In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Kendall Schultz, Chief People Officer at Triumph Behavior Support, to explore what it really takes for HR to move beyond a cost center and earn authority inside fast-growing, high-pressure organizations. With over 15 years of experience across venture-backed and private equity environments, Kendall shares how HR leaders can build credibility through execution, not permission, while navigating scale, risk, and constant change.

Kendall breaks down why waiting to be invited into strategy conversations no longer works for HR. Instead, she explains how people leaders must proactively identify risk, eliminate waste, influence decisions, and operate with the same rigor as product and finance teams. From finding significant cost inefficiencies to treating people operations like a product roadmap, she outlines how HR can become a true value engine for the business.

The conversation also explores the human side of authority. Kendall shares how psychological safety, ethical leadership, and transparency are not soft concepts but essential operating principles, especially during restructures, layoffs, and periods of rapid growth. She explains why HR must be present, consistent, and willing to make hard calls to build trust that scales beyond the HR function itself.

Topics Discussed:

1. Reframing HR from cost center to value engine
2. Earning authority through execution, not title
3. Treating people operations like a product
4. Finding operational inefficiencies and reducing organizational waste
5. Building credibility with CEOs and founders in PE and VC environments
6. Embedding psychological safety into daily operations
7. Leading ethically through layoffs and restructures
8. The limits and opportunities of AI in people operations
9. What skills HR leaders need to stay relevant and future-proof their role

If you are an HR leader, people operator, or executive navigating scale, scrutiny, and constant pressure to prove value, this episode offers a clear, experience-backed view of how HR can earn lasting influence and relevance in the future of work.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Kendall Schultz on LinkedIn

Most companies don't realize that it needs to be a seat.

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They know they get to a certain

size that they talk to their

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peers in different companies.

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Oh, you need somebody within HR.

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They don't even really

know what that means.

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They don't know what level

of individual they need.

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They don't know what background

of that individual they need.

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And it differs depending upon

the size of your organization.

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If you're the right person

that's coming in with a strategic

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mindset, the seat is there.

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You just have to take it.

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Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Hello and welcome to the Future Proof

HR podcast, where we explore how

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forward-thinking HR leaders are preparing

for disruption and redefining what it

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means to lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, as always,

Thomas Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary.

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And today, I am happy to welcome in

Kendall Schultz, the Chief People

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Officer at Triumph Behavior Support.

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With 15 years of experience in high growth

environments across venture and private

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equity portfolio companies, Kendall

has led talent and people strategies

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at organizations like constellation

Software, WeWork, and Capsule.

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A dynamic operator who blends TA

depth with HR strategy, Kendall has

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built scalable systems and championed

psychological safety and delivers

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measurable results in complex, rapidly

changing settings, especially when

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M&A or IPO readiness or PE value

creation is a part of the assignment.

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So Kendall, welcome to the podcast.

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Kendall Schultz: Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Let's go way back to the

beginning tell me about your first job

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Kendall Schultz: I started out in the

RPO world had no idea what recruiting

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was it was in the economic downturn of

2011 as you could imagine your parents

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are really forcing you to get a job with

benefits so i ended up getting connected

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with somebody who worked at a company

out of boston and got an offer on the

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spot came with benefits and signed wasn't

really sure what I was diving into, but it

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definitely was a sink or swim environment.

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And that's where I got my start in

recruiting and led me to where I am today.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So that is

definitely a sink or swim environment.

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What's been some takeaways, if any, that

you've kept alongside with you throughout

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all these years across all these roles?

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Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think

some of the main things is really

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partnership with your hiring managers.

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Obviously, I think some of the main

things is really partnership with

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your hiring managers, obviously.

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I think that extends all

the way into HR as well.

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The foundation of communication and

kind of beating them to the punch.

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I always, you know, I still

leverage this even with my team.

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You could be doing work behind

the scenes, but if you're not

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communicating and vocalizing it,

it's as if it's not being done.

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People are human beings.

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There's anxieties, right?

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They have a boss to answer to as well.

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So you have to be able to provide the

data and the backing of proof to what

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you're actually doing, the work that's

being done, regardless of whether

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or not it leads to success, right?

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That could be anything from sourcing or

outreach and thinking outside of the box.

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Being able to provide that communication

and that insight and tell that story is

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only going to create a bigger bond, deeper

bond with individuals you're working with.

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And that, I think, leveraging

partnership is where you get a

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success in hiring in the long run.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Okay.

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So, Kendall, let's talk about

something that's often talked

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about, the seat and the table.

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When we were doing our prep

call, I remember it struck me.

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You said that HR can't wait to be invited.

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Yes.

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So how do you create demand

and claim that C-suite seat?

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Kendall Schultz: I think you have to

go in with a mindset of being a fixer

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and a solutions-oriented individual.

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It's an iterative department and industry

or mechanism within an organization.

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There's always something to be done.

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And the reason that you're brought in

is because these CEOs and founders or

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Speaker: Credits of other departments.

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They know there's things that need

to be done and fixed, but you can't

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rely on them to tell you what it

is because that's not their world.

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So you really have to come in on day

one, evaluate what is being done.

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And I always am a firm believer that we're

deep rooted in product management to a

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certain extent because there's a roadmap

similar to a product roadmap, right?

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Kendall Schultz: You have to be able to

back up and look at it and say, okay,

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what do we have here?

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What is the highest risk,

number one, for the company?

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What is the lift?

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What can we do right away?

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And let's start chipping

away at that list.

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And essentially, what are the

building blocks off of that?

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What is that going to lead you to so you

have to have a mindset of one at a time

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kind of tackling but again I

think it just kind of goes back

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to my same response to the last

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question is you have to be the one with

communication to bring here's what's

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wrong here's how we're going to fix

it you can't just bring problems You

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have to bring the solutions with it.

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That's where you're going to

eventually get a seat at the table.

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You have to take it.

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Most companies don't realize

that it needs to be a seat.

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They know they get to a certain

size that they talk to their

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peers in different companies.

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Oh, you need somebody within HR.

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They don't even really

know what that means.

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They don't know what level

of individual they need.

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They don't know what background

of that individual they need.

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And it differs depending upon

the size of your organization.

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Some companies rapid grow really quickly

to 50 people and they've been okay

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without it, but they're looking to scale

within a year's time, 12 months to 500.

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What you need is not

a junior level person.

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So if you're the right person

that's coming in with a strategic

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mindset, the seat is there.

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You just have to take it.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So what about

the other related thing that we're

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always fighting against, which is

this view as a cost center, right?

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It's like a cost sink sometimes.

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And especially if you take the example

that you're talking about where there's

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an executive team that's just, or a

CEO that's never had experience with a

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senior HR person before and just hiring

because they're, quote, supposed to.

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Yeah.

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Or the board tells them to.

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Yeah,

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in such a world, how

do you take that seat?

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And also, how do you, like, what

are the budget realities, right?

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If you're actually trying to

get an agenda executed on.

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And how do you do that?

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Kendall Schultz: I actually

love this question.

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Because especially in the startup

world, would say it's not just PE.

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It's also in venture-backed organizations.

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They do look at it as zero

rate on return, right?

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But that's because they don't

understand the value of people.

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You can have the best product

or service in the world.

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You don't have people.

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You don't have anything.

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So yeah, we're often looked at as

a support function, but we're also

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hiring and retaining your individual.

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So we technically are the highest

generating revenue department for

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you because if you have a sales

team, who's hiring that sales team?

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Who's building out their bonus structure?

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We are.

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Sometimes payroll, but in my experience,

most payroll teams are full of accounting

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individuals and not actual finance people.

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So the other thing is when you're

growing and scaling as a company,

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there are so many different products

out there to use internally, right?

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You get ads, you have

individuals reaching out to you.

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It happens to me all the time.

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I got a couple of calls

today about products.

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I get five emails a day about coffee

chats to try to help me do X, Y,

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and Z, which I'm already doing.

