Navigating the End of Coaching Relationships: When to Refer and Let Go

In this episode, Angie and John dive into the challenging aspects of coaching, including when and how to end coaching relationships.

They discuss the importance of recognizing when a client may need therapy instead of coaching, knowing one's limits as a coach, and the value of referring clients to other professionals when necessary.

Angie shares her strategy of pausing long-term clients to encourage them to implement what they've learned, while John stresses the importance of continuous personal development for coaches.

The hosts emphasize maintaining integrity in client relationships and offer practical advice for managing rapport and avoiding over-dependence.

Tune in for insightful discussions on sustaining effective and ethical coaching practices.

keywords

coaching, referral, coaching relationship, therapy, boundaries, personal development

takeaways

• Know when to refer a client to another professional, such as a therapist, if they need more specialized help.
• Maintain boundaries and avoid blurring the lines between coaching and other professions.
• Take breaks in the coaching relationship to allow clients to implement what they've learned and gain clarity.
• Continuously work on personal development to stay on the leading edge of coaching and provide value to clients.

titles

• Knowing When to Refer a Client
• Taking Breaks to Implement and Gain Clarity

Sound Bites

• "Just because you have your psychologist or a psychiatrist and the coach, if you're in a coaching relationship, just because you have that psychiatric background, sure it can inform what you do. But if you end up becoming the psychiatrist in the situation."
• "Psychoanalysis is much more where you need to dive deeper into the issues and probably stay, work with them for a long time. Coaching is much more solution focused and was all about taking action, getting things moving forward."
• "Let them go for a minute actually brings on like they might have clarity on something and go, wow, that was really amazing. But what's the next question mark?"

00:00 Introduction and Personal Reflections on Coaching

01:36 When to Refer a Client

03:13 Blurring the Lines Between Coaching and Therapy

04:56 Maintaining Professional Boundaries

19:55 The Importance of Personal Development for Coaches

25:58 Engaging with the Audience

Angie,

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Angie: John.

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John: do you ever get bored of coaching?

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Angie: No, never.

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Why, do you?

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John: Well, I had a brief period where

I fell out of love with it for a while,

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but eventually I realized it's in my DNA.

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Angie: Alright, so then, what

do you do in the meantime?

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John: I joined the circus.

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Angie: you mean a job in sales?

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John: Yep, I took a job in sales.

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But what about clients, Angie?

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Have you ever got bored

with a certain client?

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Angie: I'm gonna take

the fifth on that one.

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John: Very wise, but have you

gotten to points where the coaching

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relationship needed to end?

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Angie: Of course, absolutely.

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But what have you done

in those situations?

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John: Oh, that's easy.

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I just ghost them.

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Angie: You did what?

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All right.

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Once again, we need to talk.

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Let's get started with the show.

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John: Okay, this is a fun topic and

probably isn't going to take us all that

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long today, although we always say that.

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But we're talking about when are

the right times to refer a client?

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When does the coaching

relationship need to end?

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Or you recognize that coaching

isn't what the person needs, or that

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you're not what the person needs.

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What are the times that you've experienced

that Angie, as a professional coach?

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Angie: So you talked about a few

different things there all in one breath.

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John: I like,

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Angie: like, yeah, because no, and I

think it's good because I think it's

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great to point out to our audience that.

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There are different scenarios and

different situations where I don't

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ever look at the relationship

as though it maybe needs to end.

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I don't think I ever, you said

that and I was like, what?

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I don't think I ever

looked at it like that.

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So first thing, when to

refer somebody, right?

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So I have definitely referred people

we've talked in past sessions.

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We've talked about like if somebody like

is really more in need of like therapy.

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Right.

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And we've talked about gently guiding

them and saying, maybe, and I'm not

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saying that you can't coach at the

same time that somebody is in therapy.

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Right.

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But we've, so we've talked about that.

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You're not a therapist and if you

are and you're able to incorporate

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into your coaching, that's fine.

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But if you don't have the

credentials, you need to definitely

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sidestep that and refer people to.

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Either somebody that you trust and say,

Hey, I can recommend somebody or just

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gently nudge them toward that direction.

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So that's one way to

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John: But I want to interrupt that

because I know coaches who do that.

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And I have this feeling about just

because you can go outside of the

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bounds of your coaching relationship

with your knowledge or expertise, I

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don't think that means that you should.

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Just because you have, maybe you're

a psychologist or a psychiatrist

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and a coach, if you're in a coaching

relationship, just because you

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have that psychiatric background,

sure, it can inform what you do.

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But if you end up becoming the

psychiatrist in the situation, you've

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changed the relationship to a degree.

