If you've ever tried to give your child the ideal day by throwing a birthday party or taking them on an exciting trip, only for them to have a meltdown or complain, then this episode is for you.

In it, Devon Harris shares about how about a day spent doing mundane things with her son led him to declare it was "the best day ever"

So what was it about that day that had such a profound impact?

And how can you bring in the elements she talks about into your every day life?

We also talk about her previous work with children who were in protective services and what led her to following Aware Parenting in her own parenting and becoming a Certified Instructor.

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About Devon Harris

Devon is an Aware Parenting Instructor who specialises in coaching and consulting for families with bright and gifted children. You can find out more and contact her here: www.devonharris.com.au

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About Helena Mooney

I am a Certified Parenting Coach for mums who want to do "gentle parenting" but become frustrated and confused when it doesn't work. I give you practical, respectful and effective strategies to help you feel more confident as a mum and deeply connected as a family so you all have more fun!

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Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of parenting with play. I'm

Helena Mooney, and I am thrilled today to have a

fellow Aware Parenting colleague, Devon Harris.

Devon wrote a post recently

about quite an ordinary day, but

it her son perceived it to be the best day

ever almost. And really,

I I don't know just was it was just so thrilled by this sort of

almost mundane day and I just thought it'd be really interesting to

talk about how something that we can perceive as very ordinary

and just sort of going about doing our jobs can

actually be a a really exciting

or not exciting, really lovely day with our children. So I

thought that Devon would just be so great, and then we're also gonna talk about

some other things as well. But just this entry point of this this

post that you wrote, Devon, had a real impact on people. But first of all,

welcome. And would you like to just give a little intro about yourselves before we

dive in? Thank you, Helena. Thank you. Yeah.

A little intro about myself where where to start. I'm a

passionate child advocate. As you said, an Aware Parenting instructor,

but I started,

parenting essentially a long time before that. I got a

degree in youth studies and have been working for well

over a decade with young people, directly with young

people in a whole different range of settings. So when I

became a parent myself, I looked at different

modalities that were going to support me and landed with Aware Parenting and

yeah. So, trained and became an instructor.

Yeah. And and when you say young people, are you talking you're talking

teens, aren't you? I started with teenagers and then, oh,

no, actually, no, there was, there were babies at one stage as well. And children,

I've worked in a whole different range of places. So from state

government, I worked with child protection services, I worked with

non government organizations and even ended up working with young people coming out of

prison at one stage. Wow. So you've had a real

depth of experience with children and and so, yeah, I'd love to talk

about why what about where parenting resonated and perhaps we can

incorporate that into this post. So just to give an overview of this post

that you wrote, you were with your son. Can you just just how old is

your son? He's 9 years old. He's 9 years old.

And you had this day where you put together a you you know, what was

it? You started off and you had a client session and

he hang, he hung out in a separate room quite

happily. He then went and bought a cup of coffee for you. Then you had

a meditation group and he was quite relaxed around that. And then

you put together an Ikea flat pack bed. You

know, this is not like, woohoo, you're taking him on a wild

adventure. But what did he say to you at the end of that day?

Yeah. At the end of the day, he, yep, snuggled in bed as the

post said, and and he said to me, you know what, Devon? You might not

have all the money in the world. You might not let me have a smartphone,

but you really know how to parent, and this was the best

day. Wow.

Which resonated, I think, because we can often think, well, in

order to give our children the best day, we need to

do really cool stuff, like take them to a theme park or take them to

the beach or, you know, throw them a party or do these things

which are quite tense and it's all about them. And I

think what that day showed is it wasn't all about

your son. It was you getting some needs met, you doing

something together, but it all the attention wasn't on making him

happy. So can you talk us through how you how

you helped your son navigate the potential boredom of waiting

for you whilst you were on a client and then at a meditation class? Obviously,

this is not a day in isolation. You've been following Aware Parenting, but

what in particular do you think really helped him navigate this

day with not just getting through it, but actual enjoyment?

Look, it was a huge surprise to me at the end of the day. Things

Things like, you know, when we were putting together the flat pack bed, it wasn't

just any bed, it was a loft bed. And so it's It wasn't even his

bed? Oh, no. It's his bed, but it was a a loft bed. So like

a bunk bed, except without the bed underneath. It's it was extremely challenging.