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When you don't realize that you

probably should do your research

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and it's like buying a car.

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You're not going to just

go to one dealership.

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You're going to price compare.

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There's ways to look at an organization.

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What are their current vendors?

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Renegotiate contracts.

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Leverage these vendors

against one another.

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You're going to have cost savings.

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I did it in Constellation.

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I put $250K back in the

budget within a month.

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So when I look at what's the operational

cost of my team, I've already paid

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for myself plus for the entire

year within a 30-day time frame.

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And that's not counting all the

other work and things that we're

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doing from a risk perspective.

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You're talking about EEOC claims.

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You don't have us in place.

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You're going to get hit with those

left and right because you probably

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don't know the laws that are changing

constantly, the regulations, how

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to even terminate an employee.

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When an employee is wronged, when

they're terminated, the first thing

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they're doing is reaching out to a

resource or a lawyer and filing a claim.

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It might go nowhere, but that

costs you time and money in and

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of regards to where it ends up.

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You want to hire a lawyer to fight that?

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They bill by the hour.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

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Kendall Schultz: So when I think of it

from a holistic perspective, if you do

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it right and your hands are in the weeds,

you are directly affecting and impacting

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how the budget is created and spent

with an organization, not only for your

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department, for the entire ecosystem.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So tell me what that

looks like, that ultimately really

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being embedded in the strategy of

the organization itself and people's

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strategy being downstream from that.

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What does that look like if

you're really operating at that

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level that you're imagining?

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It's not even a question that

you're a part of the C-suite.

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It's obvious that we're working on

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the strategy and that you have input.

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What does that look like?

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That you have input.

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What does that look like?

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How do you know that you're operating

at that level as an HR leader?

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Kendall Schultz: You have

to take it upon yourself.

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I don't think that most people in

my seat, especially I would say the

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older generations, it's why I always

lean towards calling it the industry

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is changing to people operations.

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HR is checking boxes and they're taking

emails and complaints and concerns and

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pretty much just being order takers.

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If you want to be a true operational

function, you have to be able to

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dig in to the strategies of how

the company is actually operating.

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There's a lot of business

strategy that comes into play

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when you're in a seat like mine.

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And it doesn't come from

anyone else in the company.

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You have to go in and just do it.

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I ask for forgiveness, not

permission, quite frankly.

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I like to do my homework,

bring everything together.

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I think data points, again,

telling the story, doing your due

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diligence, and then bringing that

directly to your decision maker.

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And what I found is, especially with a

very difficult CEO and founder who maybe

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doesn't like to make decisions or likes

to push things off, you have to show them

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the value and essentially make it so it's

their idea, which who cares who gets the

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credit as long as it gets done, right?

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That's the win-win for everybody.

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I think also I always aim high knowing

I want to land somewhere in the middle.

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It's almost like a social

engineering approach, I would

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say, from an advising perspective.

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And in my experience, it works because

you take what you can get, right?

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It works because you take what you can

get right and if I can get anything out

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of I come to you with three scenarios

and you pick the middle road because

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you're comfortable with it I'm okay

with that because I can build off of

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that and they're going to so you're

starting to spend so it's going to it's

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going to it's going to prove itself

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Thomas Kunjappu: So if you're coming

in with three options, you're thinking

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through how you can be successful

no matter what option ends up

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happening ahead of that decision.

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Kendall Schultz: So even if, let's

say they pick the least desirable

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Thomas Kunjappu: decision

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Kendall Schultz: That's made, number

one, getting a CEO and a founder to make

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a decision in and of itself is a win.

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It's not a no.

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I don't take no for an answer

because even if it is a no, it's

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a not right now and a maybe.

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And I can work with that.

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So if get them to buy in,

even if they're skeptical.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

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Kendall Schultz: I'm so confident in

everything that I've done in my experience

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over the course of my career that

I'm willing to bet my position on the

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decisions that I'm making and presenting.

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And I haven't failed yet.

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And I know that, listen, I

know that doesn't sound very

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humble, but I think it's just

experience and it's people, right?

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I work in people.

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You have to be able to understand how

people operate, what makes them tick, how

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you can make them comfortable in making

a decision and getting that buy-in.

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I think every person is different, but

you have to be the person that really

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sits and evaluates and takes it all in.

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And then how do I approach this

with this person, essentially,

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regardless of their position?

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Thomas Kunjappu: It's refreshing

and it's a great attitude

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to have and self-confidence.

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So speaking of that, you mentioned it.

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So I'd like to, I made a

note because I'm curious.

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I want to dig in.

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How does a new HR leader find 100K in

direct cost savings, not theoretical, in

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their first quarter of coming into a role?

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How does one accomplish that?

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Kendall Schultz: There's

a number of things, right?

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So I think

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there's a lot.

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You got to look at

inefficiencies, number one.

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And that's time.

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I like to look at bandwidth.

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If you go dig into each department,

I want to understand the structure.

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Who's doing what?

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Who's reporting into who?

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Who's responsible for?

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What systems are they utilizing?

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If you have people who are sitting

around and it's very easy when

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you're coming in as a new person

because people are very laxed.

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They get set in their ways.

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They're comfortable.

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Those people tend to fly under the radar.

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You have to be able to bring that to

the attention of your decision makers

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and say, hey, we might need to evaluate

how this department's operating.

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And then you start seeing that they

start buying in and saying, wow,

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we have a lot of money waste here.

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Maybe we have the wrong positions.

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That in and of itself, you

have two people doing the same

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job and you don't need them.

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You could be hiring one person

that could be doing it and

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maybe neither of those people.

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And that's you never want

somebody to be out of a job.

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They're probably going to

get bored and leave anyways.

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So that costs you money as well.

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I think the secondary part of it

is digging into the vendors that

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you're I really believe it is digging

into the vendors that you're, I

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really believe it, digging into

the vendors that you're utilizing.

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How much are you paying?

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I've gone into a company and

they were paying monthly for a

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subscription that they've been

using for the past five years.

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I looked and I've led together and I was,

I evaluated that they wasted $100,000

294

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just because they were paying monthly.

295

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So it's in the details.

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And I think it's just, it's like

I said in the beginning, it's

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evaluating and understanding.

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You can't go in and just, the mistake

people make, I think, is day one.

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What am I going to change?

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I've seen it before.

301

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My last organization, they hired a CRO.

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He was very junior, paid him

a lot of money, hired a CRO.

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He was very junior, paid him a lot of

money, but he didn't stop and evaluate

304

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what is currently happening now.

305

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He came in super hot and

wanted to change everything.

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It made a complete mess.

307

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Nobody respected him.

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I had to have hour-long conversations with

him that took time away from my position.

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That's money being spent out the window.

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So I think it's evaluating

your current structure.

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And I think it really is the

vendors that you're utilizing.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Got it.

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And it's the ability to have impact

beyond just the budget that's specifically

314

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directed at HR, but actually more broadly.

315

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Yeah, that's nothing.

316

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What was that?

317

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Kendall Schultz: HR, in my

experience, never gets a budget.

318

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We're the first to be let go

in the last few brought on.

319

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So they're not going to

really give us a budget.

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They're going to give us the ability

to pitch things that we need.

321

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But typically, you have

to operate very lean.

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So,

323

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you know, you have to

create your own budget.

324

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And I think that's where

my mindset comes from this.

325

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Because if we don't have

one, how can I get one?

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Thomas Kunjappu: And I've talked a lot of

HR leaders where there's teams of one or

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teams of three, where the ratio, it just

continues on for a while, or really what

328

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you have are a recruiting team internally.

329

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And there's no one else thinking

about anything else, which I think

330

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is what you're advocating for around

like strategic thinking around

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creating an HR team that's able

to deliver past the administrative

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elements or just getting people hired.

333

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It's tricky.

334

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And we've been talking a lot about

all the different dynamics, almost

335

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the internal negotiation dynamics

that you need to master to be

336

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able to get to these outcomes.

