Robert joins us to unpack what e-money actually is. He explains how and why Axiom IFS are using it to create global payment solutions for companies wanting to operate in different jurisdictions but struggle to set up local bank accounts. And explains the benefits Axiom’s services provide beyond traditional banking methods. Robert also tells us why he thinks self-promotion on social media qualifies for the big bin of business bullshit.

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Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I am Andy Orian, alongside me as my fabulous co-host, pk.

Hi.

I am indeed.

Hey, and with today, we are joined by the wonderful Robert Wesson.

Robert is c e O of Axiom, international Financial Services.

They basically, uh, help companies access treasury solutions in new markets, which you'll no doubt explain, um, even better than that.

But, um, it's a, it's a fascinating world.

Everyone needs access to treasury.

They need it more than ever, I would say.

Uh, and you need people like Robert to help you navigate this market and find you solutions.

Without a doubt.

I mean, let's talk about your business because it, it, it, it's so important, and especially I'm sure to some of our listeners, you know, if you know anything about entering a market,

particularly the uk Yeah, well, you can get yourself a company, but getting yourselves as you would say, treasury facilities or in common normal couture, but perhaps not technically correct.

Banking bank account.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's an incredibly difficult process.

I mean, just, just tell us a little bit about what you do and what you, where you think the market is and things.

Essentially, I took a product range that wasn't meant to be taken to the market that I've taken it to, and really the business was built off the back of constantly being told that it's a massive problem.

When businesses are set up in the UK that have overseas ownerships, no local directors, no local compliance, et cetera, cannot get.

An operational bank account.

Uh, and you'll know, a lot of your listeners will know, you know, whether you are entering into America or into Europe or wherever.

That's a big challenge.

It's hard everywhere, is it?

Well, pretty much.

I mean, look, it's, it, yeah.

A lot of markets it is hard.

Some are easier, but, but you know, if we focus on the UK for now, then, then yeah.

Setting up a sort of a newly established, uh, subsidiary of a larger parent company.

That has very limited compliance.

The banks just don't give you an account.

You know, that's been a problem for a long time and it's certainly not changing.

So they don't want you, I mean, no, but that's again, another, probably another longer conversation.

But you know, people do also have to realize that, you know, these days you are just fitting into a bucket that it's probably too hard basket for compliance.

You're not really gonna make the bank any money.

You are just a, a, a, a number which enters into a risk matrix and therefore the computer says no.

Uh, and I people want to hear it or not.

Unfortunately, that's, you know, pretty, pretty close to the truth.

So really what, what I did and, and, and what we had Axiom did was, was take the money license, which was really designed by.

The Treasury post 2008, to minimize the social impact of large banks failing.

Oh, really?

We see, I thought even existed before 2008.

2008.

Well, I think that was when it sort of really came to fruition.

Yeah.

It was about minimizing that social impact if a large bank was fail, which essentially means that the banks have to safeguard the funds, but the banks aren't allowed to trade on the funds.

They're not gambling with your money for, for, for want of this in a slightly unfair term.

Well, if you take a very simplistic view of wider, large banks fail, I mean there's first republics having a run at the moment.

Obviously Silicon Valley Bank a couple of weeks ago, et cetera.

You know, in its simplicity is that, that the trading department of the bank is, is obviously making trades.

Trades go south, they cannot, they, they default on the debt and they're taking clients' deposits and then they run out of money essentially.

So the banks are fault, the e-money license protects the consumer.

So the idea is that the funds are in a fully safeguarded account and therefore the banks cannot use those funds in order, um, to pay their deposits or to pay their debts on their trade.

But the initial, you know, often the reaction and, and, and, and is from people.

Yeah.

But I want Barclay's or Lo, you know, I want this brick and mortar thing, but actually what you're telling me is this was designed to be safer from day one.

Yep.

So we've, we've had lunches with banks and what have you, and, and actually e money providers that have moved into being a full p r a registered bank.

And, and by their own admission that the only reason that they would transition from a money provider up to a full p r a is, is really commercial because they are.