And anyone who's ever put flat, you know, IKEA furniture together,

you know, together with another person or even by themselves knows that this is

not something that's a pleasurable experience. Most people end

up swearing or, you know, having some sort of breakdown halfway

through, which, you know, absolutely happened for us. It was a 4 and a half

hour ordeal. And that that that that that

we came through that because, well, this is what he said

to me at the end of the day. It's because that I listened, that I

was able to be really present with him with all of his different, you know,

all of the feelings that he was having right throughout the day. I was able

to stick with it and I was able to acknowledge him for the things that

he was doing inside of that as well. The ways that he was contributing to

me and, you know, to sort of look back on that day, it was like

in the morning when he went down to get my cup of tea for me

from the local cafe, It wasn't me doing the acknowledging of him. It was the

cafe staff who went, well, look at you kid down here getting your mom a

cup of tea. Aren't you great for doing that? Wow. What a great thing for

you to do. And, you know, so, you know, his cup gets a little

bit full from that. And later on at the meditation class,

well, actually it was pretty soon after we had to hustle out the door

quite quickly to get to meditation class. The meditation teacher,

who knows him a little bit, but not not very much. And it was a

full hour long meditation where we were all sitting silently,

and he was expected to sit silently as well. I told him he could he

could leave the room if he needed to, but if he was going to be

in inside with us, he needed to be quiet. And, at

the end, she invited him to come up and be the one to hit the

gong gong to let everyone know that it was time to come back. And I

saw again, you know, a little bit more, his cup was filled a bit more

by being, you know, really encouraged to be a participant

in, you know, in both of those and acknowledged for the contribution that he

was making as well. And the bit that you didn't talk about was after that,

we then went to the farmer's market, and we had to navigate our way through

the and with by this stage, it was usually, we get to the farmer's market

at 8 AM. On this day, it was like we didn't get there until 10.

And it's super crowded, people everywhere. And he's asking

me every step of the way, can I have this? Can I have that? Can

I have this? Can I have that? And I was a no. You can't. No.

You can't. No. You can't. No. You can't. All the way through.

But each time, you know, upon reflection

that I said it with a real willingness for him to have

feelings about my me saying no and for him not being able to have

things. And for me to be absolutely willing to

listen to his feelings about all of the noes that he was getting in that

instance as well. Yeah. So this is

this is real life. It's it's not just like, oh, yes, sweetie. You can have

whatever you like. You know? Just be happy. Be happy. It's like, no. You

can't have that. And no, you can't have that. So how did you listen to

him in the context of a farmer's market?

Oh, yeah. I mean, so physically, it it wasn't just me. There

were other people around who were also able to give him an empathetic

empathic look, you know, to like, oh, sweetie. I'm sorry that your mom's

not letting you have an icy pole. Oh, I'm sorry.

So I really felt like in that instance, I was being supported. You know, it

was more than more than just me. And so each time I

would just pause and get down to his level. And now

that he's 9, when I get down to his level, he's actually taller than

me. And, you know, hand on my heart, and I say,

you know, so I'll say no. And and often that, you know,

that day, it wasn't the kindest no that I could have done.

It was, you know, a little bit abrupt. It's like, there's a lot of people

around. There's a lot of lot of activity going on. I just need the weekly

groceries and to get out of here. But each time, you know, no. And

then I'd see that he'd have some feelings. I'd stop. I'd get down. I go,

poof. I really hear how much you want that. And, you know, I'm

so sorry that you can't have that. I'm not willing to not willing to buy

that right now, but I'm so willing to listen to your feelings.

And, you know, that that would she be like, no. It's okay. Let's move

on. Let's let's keep going. And, yeah, that just

happens over and over and over again, on that day. I I

I swear it would have been at least half a dozen times that he asked

for different things that I was a no to. And he managed to hold it

in. I mean, this is not done in isolation. You've obviously done a lot of

listening to big feelings, you know,

days, weeks, years prior to this. But I think it's really

helpful to know that you can say no and you can offer empty. Because, I

mean, I know that I catch myself

because I'm worried that the empathy then is gonna open up

this whole can of worms that, you know, in a situation like the farmer's

market, I'm just not prepared to go into.

But actually the opposite happened with your son. The empathy

was sufficient to help him to get through that.

I mean, he still asked again another time, but he he managed to hold it

together. He wasn't having a flaming tantrum on the floor. I mean, he's 9, but

still 9 year olds can have big feelings. And he and he can. You know,

I'm so willing for him to do that at the farmer's market. Like, it's okay.