337

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So we've been talking about, I don't know,

efficiency, redundancies, and like how you

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need to really be almost like ruthless in

getting, finding and executing on budget.

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But something that struck me when we

were preparing was your focus on the

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flip side on psychological safety and

embedding that into your operating model

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and systematically into the organization.

342

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So can you tell me a little bit

about what that means for you?

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Kendall Schultz: I think everything that

we do, because it's so people-oriented,

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it's embedded in psychology.

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You have to understand people.

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You can't speak to one person one

way and another person another way.

347

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Everyone's got triggers.

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But I think if you lead with a

psychological approach, you're

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cultivating an environment where

people, one, do feel safe and they're

350

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more willing to open up and actually

come to you, which is what we want.

351

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Right.

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We want to be a place where people are

coming to us because we are the HR team.

353

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We're here for people.

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Companies oftentimes, and this

is again embedded in HR, HR

355

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is typically for the company.

356

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People operations is for the best

interest of the employee and the company.

357

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So we sit on that line.

358

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It takes a lot of work to

develop psychological safety

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within an organization.

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You have to communicate and develop trust.

361

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And again, in my last company, I would

say I came in and there was none.

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People were terrified.

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They did not.

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They thought that if they went to

HR, they were on the chopping block.

365

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went to the root core of it.

366

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And essentially, when my CEO

was out of town, pulled the town

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hall and spoke to everybody.

368

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And essentially, I have

an open door policy.

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There is no repercussion for you

coming forward for anything on

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your own behalf or somebody else's.

371

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And quite frankly, this

led to some very big wins.

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And then if you have one person coming

to you, they have a good experience and

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you provide a resolution or outcome.

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They're going to tell their great

experience of that to their peers.

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You're going to start developing

a culture that just innately has

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psychological safety embedded in it.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Ah, so you're talking

about the concept of, instead of being

378

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the hall monitor, having someone who's

open, having a posture that is open for

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employees to feel like they can actually

reveal the core of what's on their mind.

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Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I

think that, here's the thing,

381

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is they're adults, right?

382

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If you treat people like an adult,

they will either rise to the

383

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occasion or they won't, right?

384

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We're not there to reprimand.

385

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We're there to reinforce policies and

procedures and develop them, obviously.

386

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But to your point, like,

we are not homeowners.

387

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These are adults.

388

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If there's things peer-to-peer that can be

resolved between one another, you want to

389

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give them the tools to be able to do that.

390

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They need to be able

to stand on their own.

391

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And some people would say

you're developing an environment

392

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where you're not needed.

393

00:19:10,813 --> 00:19:13,553

But I think that they're

tied to the culture.

394

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They are the culture.

395

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So they're going to be the ones that

you want to change and ones that

396

00:19:18,523 --> 00:19:21,123

are going to give you insight as

to what's wrong with the culture as

397

00:19:21,123 --> 00:19:22,623

it stands or what's great about it.

398

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You're opening the door

to have them have a voice.

399

00:19:26,293 --> 00:19:27,763

And I think that's extremely important.

400

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And it ties for attention, obviously.

401

00:19:31,733 --> 00:19:31,983

Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

402

00:19:31,983 --> 00:19:34,633

If you feel like you can

be open and honest, right?

403

00:19:34,683 --> 00:19:36,543

But the nuance there is I thought

404

00:19:36,563 --> 00:19:41,813

it would be more associated with

how embedding that feeling towards

405

00:19:41,983 --> 00:19:45,253

your peers, your manager, and

leadership more broadly, as opposed

406

00:19:45,253 --> 00:19:47,783

to the posture specifically with HR.

407

00:19:48,053 --> 00:19:49,653

But is that like a step along the way?

408

00:19:49,743 --> 00:19:52,113

Is that a conjecture?

409

00:19:52,163 --> 00:19:54,943

Kendall Schultz: Your peers and

your leaders, quite frankly,

410

00:19:54,963 --> 00:19:56,633

you manage up, even your

411

00:20:00,093 --> 00:20:00,103

CEO.

412

00:20:00,113 --> 00:20:03,973

It's no different with a junior

level employee than somebody

413

00:20:03,973 --> 00:20:05,433

who's also in a C-suite with me.

414

00:20:05,913 --> 00:20:07,243

They're dealing with their own things.

415

00:20:07,373 --> 00:20:11,433

It just might be at a different level of,

okay, they're managing people and their

416

00:20:11,433 --> 00:20:12,933

problems might be a little bit different.

417

00:20:13,313 --> 00:20:18,843

But I think holistically, it's all

tied to the same fundamental approach.

418

00:20:20,883 --> 00:20:24,103

Thomas Kunjappu: But I guess I wonder,

what are the limits of the leverage as

419

00:20:24,103 --> 00:20:29,353

an HR function in creating this concept

of psychological safety within the

420

00:20:29,353 --> 00:20:32,823

context of an employee's relationship

with their manager and with their

421

00:20:32,823 --> 00:20:36,593

peers and with their C-suite, as

opposed to their relationship with HR.

422

00:20:37,103 --> 00:20:41,393

So I think in the example, you're talking

about how it's important to ensure that

423

00:20:41,393 --> 00:20:46,093

folks can feel like they can come to

people operation, let's call it, and

424

00:20:46,983 --> 00:20:48,333

there's psychological safety there.

425

00:20:48,553 --> 00:20:51,353

But how do you take that and translate

that into the day-to-day life?

426

00:20:51,433 --> 00:20:53,153

People aren't talking to HR all day.

427

00:20:53,183 --> 00:20:54,613

They're working with each other.

428

00:20:54,953 --> 00:20:59,623

So how does that, how do you translate

that into just the reformation or

429

00:20:59,633 --> 00:21:03,413

evolution of the culture, which

has lived without you in the room?

430

00:21:04,203 --> 00:21:06,063

Kendall Schultz: That's the thing

though, if they've never had

431

00:21:06,063 --> 00:21:07,243

that, you have to be in the room.

432

00:21:08,083 --> 00:21:10,913

Because they don't have the

tools or the skills, right?

433

00:21:10,913 --> 00:21:14,953

So if you're bringing somebody who's

reporting into a manager and a manager

434

00:21:14,953 --> 00:21:19,073

into a room, you have to be there

to help almost mediate and get them

435

00:21:19,103 --> 00:21:24,643

to a point where they can then take

those skills and repeat them on their

436

00:21:24,673 --> 00:21:29,693

own or build off of them and then it

seminates across the organization, right?

437

00:21:29,693 --> 00:21:32,973

But you can't do it on a piece of paper.

438

00:21:32,973 --> 00:21:34,203

You can't do it in a policy.

439

00:21:34,203 --> 00:21:36,293

You can't do it through an email or Slack.

440

00:21:36,713 --> 00:21:37,963

You have to be involved.

441

00:21:38,323 --> 00:21:43,583

In my experience, if you're not, you're

only sweeping things out of the rug

442

00:21:43,583 --> 00:21:47,983

because you're leaving them to their

own devices and not everybody's equipped

443

00:21:48,553 --> 00:21:55,213

to understand the psychological safety

approach or even what that means.

444

00:21:55,643 --> 00:21:58,713

I can tell a manager, hey, you

should do this, try this and this.

445

00:21:59,073 --> 00:22:03,283

Okay, they might go and do it, but

maybe their direct report has a

446

00:22:03,283 --> 00:22:06,733

problem with their tone, and their

tone was still that way in them.

447

00:22:06,853 --> 00:22:07,503

You see what I'm saying?

448

00:22:07,503 --> 00:22:13,753

So you have to get to the root problem and

provide awareness on both sides so that

449

00:22:13,753 --> 00:22:15,313

they can come together and move forward.

450

00:22:16,543 --> 00:22:19,793

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, it sounds like

you're really advocating for setting

451

00:22:19,803 --> 00:22:24,803

examples and being consistent in setting

examples throughout the organization.

