Hieu Minh Ngo, a former cybercriminal turned cyber threat investigator, shares his remarkable journey from the dark depths of hacking to a profound commitment to cybersecurity. In this episode, we delve into Hieu's transformation, which commenced with his early fascination with computers in Vietnam and evolved into illicit activities on the dark web. Following a significant prison sentence, Hieu emerged with renewed purpose, dedicating himself to combating cybercrime and educating others about online safety. His experience highlights the critical importance of mentorship and community in guiding young hackers towards ethical paths. Through his work with the Vietnamese government and various organizations, Hieu is now actively shaping a safer digital landscape while inspiring the next generation to utilize their skills for good.

In this episode of the Security by Default podcast, host Joe Carson interviews Hieu Minh Ngo, a former cyber-criminal turned cybersecurity advocate. Hieu shares his journey from a curious teenager in Vietnam to a successful hacker, his time in prison, and his eventual redemption as he now works to help others avoid the pitfalls he faced. He discusses the importance of honesty, mentorship, and using one's skills for good, emphasizing the need for awareness in cybersecurity and the potential for change in the lives of young hackers.

Takeaways

• Hieu Minh Ngo transitioned from a cyber-criminal to a cybersecurity advocate.
• His journey began with curiosity about computers and the internet.
• He faced severe consequences for his hacking activities, including imprisonment.
• Prison became a time for self-reflection and personal growth for Hieu.
• He emphasizes the importance of being honest with oneself.
• After prison, he was recruited by the Vietnamese government for cybersecurity work.
• Hieu now mentor’s young hackers to use their skills for good.
• He believes in the power of community and positive influences.
• Hieu encourages young hackers to participate in bug bounty programs.
• He stresses that good things will happen when you do the right thing.

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction to Cybercrime and Transformation
• 11:56 The Journey from Hacking to Cybersecurity
• 23:48 The Dark Web and Identity Theft
• 29:46 Finding Purpose in Prison
• 31:41 The Journey to Redemption
• 35:59 Consequences and Redemption
• 37:27 Life After Prison: A New Beginning
• 42:31 Using Skills for Good
• 49:23 Awards and Recognition
• 51:22 Future Aspirations and Mentorship

The dialogue unfolds with an engaging introduction from the host, Joe Carson, who expresses his excitement about welcoming Hieu Minh Ngo, a guest with a compelling narrative. Hieu, a former cybercriminal turned cybercrime investigator, recounts his remarkable journey that began during his adolescence in Vietnam. His early curiosity about computers and the Internet led him down a dark path where he engaged in illegal activities on the dark web. He shares vivid memories of his past, including the thrill of hacking and the eventual consequences that landed him in prison for nearly seven years. Through introspective reflections, Hieu emphasizes the importance of honesty to oneself, a lesson he learned during his incarceration. Hieu's transformation is marked by his commitment to using his skills for good, as he now works with the Vietnamese government and engages in community outreach to educate others on cybersecurity. His story serves as a powerful reminder of the potential for redemption and the significance of guiding the next generation of hackers toward positive uses of their talents.

Takeaways:

• Hieu Minh Ngo's transformation from a cybercriminal to a cybersecurity investigator exemplifies the profound impact of personal change.
• The importance of fostering curiosity and learning in young hackers to guide their skills towards constructive paths.
• Engagement in bug bounty programs is essential for aspiring hackers to develop their skills ethically and effectively.
• The collaboration between former cybercriminals and law enforcement can significantly enhance crime prevention strategies.
• The role of community support in rehabilitation and personal growth is vital for individuals with troubled pasts.
• Raising awareness about cybersecurity can drastically reduce the incidence of cybercrime in society.

Hi everyone.

Welcome back to another episode of the Security By Default podcast.

I'm the host of the show, Joe Carson.

And it's always a pleasure to be here, bringing very amazing people, interesting guests, people who really change the world.

And I've been really excited about this episode.

Somebody, a friend of mine, who recommended that I get in touch with this person and bring them on the podcast to share their story.

So it's an honest and a pleasure to meet you.

I'll pass it over to you.

Better for you to share who you are, what you do and share a little bit for the audience, your hacker origin, how you got into the industry.