Essentially making money on their client's deposits.

What the money license does is protect the consumer.

So from a security perspective, if you have an operational account, if you rang me up tomorrow and said, Rob, I want to have 50 million in an account that I'm never gonna touch, I just want some interest on it, then obviously we don't have the license for that.

Or, you know, our partners gonna have the license for that.

And that's not what we do.

If you rang up and said, I've got 50 million, that's, you know, we're gonna be used, it's active, it's gonna be trading currency, we're, we're, we're paying up payments, we're doing payroll, et cetera.

Then that can fall into the e-money license, um, to license.

And what that means is that then that count is safeguarded and the liquidity protection is at a hundred percent.

Oh.

So fundamentally for all e-money providers, you know, and there's lots out there.

If you're not, you're not familiar.

Probably one of the most famous, you know, is, is Wise.

I guess there's, there's, there's so many though.

There's lots of people who have e-money licenses.

Some of the people you deal with you may think are banks or e-money licenses, but for all of them they need you to trade.

Is that the case?

Well, I mean, again, I.

Mean, I don't wanna be, you know, delving into sort of too much regulation.

But the, the, the sort of general premises is that in order to qualify for any money account is that there has to be activities, there has to be sort of onward payments.

Something has to be happening.

Yeah.

Something has to, because the banks aren't just gonna protect your money for free.

Right.

So the sort of, the trade off is, is that again, if someone, if you go back to that easy example, someone brings up and says, I want to protect 50 million in a fully ring fenced account, but not do anything with it, then the answer's no.

That falls outside of the, the regulation scope.

If the, the accountant has to be an active account.

You know, because the banks will generate revenue elsewhere on your fx, on your payments, on your wire fees, your monthly fees, whatever it might be.

Mm-hmm.

Which obviously is important, so, The, the protection that you receive under an e-money license, as long as it's an active account, is, is the sort of the winner from the security perspective.

How do they do the international bit?

Because I probably explain it wrong, but plants will say, I'll say to 'em, look, the, you know, you, you know exactly like this week, you know, you are a trading business.

You've got money flying around the world.

You are, you know, have you got e-money FX facilities?

No, we don't.

We just got hsbc.

It's quite a standard answer.

Answer.

And you're like, You.

Okay, great.

Keep h s bbc, you know, don't get rid of anything, you know, these days just have lots of options, I think.

But you are crazy.

You know, you, you should be using these people who make their money out of fx, uh, and moving around.

But the bit I've never understood in my head, I say to them, you gotta stop thinking about geography so much.

You gotta stop thinking bricks and mortar of physical bank with money in it because these platforms suddenly give you a bank account that you pay and receive in the US or in Australia.

Yeah, I, I think again, you know, people have to modernize their.

Approach and then understanding of what's available on a sort of treasury perspective.

The reason we say treasuries, cuz we try to avoid the word bank and banking cuz you know, we're not a bank, we don't operate with banks, et cetera.

But what we do do is we provide, you know, treasury solutions that want people to understand what the benefits of those are.

Then they actually help very large corporates as well as sort of, you know, pre-revenue startups.

I'm a re, I'm regulated in the UK as an e-money license.

How have I got a bank account over in America, this payment rails.

So they have a collection account that will be given via bank in America.

So it's a local collection account.

So there's a payment rail that will be unique into the, to the client's name.

So, oh, plug into the system of the money flows.

Exactly.

Payment rails.

So let's take a really easy example, right?

So if you're a UK corporate, then you're selling into America, and so you've been onboarded by a a UK.

FCA regulated sort of e-money payments provider.

That business can then, um, have a collection account, treasury account, business account, whatever you wanna call it, just don't call it a bank account in America, which, which basically receives in local payment methods.

So in America it would be receiving in ACH and receiving in Fedwire, which if you are a business in AM in a UK business, but dealing in America, you can put on your invoice to the American client.

Here is my local account in America.

Which is get local payment method capabilities.

So for them it's an easy language they understand so they can pay a US dollar bill into a US dollar account based in America.