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And also, you're probably not getting

paid anything like, what you could be

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getting, what you should be getting

for what you're doing with the clients.

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I see this a lot with coaches.

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I know coaches who are in that position,

who have that level of expertise.

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And I do think it, it's not so much

about blurring the lines of the client

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relationship as it is about having that

value on what you do and what you offer

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to people and keeping the delineations

there, I've been able to say, well, just

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because I just, let's just say for us,

but just because we've done a lot of

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work with people to set up professional

speaking businesses, doesn't mean that

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you get to have that for free in a

coaching session where we're actually just

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working on some other area of your life.

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It's you want to work with

me specifically on that.

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We're going to have to renegotiate.

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We have to talk about

some different pricing.

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Do you get what I mean there?

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Angie: Yeah, listen, I get it.

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I absolutely, I definitely, I even agree.

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I just know that there's, I

don't know the people that, I've

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watched people blur the lines.

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And although I don't agree with it, I know

that there would be definitive pushback.

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If somebody was like, well, I'm a

PhD and I have this and I have that.

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I feel that I have more insights

and I think I can be an authority.

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That's on them.

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I don't recommend it.

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I do recommend personally

deciding who you want to be.

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Do you want to be their therapist

or do you want to be their coach?

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Because how my vision of

how you approach therapy.

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Coaching versus therapy

are very different.

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It's not even just technique and things.

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There's a difference in, I don't want

to take people back to like when you

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were two and now I don't do that.

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I want to have an understanding, but my

coaching is always about taking people

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forward and not leaving them stuck.

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So, and I'm not saying,

okay, be aware of that.

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I don't mean that therapists

leave people stuck.

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But I don't do deep dives into

daddy issues and mommy issues

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and things like that, right?

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That's not what I do so I think you know

you pointing that out is very I think

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it's important to understand so yeah, so

I think that if some people are really

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super stuck in the pain and in the You

know the things that you just can't get

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them out of that are very deep seated

then You know referring them to that type

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of professional Is important but then

There's the other there, I have definitely

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come across clients who, although I could

have still helped them move forward, they

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needed a different type of coach than me.

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Right?

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So it's, it also comes down to who

you are as a coach and what your

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methodologies are and things like that.

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And I have done that twice where

I've said, you know what, I want

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to, this is not going, I don't

think this is what you need.

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This is what I'm seeing.

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How do you feel about that?

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I can refer you and then kind of do that.

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And I have done that more where somebody

is looking for like specifically business

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consulting, tell me how to do this.

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Tell me how to market.

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That's not really what I do.

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No.

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And John, come on, give me a look.

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Should I be the person they talk to about

their marketing and their technology?

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John: not the technology.

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Right.

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But yeah, it's

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Angie: don't

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John: It's one of those things.

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No, I mean, I have background in all,

but we all have very backgrounds.

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I know you, you and I have a lot of

expertise from other areas that we

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can bring into our coaching and most

elements of that can inform the coaching.

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I think we have to watch the

lines between are we actually

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providing a little bit too much?

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Well, I still think, yeah,

great to provide lots of.

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Additional value to your customers to a

point at what point is that just devaluing

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the other stuff that you have and blurring

those lines is like I do think you need

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to have, like you say, have your identity

as a coach, know what you're about.

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Because this show is ultimately about

coaching and I do think there is a

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difference between psychoanalysis

and coaching psychoanalysis, much

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more where you need to dive deeper

into the issues and probably don't

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stay work with them for a long time.

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Coaching is much more solution

focused and was all about taking

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action, getting things moving forward.

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They are very different outcomes and that

don't necessarily work well together.

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That's not

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Angie: disagree.

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I think if you've experienced it

and for anybody who hasn't, it

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may feel like, what do you mean?

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I don't get that.

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But I think I only clearly

understood that when I came

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across people who were in need.

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And I realized and recognized like, wow,

this is really intensive and somebody

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needs more than, what I am willing or

able really more able to give to them.

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Yeah.

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So when have you, if

ever referred somebody?

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John: too many times.

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So, certainly I've been in situations

where I've been in teams with coaches.

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You and I both have had that experience

where I've been able to say, you know

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what, actually, this is the, this is

probably a coach that you, who you should

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work with on this particular issue.

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Or where the rapport is off.

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And I think you might be

better with another coach.

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I've been able to do that

in certain situations.

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But not too often, it really

hasn't come up all that often.

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The times where it's been most important

though, has been where there is more of

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a natural end to the coaching, more of a

natural end to the coaching relationship.

