Today, we're diving into a heartfelt conversation with Athena Dean Holtz, an inspiring leader with over 40 years of experience in ministry and publishing. Our discussion revolves around her latest book, "No Longer Hidden: You Can't Resist What You Don't Recognize," which sheds light on the unseen tactics of the enemy that often lead to division and strife in our lives and communities. Athena shares her journey of overcoming adversity and the prayer that transformed her understanding of her heart, challenging us to seek God's perspective. We explore the shifting landscape of Christian publishing, the challenges authors face today, and how leaders can discern spiritual battles in their own lives. Join us as we unravel the complexities of faith, leadership, and the importance of recognizing the truth in our hearts.

Takeaways:

• The shift in Christian publishing emphasizes the author's responsibility for marketing, impacting those without large platforms.
• Athena highlights how spiritual warfare manifests in everyday church dynamics, often creating unnecessary divisions among members.
• Leaders need to be honest about their struggles to foster a supportive environment and combat spiritual weariness.
• Recognizing and addressing unprocessed grief is crucial for effective leadership and maintaining healthy communication.
• Understanding the enemy's tactics, such as stirring discontent, is vital for leaders to effectively guide their congregations.
• Athena's personal experiences underscore the importance of forgiveness and discernment in overcoming past traumas and spiritual battles.

Links referenced in this episode:

• athenaholtsspeaks.com

Welcome to Becoming Bridge Builders, a podcast where we engage curious leaders, courageous leaders who build bridges between faith and action.

I am your host, Reverend Dr. Keith Haney.

Today's guest is Athena Dean Holtz, a professional speaker, published pioneer servant leader, mentor with more than 40 years of experience in ministry, nonprofit leadership and Christian publishing.

She.

She is the founder of Redemption Press, recognized as the best Christian workplace for three years running, and the author of several books, including her most recent release, no Longer Hidden, you can't resist what you don't recognize.

A former radio host known for her transparency and hard won wisdom, Athena equips leaders to turn adversity into kingdom impact and to discern the enemy's tactics in both ministry and the workplace.

Athletic Athena, welcome to the podcast.

Well, thank you so much for having me.

So glad to have you on.

I'm going to ask you my favorite question and get you warmed up here.

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Early on in my walk with Christ and jumping into full time ministry, shortly after becoming a believer, a missionary told me to pray this prayer.

Lord, show me my heart as you see it.

And that was a game changer because at that point I wasn't.

It wasn't like Jesus was my Lord, he wasn't my master, he was just my.

I was getting the.

Gonna get out of going to hell.

Right, to, you know, get a hell free card.

Yeah, exactly.

And so praying that prayer that I've continued many times to pray, it just helps me remember, really.

Heart is deceitfully wicked.

It's very easy.

Like David prayed, help me Lord, not to lie to myself.

So that prayer kind of keeps me in check and I so appreciate it.

That's a courageous prayer.

I'm not sure who most of us want to see it, our heart, the way God sees it.

We like to deceive ourselves, thinking we're much better than we are.

Like the Pharisee in the Bible.

Oh, thank God.

Not like that other guy over there.

Right.

We like to judge ourselves on what we intend to do, but we judge others on what they actually do.

So we're always way too easy on ourselves.

Yeah.

And much harder.

Another guy.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Wow, that's.

That's an interesting one.

I think about that a little bit more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you spent the last four decades in Christian publishing and ministry.

What changes have you seen on how faith driven messages are created, shared and received?

And are there any things that concern you right now as you think about the landscape today?

Well, what I have seen happen over 40 years is kind of the weight of marketing.

And getting the word out about books has gone from being the publisher's responsibility to the author's responsibility.

And the author has to bring so much to the table.

And it makes it hard for people who don't have huge platforms to get that kind of a traditional contract with a publisher.

And then on the other end of the spectrum, it's too easy to get published.

You could just upload a file to Amazon and click publish and woohoo.

And there's no one there to tell you, wait, wait, wait, wait.

This is really not ready for publication.

So there's two main challenges there.

I also think that I'm.

Because I came out of the new Age, I recognize a lot of new age kind of sneaking into the church.

