Shownotes
Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 49 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here.
P Soupers - I'm continuing my chat with Dr Sarah Pegrum. Sarah is a clinical psychologist, peer reviewed ACT trainer, Curator of the ACT BODY Project and Author of the book - Break the Binds of Weight Stigma. Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
In this episode - we dive into the book - starting with my review and moving on to reflect on how Weight Stigma might show up in the workplace and what we can do about it. Sarah's book and her reflections are so powerful and eye opening. Now - P-Soupers - at times the sound quality isn't perfect - I've tried every which way to enhance the recording for your listening pleasure, including a sound engineer - Soooo just a reminder there is a transcript if you don't catch every word - I don't want you to miss out on her inspirational reflections.
People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.
There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.
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Transcripts
REMASTER PART 2
[:[00:00:06] Sarah: as the messaging and looking at this stuff, the main question I get from people is, what about health? And over the years, weight has been increasingly tied to health. And for some people that can be a point of like, justifying a comment that they might make. So they might make a comment on someone's body and be like, well, I'm just concerned about their health. Or even towards ourselves, we might make a body related comment, or I need to do something because it's about my health, and it gets really, really closely tied to weight.
[:[00:01:07] Ross: Peasoopers, I'm continuing my chat with Dr. Sarah Pegram this week. Sarah is a clinical psychologist. Peer reviewed ACT trainer, curator of the ACT Body Project, and author of the book, Break the Binds of Weight Stigma, Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
[:[00:01:44] Now, P. Supers, at times the sound quality isn't perfect. Sometimes it feels a bit tidal. So I've tried every which way to enhance the recording for your listening pleasure, including a sound engineer. So, just a reminder that there is a transcript if you don't catch every [00:02:00] word.
[:[00:02:04] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, Hi, hola, welcome to the community. For those who are more familiar, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again. We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.
[:[00:02:52] I think it's a universal struggle. And Sarah Cassidy went on to say, I definitely feel like a lot of what you are talking about here and going on the journeys of courage are probably way more common to so many people than we are even aware of.
[:[00:03:18] Now, P Supers, you might have heard that the bookmarks have landed. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks. Dispatched by my dad in the Global Distribution Center in the Northeast Powerhouse. do you need to write a review?
[:[00:03:43] My act in the workplace train the trainer program is rapidly approaching. At the end of April, if you'd like to bring evidence based training to the organizations you work with to support well being and psychological flexibility, then look no further.
[:[00:04:12] So Sarah, I'm going to say the title again because I want to get this right.
[:[00:04:16] Ross: Your book is called Break the Binds of Weight Stigma, Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And what I'd love to do is start with my review.
[:[00:04:30] Ross: And, but you see, but Sarah hasn't heard this review yet. let's crack on.
[:[00:04:48] Sarah has created a captivating book built around the metaphor of a forest. The dense forest is a powerful way to represent our body image and how we can get tangled up and snagged in the branches, trunks and foliage, which can impact how we show up in the world. As our skilled guide, Sarah helps us to illuminate our forest, guiding us through it and providing reflective exercises at each stage, increasing our understanding and supporting us to take practical action with each chapter. It finishes with an essential section, where she considers how we can support each other.
[:[00:05:44] Sarah: so nice. So kind.
[:[00:06:10] At the beginning.
[:[00:06:33] And when you look at just how much there is, of course people have struggles with body image. Of course this stuff comes up. It's not that our bodies are broken or we're broken. When you look how all encompassing it is. It's hard not to have these struggles. And I find, you know, In looking at it in that way, it's a lot easier to turn towards those struggles in a compassionate way.
[:[00:07:27] Ross: Which you've certainly achieved. when did you realize that this was the book you were going to write?
[:[00:07:56] And I, I'll own that comment of, I'm not an academic writer, [00:08:00] that is not an academic book. I'm a storyteller. So I got out of my own way for that. But in terms of writing this book, I think the point where I'm like, this is, this is a book I want to write, was I'd been exposed to body image in the eating disorder world for a number of years.
[:[00:09:28] So I was really moved by just how big of an issue it was. And that was kind of the start of, I need to do something, I want to do something to help people so they don't feel like they have to hold back.
[:[00:10:07] I know a lot of people, bodies change shape. over the pandemic. Maybe they found their clothes no longer fitted. Going for a promotion, going for a new job in a new organization, where you have to be seen by a whole new group of people. I'm sure there are many more examples, but
[:[00:10:45] And then it would almost be like a beating themselves up of, I shouldn't be worried about that. So then kind of shutting it down, you know, but I was hoping like that the clinical space was a space that people could bring it and be like, I don't feel comfortable bringing it with my friends because I feel like I'm being, you know, superficial or shallow, but I want to bring it here because it is creating a lot of anxiety So it definitely came up in the pandemic times and returning to work. Other times when it might come up is if there's presentations or anything where having to be visible. Oh, I want to do the presentation or I trust my capacity in my, my skill and knowledge level. But the idea of getting up in front of other people and having other people see me and judge me and notice how I look, that brings up, you know, a lot of thoughts and feelings and people respond to those thoughts and feelings in a number of different ways.
[:[00:11:56] Ross: yeah, great one of presentations. I [00:12:00] guess particularly if you feel the weight of representing your organization or your team. There's an extra layer there. It's, it's so powerful and appearing on video as well as in person, the differences, anxieties you might have about that. Gosh, it's, it is every area of life, but obviously I'm interested in the workplace.
[:[00:12:51] And how am I going to look when I don't know how the machines work even? People will think, look at his pipe cleaner legs, things like that.
[:[00:13:01] Ross: Yeah, so I really recognize all the instances you say, but that's just one that's uppermost in my mind at the minute. I want to look after my, me, to go and deliver more training and support more adults in the workplace.