452

00:22:24,813 --> 00:22:26,313

And then that can slow down.

453

00:22:26,313 --> 00:22:30,753

Slowly start to snowball into shifting

the culture forward, especially in

454

00:22:30,753 --> 00:22:33,853

environments where you have folks

without a lot of experience in

455

00:22:33,853 --> 00:22:36,833

either management or people dynamics

or a real focus on it, right?

456

00:22:37,073 --> 00:22:37,293

Yeah.

457

00:22:37,333 --> 00:22:40,183

And speaking of that, it happens a lot.

458

00:22:43,283 --> 00:22:45,403

Kendall Schultz: There's a lot of,

let's promote this person because

459

00:22:45,403 --> 00:22:47,953

we don't want to lose them, but

they have no experience in managing.

460

00:22:48,273 --> 00:22:49,673

There's no training oftentimes.

461

00:22:49,693 --> 00:22:50,024

So I've had to advocate for LMS

systems, which legally you're

462

00:22:50,024 --> 00:22:50,057

supposed to have as oftentimes.

463

00:22:50,057 --> 00:22:52,293

So I've had to advocate for LMS

systems, which legally you're

464

00:22:52,293 --> 00:22:53,093

supposed to have as well.

465

00:22:53,113 --> 00:22:56,543

So you reinforce it with certain

tools on your side, but I really do

466

00:22:56,543 --> 00:23:00,503

think it's human to human and it's

providing that support and guidance.

467

00:23:01,843 --> 00:23:02,313

Thomas Kunjappu: So

468

00:23:04,703 --> 00:23:08,823

this is all happening in the

context of, I would say, whipsaw

469

00:23:08,823 --> 00:23:10,123

environments potentially, right?

470

00:23:10,123 --> 00:23:13,873

Hyper growth, rifts, rehiring, HR

471

00:23:16,303 --> 00:23:19,373

teams themselves being the first

ones to be let go and then brought

472

00:23:19,373 --> 00:23:20,533

back when the times are good.

473

00:23:20,913 --> 00:23:22,378

There's a lot of whipsawing

happening, right?

474

00:23:22,393 --> 00:23:23,993

And you've been in so many

environments like that.

475

00:23:24,028 --> 00:23:28,713

Do you have a playbook in this

context that helps protect culture and

476

00:23:28,713 --> 00:23:31,763

momentum when there's so much whipsaw?

477

00:23:32,623 --> 00:23:36,163

Kendall Schultz: I think it's

a fundamental characteristic

478

00:23:36,453 --> 00:23:38,243

by nature, essentially.

479

00:23:38,243 --> 00:23:40,573

I wouldn't say it's a

playbook that I follow.

480

00:23:40,573 --> 00:23:42,813

I think it's just a moral

compass, essentially, based on

481

00:23:42,903 --> 00:23:44,183

any environment I'm going into.

482

00:23:44,873 --> 00:23:47,173

But I do think it's, I've often been told

483

00:23:47,173 --> 00:23:50,783

that I advocate to the fullest, right?

484

00:23:50,783 --> 00:23:53,953

So I make sure that I speak up.

485

00:23:54,023 --> 00:24:00,093

I continue to hammer the problem

home until people understand and

486

00:24:00,093 --> 00:24:02,773

see that there needs to be change

or something needs to be addressed.

487

00:24:03,203 --> 00:24:05,763

There was, I'll tell you, there

was an incident, for example,

488

00:24:06,403 --> 00:24:07,593

there really was no culture.

489

00:24:07,593 --> 00:24:08,773

It was a very negative culture.

490

00:24:08,773 --> 00:24:12,013

It was fear culture, I would say,

in an organization I worked in.

491

00:24:12,738 --> 00:24:17,388

This employee came to me because she

had been promoted to a marketing team.

492

00:24:18,978 --> 00:24:24,318

She was going to have to work with the

Chief of the Design marketing department.

493

00:24:25,088 --> 00:24:26,758

Come to find out, this was her first job.

494

00:24:26,758 --> 00:24:28,608

She had been there for two years.

495

00:24:28,898 --> 00:24:29,798

She started during COVID.

496

00:24:30,628 --> 00:24:33,628

They had an outing, apparently,

and this was prior to my start,

497

00:24:33,948 --> 00:24:37,998

where, you know, he made some

suggestive, inappropriate comments.

498

00:24:38,358 --> 00:24:42,418

And it was continual throughout the entire

event that they were kind of team bonding.

499

00:24:43,028 --> 00:24:44,608

She reported it and nothing was done.

500

00:24:45,198 --> 00:24:48,708

Now, fast forward to her promotion,

she now has to sit in a room

501

00:24:48,708 --> 00:24:49,808

and work with this individual.

502

00:24:50,148 --> 00:24:51,158

She's very uncomfortable.

503

00:24:51,898 --> 00:24:55,198

The fact that she even stayed

is insane because there's also

504

00:24:57,748 --> 00:24:57,768

the...

505

00:24:57,778 --> 00:25:01,148

She can sue or do something about

it there's a three-year statute of

506

00:25:01,148 --> 00:25:04,868

limitations and she's still working

there so it hasn't even started yet the

507

00:25:04,868 --> 00:25:08,518

second I found out about this got up

out of my seat which if you're in person

508

00:25:08,518 --> 00:25:12,628

I think I ran around my office because

you have to have a presence I went

509

00:25:12,628 --> 00:25:17,288

directly into my CEO and Founder's office

and pretty much laid it on the line.

510

00:25:17,628 --> 00:25:23,298

And from a moral perspective, essentially

said, if he's not let go, I will quit.

511

00:25:24,378 --> 00:25:26,348

And he was terminated the next day.

512

00:25:26,378 --> 00:25:27,828

And he had been working

there for seven years.

513

00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,050

This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

514

00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:34,080

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

515

00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,990

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

516

00:25:36,990 --> 00:25:40,170

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

517

00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:43,260

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

518

00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:45,270

can all thrive in the age of ai.

519

00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:48,615

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

520

00:25:49,045 --> 00:25:49,655

community.

521

00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,120

Now back to the show.

522

00:25:52,445 --> 00:25:52,975

Thomas Kunjappu: Oh, wow.

523

00:25:53,015 --> 00:25:53,415

Okay.

524

00:25:53,425 --> 00:25:53,455

Okay.

525

00:25:53,875 --> 00:25:57,035

So that takes a clear moral compass.

526

00:25:57,065 --> 00:26:00,435

So this is you're mentioning

in this case where, I mean,

527

00:26:00,435 --> 00:26:02,365

there's something like proactive.

528

00:26:02,575 --> 00:26:03,805

Arguably, it's in peacetime.

529

00:26:03,845 --> 00:26:04,095

Right.

530

00:26:04,095 --> 00:26:06,505

But it's a it's an example of that.

531

00:26:06,695 --> 00:26:06,855

Yeah.

532

00:26:07,005 --> 00:26:10,665

I think what is really tough for so

many employees is like in these times

533

00:26:10,665 --> 00:26:14,005

of whipsaw where they're like there's

a certain way that we're working.

534

00:26:14,005 --> 00:26:17,295

But then the reality is all

of a sudden there's a riff.

535

00:26:17,295 --> 00:26:17,535

Right.

536

00:26:17,535 --> 00:26:21,205

And there's like this potential

like breach of trust systematically,

537

00:26:21,205 --> 00:26:22,665

which is really hard regain.

538

00:26:22,665 --> 00:26:25,075

I think many of our listeners

have been through that

539

00:26:25,075 --> 00:26:26,295

on different sides of that.

540

00:26:26,685 --> 00:26:31,675

And no one has empathy, let's

call it for HR leaders as they're

541

00:26:31,685 --> 00:26:32,855

like executing through that.

542

00:26:32,855 --> 00:26:34,865

But this is a really tough example.