And that concerns me.

There's a lot of it.

There's a lot of big publishers that we've come to know and love over the years that are promoting things that are not biblical.

So there's a chunk of concern right there from me.

Wow.

It's funny, I've had on my podcast recently Christian filmmakers and dare say their challenges creating stories that are real, not the generic antagonist.

The moment in church where there's this conversion moment where the choir all sings and everybody goes home happy.

It's like every Christian movie has the same basic premise, the same basic storyline.

So create something different is hard to sell for a movie.

So I'm assuming it's the same thing.

In the book industry, there are certain platforms, certain types of books that we know.

These are winners, these are sellers.

So we need these kinds of books because these kind of books sell.

In fact, I'm glad you brought that up because it was interesting to watch as, you know, Left behind and the Prayer of Jabez and all these blockbuster, huge money makers for the publisher.

It was like we as Christians want to write the next blockbuster.

And Jerry Jenkins did, and so did the prayer Jabez guy.

But so often, like we're copying the world to try and just take a secular idea and add a scripture, kind of slap a scripture on it and, and think that's success and it's really should be the other way around where they're.

We're setting this, you know, here's where the bar should be and they should be wanting to follow.

Yeah, I just released a book.

And you're right about the other part of that too, where you have to do a lot of work.

I remember how much work there was.

They I basically, if I could just.

I'm selling a book myself.

So it's like.

And it's hard because if you're not, if you're not a person who likes to sell, then it's difficult because you feel like you're always trying to pitch something when people talk to you.

So, hey, have you seen my new book?

And.

It's hard.

It makes sense.

Like, no, I came to the store for something else.

I came for coffee.

Yeah, but here's a book that goes with your cup of coffee.

Yeah, it's when authors have to be that pushy, people kind of like, okay, don't want to make eye contact, cross the other side of the street.

Right.

To avoid it.

Have I got a deal for you.

So let's talk about your new book.

I love the title, boldly titled, no Longer Hidden.

What personal experiences or leadership moments compel you to write this message now?

Well, it was a very difficult ministry moment when I, over the last four years have kind of been a bystander watching a merger that my husband, who's been in ministry for 50 years pastoring, he negotiated it, he set the, the merger up because he wanted to make sure his congregation would be taken care of if he.

Something happened to him or if he decided to step away.

I mean, he's almost 80, so it was an important thing for him to do.

And what he saw as a five year kind of slow fade turned into a painful, unexpected kind of push out, which we found out later is kind of normal in those kinds of situations.

They want to get rid of the old guy and get the new guy in, get the new blood going.

And I just had a really hard time forgiving.

That was just like, I was shocked at the way they acted and I was really whining.

I mean, it had been three years and I was still struggling.

I was forgiving them, but it was not sticking.

I mean, because I would just get triggered again.

Someone would say something, something would happen.

And I, you know, it was not something that once I said, I, I choose to forgive them.

It wasn't like everything was great.

And what the Lord basically reminded me of are some connections that this pastor and his wife had.

Through purchasing a house from the people that were really the false shepherds.

I fell into a 13 year detour, into deception.

Believing someone and his wife who called themselves pastor and, you know, pastor's wife, that's not really who they were.

They were con men and really abusive.

It was spiritual abuse.

It was bad, bad.

And they had a history of it, which I, you know, didn't bother to check on.

And so when the Lord showed me there's a connection between this bad behavior happening by this elder board and this pastor and his wife, and it is connected in a spiritual way to these people that 20 years earlier had destroyed my.

Almost destroyed my faith.

They got everything from me except for my faith, which is a total miracle, because most people that come out of that spiritually abusive environment just, you know, walk away from God, say, no, thanks, you know, deconstruct, whatever.

And so when I saw the connection and I realized three different things that happened that were exactly the same with this elder board and with these false shepherds, I was able to say, okay, the battle is not flesh and blood.

I can't just be looking at their bad behavior.

They're just as deceived as I was for 13 years.

And all of a sudden, I was able to forgive them from my heart.

But realizing how badly the enemy wants us to stay angry, to not forgive, I mean, that is how the enemy gets a foothold.

