schultz: So even if, let's
say they pick the least desirable
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:Thomas Kunjappu: decision
230
:Kendall Schultz: That's made, number
one, getting a CEO and a founder to make
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:a decision in and of itself is a win.
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:It's not a no.
233
:I don't take no for an answer
because even if it is a no, it's
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:a not right now and a maybe.
235
:And I can work with that.
236
:So if get them to buy in,
even if they're skeptical.
237
:Thomas Kunjappu: Right.
238
:Kendall Schultz: I'm so confident in
everything that I've done in my experience
239
:over the course of my career that
I'm willing to bet my position on the
240
:decisions that I'm making and presenting.
241
:And I haven't failed yet.
242
:And I know that, listen, I
know that doesn't sound very
243
:humble, but I think it's just
experience and it's people, right?
244
:I work in people.
245
:You have to be able to understand how
people operate, what makes them tick, how
246
:you can make them comfortable in making
a decision and getting that buy-in.
247
:I think every person is different, but
you have to be the person that really
248
:sits and evaluates and takes it all in.
249
:And then how do I approach this
with this person, essentially,
250
:regardless of their position?
251
:Thomas Kunjappu: It's refreshing
and it's a great attitude
252
:to have and self-confidence.
253
:So speaking of that, you mentioned it.
254
:So I'd like to, I made a
note because I'm curious.
255
:I want to dig in.
256
:How does a new HR leader find 100K in
direct cost savings, not theoretical, in
257
:their first quarter of coming into a role?
258
:How does one accomplish that?
259
:Kendall Schultz: There's
a number of things, right?
260
:So I think
261
:there's a lot.
262
:You got to look at
inefficiencies, number one.
263
:And that's time.
264
:I like to look at bandwidth.
265
:If you go dig into each department,
I want to understand the structure.
266
:Who's doing what?
267
:Who's reporting into who?
268
:Who's responsible for?
269
:What systems are they utilizing?
270
:If you have people who are sitting
around and it's very easy when
271
:you're coming in as a new person
because people are very laxed.
272
:They get set in their ways.
273
:They're comfortable.
274
:Those people tend to fly under the radar.
275
:You have to be able to bring that to
the attention of your decision makers
276
:and say, hey, we might need to evaluate
how this department's operating.
277
:And then you start seeing that they
start buying in and saying, wow,
278
:we have a lot of money waste here.
279
:Maybe we have the wrong positions.
280
:That in and of itself, you
have two people doing the same
281
:job and you don't need them.
282
:You could be hiring one person
that could be doing it and
283
:maybe neither of those people.
284
:And that's you never want
somebody to be out of a job.
285
:They're probably going to
get bored and leave anyways.
286
:So that costs you money as well.
287
:I think the secondary part of it
is digging into the vendors that
288
:you're I really believe it is digging
into the vendors that you're, I
289
:really believe it, digging into
the vendors that you're utilizing.
290
:How much are you paying?
291
:I've gone into a company and
they were paying monthly for a
292
:subscription that they've been
using for the past five years.
293
:I looked and I've led together and I was,
I evaluated that they wasted $100,000
294
:just because they were paying monthly.
295
:So it's in the details.
296
:And I think it's just, it's like
I said in the beginning, it's
297
:evaluating and understanding.
298
:You can't go in and just, the mistake
people make, I think, is day one.
299
:What am I going to change?
300
:I've seen it before.
301
:My last organization, they hired a CRO.
302
:He was very junior, paid him
a lot of money, hired a CRO.
303
:He was very junior, paid him a lot of
money, but he didn't stop and evaluate
304
:what is currently happening now.
305
:He came in super hot and
wanted to change everything.
306
:It made a complete mess.
307
:Nobody respected him.
308
:I had to have hour-long conversations with
him that took time away from my position.
309
:That's money being spent out the window.
310
:So I think it's evaluating
your current structure.
311
:And I think it really is the
vendors that you're utilizing.
312
:Thomas Kunjappu: Got it.
313
:And it's the ability to have impact
beyond just the budget that's specifically
314
:directed at HR, but actually more broadly.
315
:Yeah, that's nothing.
316
:What was that?
317
:Kendall Schultz: HR, in my
experience, never gets a budget.