Yes.

Thank you, Tan.

Thank you, Joseph Carson.

And I'm glad to be here today.

My name is Hugh Mingo.

Currently I'm working as a cyber terrorist investigator.

My background is kind of a little bit special.

I was a cybercriminal more than 10 years ago.

I was running dark web forums and I was also like selling us identity to other hackers as well too.

And I got locked up in the US for like almost seven years in prison.

So when early in your career, how did you get started?

What was the kind of journey?

I mean, you know, many even, even myself really early in my career.

Right.

You're always, you've got curiosity, you're exploration, you've got, you've got this kind of like passion for exploration.

Where would your start?

You know, like long story short, right, I got started in the field of hacking when I was like 13, 14 years old.

And everything kind of started out of curiosity and also the passion that I have for computer science and growing up as a just a normal kid in a little town in Vietnam, it's called Canh Ran.

And I was growing up over there during my middle school.

The first time I got in touch with computer when I was like 14 years old.

And that's, that's what one of my first computer back then, you know, like we always, we having like personal kind of personal computer, like desktop.

Yep.

Something very luxury more than 15, 20 years ago.

And I, my family, you know, I got lucky that I, I was growing up in the family that they was having a little electronics store in Vietnam.

They selling like TV feature and radios and also computers.

And from that I was started to wondering about the Internet and the computer, how it works, how they can build this computer, how they can build this software.

And I started to exploit the Internet.

But back then Internet is very expensive.

Very, very costly.

Even, even when I started I was, I was chatting with a friend and we were talking about dial up.

It was like.

Dial up?

Yeah.

Dial up is something very glaring.

Was very expensive.

And you were always looking for how to get the cheapest.

Right.

What was the best time of day to access what was the, the cheapest rate or who had free access.

And you tried to connect to their.

All kind of chicks anyway, you know, like back then, you know, because Internet so expensive.

I remember like $5 for one hour until the Internet died up.

And the sound of the die ups modem is, you know, I still remember that.

Still printed in our heads.

Right.

It's still here in my head, you know, but something is kind of a memory, you know, like it's kind of in my, in my childhood, you know, that's, I never forget.

And I remember you know, during the nighttime, basically in the midnight, there's no Internet and you know, need, need the money.

But back then, you know, I don't know how to make money online.

And that's why I wondering, you know, how we can get you know like free Internet access, Free Internet dial accounts.

Yep.

And I went to the one of the Internet cafe in my little town and I was search for that tool and searching for the people in that community if they can share that tool for me.

And suddenly you know, I found out, you know, there is some website that they sharing this tool.

But back then, you know, like I don't know how this tool work, I don't know about programming, I just use it.

So I use it to scan the Internet, you know, around my area to get in the Internet dial accounts for free.

But then I was using that for a month or two, being on the Internet all day long for free.

And suddenly the Internet service provider in Vietnam, they send a code paper kind of warning to my parents house and they, they were so surprised and upset at me because in that document they say, you know, in this house somebody was stealing the Internet accounts from other companies and using that kind of unauthorized access.

Yep.

And my parents, they was very upset and then they yelling at me and they say but you know, at that time I was so young and then very childish, you know.

And then my parents, they, they so worried.

That's why you know, they still pay for the fight.

Okay, that's a lot of money.

That's a lot.

Yes, a lot of money.

Back then it could be, nowadays it could be like equally like 50,000 USD easily.

I think an inflation rate is probably close.

Yeah, inflation rate could be like that, like more than 15 years ago.

So I guess, you know, like.

But then my parents, basically my dad, he said yeah, he think you know, I should be sent to Ho Chi Minh City to learn more computer in the right way.

Okay.

And then they sent me to my uncle house and I was living there during the summertime in my senior in middle, middle, middle kind of in the middle school when I was like eighth grade and I was living there for three months with my uncle at a little apartment.

And my uncle he got a computer saw selling hardware and software for other company.

And I learned what was learning a lot, you know like how to build computer forms, right.

Like put on the mainboard, on the rams, on the cpu, on the chips together, stuff like that.

You have to fix that.

Very similar to my childhood, right.

So I was learning a lot about that.

It was fun.