So everyone understands that.

How it works from sort of the regulation perspective is, is that really that account is being used to collect the funds as a payment rail, and then those funds are essentially swept

back into the sort of the, the FCA regulated safeguarded account under the FCA regulation, which will essentially be with, you know, tier one bank like Lloyd's or Barclays, et cetera.

This is a question you don't have to answer, but where do you think it's going?

Well, there's been a big shift in, you know, what I've seen, you asked me a minute ago where the market's going, and I think Sunny Silicon Valley Bank was, was sort of, you know, the, the crystallization of my train of thought.

But for, if you go back to five, six years ago when we sort of really started on this journey, people were a bit afraid of the, the letter E, you know, E Money.

It's online, it's, you know, we don't understand it.

I don't really want to understand it, you know, et cetera.

Still there.

Yes, but the way that we can describe it, the way that we explain it, the what, why we do operate with some of the world's larger businesses.

Cause people are now starting to understand it.

Yes.

And they're like, Hey, I can keep, so let's say you're an American business.

You have a, a banking relationship with Chase.

We don't wanna take your banking relationship away from Chase.

You keep your banking relationship with Chases.

What we wanna do is, is allow you to understand that you can open up accounts in foreign jurisdictions in the space of 24 hours.

You know, have a, a smoother payment flow with your international clients, do your payroll, you know, locally, et cetera.

You can have a space in your international treasury for modern FinTech, which essentially is faster, you know, in theory, better, cheaper.

Easier to use, et cetera, which sits alongside your traditional relationship.

And I think there's been a change at the sort of C-suite of larger businesses that go, hang on a minute.

This is beneficial and we can have an element to our business where this really helps and adds value.

And that's the big difference.

How do they get round, you know, just, just to get down to the bwb kind of question.

So, you know, if you deal with a, a major old school bank that's happened to me.

Uh, someone sent some money from Macau and it wasn't, it wasn't masses, it was 20 grand.

It was a enough.

And this made the bank meltdown for like ages.

They, they froze the account and turned up.

They were like, why did you get money?

We were like, well, we'd sold some cosmetics in China.

They're our distributor and they paid us.

You know, so they, but they're like, Macau is one of the most black money areas of the world.

Yep.

We now have to monitor your account constantly and we need all the paperwork and like, you know, these, the, the bigger banks Snap West is, I mean, I tried to just pay a musician,

um, yesterday and, you know, in, into his local bank account here, although he's overseas and you know, he, and they rang me up and they were like, where did you get the bank?

He, I was like, well, he just emailed them to me.

And I'm like, I know it's him.

Cause I know how he writes.

And they're like, we're not gonna allow the payment.

Please get him to date.

Verbal conversation, you know?

And in a way I was like, okay, fair enough.

You're doing your job.

You're right.

Maybe it's bullshit, but how did the e-money cope with that?

Because there seems to be an ability with e-money to move money around.

Yeah.

But they operate within the parameters that they're given by the regulators.

So, I mean, I, I, off the top of my head, can't think of many e-money providers that would accept money in from Macau.

Right?

I mean, that's an extreme example.

But yeah, you do have a, an appetite.

And a lot of this does come down to compliance appetite, so, You know, again, you can't name me a lo a a sort of an international bank or certainly a, um, a large international bank that most people would know of that hasn't been fined money laundering, you know, they all have, right?

Yeah.

And, and therefore that becomes with its risk and you know, therefore the risk appetite dwindles all the time.

Whereas with some of the money providers, obviously they have a slightly healthier appetite.

You still have to fit within the compliance bucket.

You know, and this is what's very clear, and people have to understand, there's no cutting corners.

You know, you still have to provide the right paperwork, source of funds, source of wealth, still king of the castle.

If you cannot provide, you know, a clear paperwork of where that money's come from and, and that the, the source of those funds is, fits within our compliance appetite, then you're not getting, you know, you're not getting an account, let alone having sort of flow of funds.

Yeah.

So it's not that they're getting around it.