318
:We're the first to be let go
in the last few brought on.
319
:So they're not going to
really give us a budget.
320
:They're going to give us the ability
to pitch things that we need.
321
:But typically, you have
to operate very lean.
322
:So,
323
:you know, you have to
create your own budget.
324
:And I think that's where
my mindset comes from this.
325
:Because if we don't have
one, how can I get one?
326
:Thomas Kunjappu: And I've talked a lot of
HR leaders where there's teams of one or
327
:teams of three, where the ratio, it just
continues on for a while, or really what
328
:you have are a recruiting team internally.
329
:And there's no one else thinking
about anything else, which I think
330
:is what you're advocating for around
like strategic thinking around
331
:creating an HR team that's able
to deliver past the administrative
332
:elements or just getting people hired.
333
:It's tricky.
334
:And we've been talking a lot about
all the different dynamics, almost
335
:the internal negotiation dynamics
that you need to master to be
336
:able to get to these outcomes.
337
:So we've been talking about, I don't know,
efficiency, redundancies, and like how you
338
:need to really be almost like ruthless in
getting, finding and executing on budget.
339
:But something that struck me when we
were preparing was your focus on the
340
:flip side on psychological safety and
embedding that into your operating model
341
:and systematically into the organization.
342
:So can you tell me a little bit
about what that means for you?
343
:Kendall Schultz: I think everything that
we do, because it's so people-oriented,
344
:it's embedded in psychology.
345
:You have to understand people.
346
:You can't speak to one person one
way and another person another way.
347
:Everyone's got triggers.
348
:But I think if you lead with a
psychological approach, you're
349
:cultivating an environment where
people, one, do feel safe and they're
350
:more willing to open up and actually
come to you, which is what we want.
351
:Right.
352
:We want to be a place where people are
coming to us because we are the HR team.
353
:We're here for people.
354
:Companies oftentimes, and this
is again embedded in HR, HR
355
:is typically for the company.
356
:People operations is for the best
interest of the employee and the company.
357
:So we sit on that line.
358
:It takes a lot of work to
develop psychological safety
359
:within an organization.
360
:You have to communicate and develop trust.
361
:And again, in my last company, I would
say I came in and there was none.
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:People were terrified.
363
:They did not.
364
:They thought that if they went to
HR, they were on the chopping block.
365
:went to the root core of it.
366
:And essentially, when my CEO
was out of town, pulled the town
367
:hall and spoke to everybody.
368
:And essentially, I have
an open door policy.
369
:There is no repercussion for you
coming forward for anything on
370
:your own behalf or somebody else's.
371
:And quite frankly, this
led to some very big wins.
372
:And then if you have one person coming
to you, they have a good experience and
373
:you provide a resolution or outcome.
374
:They're going to tell their great
experience of that to their peers.
375
:You're going to start developing
a culture that just innately has
376
:psychological safety embedded in it.
377
:Thomas Kunjappu: Ah, so you're talking
about the concept of, instead of being
378
:the hall monitor, having someone who's
open, having a posture that is open for
379
:employees to feel like they can actually
reveal the core of what's on their mind.
380
:Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I
think that, here's the thing,
381
:is they're adults, right?
382
:If you treat people like an adult,
they will either rise to the
383
:occasion or they won't, right?
384
:We're not there to reprimand.
385
:We're there to reinforce policies and
procedures and develop them, obviously.
386
:But to your point, like,
we are not homeowners.
387
:These are adults.
388
:If there's things peer-to-peer that can be
resolved between one another, you want to
389
:give them the tools to be able to do that.
390
:They need to be able
to stand on their own.
391
:And some people would say
you're developing an environment
392
:where you're not needed.
393
:But I think that they're
tied to the culture.
394
:They are the culture.
395
:So they're going to be the ones that
you want to change and ones that
396
:are going to give you insight as
to what's wrong with the culture as
397
:it stands or what's great about it.
398
:You're opening the door
to have them have a voice.
399
:And I think that's extremely important.
400
:And it ties for attention, obviously.
401
:Thomas Kunjappu: Right.
402
:If you feel like you can
be open and honest, right?