Then I, I was learning about programming as well too.

One of my first website I, I built is also under my nickname HughPC.com QPC.

Yes, that's you.

I was, was selling free shopware on that website for all the people and it was fun, you know to be one of my first website and to learn about programming.

It's very cool.

So I, you know, keep learning there.

And when I finish the now before I finished the summertime in Ho Chi Minh City, I met up this guy at the Internet cafe in Ho Chi Minh City.

And I was passing to his dark screen, you know and I was wondering what kind of forums and website he was browsing to.

And I was asking him and he answered me, he told me it is underground hacking forums in Vietnam and also in prison.

And I was like wow, yeah, that's something new.

Something I never know before.

I just know like regular IT forums but then we have forums.

We don't use Facebook or Twitter, right?

Nope.

It was bulletin boards, forums, forums, chat rooms.

Chat rooms, right.

And it's fun.

I told him, you know, help me to open an account over there because you have to be vouch, you have to be invited.

So I got my first account, the underground hacking forum under my alias.

I learned a lot from them thankfully.

And I got back to my little town Cameron to finish my middle school but I was still hacking.

So every night I was begging my parents to give me some money so I can went to the Internet cafe because back then I remember when I in the last year of my middle school, the Internet getting better, you know, we have like high speed Internet Faster and cheaper.

They call the adsl right Ad Internet and But I have to go to like Internet cafe to have that right?

So I went there and I, I didn't play game.

I didn't you know went to any like regular forum anymore.

I just on the in underground forums all night long and talking to other hackers and it was fun.

I was learning from them and I was learning a lot of hacking techniques and from there everything changed me.

You know, everything changed completely.

I was writing like hacking ebooks to share with other people and it just for fun, share for free.

And I was hacking into like many, many, many websites just to put my, my kind of my aliens or my information right there.

You know, you got hacked by UPC stuff like that, you know, catch something very stupid because back then you know like when you hack the people there is no laws at all.

There isn't even like no cyber crime laws in Vietnam.

Even for me when I started getting right why switch to.

From being assistant administrator to switching into security.

And we traced them, we'd literally trace them back to the house and it ended up being about a 13 or 14 year old kid.

But the country where we traced back to there was no laws so and that was I mean in most of even the thousands, many countries didn't have updated laws.

Especially in emerging countries even even today there's quite a few countries that still don't have updated.

That actually has, has you know, abuse of computer misuse acts and stuff like that.

There's still countries today that don't have laws to prohibit hacking.

Wow, I didn't know that well.

But anyway I was hacking left and right because back then you know vulnerabilities of this system everywhere, very easy to exploit, very easy to get in and get out.

It look like your house, you can get in anytime you want or you can get out anytime you want.

There's no like no security guards, no no security protection at all.

Basically back then you know so many vulnerabilities like the single injection, you know.

Like so many misconfigurations.

Single injection, default.

And then I was hacking a jet for phone and I, I was hacking like red calls and bank account and it was selling for free back then.

You know forums is just like that.

People sharing techniques, people Sharing information for free.

But then things getting more seriously.

When I got into, when I finished middle school and went to high school, during my junior year high school, I met up this guy.

He was so good at making money online.

He know how to make money online.

He know how to get the money out of the credit card in the bank account.

So he was teaching me how to use my skill to hack other company to get the credit card in my account for him so he can use that to make money.

So we split the money 50, 50.

And back then I was like 16 years old and I was making like a little more than a thousand USD per day.

And I split the money with him doing nothing, I just hacking.

And then we, me and him, we collaborate together.

I remember we.

One of the funny thing that I still remember that he, me and him, we, we found out there is, there was a, that we can abuse that website to learn with the money.

So we was acting as real players to play with each other.

And we cash out the money.

Yep.

We went to the Internet cafe and we pay for all the hours for all the computers in that Internet cafe and we set up the accounts, the current defi accounts and then we have only two real accounts and we play with like tons of different fake accounts in that ethernet cafe.

And we know the cost already so we just moving the money around and we cash out to our real account and this pay account we deposit with the stolen credit card and also the stolen bank.

And man, it's just so crazy that was making so much money from that.

But then I saved that money and then I finished high school.