Like, it's a really is quite a safe space for us. There's, you know, I

know a lot of the people there at somewhere that we go every Sunday. They

know that I'm an Aware Parenting instructor. They are fully aware

of the way that I do business and I don't have any qualms

anymore around. I mean, there's plenty of visitors there too. So, you know,

technically I should be embarrassed, but I think, yeah, after you've been doing this and

practicing this for, like you said, days, weeks, months, years,

the the functionality of it and the, benefit that I get

from it far outweighs any embarrassment

or any inconvenience that I might face

now as a result. And granted, I didn't have anything immediately after the farmers

market. So I had, I had somewhere else to go. It

might have been a little bit different under those circumstances. But since it

was like, okay, you know, I can move through this space, I can I can

do this, and I've got time to listen? If you wanna have attention right now,

I'm here. Like, I will listen. And And I suppose

also by having had your client call in the morning, your

meditation, particularly your meditation, you're filling your cup.

So it's not all about your son. It is about, well, I

now feel in a good place so that I can then be in a better

position to listen to him. Whereas if you were frazzled and like, I I've got

so much to do. Let's get to the farmer's market, then there wouldn't be that

perhaps so much ease. But I mean, you're much more relaxed

person than me. But, you know, also having had your meditation, you filled up

your cup first, so then you've got more to be able to

give to your son. Yeah. Absolutely. But see,

meditation's a tricky beast. Yeah. For anyone who meditates out there, we

know that it's it's kind of like being listened to listening

to feelings. It's cumulative. Sometimes I can meditate and actually

brings up a bunch of a bunch of stuff for me, and I can

actually be a little bit more on edge afterwards. So sometimes it's a,

it's a good thing. Sometimes not such a good, not such a cup filler.

It can be more of a, oh, that's made that's left me feeling a little

bit raw and a little bit open. I wouldn't ordinarily meditate for an hour. I

mean, you know, like ordinarily as a as a mom,

it's difficult to find that time. It's just this

this particular one that's just started on a Sunday morning in my town

happens to be extraordinarily convenient

and I'm testing it out and seeing if I can do it otherwise. I just

meditate 15 minutes a day. And that really ensures

that I don't that I have less of those, you know, being left a

bit raw, feelings afterwards, and,

you know, more able to move through move through my day. It's

really interesting you're saying that because, my pre the I've

just interviewed a client of mine who who works with mums and couples

and she her meditation practice actually helped her to

to implement Aware Parenting a lot more. So it's really interesting that now you're the

second one consecutively that talking about the benefits of

meditation. So I think I'd like to dive into that more perhaps in another episode

because I just think it's yeah. It's something I know when I do it, I

feel amazing and I haven't been doing it recently and don't feel so good as

a result of it. So anybody listening, meditate. But yeah.

So I hear you that it's not the sort of the be all and end

all, but it definitely contributes to how you can

be with him. And then the flat pack furniture.

So did he have a meltdown? Like, during this this course of this, you

know, supposedly best day ever, did he have a meltdown that

you needed to listen to Big Feelings? We both had

we both Both had. I'm not gonna call them

meltdowns, but there were terse and tense

moments of but, yeah, definitely no full blown,

tantrums. It was, but there were breakdowns. I

had to leave the room a number of times I got on the call, I

got on a, left a message from my listening partner, just a 3 minute

message where I swore a lot about, you

know, Ikea beds and what on earth were they thinking.

And, you know, so there yeah. We

managed it, I think, throughout that. But,

again, I was just I was so willing to

hear any tantrums,

appeased. Yeah. But it was a it was a it was an

ordeal, 4 and a half hours worth of putting a bed together,

was putting things on backwards, putting it on the wrong way around, getting it all

set up, and only to find out that we had to pull it apart you

know, pull half of it apart again to to put this missing piece

in. We all feel your pain, Devon. We all feel your

pain. But, yeah, that's interesting too.

So when you did have a hard time, you called a friend, you

called your listing partner, you left a message. So it's not like you even spoke

to them, but you have managed to have that opportunity to, like,

about your feelings, and then you could come back. And

I'm sorry. Sort of just like but and also the fact that you were willing

to listen to his feelings and to be empathetic

means that there is a spaciousness for our children. And actually

because when our children often, you know, get into that spiral of big feelings, it's

because we're tense. And so the more tense we are, then it sort of just

goes off and off and off, and then you're just caught

in this spiral. So the fact that you could well, a, be in a better

place to begin with, but also break that, leave you left the room,

you called a friend, your listening partner, then you could come back. I just think

that that just shifts the energy for our children so much. Mhmm.

Mhmm. Yeah. I'm glad you highlighted that about the listening partner too.