403
:But the nuance there is I thought
404
:it would be more associated with
how embedding that feeling towards
405
:your peers, your manager, and
leadership more broadly, as opposed
406
:to the posture specifically with HR.
407
:But is that like a step along the way?
408
:Is that a conjecture?
409
:Kendall Schultz: Your peers and
your leaders, quite frankly,
410
:you manage up, even your
411
:CEO.
412
:It's no different with a junior
level employee than somebody
413
:who's also in a C-suite with me.
414
:They're dealing with their own things.
415
:It just might be at a different level of,
okay, they're managing people and their
416
:problems might be a little bit different.
417
:But I think holistically, it's all
tied to the same fundamental approach.
418
:Thomas Kunjappu: But I guess I wonder,
what are the limits of the leverage as
419
:an HR function in creating this concept
of psychological safety within the
420
:context of an employee's relationship
with their manager and with their
421
:peers and with their C-suite, as
opposed to their relationship with HR.
422
:So I think in the example, you're talking
about how it's important to ensure that
423
:folks can feel like they can come to
people operation, let's call it, and
424
:there's psychological safety there.
425
:But how do you take that and translate
that into the day-to-day life?
426
:People aren't talking to HR all day.
427
:They're working with each other.
428
:So how does that, how do you translate
that into just the reformation or
429
:evolution of the culture, which
has lived without you in the room?
430
:Kendall Schultz: That's the thing
though, if they've never had
431
:that, you have to be in the room.
432
:Because they don't have the
tools or the skills, right?
433
:So if you're bringing somebody who's
reporting into a manager and a manager
434
:into a room, you have to be there
to help almost mediate and get them
435
:to a point where they can then take
those skills and repeat them on their
436
:own or build off of them and then it
seminates across the organization, right?
437
:But you can't do it on a piece of paper.
438
:You can't do it in a policy.
439
:You can't do it through an email or Slack.
440
:You have to be involved.
441
:In my experience, if you're not, you're
only sweeping things out of the rug
442
:because you're leaving them to their
own devices and not everybody's equipped
443
:to understand the psychological safety
approach or even what that means.
444
:I can tell a manager, hey, you
should do this, try this and this.
445
:Okay, they might go and do it, but
maybe their direct report has a
446
:problem with their tone, and their
tone was still that way in them.
447
:You see what I'm saying?
448
:So you have to get to the root problem and
provide awareness on both sides so that
449
:they can come together and move forward.
450
:Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, it sounds like
you're really advocating for setting
451
:examples and being consistent in setting
examples throughout the organization.
452
:And then that can slow down.
453
:Slowly start to snowball into shifting
the culture forward, especially in
454
:environments where you have folks
without a lot of experience in
455
:either management or people dynamics
or a real focus on it, right?
456
:Yeah.
457
:And speaking of that, it happens a lot.
458
:Kendall Schultz: There's a lot of,
let's promote this person because
459
:we don't want to lose them, but
they have no experience in managing.
460
:There's no training oftentimes.
461
:So I've had to advocate for LMS
systems, which legally you're
462
:supposed to have as oftentimes.
463
:So I've had to advocate for LMS
systems, which legally you're
464
:supposed to have as well.
465
:So you reinforce it with certain
tools on your side, but I really do
466
:think it's human to human and it's
providing that support and guidance.
467
:Thomas Kunjappu: So
468
:this is all happening in the
context of, I would say, whipsaw
469
:environments potentially, right?
470
:Hyper growth, rifts, rehiring, HR
471
:teams themselves being the first
ones to be let go and then brought
472
:back when the times are good.
473
:There's a lot of whipsawing
happening, right?
474
:And you've been in so many
environments like that.
475
:Do you have a playbook in this
context that helps protect culture and
476
:momentum when there's so much whipsaw?
477
:Kendall Schultz: I think it's
a fundamental characteristic
478
:by nature, essentially.
479
:I wouldn't say it's a
playbook that I follow.
480
:I think it's just a moral
compass, essentially, based on
481
:any environment I'm going into.
482
:But I do think it's, I've often been told
483
:that I advocate to the fullest, right?
484
:So I make sure that I speak up.
485
:I continue to hammer the problem
home until people understand and
486
:see that there needs to be change
or something needs to be addressed.
487
:There was, I'll tell you, there
was an incident, for example,
488
:there really was no culture.