I paid for my school fee in New Zealand because I tried because I know whatever I was doing is bad, it's not right.

And I want it to be somebody better.

I want to be a real computer scientist.

And then I, I told myself, you know, I have to quit it, I want to be some somewhat better.

And I paid for my school fee.

I went to New Zealand, I learned about computer, computer scientists.

But within three months or four months, I got back to the hacking community again and I, at this time I was hacking like ecommercial website in New Zealand, still in a lot of protocol.

And I was selling these red credit card information and I almost got caught initially because I was selling like fraudulent music concert tickets because I used a stolen record,.

Which is one of the common methods to launder to, to, to launder the money is to transfer it into something of asset value, which is concert tickets, sports events, sometimes even like gift cards.

Yeah, yeah.

Another big one even run nowadays they see the same thing.

Yep, it's the same.

It's very, very much back then, you know, like I, I abused.

I was abusing itunes.

Yeah.

Like, and selling this gift card to other people with a cheaper price.

The people bought a lot.

Yep.

Lots of people buy it.

The same thing with the music concert ticket.

So, man, I was abusing the ticket master and so much money from there.

But they got reported that, you know, so many of my music concert tickets, you know, that was bought by stolen credit card.

And then they found out about that.

They reported back to the police and the police they called me and they fixed my bank account.

I was so scared.

And I return all the money to the police so they can refer to the victims.

But luckily, you know, they didn't catch me.

After that everything kind of looked good.

But within a day or two after that, I was so scared.

I bought my airplane ticket and I ran away with just.

And then I just stayed in New Zealand for almost a year.

Couldn't finish my dream to be a computer scientist.

Did you tell your parents?

Yeah, they told me why I got back to New Zealand.

I mean, why I got back from New Zealand.

And I have to tell them the truth about the situation.

So they were so mad at me.

They got so disgusted, kind of like disappointed at me.

I promised with my parents that I'm not going to do that again.

Trying to be a better person but, you know, couldn't last long.

Yeah, the same old, same again.

I was.

Within six months I was hanging out with like all the bad guys again.

What was the motivation at that point?

Was it.

Yeah, was it, was it, was it the curiosity, learning still or was it the.

No, it's just like financial and have social.

The social.

Yeah.

In like dinner.

Because we have a groups of kind of underground hacking members and then we are constantly meeting with each other offline.

You know, we have fun.

But then, you know, we.

We usually like, we went to like Internet cafe or we went to the coffee shop and to meet up with each other and we have fun.

You know, we talking and jacking.

Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

Sharing what, what happened?

Right, right.

The techniques or new findings.

Right.

But then, you know, the, the thing, the.

I told him, man, I don't.

I remember I told them in that group.

I told them, man, I almost get caught in New Zealand.

I don't want to touch the, you know, stolen red car anymore.

It's so dangerous.

And they, they give me an advice that they say he healed.

You know, you got some skill.

Why you don't looking for you know like US identity like a Social Security number and their birth or revolution.

I say something new to me, you know.

And they say it's good business too.

They say is it safer than red car business?

Because it's not bank account, it's not money, it's not like you know, people's identities.

Right.

It's just like information.

So I say yes, maybe it's safer.

So I was spending like almost a month and I was hacking a lot of different like data brokers in the US and eventually you know, like I was hacking one of the major data broker in the US and I gained asset to their database.

And then after that I just kind of, you know, man, I said man, maybe this is safer.

Maybe I should open a website and integrate the database.

That I got into this website and finally I got everything set up within a month and I was running the web, the underground dark web forums, the website to sell US identity to other cyber criminals.

Just within a day or two I just see the money coming into my pocket like crazy.

I remember back then I was using Liberty Visa to receive the money and learn with money.

It's some kind of like PayPal or Bitcoin nowadays.

But it's not like cryptocurrency or blockchain but you know, kind of virtual currency.

Yep.

That being used by cybercriminal and money laundry.

But typically just credits.

You're getting credits and you can check out credits.

So I was, I remember within a day or two, the money coming into my Liberty Reserve account like crazy on like almost a thousand USD per day.

And after that the money come to like 5,000 USD a day, 10,000 USD a day like crazy.

And I say wow, this is really, really good business.