I mean, that's right there in scripture.

Be angry, but do not sin.

Right.

Don't go to bed on your anger or you'll give the devil a foothold.

Right, Right.

So realizing that and how easily I had been blind to.

This was a spiritual battle.

This was not people's bad behavior.

And that was really what motivated me.

It's called guerrilla warfare.

And it was.

I mean, the strategies and the tactics are exactly the same.

And we started, you know, sharing that with the body of Christ so that they could become more equipped to face whatever battle God allows in their life.

But it just.

It didn't take off back then.

It was just, you know, for a number of reasons, it wasn't God's timing, and he'd been on me for years to go back to that book, bring it up to date, get it out there, because it is such a relevant message.

And so that is what inspired me to do it now and not wait another 12 years.

Like, I drugged my feet already.

Right.

I like the second.

The second subtitle of the book, you Can't Resist what yout Don't Recognize.

You sort of alluded to it.

Some of the guerrilla tactics that, you know, enemy uses.

Can you kind of unpack for us and for those who are listening, who may not don't recognize those tactics, what are some of the enemy's tactics that leaders and believers often fail to recognize.

Well, he's really good at stirring up division.

And if you just think about it, whether it's going to church and you fight all the way going to church, and then you walk in and you put your happy face on, everything's fine, but you were just knocked down, drag out all the way to church or, you know, all sorts of pandemonium happening and hurt feelings and whatever.

There is a.

That is a technique called cutting the pie.

And what they did in Vietnam was in the jungle.

They would dig into this perimeter around all their stuff.

So they had all their stuff in the middle and then the perimeter was around them.

And there were two soldiers in every hole around this perimeter.

And they would take turns staying awake through the night.

And what the enemy would do is he would like probe the perimeter and make some noise.

I mean, it's pitch black.

You can't see anything.

So all they could do was hear that something was awry.

And the enemy would then just hightail it out of there.

But each soldier would turn toward the noise.

So the guy over here would turn that way, the guy over here would turn this way.

And so what are they going to do?

Shoot each other?

Which is exactly what we do.

I mean, the enemy does that.

Whether it's, you know, you're trying to decide on the color of carpet or, you know, it's crazy, ridiculous fights and church splits happen when there's just like.

That doesn't even make sense that there would be that much offense and chaos.

But the enemy is very sneaky.

He comes around, he doesn't want you to recognize him.

He just wants you to see what you don't, what's going to offend you and just division, stirring up strife.

He wants.

I mean, if you think of what's going on today in our nation and all the just chaos and hatred and just craziness that's going on out there.

I mean, Satan has done a really good job at stirring things up so that we get mad and we stay mad.

I mean, it's okay to get mad, but like I already quoted this, be in your anger.

Do not sin.

Do not go to bed on your anger, or you give the enemy a foothold.

That's in Ephesians.

Well, if we have a whole nation of people offended and mad about what, you know, all the things like there.

It's.

It's on both sides.

So it's happening and all these people are going to bed angry and they are giving the devil, a foothold.

That, that is a strategy of the enemy.

Stir up anger with no, you know, with nothing to change it.

Right.

And I think that when you said that, it reminded me of a phrase I hear quite often on both sides, and that is, you can't hate the other side enough.

And, and I.

And when you think about that, it's like, whoa.

To get us to the point where we think that that's okay and we actually buy into it and repeat it.

I know I've been upset, and I think I've repeated that myself a couple of times.

And it's like we don't even realize what we're allowing to happen to us because I just heard a commentator kind of phrase that it's like, you know, I get up in the morning, look for reasons to hate.

So.

And so.

And, and I don't want.

And I don't want to be fixed from it.

I don't want to be.

I don't want this to be solved.

I want the hate.

I want to find new reasons to make the hate deeper, more intense.

I'm like, we don't even hear what we're saying anymore.

It goes back to your initial, the initial statement.

You said, God, I want you to see my heart as, as my, as you see it, let me see my heart as you see.

If we could see our hearts the way God sees them, we talk about, I can't hate the other side enough.

I think it would change a lot of how we interact and talk about each other.

Absolutely.