489
:It was a very negative culture.
490
:It was fear culture, I would say,
in an organization I worked in.
491
:This employee came to me because she
had been promoted to a marketing team.
492
:She was going to have to work with the
Chief of the Design marketing department.
493
:Come to find out, this was her first job.
494
:She had been there for two years.
495
:She started during COVID.
496
:They had an outing, apparently,
and this was prior to my start,
497
:where, you know, he made some
suggestive, inappropriate comments.
498
:And it was continual throughout the entire
event that they were kind of team bonding.
499
:She reported it and nothing was done.
500
:Now, fast forward to her promotion,
she now has to sit in a room
501
:and work with this individual.
502
:She's very uncomfortable.
503
:The fact that she even stayed
is insane because there's also
504
:the...
505
:She can sue or do something about
it there's a three-year statute of
506
:limitations and she's still working
there so it hasn't even started yet the
507
:second I found out about this got up
out of my seat which if you're in person
508
:I think I ran around my office because
you have to have a presence I went
509
:directly into my CEO and Founder's office
and pretty much laid it on the line.
510
:And from a moral perspective, essentially
said, if he's not let go, I will quit.
511
:And he was terminated the next day.
512
:And he had been working
there for seven years.
513
:This has been a fantastic
conversation so far.
514
:If you haven't already done so,
make sure to join our community.
515
:We are building a network of the
most forward-thinking, HR and
516
:people, operational professionals
who are defining the future.
517
:I will personally be sharing
news and ideas around how we
518
:can all thrive in the age of ai.
519
:You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary
520
:community.
521
:Now back to the show.
522
:Thomas Kunjappu: Oh, wow.
523
:Okay.
524
:Okay.
525
:So that takes a clear moral compass.
526
:So this is you're mentioning
in this case where, I mean,
527
:there's something like proactive.
528
:Arguably, it's in peacetime.
529
:Right.
530
:But it's a it's an example of that.
531
:Yeah.
532
:I think what is really tough for so
many employees is like in these times
533
:of whipsaw where they're like there's
a certain way that we're working.
534
:But then the reality is all
of a sudden there's a riff.
535
:Right.
536
:And there's like this potential
like breach of trust systematically,
537
:which is really hard regain.
538
:I think many of our listeners
have been through that
539
:on different sides of that.
540
:And no one has empathy, let's
call it for HR leaders as they're
541
:like executing through that.
542
:But this is a really tough example.
543
:But then on top of that, when it's
happening systematically in the
544
:organization, how does that ethical
and moral compass, how does that
545
:guide you in these situations?
546
:Kendall Schultz: I think
I've been through a lot.
547
:I've had to lead and charge a
lot of risks in the office and
548
:in restructurings, essentially.
549
:And you can use either term
interchangeably, obviously.
550
:But I think the most important
part is you need to do right by the
551
:individuals that you're letting go.
552
:So it's dependent upon, let's say,
you also have, there's also situations
553
:from a state perspective, if you let
go of a certain percentage, you are
554
:required by law to give garden leave.
555
:Now, if not, and let's say it's just
under the gun and you can do what you
556
:want, and I don't say me doing what I
want, but the CEO and founder who's making
557
:essentially this choice and decision and
then handing it over for us to execute.
558
:Right.
559
:I'd like to sit down and essentially
say, let's build out a model here.
560
:OK, so how long have
the structure and tiers?
561
:This person's been here a year.
562
:What is fair?
563
:I know that realistically,
they're probably not going
564
:to have a job for 30 days.
565
:And then in this economy,
it's probably even worse.
566
:Right.
567
:So if they've been with us for
two years, let's give them two
568
:months, things of that nature.
569
:And there's some negotiating
in there as well.
570
:I present a plan essentially
before anything's even executed to
571
:ensure that we're doing right by
the people that we're letting go.
572
:That's number one.
573
:Secondarily, you need to get in
front of the employee population
574
:and you need to calm their nerves.
575
:I think it needs to come from the top.
576
:I think it needs to come
from your HR leader.
577
:And I also think it
needs to be reinforced by
578
:your department leaders and managers.
579
:Right.