But the thing you know, like when you hacking into this company, they find out and they fix the vulnerability.

So I keep hacking kind of like back and forth, you know, they're not stable.

The whack a mole.

And I see business doing like this is not good to do the business like this is not good because you have to hack them and then if you got unlucky, they fix the vulnerability and that's it, game over.

And then you have to keep hacking them.

So I say it's not good, it's not stable.

So, so I find out there is another way that I could get the account officially legitimate.

And then I obtained a fake identity of A private investigator.

And I impersonate that guy, okay, from Singapore.

And then I applied for a private investigator account at the data broker system back then.

The one of the one that I abused on this, it was the UA cost venture later it's got exploit by experience.

And I was using that account and buying for them like every month, buying for them like 20,000 to 40,000 every month.

That's how it work.

I mean until the experience.

They find out everything about my colleague, my fraudulent activities.

And the U.S. secret Service, they got involved too.

And that's it, it's game over.

They shut down my website, they shut down my server, they got into my email, my Gmail account.

They got everything about my, about my identity.

So they lured me to Guam, the US territory.

Well, what was that experience like for you?

What was the.

When you realized that everything's coming to an end from that perspective, you know, from, you know, being, I guess you were extradited out to Guam and then they did the official arrest there.

What was that experience like?

Maybe is kind of, to me it's kind of like hell on earth, man.

They was exercised me from US territory, the one island to Hawaii to California to Las Vegas, man, too many different states that I couldn't remember.

So many kind of nightmares to me.

And I remember one of the hardest time during my time in incarceration.

It's what the time when I was in Wang island because I remembered over there there's no blanket and no pillow, no nothing.

You, you, you sleep on the floor on, on the ground technically.

All right, because this is the island is kind of every.

The, the environment is not very good at all.

And I couldn't sleep well, couldn't eat well.

And I was so stressed at that time.

But things getting better day by day, time by time.

I was learning a lot about myself and keep myself busy during my time in incarceration to like educational training program to like, working in prison.

I was working in a library, I was working in the kitchen, I was working in the laundry.

And it's fun, you know, like, keep my mind busy and also do something good.

Try to be a role model in prison.

So during my time in, in prison, I got no incidents at all.

Everything looked good.

Keep, you know, keep myself, like, staying positive.

And because the original sentence was 13 years.

13 Years, yeah.

At first it was up to like 43 or 45 years in prison.

But they reduced that time because, you know, I was supporting the US Government for many things.

Yep.

And also helping them a lot of things.

But then, you know, like, one of the things that, that very surprising me because most of the code that I've been to, right, to give my testimony, like, it just like sharing my story, my life story.

Like, look like I was talking to you now, right now, at the moment, the same thing, but in more details, you know, like, from my childhood to, you know, the day I become a hacker to the day I become a cyber criminal.

You go.

I say, man, I was doing my time, you know, I have no charges anymore.

You make me worry, you know, And I so worried because I don't want them supersedes, gotta supersede in my case, you know, like, maybe they find out something new or they already got a new choice, I think, man, I was so nervous, but they put me on bus, they.

And they transferred me to the airplane.

You know, so many different roles.

And they went.

I went to, I went back to my colleague.

My, my.

The first one, kind of one, one of my first prison.

And also the prison or the jail in New Hampshire, they sentenced me before, so I was staying there.

I didn't know anything.

I don't know why they sent me here.

For a while I was doing my time and things changed a lot after that.

I was waiting, waiting for the news that what is sent me here.

So I was sitting there in the jail in New Hampshire for almost like four, five months for nothing.

Nobody tell me anything.

No one was explaining what was going on.

Did you.

You didn't have any legal counsel or like, it was like she helped before I have.

But after my sentence, I don't need anymore because so expensive.

Right, Right.

So I don't need anymore when I was doing my time.

Okay, that's it.

Bye.

You know, like, okay, you're good.

They called me back to the federal court and they say, we need your help on this case.

Okay.

They say, you know, you do the same thing.

You just in more detail.

You just standing there and sharing what your story in front of the jury and also in front of the judge, the federal church.

And I was sharing my story like almost three hours.

Like three hours.

And after that, you know, I look, I feel so good.