543

00:26:34,865 --> 00:26:38,345

But then on top of that, when it's

happening systematically in the

544

00:26:38,355 --> 00:26:43,665

organization, how does that ethical

and moral compass, how does that

545

00:26:43,675 --> 00:26:44,935

guide you in these situations?

546

00:26:45,445 --> 00:26:47,645

Kendall Schultz: I think

I've been through a lot.

547

00:26:47,665 --> 00:26:50,545

I've had to lead and charge a

lot of risks in the office and

548

00:26:50,555 --> 00:26:51,845

in restructurings, essentially.

549

00:26:51,845 --> 00:26:53,965

And you can use either term

interchangeably, obviously.

550

00:26:55,525 --> 00:26:58,355

But I think the most important

part is you need to do right by the

551

00:26:58,355 --> 00:26:59,385

individuals that you're letting go.

552

00:26:59,645 --> 00:27:02,675

So it's dependent upon, let's say,

you also have, there's also situations

553

00:27:02,675 --> 00:27:05,965

from a state perspective, if you let

go of a certain percentage, you are

554

00:27:05,965 --> 00:27:07,705

required by law to give garden leave.

555

00:27:07,705 --> 00:27:13,655

Now, if not, and let's say it's just

under the gun and you can do what you

556

00:27:13,655 --> 00:27:17,845

want, and I don't say me doing what I

want, but the CEO and founder who's making

557

00:27:17,895 --> 00:27:22,445

essentially this choice and decision and

then handing it over for us to execute.

558

00:27:23,315 --> 00:27:23,605

Right.

559

00:27:23,615 --> 00:27:26,945

I'd like to sit down and essentially

say, let's build out a model here.

560

00:27:26,965 --> 00:27:29,905

OK, so how long have

the structure and tiers?

561

00:27:30,175 --> 00:27:31,325

This person's been here a year.

562

00:27:31,705 --> 00:27:32,485

What is fair?

563

00:27:32,965 --> 00:27:35,775

I know that realistically,

they're probably not going

564

00:27:35,775 --> 00:27:36,955

to have a job for 30 days.

565

00:27:36,955 --> 00:27:39,225

And then in this economy,

it's probably even worse.

566

00:27:39,225 --> 00:27:39,505

Right.

567

00:27:40,245 --> 00:27:44,535

So if they've been with us for

two years, let's give them two

568

00:27:44,535 --> 00:27:45,955

months, things of that nature.

569

00:27:45,955 --> 00:27:48,000

And there's some negotiating

in there as well.

570

00:27:48,005 --> 00:27:51,715

I present a plan essentially

before anything's even executed to

571

00:27:51,715 --> 00:27:53,625

ensure that we're doing right by

the people that we're letting go.

572

00:27:53,685 --> 00:27:54,415

That's number one.

573

00:27:55,050 --> 00:27:59,920

Secondarily, you need to get in

front of the employee population

574

00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:01,430

and you need to calm their nerves.

575

00:28:02,190 --> 00:28:04,260

I think it needs to come from the top.

576

00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:06,720

I think it needs to come

from your HR leader.

577

00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,830

And I also think it

needs to be reinforced by

578

00:28:08,850 --> 00:28:10,320

your department leaders and managers.

579

00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:10,540

Right.

580

00:28:10,540 --> 00:28:13,440

So you also have to give them the tools

for people who are going to come to

581

00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:19,105

them so that they alleviate some of that

what am I next, that nervous energy and

582

00:28:19,105 --> 00:28:22,605

anxiety that comes along with seeing

your peer no longer sitting next to you.

583

00:28:23,185 --> 00:28:25,345

It's transparency and

it's open communication.

584

00:28:25,735 --> 00:28:31,985

And you're going to have people who it's

going to impact their performance, right?

585

00:28:31,995 --> 00:28:36,495

So it takes a little bit more of

handholding with those leaders to ensure

586

00:28:36,495 --> 00:28:37,925

that people aren't falling behind.

587

00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,985

That is an empathetic approach.

588

00:28:39,995 --> 00:28:42,105

And there's, again, a lot

of psychology behind that.

589

00:28:42,495 --> 00:28:44,025

People are not just

coming in and operating.

590

00:28:44,025 --> 00:28:45,095

They do have a personal life.

591

00:28:45,095 --> 00:28:45,875

They do have feelings.

592

00:28:45,875 --> 00:28:49,565

They do have things that are impacting

their day-to-day that are outside

593

00:28:49,895 --> 00:28:51,555

of those walls of that office.

594

00:28:52,655 --> 00:28:57,085

So I think just being mindful of it and

being a human being about it, although it

595

00:28:57,085 --> 00:29:01,130

is difficult and it's a business decision

and it has to be done, I also like to

596

00:29:01,140 --> 00:29:02,910

be a source for people that we let go.

597

00:29:03,330 --> 00:29:04,460

I will be a reference.

598

00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:08,490

I will help network with you to, if

I hear of a job, I will connect you.

599

00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:11,980

I will push you forward to agencies and

things that I know exist that I have

600

00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:14,170

contacts to help you find another job.

601

00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:17,220

I don't know that everybody

does that, but I do.

602

00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:21,910

Thomas Kunjappu: Thank you for going

through some of these examples of how

603

00:29:21,910 --> 00:29:27,370

you might tactically deal with something

that so many of us have been a part of

604

00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:28,611

in the last few years with the whipsaw of

the COVID boom and end of zero interest

605

00:29:28,611 --> 00:29:28,830

rate, end of ZERP and all the rest, right?

606

00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:32,640

Kendall Schultz: There's

607

00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:36,570

the ups in

608

00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:38,840

that.

609

00:29:38,910 --> 00:29:39,765

Thomas Kunjappu: We've all lived it.

610

00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,030

But through that, I think one of

the things I definitely wanted to

611

00:29:43,030 --> 00:29:48,010

talk to you about was the concept

of HR operations as a product.

612

00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,620

So you've been talking about that.

613

00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,150

And I'm very curious because my own

background is in product management.

614

00:29:54,505 --> 00:29:59,230

So tell me about how you think about the

service or the product that you offer

615

00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,380

and how that metaphor is useful for you.

616

00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,710

Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think I like

to think of HR as an iceberg, right?

617

00:30:06,770 --> 00:30:07,670

People only see the tip.

618

00:30:07,825 --> 00:30:10,880

There's so much that goes into

operating an organization,

619

00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:15,610

building out an organization,

which by association we are doing.

620

00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:18,760

You have to look forward and

align with the company goals.

621

00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:19,940

And if a company doesn't have goals,

622

00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:23,510

you have push them to understand what they

are, bring the right people into the room.

623

00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:25,070

What is everybody working on?

624

00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:26,630

Where are we working towards?

625

00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:28,320

What is it going to take to get there?

626

00:30:28,890 --> 00:30:33,670

Because with that information, I can

then evaluate, okay, what do we need to

627

00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:35,450

do and what do we need to prepare for?

628

00:30:35,820 --> 00:30:38,760

So a company changes at 100 people.

629

00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:40,650

It changes again at 200.

630

00:30:40,650 --> 00:30:43,195

It changes again at

500 and again at 1,000.

631

00:30:43,270 --> 00:30:46,420

The way you operate and the things

you have in place today are not

632

00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:47,930

necessarily going to work tomorrow.

633

00:30:48,145 --> 00:30:51,360

So you have to anticipate,

just like a product,

634

00:30:51,620 --> 00:30:53,780

where do we need to innovate and improve?

635

00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:55,180

And when do we need to do it?

636

00:30:55,755 --> 00:30:58,735

I push my team and I get pushed

back sometimes until they

637

00:30:58,775 --> 00:31:00,175

understand where I'm coming from.

638

00:31:01,225 --> 00:31:06,255

To do the extra work now, it might not be

needed right now, but it sure is going to

639

00:31:06,255 --> 00:31:10,275

be helpful and useful for us to build off

of what we're going to need to do next.