580
:So you also have to give them the tools
for people who are going to come to
581
:them so that they alleviate some of that
what am I next, that nervous energy and
582
:anxiety that comes along with seeing
your peer no longer sitting next to you.
583
:It's transparency and
it's open communication.
584
:And you're going to have people who it's
going to impact their performance, right?
585
:So it takes a little bit more of
handholding with those leaders to ensure
586
:that people aren't falling behind.
587
:That is an empathetic approach.
588
:And there's, again, a lot
of psychology behind that.
589
:People are not just
coming in and operating.
590
:They do have a personal life.
591
:They do have feelings.
592
:They do have things that are impacting
their day-to-day that are outside
593
:of those walls of that office.
594
:So I think just being mindful of it and
being a human being about it, although it
595
:is difficult and it's a business decision
and it has to be done, I also like to
596
:be a source for people that we let go.
597
:I will be a reference.
598
:I will help network with you to, if
I hear of a job, I will connect you.
599
:I will push you forward to agencies and
things that I know exist that I have
600
:contacts to help you find another job.
601
:I don't know that everybody
does that, but I do.
602
:Thomas Kunjappu: Thank you for going
through some of these examples of how
603
:you might tactically deal with something
that so many of us have been a part of
604
:in the last few years with the whipsaw of
the COVID boom and end of zero interest
605
:rate, end of ZERP and all the rest, right?
606
:Kendall Schultz: There's
607
:the ups in
608
:that.
609
:Thomas Kunjappu: We've all lived it.
610
:But through that, I think one of
the things I definitely wanted to
611
:talk to you about was the concept
of HR operations as a product.
612
:So you've been talking about that.
613
:And I'm very curious because my own
background is in product management.
614
:So tell me about how you think about the
service or the product that you offer
615
:and how that metaphor is useful for you.
616
:Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think I like
to think of HR as an iceberg, right?
617
:People only see the tip.
618
:There's so much that goes into
operating an organization,
619
:building out an organization,
which by association we are doing.
620
:You have to look forward and
align with the company goals.
621
:And if a company doesn't have goals,
622
:you have push them to understand what they
are, bring the right people into the room.
623
:What is everybody working on?
624
:Where are we working towards?
625
:What is it going to take to get there?
626
:Because with that information, I can
then evaluate, okay, what do we need to
627
:do and what do we need to prepare for?
628
:So a company changes at 100 people.
629
:It changes again at 200.
630
:It changes again at
500 and again at 1,000.
631
:The way you operate and the things
you have in place today are not
632
:necessarily going to work tomorrow.
633
:So you have to anticipate,
just like a product,
634
:where do we need to innovate and improve?
635
:And when do we need to do it?
636
:I push my team and I get pushed
back sometimes until they
637
:understand where I'm coming from.
638
:To do the extra work now, it might not be
needed right now, but it sure is going to
639
:be helpful and useful for us to build off
of what we're going to need to do next.
640
:So if you do the work on that
now and you had some of that
641
:prep, it goes a lot faster.
642
:You can get business decisions a lot
faster, build business cases a lot faster.
643
:You're not sitting and
digging for the data.
644
:I'll use Greenhouse for an example.
645
:Right now, we want to get to a point
where we can proactively understand
646
:how many people we need to hire.
647
:We're moving into North Carolina.
648
:I put greenhouse in place because
they have the best data in the market
649
:if you set up your product properly.
650
:I leverage that to show tracking and
trends of what is our activity, where
651
:are our bottlenecks, where are our gaps.
652
:That's going to lead you into, okay,
what is our objective in our plan?
653
:How many people is it going to take?
654
:We can actually build out a timeline,
essentially, of not only how many people
655
:do I need on my team now to be able to
fill the needs of this business in a
656
:specific amount of time, but we can also
agree to a certain number of hardwoods.
657
:Based on the productivity
that we've had in the past.
658
:It's just like a product.
659
:You're looking back at how it's
evolved and how it's been adopted,
660
:where there are the gaps in how
you can tackle and improve those.
661
:We are a product team to a certain extent.
662
:Our product's just people.
663
:It really is.
664
:Thomas Kunjappu: Every product team
then is being impacted and is thinking
665
:about how AI will come into the adoption
loop or into the processes and the
666
:systems that they've put in place.