Like she didn't yeah. She my listening partner didn't even need to respond

to me or even be present. Like, it's another way that

we've, you know, been listening to each other for such a long time now. I

think almost 2 years with this listening partner that, you know,

I know the space, even sometimes even just thinking about what I will say

to her can be enough to displace or not to displace, but to,

you know, allow those feelings to move on and give me greater

access back to the, back to the centered calm part of me. That's, that's

really willing to listen to my, my child's complaints and

his and his problems and the things that he's facing.

Speaking of children, mine's just making a quicker quicker.

Come and say a quick hello. Just recording a podcast episode. Alright.

I'll see you later. Bye there. What uniform is it? Sports.

It's early morning here in England.

Actually, just even just that example there of my son coming in. Because initially I

was like, oh god. He's coming in. He's disturbing. This is quite

annoying. And then I'm going, I'm on a parenting podcast, Helena. Let's not be like

that. And just welcome him in, just listening,

then he can go off again. Whereas I mean, that he was asking a

distinct question and he's 92. When we give space to our

children, it's actually not as bad as sometimes we can think it's going

to be. In fact, it's actually the opposite, and that's what our children

are needing. They can rest in our energy, and then they can go on about

their day. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. I like I talk about

this a lot. Like, you can't I say this to my child, you can't actually

interrupt me. Like, even when I'm meditating, if there's something that's really, you know,

that you need to talk to me about, just whisper it in my ear. Like,

say, let's see what happens. I'll either tell you, hey, that one can wait or

no, that's, you know, that needs attention now. So I'm really

clear with my child too, that there's no such thing as an interruption. What you

have to say and, what you, what you've got going on is

important and matters. Yeah.

Please bring it to me. Wow. That's

wonderful. So what do you think about that day? We were just starting to talk

about this just before we hit record button. And what do you think about was

about that day that made it so great for him?

And we'd and we'd said that it it wasn't this joyful day. Yeah. He wasn't

it wasn't child centered. It wasn't we weren't at the beach. We weren't at the

amusement park. Like you said, we were doing the mundane things.

We were just moving through our day. And I think there were 2 really

big things that I reflected on afterwards was

one, he was able to make really meaningful contributions

to me. He was able to support me in

very real and tangible ways. Going down and getting me a cup of tea. Like,

that was a big that's a big deal. It's something he's just started doing

recently, something he's extremely proud of. And, know, he he

gets to take the phone down and pay with it, you know, do the

whatever Apple pay that he does. You know, there's a lot of agency

and a lot of autonomy in there, but also the bigger thing is that he

gets to contribute to me. He knows how much I love chai tea. He knows

how much I need it to start my day.

And it's it's a really big thing, and

it's not it's not yep. I was just

gonna say because we do that for toddlers. We, you know, we help we try

and get them especially if there's another baby and we go, can you help them?

And we make that such a focal point for toddlers. And yet I think

somehow we sort of lose sight of that as children get older. We sort of

forget that they want that they can and that they want to. So to hear

that again for a 9 year old because, you know, so many of us complain,

why they never do anything around the house? So to hear

that, actually, children do like to contribute. We know that about

little children and that's a great way to engage them, you know, particularly if you

have, like, a new baby or you need some help then. So to have that

when they're older, they do like to contribute to us. It's not a

boring chore. Oh, god. I gotta do this for mom. It's it can be really

exciting. Mm-mm. Absolutely. And he gets full choice. You know?

It's like, you don't have to do this. This is something that will make a

huge difference to me, and I'm giving you the opportunity to do it if you

want to. If you don't, no worries. I'll get my chai afterwards. So

it's not a demand or an expectation. It's it's more of an offer. You know?

Here's something you can do if you want to. Otherwise, you can be

bored for the next hour. Not it's not quite

like that. That is you know, we I did, you know, we did discuss the

night before the things that he could do for that hour that I was gonna

be on the call. And with that caveat that, hey. An interruption from you is

you're allowed to interrupt me. I prefer you not to. But if you

need to, I'm right here. You come in a new city.

And that we talked about the different things that he could do with that app.

Sorry, Helena. I just That's alright. That's alright. I was thinking I didn't know whose

Internet was. So, yes, you talked about things that you could that he could

do. Yep. And and

yeah. So that that was an option for him and it was something that he

chose to do. And so inside of that choice, he, you know, he found himself

agency, he found himself, you know, he got recognized for it when he was down

at down at the shop. And yeah, that was one of the things that really

made this our best day. But the second thing that I

identified was around, you know, the putting the bed together,

was this extraordinary opportunity for us to work as a team.