I just think that there is a sort of slightly different appetite and they have, and this is another thing that you know, comes in, they have a dedicated teams to try and investigate this.

So onboarding, great question.

People always ask why, why go to NatWest takes six months and you know, and never get an answer.

You guys can do it in a couple of days.

How do you do that?

Well, we have a team, or our partners have a team that you know, based internationally that will have maybe five or six individuals working on one account.

They can open it within a couple of days because they've actually gotta dedicate, they've paid to have the skillset set.

Yeah.

To have people actually look into this.

It's almost where the banks have gone wrong and, and, and, and Metro started doing it.

I'm not sure if they had any impact because I was banging along to them for ages, like just.

Charge people a thousand pounds, if that's what it costs you, because sometimes it's madness.

You, Amina, it's madness.

It's like, I've been to their offices in Australia with the Department of Trade.

I know the ceo, they're all verified.

You know, it's like, why?

Why are we freaking out?

You know?

But, but again, you know, again, it does come down to the fact that people maybe have to sort of slightly understand that the banks don't want their business because

they do enter into a risk matrix, which isn't gonna produce them much money, and therefore you are just a cost and a liability to the business, rightly or wrongly.

You know, and I think people, it does have to be an understanding that if you are entering into a new market and you don't have the local compliance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, then the bank doesn't have a God-given Right.

To give you an account.

You know?

And I think that yes, the banks perhaps, you know, have got a, a slightly heightened, you know, sense of, of risk at the moment, but it ultimately is nothing to do with me.

Uh, you know, I'm not here to talk about their, their sort of risk appetite.

Are you proud of, um, where London is in this FinTech world, or do you think we could do things a lot better still?

Well, I think our banking, I mean, I travel a lot internationally for work.

You know, north America is our largest growth market.

You know, I, I, I have great relationships in, in Calgary and in Canada, Western Canada.

Um, and our banking is, whether it's FinTech or sort of traditional banking, is streams ahead of, of where it is in other jurisdictions.

Mm-hmm.

So I think in that respect, absolutely.

Then, then yes.

And I think if you go to sort of bog standard, when we're talking a couple hundred million dollar turnover companies, so they're not small.

That is not small, you know, and, and you go not a medium No, but in, in America and, and calendar, that's not, you know, that's not uncommon, let's say.

And they'll be dealing in, in, you know, pretty big, let's say car.

You know, manufacturers in, in Germany, you know, for the last 30 years they've been sending their invoices in Euros to the, to the business in Germany.

But putting us dollar Bank account details on the invoice.

So the German firm is basically paying out Euros into US dollar account, whichever bank they're using is just going, thanks a lot.

We'll do the FX at 2%, 3%, whatever.

You'll never know.

We go into that boardroom and say, oh, by the way, within a day or two, we can give you a collection account in Europe in your name that your client can pay in euros, which is easier for them by the way.

And then you can control the process of F fx, et cetera, et cetera.

They're like, they don't believe you.

It's almost instant.

Well, yeah, exactly.

The payment rails are instant.

And look, you know, we could, we could, you know, do a whole nother podcast on the ins and out to the actual product range.

But ultimately I think the message is, is that, you know, here in Europe, here in London, here in the uk, you know, we do have a a, a modern treasury product range, which is quite superior.

To, to many other jurisdictions and often meet our meetings.

People do not believe that we can achieve the product range that, that we tell them we can.

What do you say to a business then?

A small or medium sized business?

You know, who, who, who's looking for solutions?

Um, cuz so many companies are global now.

I mean, what, what are you gonna say?

Well, well, I say accept help.

You know, you know, don't, don't be, you've obviously mentioned a lot of companies still want that Bricks and water.

They still want the, you know, the sort of what they, they.

Perceive anyway to be a traditional bank account, but I think a lot of them have, have come to the conclusion that, you know, there's no, there's no bank manager in that bricks and mortar.

Absolutely.

A building that is going to talk to you or spend any time on you or give a fuck.