[:[00:13:19] Sarah: It's very, it pops up and so, and the gym is, is one place that a lot of people feel uncomfortable and a lot of people will say, I need to lose weight or I need to change my body even before I can feel comfortable going to the gym. So it's, that's even just this place like the gym. People are feeling like they have to change their body even just to get in there.
[:[00:13:43] Ross: Yeah. And it's when we're going back to the workplace, when we're going for an interview, we think about what we're going to wear. We'll maybe try on different outfits and feel a level of despair. I can't get that button fastened or is this the image I'm trying to convey? What are they going to think?
[:[00:14:37] You're this, you're that. And it spirals into how a person might see themselves. So if you're going to a job interview and you've just had that spiral and go off. That makes it really, really hard to present yourself, you know, authentically and present your best self when there's a big part of you that's, your mind is just racing with all of these attacks pulling you down.
[:[00:15:25] How did, how did you come up with that structure?
[:[00:15:53] So, from there I moved just to, okay, what are the key act processes? Which one would be the [00:16:00] next one that might flow for a person? And kind of went from there, and it might flow really well for some people, and other people might move from chapter to chapter, it might not, you know, flow exactly for them in that way.
[:[00:16:19] Ross: And then, then you talk about navigating the forest for others. And this is, this is so important. It's what can we do in our workplace environment? How can we be with other people to make it an, an overused word, to make it an inclusive space?
[:[00:17:08] And then the following week they'd come back. And they'd be completely deflated. I'd be like, okay, what happened? And many times it was something external to them that reinforced those old body messages. So they tried to step outside of their comfort zone and didn't act in, you know, service of their values.
[:[00:18:46] Ross: I'm so pleased this was, this was a section in the book because I think it's so important to. to think what the steps that those around a person could take or to help them ask for support or to help them call out someone who's maybe making a passing remark that has a reference that that takes them back to a place where they were two weeks ago, and maybe It takes them right back into their comfort zone and disappearing.
[:[00:19:25] Sarah: In the workplaces, we spend so much time in the workplace. So it's really important that changes happens there. And one thing I have noticed in certain workplaces that I've been in is there's often a lot of weight based comments. So it might be, someone loses weight and everyone's celebrating that, or someone gains weight and there's kind of a, ooh, I've even been in workplaces where they've had like the biggest loser sort of contests happening.
[:[00:20:33] Even being able to go to the person who may have been hurt by it and let them know that you know you are there for them. Absolutely.
[:[00:20:58] And I think it's so pervasive, the, the comments and the, even what some people might call microaggressions around, around weight. those throwaway comments can be quite uncomfortable, quite distressing for people.
[:[00:21:57] I'm just being nice. And even the person [00:22:00] who's receiving the nice, the compliment, it can sometimes not land how it's intended. So if you go up to someone and be like, Oh, you've lost weight. You look great. Well, what are you saying? you saying?
[:[00:22:20] Ross: I'd like to think the workplace has evolved a bit but I'm not sure it has.
[:[00:22:30] And there's so much more to people than their appearance and their weight. Like, there's so much more that could be happening in their lives. There's so much more to who they are as a person. And it's such a shame to reduce all of that down to their, their size.
[:[00:22:55] Sarah: I've had a number of good responses. A lot of people say that. While the book speaks to weight and body, a lot of the things that are covered in it can be applied to other, other areas. So a lot of the tools, they can be transferred onto other things, and I'm like, that's exactly, what I was going for.
[:[00:24:03] And I think it's important to remember that weight and health can be two separate things. So you can do health related behaviours, you can experience really big shifts in your health, and notice those body changes. And it not necessarily change anything on the scale. So teasing apart weight and health.
[:[00:24:40] Ross: yeah, absolutely agree. And in the process of writing this book and your work in general, does stuff show up for you that could get in the way?
[:[00:25:23] Are they going to judge me? All of that come up. as I was writing the book and ever since it's kind of out into the wild, I guess those fears are there. They've, they've been there all along, and I've kept going because this matters to me. People, there's such a rich complexity to people, there's so much to people, and they've got so much to give, and it's such a shame that they're not able to give, or they hold back because of how they feel about it. So if I can [00:26:00] help people let go of that, that would We'll navigate it differently and I can help create change in the world. I want to do that. And if that means me being vulnerable, so be it.
[:[00:26:30] Sarah: Thank you. That's, that's my hope is to, to impact others in a good way.
[:[00:26:56] Is there any. tip you'd leave the peace seepers with, any takeaway you'd leave with them, just to reflect on maybe.
[:[00:27:24] How do you want to be remembered? How do you want to make other people feel? And trying to connect more with that, as opposed to connecting with how you look. Oh, it's
[:[00:27:50] And now, back to the chat. Love it. Yeah, how do you want to show up in different contexts in life? Not just work, not just [00:28:00] home life. It's not always easy and in my experience it's immensely freeing as well.
[:[00:28:15] Ross: Yeah. So, Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show and being your vulnerable self and role modeling for us all what is possible for us in life and the workplace.
[:[00:28:33] Sarah: Thanks for having me and thanks for listening, Peasoopers.
[:[00:28:40] Ross: That's it. Peace Supers the second part of my chat with Sarah in the bag. Thanks so much to Sarah for being an inspiration. Please do check out her brilliant book, break the Binds of White Stigma Now. Folks, we need your help. You could support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science.
[:[00:28:59] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.
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[:[00:29:48] And scene.
[:[00:29:54] Ross: Oh, Sarah, that's phenomenal.
[:[00:29:59] Ross: [00:30:00] Oh, good.
[:[00:30:10] Ross: Thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate that, Sarah.