640

00:31:10,765 --> 00:31:14,715

So if you do the work on that

now and you had some of that

641

00:31:14,715 --> 00:31:16,535

prep, it goes a lot faster.

642

00:31:16,555 --> 00:31:21,345

You can get business decisions a lot

faster, build business cases a lot faster.

643

00:31:21,695 --> 00:31:23,275

You're not sitting and

digging for the data.

644

00:31:23,425 --> 00:31:24,925

I'll use Greenhouse for an example.

645

00:31:25,335 --> 00:31:30,345

Right now, we want to get to a point

where we can proactively understand

646

00:31:30,655 --> 00:31:32,085

how many people we need to hire.

647

00:31:32,415 --> 00:31:33,895

We're moving into North Carolina.

648

00:31:33,905 --> 00:31:38,145

I put greenhouse in place because

they have the best data in the market

649

00:31:38,255 --> 00:31:40,045

if you set up your product properly.

650

00:31:40,755 --> 00:31:45,375

I leverage that to show tracking and

trends of what is our activity, where

651

00:31:45,375 --> 00:31:46,875

are our bottlenecks, where are our gaps.

652

00:31:47,570 --> 00:31:52,120

That's going to lead you into, okay,

what is our objective in our plan?

653

00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:52,970

How many people is it going to take?

654

00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,010

We can actually build out a timeline,

essentially, of not only how many people

655

00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:02,350

do I need on my team now to be able to

fill the needs of this business in a

656

00:32:02,350 --> 00:32:07,260

specific amount of time, but we can also

agree to a certain number of hardwoods.

657

00:32:07,270 --> 00:32:09,620

Based on the productivity

that we've had in the past.

658

00:32:10,125 --> 00:32:11,030

It's just like a product.

659

00:32:11,270 --> 00:32:18,040

You're looking back at how it's

evolved and how it's been adopted,

660

00:32:18,050 --> 00:32:22,650

where there are the gaps in how

you can tackle and improve those.

661

00:32:23,450 --> 00:32:25,410

We are a product team to a certain extent.

662

00:32:25,470 --> 00:32:26,500

Our product's just people.

663

00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:27,660

It really is.

664

00:32:29,180 --> 00:32:32,250

Thomas Kunjappu: Every product team

then is being impacted and is thinking

665

00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:39,720

about how AI will come into the adoption

loop or into the processes and the

666

00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,265

systems that they've put in place.

667

00:32:41,565 --> 00:32:44,295

How do you think about that

within this, especially with this

668

00:32:44,295 --> 00:32:45,625

concept of HR ops as a product?

669

00:32:46,130 --> 00:32:50,875

Kendall Schultz: It's funny

because when I left my last job, AI

670

00:32:52,945 --> 00:32:58,815

really took off in a way that had

never really impacted my industry ever.

671

00:32:59,255 --> 00:33:00,945

We really operate.

672

00:33:01,085 --> 00:33:04,175

Not much has changed, really,

other than the fundamentals

673

00:33:04,175 --> 00:33:05,335

and how we approach things.

674

00:33:05,625 --> 00:33:08,775

But the tools that we've had

have consistently been the same.

675

00:33:08,965 --> 00:33:13,825

been a department or industry that

not many people have paid attention

676

00:33:13,825 --> 00:33:14,327

to and from a toolage perspective.

677

00:33:14,327 --> 00:33:15,035

Not many people have paid attention

to and from a toolage perspective.

678

00:33:15,125 --> 00:33:19,405

I would say about June of last

year, July, August is really when,

679

00:33:19,695 --> 00:33:24,405

okay, hey, AI can hire for you,

so you don't need humans anymore.

680

00:33:25,025 --> 00:33:30,055

These products are brand new, and you're

putting them with people that can sure

681

00:33:30,075 --> 00:33:32,615

can implement a system, but have never

implemented something like this before.

682

00:33:32,615 --> 00:33:35,165

It's enablement tool, which

means you still need human

683

00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:36,735

beings to be able to operate it.

684

00:33:37,225 --> 00:33:44,025

Now, if you ask anybody, the market

was a mess because you have a number

685

00:33:44,025 --> 00:33:49,475

of people applying with a system that's

new that hasn't really had a chance

686

00:33:49,535 --> 00:33:54,805

to operate and collect the proper

data, knocking out almost everybody

687

00:33:54,935 --> 00:33:57,095

before it even hits a real person.

688

00:33:57,605 --> 00:33:59,375

So you have jobs that

are not getting filled.

689

00:33:59,375 --> 00:34:00,955

That's churning and burning cash.

690

00:34:00,955 --> 00:34:03,235

You have people getting burnt out

and leaving positions because of it.

691

00:34:03,585 --> 00:34:06,285

And now, okay, wait, maybe we

need one recruiter and they're

692

00:34:06,285 --> 00:34:07,505

sourcing the same people.

693

00:34:07,895 --> 00:34:10,114

So talk about money ways.

694

00:34:10,405 --> 00:34:12,545

Now, do I think AI is good?

695

00:34:12,645 --> 00:34:13,455

A hundred percent.

696

00:34:13,455 --> 00:34:15,304

I think we can leverage

it in a number of ways.

697

00:34:15,645 --> 00:34:18,469

I think about sourcing automation.

698

00:34:18,929 --> 00:34:19,770

People are out there.

699

00:34:20,190 --> 00:34:25,940

If we can put in keywords and locate

individuals, I'm all for that.

700

00:34:25,940 --> 00:34:30,520

And put them into a pool, into the

ATS, scrape and source and do all of

701

00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,900

that, that takes time away from my

people that they have to go on LinkedIn

702

00:34:34,909 --> 00:34:37,235

and search in Boolean strings, right?

703

00:34:37,235 --> 00:34:39,315

We've been working on

Boolean strings for decades.

704

00:34:40,145 --> 00:34:40,455

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

705

00:34:40,614 --> 00:34:44,235

Kendall Schultz: So I think it's

something that's going to be important,

706

00:34:44,235 --> 00:34:48,514

and I think it's going to

change our industry a good bit.

707

00:34:48,864 --> 00:34:53,605

But I think the businesses need to

understand the impact of it, and I think

708

00:34:54,054 --> 00:34:57,795

the companies that are selling it need

to understand what they're actually

709

00:34:57,795 --> 00:35:00,005

pitching because it can be detrimental.

710

00:35:00,005 --> 00:35:02,245

And we've seen that over

the past 10, 12 months.

711

00:35:04,065 --> 00:35:06,715

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, I've heard

this narrative, not narrative, but

712

00:35:06,715 --> 00:35:11,415

just like this perspective from a

lot of operators that the AI vendors

713

00:35:11,415 --> 00:35:14,685

are just beating us over the head

with AI this and that and everything.

714

00:35:14,685 --> 00:35:15,325

Is going to change.

715

00:35:15,325 --> 00:35:20,165

And effectively, it's a landscape where

there's a lot of over-promising happening,

716

00:35:20,925 --> 00:35:22,145

which I think is what you're saying.

717

00:35:22,145 --> 00:35:24,365

But then you didn't mention, though,

that there's some future where

718

00:35:24,375 --> 00:35:28,885

there can be maybe some of that

can happen, but at least for now,

719

00:35:28,885 --> 00:35:30,345

you need to be, there are elements.

720

00:35:30,345 --> 00:35:35,175

So you specifically called out sourcing as

an element where you actually see value.

721

00:35:35,465 --> 00:35:39,165

So have there been actually any

integrations or implementations

722

00:35:41,155 --> 00:35:45,445

that you can speak to already that

right now you feel are already

723

00:35:45,485 --> 00:35:50,225

starting to make improvements and add

efficiencies to your team and workflows?

724

00:35:50,695 --> 00:35:51,085

Kendall Schultz: Yeah.

725

00:35:51,095 --> 00:35:53,835

So, again, I could be a

promoter of Greenhouse.