I mean, there is, if you'd moving enough money, but it, it's then very, there has to a shed load of money though.

But you can still have, there's still, and this is, this is the point, and this is what, you know, I talk a lot about there, there is, there is now people don't understand that there is a, there is a seat at the table for people like us who have been innovative.

We've gone out to the market, we've, we've created essentially a front office white label, which has partnered up with much larger regulated entities to bring those regulated entities products to the client.

Because often the regulated entity doesn't want to deal with the client.

They don't have the, the way or means, or they're not bothered, et cetera, et cetera.

So what we've done is allowed.

Sort of the underlying client will access a far greater sort of modern treasury world, which is accounts in America, fx, you know, whatever it might be, through our network.

So what would I say to them is I would say, well, yes, be prepared, but also carry on with your traditional banking relationships.

But just be aware that actually having help and you know, being able to have support via sort of more modern.

Um, treasury methods, you know, probably, well, you offer someone to talk to, I mean, to your point, if you deal with, most of my class will just say, oh, Andy, I'll have to do an Australian, Andy.

I just want someone, you know, that always gets into trouble.

Oh, I know.

Every time I, uh, I do a villain.

I always do an Australian as well, so, you know, you know, I just want someone to talk to.

You know, I've, I've got transactions going on.

I mean, they, they cracked me up the bank.

I remember going to Japan.

Years back and you know, you're supposed to tell the bank when you go to Japan or whatever, or you're supposed to tell, you know, someone told me that, well, yeah, you, you sort of, yeah.

So I rang them up and I told them and I said, I'm going to Japan.

And they shut all my credit cards down in Japan.

And actually when you're in Japan, it's real fuck up cause you don't have a phone.

I dunno if it's changed cuz your phones don't work.

So you have nothing suddenly, you know, and I remember we got some change together and I went to this.

Payphone box and I was having to like feed it to Nat wet and I walked through and I was like, listen, you need to not cut me off.

I fucking torture.

I was in Japan and it was literally like beep, beep, beep.

And then, and then it sort of ended and then one of my cards started working.

So they obviously took pity on me and said, fucking now.

But I agree with you and I think that you know that personal service, we say that, you know, we give you this sort of FinTech product that allows you to run things autonomously, but we offer a human service.

We offer a private bank style service.

And even the other night, American client booked too much dollars.

You know, they emailed at half 10, you gave time, picked up the phone, spoke to them, sorted the trade out, you know, and, and, and then it sorted.

And I think really people are now realizing that, you know, and again, if you think about the pricing element to this, people are moving away from a race to the bottom, just cheap FX product.

What they want to do is have service.

They want to be able to know that their product isn't, Ridiculously expensive.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

But they also want to know they're getting value, they're getting service.

There is a human, there is a team at the end of the phone that someone can pick up and say, Rob, I've got this problem, or I've got this, um, you know, this scenario, can you, can I walk it through with you?

So it's not just about cheapness.

They want hundred.

Hopefully we've.

Bottomed out though.

Yeah.

We don't need no way.

Cause on, on lots of areas.

China brought this incredible reduction in costs into the market with this huge labor force.

But I, you know, you see that in logistic.

You see it in interesting.

Oh my God.

That's what my entire business is about, is I'm not the cheapest, but I'm good.

If that's not a thing, then I'm fucked.

It's just sad if you buy only on Costco cuz you get what you pay for.

Yeah, but I mean, it is a silly analogy.

We use it, you know, in different formats, but you know, people ask you about price and what have you said?

Well, yeah, but places like HARs wouldn't exist if everyone was shopping.

You know, the cheapest place for, it's the same thing.

Let's go with Fulham somewhere really nice.

And now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking Financial and legal advice since 1935.

You can find us@ariclark.com.

What do you think is bullshit in business?

I think the.

Self.

So huge amount of self-promotion.

I don't enjoy, I, I, I don't enjoy LinkedIn.

Um, I don't enjoy people that are so constantly, it's just bollocks.

I'm sorry.

I'm gonna be honest.