He wants to not only does he want to contribute, he also wants to collaborate.

He wants to find opportunities where he can work to get together. And

both of these, you know, the contribution and the collaboration, both of them need to

be meaningful. Right? Like they need to have real purpose in the world. It's

not, you know, by the time they get to 9 years old, it's like, hey,

I actually want this to be something that's going to make a difference. Like, if

I'm gonna use my precious time and my precious energy on something, I want it

to be something that's actually meaningful. And it's

something tangible as well, isn't it? And, I mean, the advantage also is that it's

something for him too. But it is something tangible in getting to build

and, you know, that that's that's great.

Anything else about that day? Yeah. I think

teamwork so it was definitely the listening. So he identified that it was listening to

listening to his feelings and him understanding that all of him was

welcome right throughout the day. But yeah, so the teamwork, the, you know, the

collaboration, the, you know, meaningful

contribution to me as his mum. And then, yeah, being

listened to, being validated every step of every every step of the

way. And I realized that I did do that right throughout the day where he

was able to have choice, he was given choice, where he wasn't

able to have choice, he was given empathy for not having any of

those choices. So, yeah, like, you know, he said you are the best parent. I

was like, wow, I actually really nailed it today. I really, this is me

really nailing it. I didn't do all of those things. The traditional, you know,

I nailed it parenting things like taking them to an amusement park or, you

know, buying them an enormous gift. But it was, it was this, yeah, I

nailed it on the, on these aware parenting levels and, and

it was reflected by him saying this was the best day. Yeah. That's

so because it's, you know, it's so lovely to hear that validation from our children.

We need it every now and again because what we do is a lot.

And so it is important that we receive that. I'd also I'd love to there's

there's so much I'd like to talk to you about. I think what brought you

to Aware Parenting in the first place? Because now we've sort of seen

how you can you you you use Aware Parenting with your your

child, or you are an Aware Parent with your child in that way.

But having worked with the children in the

in the places that they were, that

that would have been really challenging, I would imagine. You're working with children, very vulnerable

children, who have had a really hard time. So what

was it about Aware Parenting that you went, I have I really

wanna do that because I've seen how, you

know, children can have really challenging

experiences and I I wanna find the best way to be with my child.

Yes. So it was the element that the trauma that being trauma informed.

And so throughout all of my work, that was the that was the key piece.

It's like, hey, none of these children are misbehaving. They're just traumatized.

They're just playing, playing out their trauma and trying to find a way to release

and to, and to offload that so so they can come back into balance.

And, you know, throughout my training, my training was very much, you know, youth

studies, sits alongside,

social work and social work, you know, looks at the individual, whereas youth studies, we

look at the environment, we're constantly looking at the environment around these children and

going, well, hang on. What is it? How's this contributing to what's going on for

this person and for this child and how do we, how can we,

augment and adjust this so they can have their needs met? And then

we can have a look at their behavior on the other side of, of

providing the protection they need and and and and meeting

their developmental needs. So when I, yeah, when I

came to parenting, I, you know, like with anything in

my life, anything, I need a structure. I need guidelines.

I need coaches. I need mentors. I need people on the path. So

I, when I came to parenting, it was no different to, you know, my health

or my finances or I got anything

else in my life. I've got this system for it. So I looked around at

a number of different systems and aware parenting was the one that made the

most sense through that, you know, because it's trauma informed, because we do

have that attachment parenting piece, which is just absolutely

foundational, you know, prompt responsiveness to and,

fulfilling needs. Right? But together with that, hey, we're

also gonna recognize that trauma plays a role here, and that

trauma is, you know, not what we think it is. It's anything

that the child perceives as to be traumatic, and that that

needs to have a place to go and needs to be listened to,

in order to have it resolved. So that's what, yeah, that's what really

brought me to Aware Parenting and had me commit to Aware Parenting

and, just, you know, follow through a 100% all the way to becoming

an instructor and now sharing it with other people. And now you work with

other families so they they can do that too.