And it, I mean, that, that right there, having that come out of our mouth saying, I can't, you know, I don't want to not hate.

I want to hate them.

Right.

That's demonic.

That is demonic.

And, and, and again, that's the kinds of things, if we don't recognize the enemy at work there, we're not going to resist it.

We're going to take it in, we're going to embrace it.

We're going to love it because we are not discerning and seeing what is going on.

Wow.

So why do people shy away from seeing the spiritual aspects of our situations in our churches and in the world?

I think, well, gosh, I think the enemy has done a great job at getting people in the body of Christ to either be in one of two camps.

One is, oh, I don't need to worry about Satan.

I mean, I'm saved.

I'm going to heaven.

What's the big deal, right?

And, and you think of the devil made me do it.

I Can't remember his name.

Flip Wilson.

Yes.

You.

You kind of think, yeah, right, like.

Like there's a real devil, huh?

And then you got the other end where people are.

They see a devil under a demon, under every doorknob, under every bush.

It's like obsessed with and total over the top paranoia.

The enemy loves to have us in one of those two camps because then, I mean, it makes people look at us and go, whatever.

Those Christians really don't know what they're.

You know, what are they doing?

Where we need to be discerning and understanding that we do have an enemy.

That is not something that is not in the Bible.

It's all over the Bible.

That's his job.

He didn't take a break and go, oh, I don't have to do that anymore.

No, he still does that.

And Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil.

So we need to not be ignorant of.

A lot of us are being played because we don't discern what's really going on.

We are making this job a little easier, though.

Oh, yes, we are.

So I love the chapters of your book.

At least I'm looking at your book now.

And this one that really stood out in my mind is the strongholds of the mind.

What lies take root, you know, we don't.

One of my favorite passages is Romans 12 talking about be transformed.

And I don't think that we do enough of that or talk about enough of that in our churches anymore.

But what does it mean to be transformed?

So tell us a little bit about what that chapter is about and what do you cover in that chapter?

Chapter seven.

Okay, Well, I just actually did a podcast on that a week ago, and it was like, wow, this is so important because we grow up in life and, you know, whether as our family of origin, you know, people say things that, you know, we're stupid or we don't know, you know, just whatever.

Whatever we grow up with that is spoken about us and whatever trauma we experience as we grow up, there are absolute lies from the pit that go around in our mind.

And that's why the scripture says we have to take every thought captive.

We don't just let it rule and reign in our lives.

No, we say, wait a second, that's a lie.

I do not accept that.

And here's what I do accept.

Here's what God says in his Word.

And we have to know.

I mean, the enemy's not exactly, like, he's pretty Predictable.

I mean, you can see so many of the same narratives he uses on us.

And because they work.

And to, to begin to ask God, give me the discernment, I need to see the lies that I am believing so that I can figure out the exact scripture that is the truth that undoes that lie.

And then we have to.

That's the only way we're going to get transformed, is if we speak the word in context, not some out of context.

One line that doesn't really mean what we think it means.

Like, I can do all things through Christ.

Well, that's not what he was talking about there, about, you know, winning the Olympics or whatever.

No, he was talking about suffering and being.

Having nothing and being, you know, whether it was.

Had plenty or he was in prison with nothing, he could do all things through Christ who strengthens him.

So we gotta pick scriptures that are in context and that's what they really mean.

And then we have to apply them.

We take captive the lie, the narrative.

You can never do anything right.

You know, you're, you know, you're just.

People don't take you.

They don't, they don't take you serious.

No one's gonna read your book.

Why would they wanna read your book?

Who do you think you are to write a book?

You know, I mean, there's the same narratives all the time.

And you have to be able to recognize them.

Cause we're so used to it that we just let it stay in our head.

And so those things control us instead of God's word and the truth.

Yeah.

So you have spent 40 years, four decades on the battlefield.

And I'm curious, as you've mentored leaders who are weary, wounded, disillusioned.

How does unrecognized spiritual resistance sabotage servant.

Leaders, boy, in a big way.

Because Daniel 7, verse 25 says about Satan that he will wear out the saints, like, wear you out.

How many leaders don't feel worn out?

I mean, think about it.