667
:How do you think about that
within this, especially with this
668
:concept of HR ops as a product?
669
:Kendall Schultz: It's funny
because when I left my last job, AI
670
:really took off in a way that had
never really impacted my industry ever.
671
:We really operate.
672
:Not much has changed, really,
other than the fundamentals
673
:and how we approach things.
674
:But the tools that we've had
have consistently been the same.
675
:been a department or industry that
not many people have paid attention
676
:to and from a toolage perspective.
677
:Not many people have paid attention
to and from a toolage perspective.
678
:I would say about June of last
year, July, August is really when,
679
:okay, hey, AI can hire for you,
so you don't need humans anymore.
680
:These products are brand new, and you're
putting them with people that can sure
681
:can implement a system, but have never
implemented something like this before.
682
:It's enablement tool, which
means you still need human
683
:beings to be able to operate it.
684
:Now, if you ask anybody, the market
was a mess because you have a number
685
:of people applying with a system that's
new that hasn't really had a chance
686
:to operate and collect the proper
data, knocking out almost everybody
687
:before it even hits a real person.
688
:So you have jobs that
are not getting filled.
689
:That's churning and burning cash.
690
:You have people getting burnt out
and leaving positions because of it.
691
:And now, okay, wait, maybe we
need one recruiter and they're
692
:sourcing the same people.
693
:So talk about money ways.
694
:Now, do I think AI is good?
695
:A hundred percent.
696
:I think we can leverage
it in a number of ways.
697
:I think about sourcing automation.
698
:People are out there.
699
:If we can put in keywords and locate
individuals, I'm all for that.
700
:And put them into a pool, into the
ATS, scrape and source and do all of
701
:that, that takes time away from my
people that they have to go on LinkedIn
702
:and search in Boolean strings, right?
703
:We've been working on
Boolean strings for decades.
704
:Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.
705
:Kendall Schultz: So I think it's
something that's going to be important,
706
:and I think it's going to
change our industry a good bit.
707
:But I think the businesses need to
understand the impact of it, and I think
708
:the companies that are selling it need
to understand what they're actually
709
:pitching because it can be detrimental.
710
:And we've seen that over
the past 10, 12 months.
711
:Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, I've heard
this narrative, not narrative, but
712
:just like this perspective from a
lot of operators that the AI vendors
713
:are just beating us over the head
with AI this and that and everything.
714
:Is going to change.
715
:And effectively, it's a landscape where
there's a lot of over-promising happening,
716
:which I think is what you're saying.
717
:But then you didn't mention, though,
that there's some future where
718
:there can be maybe some of that
can happen, but at least for now,
719
:you need to be, there are elements.
720
:So you specifically called out sourcing as
an element where you actually see value.
721
:So have there been actually any
integrations or implementations
722
:that you can speak to already that
right now you feel are already
723
:starting to make improvements and add
efficiencies to your team and workflows?
724
:Kendall Schultz: Yeah.
725
:So, again, I could be a
promoter of Greenhouse.
726
:They are tried and true.
727
:And they actually acquired a company I'm
at a loss for the name of it right now.
728
:But they actually already had sourcing
automation built into their system.
729
:So it was an offering that they
did their due diligence on,
730
:purchased the organization and
built it right into their system.
731
:It's phenomenal because it can scrape
LinkedIn and can do certain things.
732
:But I do think that there's still
room for improvement, obviously.
733
:I think there's a lot of room
where AI can come into play.
734
:I would love to see it tackle
like career fairs and events.
735
:My team's at a career fair
right now in New York City.
736
:Maybe we can do something with AI that
allows us to attract candidates as opposed
737
:to the traditional marketing aspects.
738
:I'd love to be able to do that
through a platform because
739
:it is very manual right now.
740
:So that marketing landscape
hasn't changed a whole lot.
741
:But there's, you know,
there is a way to do it.
742
:I'm not an AI expert by any means.
743
:It's really not my forte.
744
:But as an end user, look, I like ChatGPT.
745
:I'll write my emails, plop it in,
make sure that it comes out right.
746
:So it is a useful tool if
it's in the right hands.
747
:Thomas Kunjappu: So let's talk
about those hands and how they
748
:may need to evolve over time.