So diving more into that, the trauma informed

baseness of wear parenting. Because I mean, I came to it because I just didn't

know what to do with my child. So, yeah, I I totally agree with you

about needing structure because I knew what I didn't want to do, but I didn't

know what to replace it with. The

trauma aspect of it wasn't as big a part for me

because that I had no experience, you know, in a in a

bigger sense of the trauma word. I just wanted to know how to stop my

child from hitting without resorting to harsh punishments. But I'd love to

hear more about your perspective because,

you know, you you've worked with traumatised children. And so

seeing the benefits of Aware Parenting, how would you sort of now describe

that and see the benefits of it,

by being so trauma informed? Because I have to say since I had my daughter

15 years ago, there weren't as many people talking about this as there are

now. And so, you know, the the vast majority of the

population are now more aware of the need for trauma

informed care. But how does that,

what does that mean to you and why is that so important and how do

you see that importance and and how we can incorporate that

into our lives with our children? Look. It's it's absolutely

vital. And, you know, another small piece of the puzzle for me was that I

was also yoga trained and in yoga, we

call, we call traumas or,

patterns know, that show up in the body. We call them samskaras. And so

when I got that piece alongside the training that I'd done and the work that

I'd done, and then I had yoga and then I came to parenting, I was

like, how am I actually going to avoid handing over these

things? It's, it's very innocent in the way that we do it. And it's, very

innocent and the way that, trauma is built up and, you know, in my

work, I saw it in, it was in Technicolor, you know, the,

the amount of trauma. It was capital t trauma. Like, there weren't there wasn't anything

small about what was happening for these guys and

and young women as well. And it's

just, there comes a point where there's nothing

else that you can do. Like you try managing it in

any other way, the trauma is just gonna keep showing up. It's gonna keep

driving. It's gonna keep

augmenting behavior. It's it's the lens through which they make meaning out

of everything. And unless you deal with that, it's just gonna be on repeat for

the rest of their lives. And as they get bigger,

so does the impact they can make with the with the behavior

that they that they have. And it's it's

vital. It's vital that we address that as a first port of call.

And how do you see Aware Parenting addressing that?

Oh, through empathic listening. I mean, the number one way

to address trauma is just to witness it and to allow

it to be go, oh my goodness, I so see you. I really see

how much that hurt because when, you know,

the events themselves are not inherently traumatic.

It's when we're denied, you know, that

denied that the experience happened or it hasn't been, you know, it

hasn't been accepted by a loving adult around us that it that, oh my

goodness, I see what happened there. I I hear you and I and I see

how upset you are feeling by it. When that doesn't happen,

that's when trauma takes root. Otherwise, it can be water off a duck's

back. So the more I can acknowledge my child, yeah, the the

less that those things stick. I think that

that's that's a really interesting point because sometimes well, often we can think I

need to do something. I need to fix. I need to

help the child or the person to do something

within themselves so that they're not feeling this pain. But

actually, not just, but the

act of acknowledging somebody else's pain, of

really being with them whilst they feel the feelings, that in itself

is transformative. Because there's so many things like, wait, take a breath

and do this and go on. And actually, you know, that we're trying to

busy the person or ourselves from our discomfort about the

other person's discomfort. So to actually be with somebody

whilst they're upset or they're angry,

that in itself, it is possibly one of the most

powerful things we can do. Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. So the

witnessing, the turning towards, the acknowledging, validating,

Yeah. Takes takes the charge out, takes the sting out, and

allows a person to then make their own empowered meaning

about the event that they've just been through.

I mean, just on a parent child interaction,

I often have parents saying to me, 'Ah!' But it seems to make them worse.

You know, when I when I sort of offer empathy, it makes it

worse and it and it is it makes it it's more distressing for the child

for me to do that. So I'd love to hear your response to that.

It's we've got a little chant that we do in our house.

We will I will sing and I'll often do it in my head

unless my child's in a good enough space, but it's better better out than in.

You know? Better out than in. Uh-huh. Better out than in. Better

out than in. Uh-huh. And that

so it's ridiculous. There's dads that goes with it too. Don't get me started. Of

course. It's that that the the feelings have the

same flavor coming out as they did going in. And as you're

releasing them, if it was hard receiving them, it's

hard when they come up and up and out. And often it's

like an in the act of receiving, in the act of, releasing the

feelings, our child will go, oh, excellent. And I'm going to release this one

and this one and this one from last week and that one from last year

and this one as well at the same time. So what you're getting, what

what's coming up and out can often be an amplified or,

you know, what we perceive as a disproportionate response, But there's just

I just have such deep trust when I see my child have this, what I,

you know, might otherwise think is a disproportionate response as, oh my goodness.

This is brilliant. Better out than in.

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So anybody who's listening, who's

worried about, is this making

my child more distressed? That I think that's the big fear. Because of

course nobody wants to see their child upset. Nobody wants to see another person upset.