We.

There's always too much to deal with.

There's aren't too many plates spinning, too many.

You know, just.

There is always a demand for our time, for our energy, for our resources, for our life.

And if we do not understand that is a strategy of the evil one to keep us chasing our tails, worn out and discouraged because we don't even take the time to see what in our life is maybe still untended to.

Like.

I know for me, my medication of choice is work and success.

And I would rather do that than think about some abuse or betrayal or all the different things scattered throughout my life that I have not fully healed from.

And so they still can get triggered and still influence my thoughts, my behavior.

And so when leaders have a heart to do, I mean, they're called.

God has called them to do what they're doing, but they just don't want to go there.

They don't want to have to think about what, you know, we kind of preach to ourselves and say, well, I'm a new creation.

I don't need to worry about it.

I'm a new creation in Christ.

Well, you know, yes, spiritually you are, but emotionally and mentally, if you have undealt with an unprocessed trauma, it is going to make you vulnerable to deception.

And that could be deception in theology, but it could also be deception in just God has called you, but you doubt because you're believing his lies.

So I think that is just a huge thing that as leaders, we are setting the example and we have to be honest and say to the people we're leading, I am really struggling right now.

And I'm having a hard time with XYZ and saying, you know, in fact, my husband, when he was going through that whole thing with the merger, he almost didn't know who he was anymore because he wasn't pastoring anymore.

And there were times when he'd just say, I can't even get out of bed.

I am just that he didn't name it as depression until many months later because it was.

He'd never had that happen before.

So just those things, if we aren't openly saying, I am struggling with this now, do you say it to everyone?

No, but you say it to people who you can trust and who will pray for you and not try and fix you.

But, but that is just.

When you're in leadership, you're just expected to be perfect and never have any issues.

And I think it sets up a wrong.

It sets the wrong example.

Because if, I mean, I have learned to tell my team, I'm really struggling right now, and would you guys pray for me?

Cause here's what I'm dealing with.

Or whenever somebody doesn't respond to a text right away, that same narrative, oh, they're mad at you, they don't want to talk to you.

Just.

Just forget even what you were going to say to them.

I mean, it's.

And it happens every time.

You would think I would, like, get a clue.

And I still have to battle that and remind myself, wait, wait, wait, no, this is not God's voice.

So just I think really understanding that we all have baggage, we all have unhealed trauma from our lives, that the enemy wants to be able to deceive us.

So if he can keep us from moving toward wholeness and healing, he will try to do that.

Wow.

So who would you say this book is targeting?

And how would an organization use this book?

Well, I would say it's targeting believers just because we are so unaware oftentimes of that we're getting played by the enemy and we're not recognizing it.

So I think that is definitely the audience.

And, you know, I think often church congregations, church leadership, church team in the workplace, churches.

I mean, there's a lot of not always real healthy ways of dealing with conflict or dealing with, you know, people questioning or there's just.

There's a lot that depending on the leadership, you know, maybe they need as a team, as a Bible study, because I actually have a workbook journal that goes with the book where you're able to actually read a chapter and then go through and process what you just read and see how it applies to you.

And so I think any sort of small group in any sort of church setting or even doesn't have to be in a church, but yeah, I just think whether it is in the work environment, the church staff, or even the volunteers.

Volunteers and any sort of leadership, because we.

We have so much that we could be doing and enjoying God's goodness as he uses us in those places where he calls us.

But boy, if the enemy can have his way, he is going to just wear us down.

And we need more than anything is good discernment to be able to see when that's what it is.

And I'm not talking about being a crazy person and running around and casting out demons and all that.

I'm saying you humble yourselves before the Lord, you resist the devil and he has to flee.

So a lot of it is just learning how to stand firm against the enemy's tactics.

That's good.

What is a spiritual discipline leaders neglect the most, you would say, I think,.

Really staying grounded in the Word because it's just so easy.

I mean, I remember.

I remember times when I was not very.

I didn't have a whole lot of spiritual depth, let's put it that way.

And I just skimmed over scriptures, you know, I mean, I'd hear a sermon, I'd read a book, and the book I would like, whenever the person, the author would quote the scripture, I just go by that and see what they had to say afterwards.