I hate people go, I'm a founder and I, and these are my 25 struggling points.

It's like, fuck off and just get on with doing a job.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Maybe unpopular opinion.

No, I think that's a popular opinion.

That whole sort of, oh, this is what I did and this I struggled and, and I'm telling you all this stuff.

It's like, yeah, but we don't really care.

Just get on, build your business.

And what do you think LinkedIn should be used as sort of.

Without everyone posting all their bullets.

No, I mean, look at, I, I'm, I'm probably, no, it's okay to say it.

I agree.

I agree about the evangel.

What, but what, what should you, what should you communicate?

Yeah.

I mean, we, we are just starting to do a bit more of it, and I think it's more about.

You know, I think just the solutions is, I mean we, as I said, we are very key on solutions, you know, trying to help clients add value, et cetera.

My client base and my network on LinkedIn don't want to hear about, you know, my struggles as a founder.

Really.

They'd rather know that we've got this, you know, fantastic product that can help them with their whatever.

I think it should just be quite factual.

Um, but equally, you know, I I, I'm not telling people, you know, I'm not, I'm not against people having their, but I will unfollow you.

But I've been to so many talks that are like, you know, you have to spend 10 minutes on LinkedIn every day.

Like, that's the only way that you're gonna get anything out of it.

And I mean, life is frankly too short.

Yeah, no, I agree.

And I, and I think that, you know, for me, you know, I like to sort of do things relatively organically.

You know, I think, you know, being told you have to do these five things as a founder and.

You know, your, your business will be immeasurably approved if you do this, this, and this.

And they say, well, fine.

It might have been for you.

But you know, I think everyone's different.

Yeah, everyone's different.

So now we're gonna move on to our five second rule, which is where we're gonna ask you a series of questions, get to know you a little better.

You have five seconds or so to answer each question, and we're not gonna interrupt or extend that much.

And we've got Antonio in the production seat today.

Big up.

Antonio.

Cue the music please.

Antonio.

And we're off.

What was your first job?

Uh, football coach in Thailand.

Oh, very good.

What was your worst job?

Some form of fruit picking in Mildura in Australia.

I've heard this.

Tell me about banana.

So do I get more than five seconds?

I am liking the way you responded.

Cause it sounds like, um, mastermind.

Yeah, it does.

Um, favorite subject at school?

Sport.

That's not a subject.

What's your special skill?

Ooh.

Um, being dyslexic.

Yeah.

Oh, good answer.

What did you wanna be when you grew up?

Football commentator.

Did you really?

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

But the real ambition of mine was to be a what?

Sports commentator.

Yeah.

He'd broaden it out past football.

Yeah.

I did a poem in on football.

Yeah.

A sports commentator.

Yeah.

My, my brother's, uh, godfather was, uh, Brian Moore.

No way.

Yeah.

And the sports commentator means thanks to be sorry.

Anyway, but yeah, sports commentary.

What did your parents want you to be when you grew up?

Uh, happy, I think.

What's your go-to karaoke song?

Oh, blind me, uh, summer 69 by Brian Adams.

Okay.

So.

16, his Go Sauce.

Yeah.

Sorry, I was just trying to remember it.

Anyway.

Office, dogs, business or bullshit.

I occasionally laugh B, but bullshit.

Yes.

But my, my lovely, um, shout out to my team and, and, and Jennifer, she, she has a dog that comes to the office occasionally.

Have you ever been fired?

No.

Probably can't be.

Now you've run the businesses.

Oh, no.

Well, I mean, I, I, I hope I don't have an aggressive takeover at some point, but, uh, no.

Never been fired.

No.

Uh, what's your vice?

Oh, well, if you asked me six months ago, probably different than it's now.

Um, well, it feels like there's a story there.

No, no, no more just, you know, kind of.

The, the I, uh, what's my vice?

I dunno.

Uh, chocolate.

Oh, is it?

Yeah.

I feel you're chocolate Or Harrys?

Harry.

I don't, not Harry, but my wife would be laughing cuz she would say Harry Bow HaBO.