And that for me was the big shift that I needed to do within

myself was going, panicking that my child is crying

to, yes. My child is crying. They are

releasing it with me. This is healing. So I

love that mantra better out than in. I mean, it could also be related to

farts. Now I think of my little 9 year old boy,

Patty Whitmer actually from Hand in Hand, she often describes, you know,

big releasing as like an emotional poo. Yes. We

are releasing. And I think that that's a really, it's a, it's quite a

gross metaphor, but it's actually a very helpful one because we all

need to go to the blue. So we we do

this is so necessary for our children and for ourselves, which is why, you know,

you having a little mini moment with your listening partner, you, you

know, having that opportunity just in that little moment to release that

the initial tension there. It's so helpful and we

don't have to think of all these other tricks and tips on how to help

our children calm down. We just need to

resource ourselves to be able to be with our child whilst they are

having this painful, but ultimately

healing release. And we need to practice like, this is

a skill that we practice. I remember when I first started doing it, I, I

was also caught up in a lot of the judgments, even though it had all

of this training and all of this experience and knew that it was better out

than in, I still was like, oh, is this, is this harmful? Is this

hurting? So there's a practice that goes with it as well. And, you know, I've

actually got, you know, the I've I've got like some physical things that I

do in my body that sort of, I don't wanna say brace myself for

it, but that I set myself up for it in order to be able to

be present and to stay out of judgment, to

stay, you know, in a in that place of this is really good. This

is really helpful. Do you mind sharing what you do? I have a

little mantra in my head. I go connect, connect, connect.

Especially when my child is being really foul,

I have to actively remind myself, connect and and

I visualise that I'm diving in, like it's an act

of I'm diving off a board and I'm diving into the water, I'm diving into

the tantrum because then that sort of allows me to be open to it or

within myself to really be present. Yeah. I love

that. And having those visualizations along with the mantras, I

think is extraordinarily helpful. Mine's a little bit different, but yours sounds

extraordinary, like really powerful. I do this. I go, I

will go into 3 60 degree view. So I'll kind of pretend that I can

see out the back of my head. Right. And that's the first thing I do.

I'm like, feelings come in. And it sort of makes me just back up

a little bit because the first thing I want to do is create space, Right?

Like, I'm, I can be quite an intense person at times.

I can be quite like, oh, what's going on? What's this? It's like, I'm I'm

just gonna go into this, like, posture of curiosity and go, I wonder what's about

to happen here. I wonder what's and it's almost like I'm inviting it forward. It

takes my energy back. Then I'll just breathe down into my, you

know, like all the way down into my hips, down into the,

my feet and out to the edges of the room. And I'm just like, my

mantra then is I'm the largest nervous system in the room.

Right? Like, I'm I'm gonna hold this, and I'm gonna hold it with the whole

I'm gonna hold this. And that's actually something that I got from a client, which

is very cool. So I'm the largest nervous system in the room, and then I

extend out. So instead of extend I'm maintaining eye contact, but

I do this sort of like, ex you know, imaginary

extension from my gut to his gut. And I'll just be like, right.

We're connected. I've got you. We're here. Go for it. Like, what have

you got? Wow. Yeah. Gosh.

As I'm listening to you, I'm going, imagine. Imagine if we'd had that when we

were little. That would just be it's life changing.

It's absolutely life changing. And I think we can devalue

our role as mothers and go, oh, well, I need to take

my child to a therapist and, you know, that might be the, the right path,

but also acknowledging just how much

deep work we do as mothers, as parents,

with our children, it's quite extraordinary what we can

do. And I think really acknowledging that it is

hard work. It is hard being with a child having

a big, big emotional release, whether they're crying or whether they're

raging. And acknowledging

the work we do, but also the impact that that has on on our

children is just so profound.

Yeah. The space that we create for for them to be able to come

forward, you know, it really is. And it and it is this there

is know, a lot of work that needs to be done here, but

also, you know, I think that we really I

think we're prone to overestimating what we can do in the short term,

but underestimating what we can do in the long term, which is true

for so many different projects, but it's the same with parenting and, and this,

you know, particularly if we're able to start Aware Parenting, when our babies were babies,

that's great. But if we come to it later, we've this connection

takes time. This connection, you know, it takes practice and we can

build it. And but but we've got time. Right? Like, this is a lot parenting

is a long game. If we mess it up today, we can, you know,

we can get it right tomorrow. And as long as over time, we're more

consistently getting it right, that we've that there's

room to move around in there. There's room to get it right. There's room for

it to really flourish into something amazing. And

I love that because that takes the pressure off. Because again, I have many moms

go, oh, I did this to my child yesterday. Is that mean

I'm gonna damage my child and the relationships ruined? I'm going and

what I can offer as perspective is going, it's one incident.