And the Lord really convicted me on that and just how little biblical literacy I had.

And so because of that, that's why I was able to be duped by this false shepherd and his wife.

Because I didn't.

I just didn't know the first thing about really reading scripture from a biblical worldview and being able to understand.

Is this scripture telling me that I need to do this, or is it just giving a description of what happened?

And that is just for us to understand who God is not.

We're supposed to do every single thing that we read in the Bible.

We're supposed to go do it.

So I think.

I really think being solid in the Word and just learning as much as we can, it's living water, and it is.

We can get.

When we're burnt out or just exhausted, it's easy to just kind of get out of the habit of really pursuing God in the Word.

What is a warning sign leaders should never ignore?

I would say if you or your team is exhausted, sad.

I mean, think about the whole pandemic.

I mean, there were so many losses, so many things happened there.

Most of us never really went back and grieved those things.

And when you have unprocessed grief, that can wear you out and get you to a place as a leader where you're not having healthy conversations and you're not leading well because there's just too much weight that you're carrying.

And so I. I just think a real honest conversation about how we're doing.

I mean, we're just so used to saying, how you doing?

Oh, I'm fine.

I'm just fine.

I'm fine.

No, you're not.

You know, and there's nothing wrong with not being fine.

Right?

But being.

Being able.

Yeah.

It's okay to not be okay.

And I want to allow space for the Lord to do whatever he needs to still do in my heart.

I'm.

I'm.

I've never.

I'm never going to arrive until I get to heaven.

So just understanding that he works all things together for good, for those who love him and are called according to his purposes.

Romans 8:28.

But he does that so that we will be sanctified and conformed into the likeness of His Son.

Which is the next verse, which usually doesn't get quoted with Romans 8:28.

He allows those hard things to refine us and sanctify us and conform us to the likeness of His Son.

And it's hard to embrace those moments when they're painful.

But when we really recall how he has used that in the past to refine us.

We can praise him for it.

That's great.

I'm going to ask you my other favorite question.

What do you want your legacy to be?

Oh, I guess just that my crazy life of believing so many weird lies before I was a Christian and Scientology and the new age, and then in Christianity, getting sucked into what was really a cult.

I want my legacy to be that I served a faithful God.

And he always showed up and showed himself faithful in ways like I.

How could.

You can't make that stuff up.

How could you do that, Lord?

But it's because he.

He's the one that's in the spotlight, not me.

And I. Yeah, just his faithfulness is my legacy.

I love it.

So we have a new thing on the show, and that is a surprise question.

Pick a number between 1 and 10 for your surprise question.

1 And 10.

7.

Here we go.

7.

What band or artist, dead or alive, would play at your funeral?

Somebody asked me that on a podcast last week.

What's your favorite song?

I'm like, I don't know what favorite song Gosh.

Would play at my funeral?

Probably my son who plays the hammer dulcimer.

So he's kind of a Rich Mullins.

Like, he's that kind of.

He almost played Rich Mullins in the movie, but he couldn't play the piano enough.

But that hammer dulcimer is a really cool instrument.

He played at my wedding, so I would have him play at my.

Oh, that's so neat.

I like that.

Yeah.

So where can people find you and find your books, connect with you online?

All right, that would be athenaholtsspeaks.com and all my books are there and they all have the links to Amazon.

Yeah.

Well, Athena, thanks so much for your faithfulness, your courage, and your unwavering commitment to bringing what's hidden into the light to our listeners.

If today's conversation stirred something in you, I encourage you to pick up Athena's latest book, no longer hidden.

You cannot resist what you do not recognize and prayerfully examine your own life, leadership and your calling.

And maybe if you have the courage to pray the prayer that she was learning to pray.

And God, show me my heart the way you see my heart.

Share this episode with a leader, a pastor, an entrepreneur, anyone who needs clarity, courage and discernment for the days ahead.

Subscribe, leave a review and help us continue building bridges of truth, wisdom and kingdom impact.

I am your host, Reverend Dr. Keith Haney.

Until next time, keep building bridges.

Thank you so much, Athena.