726

00:35:54,195 --> 00:35:55,585

They are tried and true.

727

00:35:55,585 --> 00:36:00,165

And they actually acquired a company I'm

at a loss for the name of it right now.

728

00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,410

But they actually already had sourcing

automation built into their system.

729

00:36:04,970 --> 00:36:08,270

So it was an offering that they

did their due diligence on,

730

00:36:08,530 --> 00:36:11,560

purchased the organization and

built it right into their system.

731

00:36:11,935 --> 00:36:15,270

It's phenomenal because it can scrape

LinkedIn and can do certain things.

732

00:36:15,620 --> 00:36:18,850

But I do think that there's still

room for improvement, obviously.

733

00:36:18,850 --> 00:36:21,680

I think there's a lot of room

where AI can come into play.

734

00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:27,120

I would love to see it tackle

like career fairs and events.

735

00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,840

My team's at a career fair

right now in New York City.

736

00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:34,830

Maybe we can do something with AI that

allows us to attract candidates as opposed

737

00:36:34,830 --> 00:36:36,420

to the traditional marketing aspects.

738

00:36:36,420 --> 00:36:39,480

I'd love to be able to do that

through a platform because

739

00:36:39,945 --> 00:36:41,915

it is very manual right now.

740

00:36:42,215 --> 00:36:45,200

So that marketing landscape

hasn't changed a whole lot.

741

00:36:45,570 --> 00:36:47,830

But there's, you know,

there is a way to do it.

742

00:36:47,830 --> 00:36:49,720

I'm not an AI expert by any means.

743

00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:50,790

It's really not my forte.

744

00:36:51,085 --> 00:36:54,170

But as an end user, look, I like ChatGPT.

745

00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,610

I'll write my emails, plop it in,

make sure that it comes out right.

746

00:36:57,940 --> 00:37:00,300

So it is a useful tool if

it's in the right hands.

747

00:37:02,070 --> 00:37:03,880

Thomas Kunjappu: So let's talk

about those hands and how they

748

00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,950

may need to evolve over time.

749

00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:10,010

So if you had to look ahead a

little bit for the HR function

750

00:37:10,020 --> 00:37:13,630

itself, and maybe there's some

over-promising with AI recruiters.

751

00:37:15,690 --> 00:37:19,620

But across all the different use cases

and types of programs that we run in

752

00:37:19,630 --> 00:37:24,890

the function, there's potential for at

least parts of it for AI to take over.

753

00:37:25,070 --> 00:37:30,330

So then if you step back and think about

your team or teams like yours, or in PE

754

00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:35,880

or VC-backed environments that are, I

don't know, growth-focused and need to

755

00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,700

be focused on being lean, what do you

think is going to be demanded more of from

756

00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:42,880

the HR and people operations function?

757

00:37:42,890 --> 00:37:46,710

And are there things that are going

to be demanded less of in the future?

758

00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:51,140

Kendall Schultz: That's a tough question,

quite frankly, because I still believe

759

00:37:51,150 --> 00:37:55,110

that most organizations still don't

understand HR or people operations,

760

00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:56,600

whichever you want to call at this point.

761

00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,980

They demand whatever you're

willing to give them.

762

00:38:00,030 --> 00:38:01,255

I've been in seats where I was hungry

763

00:38:01,255 --> 00:38:03,320

and I I was hungry and I tackled

everything and next thing you

764

00:38:03,330 --> 00:38:08,400

know I'm doing payroll systems

and I'm handling green cards.

765

00:38:08,620 --> 00:38:09,500

Opening entities in

766

00:38:09,500 --> 00:38:09,970

Dubai.

767

00:38:09,970 --> 00:38:11,180

I'm handling office management.

768

00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,550

I've had to take a step back after that

769

00:38:14,770 --> 00:38:18,660

to essentially say okay, this is

what we do and what we don't do.

770

00:38:18,715 --> 00:38:22,865

There's a lot of education that is

needed, I think, around what HR's

771

00:38:23,505 --> 00:38:27,135

functionality is and what we offer

and what we're supposed to be doing.

772

00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:30,045

Because we're looked at

as a support function.

773

00:38:30,045 --> 00:38:33,455

And if this team can't do

it, we'll give it to the HR.

774

00:38:33,495 --> 00:38:34,335

They'll figure it out.

775

00:38:34,845 --> 00:38:38,925

So I really don't think less

is going to be demanded of us.

776

00:38:39,105 --> 00:38:43,935

I think it's more of education and

boundaries in terms of holding other

777

00:38:43,935 --> 00:38:46,055

departments and teams accountable

and teams accountable to not

778

00:38:46,055 --> 00:38:49,075

hand off work because I think

that happens quite frequently.

779

00:38:49,365 --> 00:38:54,775

They pass the buck, especially in

PE-backed companies because you're

780

00:38:54,775 --> 00:38:57,585

walking into an organization where

there's never been somebody who's

781

00:38:57,585 --> 00:39:00,015

actually had recruiting experience.

782

00:39:00,060 --> 00:39:01,930

So they're hiring on a whim.

783

00:39:02,225 --> 00:39:02,980

I like this person.

784

00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:03,410

They're great.

785

00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:05,765

So you have, again, had a whole

team that I was working with

786

00:39:05,765 --> 00:39:06,695

that was all in accounting.

787

00:39:06,985 --> 00:39:08,685

They had zero finance experience.

788

00:39:09,385 --> 00:39:10,455

There was not a finance team.

789

00:39:11,455 --> 00:39:14,465

So we had to hire the right people.

790

00:39:14,715 --> 00:39:18,705

I think it starts with hiring the right

people for your HR team and putting that

791

00:39:18,805 --> 00:39:21,655

as a focus, because it ties in there.

792

00:39:21,655 --> 00:39:24,285

We've talked about culture, retention.

793

00:39:24,995 --> 00:39:28,195

I know we veered off a little bit AI,

but I think it has nothing to do with AI.

794

00:39:28,255 --> 00:39:30,195

I think it really, we're not there yet.

795

00:39:30,195 --> 00:39:31,940

I think people just need it.

796

00:39:32,135 --> 00:39:33,315

Thomas Kunjappu: So then,

yeah, let's talk about that.

797

00:39:33,325 --> 00:39:37,025

What skills matter most for HR

over the next couple of years?

798

00:39:37,025 --> 00:39:41,335

Is there anything that's becoming even

more central and important to the role?

799

00:39:41,665 --> 00:39:44,545

If I were reflecting what you're just

saying, it's just like the ability to

800

00:39:44,555 --> 00:39:48,515

be an ambassador and like selling the

role itself and like talking about what

801

00:39:48,515 --> 00:39:50,245

to expect and not expect confidently.

802

00:39:50,815 --> 00:39:53,425

But yeah, tell me what you think is

going to be what's going to really

803

00:39:53,425 --> 00:39:54,675

matter in terms of skill sets.

804

00:39:55,425 --> 00:39:55,445

Kendall Schultz: In

805

00:39:59,325 --> 00:40:06,455

my space need to develop that

approach because we need to band

806

00:40:06,455 --> 00:40:09,695

together to start changing the

landscape within these organizations.

807

00:40:10,145 --> 00:40:11,365

It's very individualized.

808

00:40:11,435 --> 00:40:15,175

I can step into a role in a

company and I'm working one way.

809

00:40:15,535 --> 00:40:18,145

My peer can step into a role

in a different company and he

810

00:40:18,145 --> 00:40:19,335

or she's working another way.

811

00:40:20,445 --> 00:40:24,065

So I think we need to set a precedent

and I think we need to have a voice

812

00:40:24,065 --> 00:40:30,265

and we need to be able to show

that we are an industry in a vital

813

00:40:30,335 --> 00:40:32,605

department that is needed in companies.

814

00:40:32,605 --> 00:40:35,995

I think that message needs to be

spread across the landscape of PEs

815

00:40:35,995 --> 00:40:39,095

and VC-backed growing organizations.