749
:So if you had to look ahead a
little bit for the HR function
750
:itself, and maybe there's some
over-promising with AI recruiters.
751
:But across all the different use cases
and types of programs that we run in
752
:the function, there's potential for at
least parts of it for AI to take over.
753
:So then if you step back and think about
your team or teams like yours, or in PE
754
:or VC-backed environments that are, I
don't know, growth-focused and need to
755
:be focused on being lean, what do you
think is going to be demanded more of from
756
:the HR and people operations function?
757
:And are there things that are going
to be demanded less of in the future?
758
:Kendall Schultz: That's a tough question,
quite frankly, because I still believe
759
:that most organizations still don't
understand HR or people operations,
760
:whichever you want to call at this point.
761
:They demand whatever you're
willing to give them.
762
:I've been in seats where I was hungry
763
:and I I was hungry and I tackled
everything and next thing you
764
:know I'm doing payroll systems
and I'm handling green cards.
765
:Opening entities in
766
:Dubai.
767
:I'm handling office management.
768
:I've had to take a step back after that
769
:to essentially say okay, this is
what we do and what we don't do.
770
:There's a lot of education that is
needed, I think, around what HR's
771
:functionality is and what we offer
and what we're supposed to be doing.
772
:Because we're looked at
as a support function.
773
:And if this team can't do
it, we'll give it to the HR.
774
:They'll figure it out.
775
:So I really don't think less
is going to be demanded of us.
776
:I think it's more of education and
boundaries in terms of holding other
777
:departments and teams accountable
and teams accountable to not
778
:hand off work because I think
that happens quite frequently.
779
:They pass the buck, especially in
PE-backed companies because you're
780
:walking into an organization where
there's never been somebody who's
781
:actually had recruiting experience.
782
:So they're hiring on a whim.
783
:I like this person.
784
:They're great.
785
:So you have, again, had a whole
team that I was working with
786
:that was all in accounting.
787
:They had zero finance experience.
788
:There was not a finance team.
789
:So we had to hire the right people.
790
:I think it starts with hiring the right
people for your HR team and putting that
791
:as a focus, because it ties in there.
792
:We've talked about culture, retention.
793
:I know we veered off a little bit AI,
but I think it has nothing to do with AI.
794
:I think it really, we're not there yet.
795
:I think people just need it.
796
:Thomas Kunjappu: So then,
yeah, let's talk about that.
797
:What skills matter most for HR
over the next couple of years?
798
:Is there anything that's becoming even
more central and important to the role?
799
:If I were reflecting what you're just
saying, it's just like the ability to
800
:be an ambassador and like selling the
role itself and like talking about what
801
:to expect and not expect confidently.
802
:But yeah, tell me what you think is
going to be what's going to really
803
:matter in terms of skill sets.
804
:Kendall Schultz: In
805
:my space need to develop that
approach because we need to band
806
:together to start changing the
landscape within these organizations.
807
:It's very individualized.
808
:I can step into a role in a
company and I'm working one way.
809
:My peer can step into a role
in a different company and he
810
:or she's working another way.
811
:So I think we need to set a precedent
and I think we need to have a voice
812
:and we need to be able to show
that we are an industry in a vital
813
:department that is needed in companies.
814
:I think that message needs to be
spread across the landscape of PEs
815
:and VC-backed growing organizations.
816
:change that.
817
:We have a lot of work to
do just ourselves, I think.
818
:And it comes from us and networking and
getting together and knowledge sharing.
819
:tap into my network and I want to
know how somebody's handling this.
820
:I want to understand what trials
and tribulations they're dealing
821
:with and how they've tackled it.
822
:I think that's really where it starts.
823
:It starts with us and it starts with
developing a message and again, having a
824
:seat at the table holistically, I think.
825
:The C-suite, yeah, we're part of
the C-suite, but does everybody
826
:recognize that within an organization?
827
:No, not always.
828
:So we're at the baseline, I
think, of the work is there.
829
:The skills are there.
830
:It's recognizing the vital of
our department and our role.
831
:Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, I'm
almost translating that in my
832
:mind is like negotiation skills.
833
:Like you're basically negotiating
the rationale behind your role and
834
:what you're doing day-to-day in your
department and resetting in many
835
:cases what that actually is for the
C-suite that you're collaborating with.