I'm a little kid.

Really?

That's still all my children's Haribos.

Ah, no way.

And, and you and I tap from that, that you, you're drinking less now these days.

Are you?

But yeah, but not that I was never a big drinker, but I think I got to the point where I have, you know, with health in general, it's very sort of, you know, I'm doing, I've done some of these methylation tests and understand more about my deficiencies.

What's methylation tests?

Oh, it's.

It's where they, they do a test and you, you understand your sort of DNA deficiencies regarding vitamins and what have you.

So it's quite person personalized health stuff, which is so then you can take the right, supple.

Correct.

Exactly.

So rather than just saying, so for me it's, um, zinc, B12 and a few other things.

And, and actually I've seen some pretty, some pretty remarkable Tell, tell me more.

What you, so is this a specific company you went to or, uh, well, I just found online, but yeah, I mean, a lot of it's.

You know, sort of information I've found through podcasts and, and what have you, I think it's quite topical, you know, 2023 is, uh, people are talking a lot more about sort of, you know, personalized health rather than just sort of generic, oh, I think this is good.

So yeah, they've been talking forever about it, but now it seems we've actually started working.

It's pretty good.

So it stems from really from me where I, I, I've had a bad back for as long as I can remember when boy with it, we've had five buck operations, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I've always had a bad back and, and I thought just, you know, recently I, with the business and being a dad of three and all the rest of it, you know, I kind of got to the point in life where I sort of realized that actually having.

Three or four glasses of wine, three or four times a week.

Not that you were getting drunk, but it was, that was having an effect on sleep and therefore that was having an effect on decision making.

That was therefore being you a bit grumpier.

And therefore you, you know, and if you bring it back to my back, you know, I think my back wasn't getting better and I was just a, you know, I was a bit

overweight, et cetera, and I just thought, well, look, rather than just talking about it, you can, as an adult, making decisions to try and change things.

And if you try and change it for a few months, we Sure that's not your wife talking.

No, no, no.

I think, well, I think, again, I think if you don't see results and you stop it, anything, I'll bugger her.

I'm gonna go back to, you know, drinking and whatever.

But I think for me, I really genuinely did see.

Better sleep, weight loss, and my back stop hurting as much, you know, being much more hap you know, train of thoughts, much, much clearer.

It is, you know, and I energy level, yeah, I was, sleep is so important as well.

Yeah.

I, well sleep, I mean, again, you know, I, I I, I'm a big advocate of, of sleep and, and, and I think it's important.

But, but yeah, I think I, I saw the benefits and, and I've really so far reaped the rewards and I've been in, you know, I've been enjoying it.

Um, and therefore, yeah, he, health has become a lot more important to me.

You know, in the last year or so.

Yeah, it's gotta be really good wine and a really nice moment.

And then that's my, well, yeah, I mean, I say to my wife, I said, don't worry, you know, I basically now gonna be exclusively drinking with you and more overseas having nice wine.

I mean, that's fine.

So I haven't sort of stopped drinking, but what I've stopped is just having three glasses of wine when you get home on a Thursday night for the sake of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well that, that's medicating, isn't it?

My brother taught me something that he was taught, never reached for the bottle to medicate.

Only reached to celebrate it.

It rhymed.

I can't, I haven't quite got it right.

Again in an American accent.

That would be great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I spoke to your brother the other day.

It shout out to him.

He was, he was fantastic.

But, uh, but no, we still, I still buy wine.

I still love wine.

I still say it was almost a passion still of mine.

But I think, you know, again, just, just that sort of being a father and having young kids and whatever, and just realizing that actually stop moaning about being grumpy.

Try and change it.

So yeah, this is, if you, you want to give us finally how to get hold of you, how to find the company, your 32nd pitch to the world, uh, tell us more.

Come through the channels like, like uh, RI Clark.

We are.

Yeah, we're open business axim fest.com.

We're looking to add value to your international corporate.

Enter its new markets.

So there we have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit, and we'll be back with BWB on Thursday.