816

00:40:39,555 --> 00:40:39,705

change that.

817

00:40:40,455 --> 00:40:44,275

We have a lot of work to

do just ourselves, I think.

818

00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:48,700

And it comes from us and networking and

getting together and knowledge sharing.

819

00:40:48,815 --> 00:40:52,030

tap into my network and I want to

know how somebody's handling this.

820

00:40:52,030 --> 00:40:55,830

I want to understand what trials

and tribulations they're dealing

821

00:40:55,830 --> 00:40:57,060

with and how they've tackled it.

822

00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:58,670

I think that's really where it starts.

823

00:40:58,670 --> 00:41:04,070

It starts with us and it starts with

developing a message and again, having a

824

00:41:04,070 --> 00:41:05,670

seat at the table holistically, I think.

825

00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:10,830

The C-suite, yeah, we're part of

the C-suite, but does everybody

826

00:41:10,830 --> 00:41:12,380

recognize that within an organization?

827

00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:13,560

No, not always.

828

00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:18,040

So we're at the baseline, I

think, of the work is there.

829

00:41:18,420 --> 00:41:19,510

The skills are there.

830

00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:25,490

It's recognizing the vital of

our department and our role.

831

00:41:27,110 --> 00:41:28,780

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, I'm

almost translating that in my

832

00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:30,610

mind is like negotiation skills.

833

00:41:30,610 --> 00:41:35,990

Like you're basically negotiating

the rationale behind your role and

834

00:41:36,170 --> 00:41:40,290

what you're doing day-to-day in your

department and resetting in many

835

00:41:40,290 --> 00:41:44,430

cases what that actually is for the

C-suite that you're collaborating with.

836

00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,400

Because even if they're hiring a

co-C-suite member, they might not have

837

00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:55,260

the experience of working with someone

at that level with the new way of working

838

00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:58,250

where you actually can be strategic and

be a leverage point for the organization.

839

00:41:58,630 --> 00:42:03,960

And often many people are hiring for,

because like you said, they're supposed

840

00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,760

to, they're told that they're supposed to.

841

00:42:06,010 --> 00:42:09,350

And then the real outcomes that they're

focused on is, okay, I guess they

842

00:42:09,350 --> 00:42:15,060

can run the compliance things that

we need and then they can go and try

843

00:42:15,260 --> 00:42:16,700

to help us hire a bunch of people.

844

00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,670

But then putting those pieces together

is not necessarily something people are

845

00:42:20,670 --> 00:42:25,900

naturally thinking about or asking for,

but that's the gap that you need to

846

00:42:26,290 --> 00:42:30,800

discover on your own if that exists and

then go ahead and jump into that, right?

847

00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:34,780

Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think there's

a combination, and it just light

848

00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:38,320

bulb went off my head a little bit,

with when they're told that they

849

00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,190

need to hire somebody, again, as

I mentioned, it's, okay, can I get

850

00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:45,060

a person at this level, like three

years of experience making $80,000?

851

00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,850

They don't understand what they even

need, which is, again, they're calling

852

00:42:48,850 --> 00:42:51,260

them Head of People, or they're

calling them Chief People Officers,

853

00:42:51,260 --> 00:42:52,950

but they're three years out of school.

854

00:42:53,130 --> 00:42:54,170

And they're like, why aren't they?

855

00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:55,660

They can't do this.

856

00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,610

There needs to be education within our

space that there are people out there at a

857

00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:04,800

senior level that have years of experience

that have been through the trials and

858

00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:11,155

tribulations and can share the successes

of why you need to hire and invest in

859

00:43:11,155 --> 00:43:15,695

somebody more senior because you're

just putting a band-aid on the bullet

860

00:43:15,695 --> 00:43:18,735

wound to a certain extent with hiring

somebody who's junior and expecting them

861

00:43:18,735 --> 00:43:21,185

to do everything that this role entails.

862

00:43:21,195 --> 00:43:23,815

So again, I think it's education

and helping them understand

863

00:43:23,815 --> 00:43:25,195

what the job description is.

864

00:43:26,905 --> 00:43:29,705

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, so then as we

close out here, Kendall, if you're

865

00:43:29,905 --> 00:43:34,800

talking directly to your peers, other

hR leaders, and for what really matters

866

00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,820

for the function as we're trying to

future-proof hR and people operations,

867

00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:42,520

is there a message that you have or

something that comes to mind that

868

00:43:42,610 --> 00:43:44,150

you would share with your peers?

869

00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,050

Kendall Schultz: Yeah, I think

we all face no's and we're

870

00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:50,440

fighting uphill battle every day.

871

00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:57,420

But I think the more that we push

back and show the worth and value of

872

00:43:57,420 --> 00:44:02,080

what we do, that's going to change

the landscape and the mindsets of

873

00:44:02,110 --> 00:44:06,440

leaders, CEOs and founders, regardless

of what industry they're in,

874

00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:07,750

regardless of what space they're in.

875

00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:12,370

We need to start stepping up

in a way that we're not looking

876

00:44:12,380 --> 00:44:15,010

at protecting our job security.

877

00:44:15,010 --> 00:44:16,490

I think that's, I lead with that.

878

00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,940

Quite frankly, I put myself on

the chopping block to ensure

879

00:44:18,940 --> 00:44:20,910

that things are done right.

880

00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,020

We can't be afraid that

we're going to lose our job.

881

00:44:25,390 --> 00:44:28,490

We have to create the space and

you won't lose your job if we're

882

00:44:28,490 --> 00:44:32,670

all doing things that we should

be doing and advocating employees

883

00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:34,020

that we're supposed to be serving.

884

00:44:36,010 --> 00:44:39,340

Thomas Kunjappu: I think that's

a great a place as any to leave

885

00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:40,540

the conversation, Kendall.

886

00:44:40,540 --> 00:44:46,280

Let's extol everyone out there to have

the courage to do what you probably

887

00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:51,600

know is right and just lean in there and

make the case for what you want for the

888

00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,330

organization as well as your function.

889

00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:59,160

And we can move beyond a fear-based

thinking, which I think is prevalent

890

00:44:59,190 --> 00:45:03,510

actually at this particular moment

with a confluence of factors, with

891

00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,140

the economy, with the hiring cycle

that we're generally in with the

892

00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:11,330

labor market, as well as AI coming in.

893

00:45:11,330 --> 00:45:12,420

But thank you.

894

00:45:12,450 --> 00:45:14,990

So I think it's a very

timely conversation.

895

00:45:15,410 --> 00:45:18,350

As many folks out there who

are listening are looking to

896

00:45:18,350 --> 00:45:21,660

future-proof their organizations,

as well as their HR functions.

897

00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:24,990

And this is a bit of a roadmap, I think.

898

00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:28,130

Some ideas there about

how you can stay relevant.

899

00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:33,160

And it'll really stay with me, the

concept of educating your C-suite, right?

900

00:45:33,330 --> 00:45:38,350

Educating your peers within your function

about what you can and cannot do, but

901

00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:40,650

leaning into as many things as possible.

902

00:45:40,650 --> 00:45:44,930

And thank you for all these examples

with the level of specificity at which

903

00:45:44,930 --> 00:45:49,240

you need to be actually engaged to

actually get that seat at the table.

904

00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,650

So with all that said,

thank you again to Kendall.

905

00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,950

And for everyone out there,

good luck as you're on your own

906

00:45:55,950 --> 00:45:57,540

journeys to future-proof your

907

00:45:57,540 --> 00:46:00,530

organizations and the function overall.

908

00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,520

I'll see you on the next one.

909

00:46:02,580 --> 00:46:02,750

Bye now.

910

00:46:03,986 --> 00:46:07,046

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

911

00:46:07,286 --> 00:46:09,896

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

912

00:46:09,896 --> 00:46:12,776

review on the platform you're

listening to or watching us on.

913

00:46:13,196 --> 00:46:16,136

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