836
:Because even if they're hiring a
co-C-suite member, they might not have
837
:the experience of working with someone
at that level with the new way of working
838
:where you actually can be strategic and
be a leverage point for the organization.
839
:And often many people are hiring for,
because like you said, they're supposed
840
:to, they're told that they're supposed to.
841
:And then the real outcomes that they're
focused on is, okay, I guess they
842
:can run the compliance things that
we need and then they can go and try
843
:to help us hire a bunch of people.
844
:But then putting those pieces together
is not necessarily something people are
845
:naturally thinking about or asking for,
but that's the gap that you need to
846
:discover on your own if that exists and
then go ahead and jump into that, right?
847
:Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think there's
a combination, and it just light
848
:bulb went off my head a little bit,
with when they're told that they
849
:need to hire somebody, again, as
I mentioned, it's, okay, can I get
850
:a person at this level, like three
years of experience making $80,000?
851
:They don't understand what they even
need, which is, again, they're calling
852
:them Head of People, or they're
calling them Chief People Officers,
853
:but they're three years out of school.
854
:And they're like, why aren't they?
855
:They can't do this.
856
:There needs to be education within our
space that there are people out there at a
857
:senior level that have years of experience
that have been through the trials and
858
:tribulations and can share the successes
of why you need to hire and invest in
859
:somebody more senior because you're
just putting a band-aid on the bullet
860
:wound to a certain extent with hiring
somebody who's junior and expecting them
861
:to do everything that this role entails.
862
:So again, I think it's education
and helping them understand
863
:what the job description is.
864
:Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, so then as we
close out here, Kendall, if you're
865
:talking directly to your peers, other
hR leaders, and for what really matters
866
:for the function as we're trying to
future-proof hR and people operations,
867
:is there a message that you have or
something that comes to mind that
868
:you would share with your peers?
869
:Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think
we all face no's and we're
870
:fighting uphill battle every day.
871
:But I think the more that we push
back and show the worth and value of
872
:what we do, that's going to change
the landscape and the mindsets of
873
:leaders, CEOs and founders, regardless
of what industry they're in,
874
:regardless of what space they're in.
875
:We need to start stepping up
in a way that we're not looking
876
:at protecting our job security.
877
:I think that's, I lead with that.
878
:Quite frankly, I put myself on
the chopping block to ensure
879
:that things are done right.
880
:We can't be afraid that
we're going to lose our job.
881
:We have to create the space and
you won't lose your job if we're
882
:all doing things that we should
be doing and advocating employees
883
:that we're supposed to be serving.
884
:Thomas Kunjappu: I think that's
a great a place as any to leave
885
:the conversation, Kendall.
886
:Let's extol everyone out there to have
the courage to do what you probably
887
:know is right and just lean in there and
make the case for what you want for the
888
:organization as well as your function.
889
:And we can move beyond a fear-based
thinking, which I think is prevalent
890
:actually at this particular moment
with a confluence of factors, with
891
:the economy, with the hiring cycle
that we're generally in with the
892
:labor market, as well as AI coming in.
893
:But thank you.
894
:So I think it's a very
timely conversation.
895
:As many folks out there who
are listening are looking to
896
:future-proof their organizations,
as well as their HR functions.
897
:And this is a bit of a roadmap, I think.
898
:Some ideas there about
how you can stay relevant.
899
:And it'll really stay with me, the
concept of educating your C-suite, right?
900
:Educating your peers within your function
about what you can and cannot do, but
901
:leaning into as many things as possible.
902
:And thank you for all these examples
with the level of specificity at which
903
:you need to be actually engaged to
actually get that seat at the table.
904
:So with all that said,
thank you again to Kendall.
905
:And for everyone out there,
good luck as you're on your own
906
:journeys to future-proof your
907
:organizations and the function overall.
908
:I'll see you on the next one.
909
:Bye now.
910
:Thanks for joining us on this
episode of Future Proof HR.
911
:If you like the discussion, make
sure you leave us a five star
912
:review on the platform you're
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913
:Or share this with a friend or colleague
who may find value in the message.
914
:See you next time as we keep our pulse on
how we can all thrive in the age on AI.