It might even be multiple instance, to be honest. We all stuff up on a

regular basis, which is why I think so many people

resonated with your post because it's like,

oh, I can have good days doing mundane, but also

we all stuff up regularly. Yeah. But there is that

opportunity for repair and to help our children heal from that. It doesn't mean

that we'll get, you know, it's damaging our

relationship. Sure. It's not ideal, but that's life. And it's

not about providing this perfect

child centred environment the whole time. You know, we have lives, we have feelings,

and our children experience difficulties in the world too. But it's so it's

giving them that space to come back and to heal.

Yes. Yes. And and not being perfect, I think is actually a really important

message to give to our child as well. And to, you know, when we mess

up and we acknowledge that we've messed up and we offer the apology, we offer

the repair, we're giving them a valuable life tool with and which

is and and full permission for them to be also, you know, you can be

really great and you can make mistakes, like, just like

me. It's totally okay. We can all do this. And this is how

we, like, you know, it's inherent in learning that we

fail, you know, the overwhelming majority of the time. Like that's

just part of learning a new skill or learning something new. It's different when you're,

you know, I'm now almost, you know, 10 years into my Aware Parenting journey.

I I I fail less often now. Still fail. I remember at the beginning,

it was just constant. It was constant. And

that's it's it's What am I

doing here? That's why I don't know what I'm doing.

Yeah. I've ruined this child. This is Yeah. This is just the

worst like, I can see I can see the gap. I can see the, you

know, where I needed to be with the Beautiful Aware Parenting guidelines and I could

see where I was and I was like, woah,

this is a disaster. Yes. And over

time and practice. And I often say, just start off by listening to 2

minutes of crying. You know? And and just do what you can manage and then

stop. And then and then do what you normally do to distract and just stop.

But that, you know, your chance then had a 2 minute chunk of crying with

you and that in itself is healing. And then you can build up and up

and up and to, you know, full length,

full length, big tantrums.

Devan, that's so helpful. I'm conscious of time. Unfortunately, I could carry on chatting.

We'll have a we'll have another part because there's so much else I want to

talk to you about. But I think, yeah, just key takeaways

is our days with our children, they don't have to be magical

as in all about them. We can we

can go about our days whilst staying connected to our child,

as long as we resource ourselves and give our children the

space to have their feelings when we can manage

it. And knowing that actually giving that space can actually

prevent a lot of melt a lot of tantrums. I know you don't use the

word meltdowns, I do. But, you know, it can prevent it because our energy is

different. Whereas when we're tense and like, no. You

can't. Then that then that sets this whole different spiral. Whereas rather

than, oh, sweetie. I know you really wanted it and you

still can't have it. You know, that's a such different

energy for our children that if they've got bubbling feelings then they might use it

to offload. But otherwise, they might just go, oh, okay.

Can I have that one instead? No. You can't do it again. But it's

different. It's it's a very different quality.

Anything else you wanna share about takeaways? And and I've, you know, and

also the interesting perspective that you've had, which I haven't had. I haven't worked

with children, you know, with extra trauma with with trauma

traumatic lives and, and the challenges that they've gone

through and then and really learnt what is beneficial for them.

And I loved also what you were saying about how your first role

job in that role was to look at the environment. It's like the child is

doing the best they can in that environment. So what can we do to

improve the environment so that the child can

behave in a different, you know, more helpful way for everybody.

And my other takeaway, I just loved your description, was

just the act of listening. The act of empathy.

That is what our children need and that is what we

don't need to do the tips and tricks. It's the listening.

What would what what would you like to share before we finish? Oh, I

think you all of that beautifully. Thank you so much for guiding and

bringing forth such a beautiful generative conversation. It was so wonderful

to be able to speak with you. Thank you. Oh, my pleasure. I'm so glad

you have we're not we didn't actually end up talking about what we were going

to talk about, so we would talk about that another time. I just

yeah. Yeah. There's such richness. So thank you, Devon, for,

for sharing. And, yeah. I really appreciate you coming on and thank you for

the work that you do with parents and with your own with your own son.

It's the ripple effect is just

immense. So thank you. And thank

you for listening, and we will see you. I shall see you again next

time. Take care. Bye.