I don't know why I was feeling so good to share everything.

And suddenly the federal court, one of the federal court, the public defender, he called me, Hugh, we got a good news for you that you got immediately released.

You got tamps from federal prison.

Now you become a female.

I said, wow, I didn't.

Man, I was sucking.

And I was right.

I couldn't say anything.

I just like, I got fish.

I just like this.

And I called my family, you know, I was sharing with them the good news, but they couldn't believe it at all because I still in jail.

You know, they only believe when they got home.

But they, you know, some, you know, they.

They still keep.

Keep their hope in fight.

And you know, like, I got lucky that I. I forgot to tell you, I got lucky that during my court to re sentence me.

You know, the one of my teacher in that jail, she also show up in a court.

She's a counselor from outside.

And she always came to the.

Came to the jail and teaching others inmates and the priest.

Kind of like the prisoners.

Yep.

To train their mind to be a better person and stuff like that.

She is.

She's an old lady and we keep.

We still keep in touch.

Until today.

I just messaged her like an hour ago.

She was living in New Hampshire.

Okay.

Yes, she was living in New Hampshire.

Very cool lady.

And she supported me so much.

See.

And the other old man as well too.

But that old man, he just passed away seven years ago.

These people.

And you know, I always be grateful about their support and also helping me so much about, you know, the mentality and also keeping me stable and boosting me to be in the right path, you know.

But the bad thing is the COVID 19 happens.

Yes.

So I got right kind of.

I got this time.

I'm no Longer in jail anymore, but they detained me.

They sent me to the kind of immigration center.

Yes.

And I was staying there for almost eight months, waiting for the airplane to get home.

Okay.

And finally I got home.

Eight months in the immigration center.

Yeah, immigration.

Eight months immigration.

You know, it's just chill and relax.

But at least, you know, I know I'm about to go home.

Yeah.

So.

But you know, like, I always carry my, my prison journals because I was writing like almost seven different journals during my time in prison, blending my future, you know, and kind of strengthen my tasks and my behaviors.

And I brought that with me when I got back home.

And I've always dreamed in there.

And you know, because of that, it also cost me a lot about myself.

And I use that to kind of guide me into the right path of the future.

Yep.

So that's why a lot of stuff that I wrote in those journals that I apply in the current.

I mean, at the moment of whatever I do.

And it is something I'm very grateful for those times in prison, even though, you know, it.

It put me down, but at the same time it bring me up.

It bring me up to.

To, you know, to realize that what I have done in prison in the.

Past, it allows you to kind of put to your perspective and context into.

Yes.

We always talk about, you know, one of the most important is it's not the destination, it's the journey that you go on.

It's that, you know, the social sphere that you get into.

And as long as from your case, basically, what's your moral code?

And it sounds like you had the time to think about.

Yeah.

Your own direction and, and the path that you were going forward.

Yeah.

My moral code, you know, during my time in prisons is about, to be honest, one of the, One of the hard things I believe, you know, one of the hardest things in life is about to be honest to yourself.

It's not about to be honest to other people.

To be honest to other people is easy.

Yes, very easy.

But to be honest to yourself is totally different story.

Very, very, very different story.

Absolutely.

Right.

I become a better man.

Already think I was thinking different, but it's not.

All the bad things, even the little things in my life, in my childhood, you know, during.

During my young man, until the day I got locked up, everything on the bad things, even the worst thing, I, you know, I talk to myself.

And after that it just changed me completely because you know, like I, man, I see myself, it's kind like an evil man, you know.

And then I mean, and I told myself I don't want to live like this anymore.

I want to be somebody different.

And I will do it.

And that's a big change to make that happen.

So what was, I mean usually in our lives we have these moments of path and direction changes when you return back to Vietnam.

So after you had the eight months in the immigration center and you got home, what was the kind of, I'm assuming there was other interventions that set you even on the right path, even more.

What was that like?

So when you returned, what was to take your skills because you have amazing knowledge and skills, what was the kind of, you know, the moments that helped navigate that into using it for the right reasons and helping, helping make the world a safer place.

Right?

That's true.

You know, like I.

They, they recruited me as a cyber security researcher for the National, National Cyber Security center for the National Cybersecurity center as a cyber threat hunter.

And until now I still running that like almost five years already and collaborate with many other big tech companies and cyber security companies around the world and having a lot of people, like millions and millions of people against like scammers again, like hackers, stuff like that.

And during my time in Nassau Cybersecurity Center I was helping the law enforcement for chasing and hunting the cybercriminal and hackers in Vietnam and arresting like more than a little more than 200 people.

Right.

So when you think about the skill, you know that each of those skill.

And also like, also the deep knowledge about like the hacking communities and also the connection in my network.

To me it's fun to hunt cyber criminal because it's just like looking at me when I was back in the day, K me in the mirror.

Technically it's, it's fun that reflection is, I mean do you hope that when you're catching, you know, helping the NCSE and helping catching them right do you hope that it also allows you to help them use their skills for good potentially in the future?

Is it, is it kind of one of those goals to, to help set them on the right path as well?

Yeah, that's also one of my goals.

And even until now, you know, I'm, I'm still mentoring and also teachings in university, sharing my story to motivate them to do the writing.

And I was be able to change the minds of many young hackers to do the writings and follow me to build good projects to help the people, basically.

Like some of the projects that we built recently, applying the artificial intelligence to automated detecting like phishing and scam website in real time.

And also like building like a new project like personal security checklist, you know, helping them to do on the checklist of their social media profiles and you know, on their like kind of cyber hygiene, you know, to help them to be ready and to be protective.

I find that we, you know, we can only be as good as our social sphere.

Right.

And the more the people around us that we can actually make sure that they protect themselves.

It makes society a much safer place.

Right.

I think, you know, one of the things is that the hackers or the scammer, right, they always targeting like human.

The first thing is the people.

Yeah.

So to raise the awareness for them is the number one thing that this will reduce a lot of cyber crimes.

And at the same time I was talking with a lot of like black hat hackers, very young, still in high school.

And I was talking to them and a few of them, you know, they listened to me and they followed me.

And until now they've been doing well and have been a lot of people on the Internet.

One of them, you know, they, he got a scholarship in the U.S. and right now he in, in the U.S. okay.

He just got back, he said, I remember he got to the US two years ago, right.

He got a scholarship, like 75%, stuff like that.

Right.

He's doing well.

I think that's, that's amazing because I mean, I think, right.

You know, I've, I know I grew up in Ireland and UK and sometimes there's a little bit different opportunities in order to put people on the right path.

I think in countries like Vietnam when you were growing up, there probably wasn't a lot of those opportunities.

So I think it's great.

What you're doing today is, is making those opportunities possible in order to make sure that catching those who have a genuine talent at a young age before they, they start they're still at that curiosity, the learning and the social aspect of it.

And they may have not hit that monetary motive portion yet.

They're still there before they get to that.

You know, the difference between being a curiosity hacker and a criminal, the earlier you catch them, the earlier you get them and help them use that skill for, for a positive way.

I think it's crucial.

Also you've also done a huge amount of work in making a lot of products secure as well.

You understand that you've been helping from Apple side of technologies and also received numerous awards as well for your change and to kind of really laser focusing what you learned about yourself and that reflection from a positive kind of charge.

Right.

So do you want to share some of the things about the awards as well in terms of which awards you received?

Local awards in Vietnam you received?

Yeah, I received two major awards Vietnam, the Vietnam Talents Awards and also the Made in Vietnam for my brothers that help in the society for Free in Vietnam to come back against like Scammer and Fishes and another was in.

In the Middle east and tough finds Threat Hunters.

Oh fantastic.

Yes.

Something that you know, kind of encouraged me to keep doing well and doing something good for the society.

I also collaborate with United Nation and the Global Anti Scam alliance and yeah some of the major one like anti phishing working group providers.

Total.

Yeah, stuff like that.

Fantastic.

And you.

I mean where we got intersected was through Interpol as well because you've been doing.

Right.

Which is fantastic as well.

Interpol, you know, like I supporting and doing racing cybersecurity, guilty awareness and revenge and stuff.

Right.

It's fun.

So what's.

What's next for you?

What's the future look like for you?

I mean now that you've had this right.

Whirlwind journey kind of, you know, where you had a path of.

That led you down a very dark path and then you saw the light and that I've changed around.

What's.

What's what.

What's on the horizon?

What are you, what are you looking to do in the near future?

That's a good question though.

Always, you know, you know like hoping that one day I can go around the.

And come back to the U.S. sharing my story with the younger generation.

I really want, you know, to get back to the chair in prison to motivate the prisoner to do the writing and stay fast.

No matter where they go, they still be able to.

Can learn to.

To, to learn and to improve themselves.

No matter what kind of situation in circumstances they still able to do something right and something good.

Absolutely.

Life is a lot.

That's what my, my main goals in the future and, and mentoring and guiding these younger, younger generation, helping them to do, to build good products especially like cyber security products and service to help the societies.

Absolutely.

Instead of doing the better things they can.

You can make a lot of money doing the right thing.

Yeah.

If you put, if you put your energy and passion into, you know, what you enjoy doing, the financial side will, will come.

You know, it, it might take longer, it might be more difficult to do, but it does come.

It does come.

That's the thing.

Any, any kind of final words that you'd like to leave.

What's some of the kind of resources or things that you would recommend the audience to go to in order to help them?

Maybe there's some people on the audience that's, you know, in that early stage as well.

Is there resources or places you point them to that would help them find the right path?

Maybe a book or is there some type of educational resource or website that.

Would to me the best thing for young hackers that is they should go to the right communities for them to learn and improve themselves and get connected with the good people.

And I recommend young hackers that should go to like these platform like bug bounty programs where they can learn and improve themselves and they can freely hack any company they want and they still can get awards.

You know, doing the right thing, having the comedy to get fixed.

And the second thing they can, you know, attending any possible capture the Flash event to hanging out and build communities with other people.

That's how you can grow.

And one of the, the last aspine that, you know, I always recommend people that never give up on your cream, you know, like keep doing the writing and when you do the right things, you know, the good things will happen to you.

I completely agree.

I think it just, I think what.

You're right, right, right.

You know, like it just be patient and one day you will get there and the roads ahead, you know, it will be open and very wide open for you.

But if you go too fast, you know, like live fast, die young.

That's what they say, right.

That's why, you know, you live good, good, you know, easy money, easy go.

The same thing like me, all the money I earned before, it's only gone, you know, it's gone completely gone.

But the thing is one, what you have is, is you know, like the knowledge and, and you can use that to do the writing and when you do the writings, good things will happen.

To you.

Also, I think it reminds me of something you said earlier.

Right.

It was.

Is that, you know, when you meet, you know, it's.

It's a judge, the social, the people around you.

If you surround yourself with good people, that's the positive side.

And I think what you mentioned around doing things like bug bounties and capture the flag.

Right.

You.

You quickly surround yourself with people who's doing it for the right reasons and good people.

And that will definitely help you on.

The path a lot because they, they, they will motivate you and you learn from them.

Yep.

And then, you know, it's good community.

And you saw them, you know, they, they still hacking, they doing good.

They do the right thing.

They still make a lot of money.

Yeah.

They're having fun, right?

They're having fun and they kind of.

They can go anywhere they want with a laptop.

That's all they want.

Yeah, right, Absolutely.

So, Hugh, it's been awesome having you on, and I think this is a.

This episode is definitely an important lesson.

Right.

But, you know, you know, how to make sure that you understand kind of, you know, the potential consequences of actions and also the possibility of using it in a positive way that allows you to have still that same freedom and enjoyment in the future.

It's been awesome having you on.

Many thanks.

And I really, hopefully we'll get to see each other in some event or some conference or some possibility in the future.

It'll be fantastic.

So for the audience, this is, you know, share this episode with your friends or people or maybe individuals who, you know that you're on that verge of making a decision about their future.

I think this is important.

Definitely.

Lesson.

So many thanks for sharing your story with the audience.

Right.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for your invitation.

So many times that I miss kind of your interview and then I do apologize about that.

No problem at all.

So for everyone in the audience, this is the security by default podcast.

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Stay up to date, subscribe, share with your friends, and I look forward to speaking with you on future episodes.

So all the best and take care.

Thank you.

All the best.