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So at a point where it's I can think,

well, I think we've brought this up.

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Certainly I think you probably

mentioned it a number of times on

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recordings that we've done already.

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of this whole thing of checking in with

people to make sure they're still getting

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the value from what they're doing.

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And it's really important to know

that if they're going to continue

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working with you, like we, we spoke

recently about, I think I had a client

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that was with me for 12 years or so.

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It was the longest, had certainly

had a number of others that were

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like five, six, seven years as well.

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Probably more average for most of my

clients over my lifetime has been more

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of a three year renewal period which

is still pretty, still pretty decent

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and a long time to work with people.

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But even then there has come

times where the renewal is probably

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isn't going to happen, but we just

don't want, I think the work we've

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done together is kind of done.

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Are you looking to move on to

your coaching relationship?

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So it's either been trying to give

them some advice as to how to move

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in and afford with their coaching

relationship and keep something going.

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Or as you're saying it, here's

someone who would actually be

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better for you to work with.

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I've probably done more referring

in discovery calls, though, than I

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ever have with long term clients.

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Yeah,

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Angie: once you were in it.

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So I think those, that's two different

things for me, what you just mentioned.

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First thing is I want to caution

people that our instinct is,

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whether it's rapport, right?

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You mentioned if it's not great rapport,

or even if it's something like, Hey, I

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want to help with business consulting.

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And that's really what I want.

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I'm a believer that everybody

can be coached, anybody.

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You sit any person down in front of me,

I can find something to coach them on.

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Right.

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I can do that, but not

everybody's a believer in that.

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So I think that for me, there have been

times where I have intentionally paused

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a longer term client so that they do it.

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And I know a lot of people

don't believe in this, but.

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So that they can actually go out and

put some things into, it's almost like

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somebody who was into rehab, right?

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30, 60, 90, a hundred duty whatever

you do, there comes a point where you

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kind of have to be taking everything

you've learned and putting it into

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practice, but the reason that I say

that the pause is important is we're

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not here to solve every single issue.

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So you want to be able to kind of,

I want to be able to kind of say,

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okay, what are they actually doing

when they're out there and they're

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not in coaching every single week?

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And I usually put it on again, 90 day

pause and with an understanding that

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we're going to meet on this date,

we're going to kind of go do another,

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but I do like a 30 minute discovery

and say, okay, where have you been at?

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What's been happening?

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What's the transformation?

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What helped?

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What didn't?

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So that now I can take

them to a new space.

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I can intentionally say, okay.

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Knowing what you know and

implementing what you did.

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What would be next for you?

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that's how i've kept the majority

of my ongoing clients because They

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know I really want them to go out.

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I mean after five years or six years or

seven years with somebody I need to know

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that it's not just There's a lot going on.

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There's a lot going on in that time.

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So I want to see what's really

hitting And the best way for that

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to happen and then for them as well,

and it's really a big accountability.

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I mean, for me as a coach, because

if they go out and they go, wow, I

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can't believe I'm really implementing

these bigger strategies, these bigger

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tools, then that's huge for them.

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So now they actually see much more value.

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I've not had anybody, I can't,

I'm not being ego about this, but

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I've not had anybody come back and

say, no, nothing changed for me.

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You suck.

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Nobody's ever done that.

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What they've done is they've

come back much more enlightened.

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So that's just what I do

and how it's worked for me.

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John: think there have been a bunch of

times where The coaching relationships

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I've had with people have resumed after a

period of time where they wanted to come

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That's nice.

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Sometimes again, you want to make sure

it's right for them to come back and say,

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okay, well, why do you want to come back?

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What is it you want to work on?

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And maybe it isn't even just for

a short while, but always there's

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progress that seems to be done, but

it's nice that they recognize that.

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All right, well, you helped me

get to this point before and now

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I'm ready to get to a new point.

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Is that great?

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You can do that.

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But again, you have to just trust

your own instinct and judgment as

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a coach as to, are you the right

person to be doing this with them?

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Or should they, are they

becoming maybe dependent on you?

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Are they, is there expectations that

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aren't so healthy there?

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But I haven't really faced

those issues too often.

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I wonder if other people have.

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Or be.

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I'd be interested to hear from our

listener and see have you faced these

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situations where you're not sure

if you should continue the coaching

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relationship or not at some point.

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Yeah,

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Angie: saying something before and I don't

know where I went, somewhere in the woods.

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But the thing that I wanted to caution

people on is two different spaces.

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If you feel like the rapport really

isn't there don't latch on to them

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because you're afraid of losing

a client or money or something.

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That's the first thing.

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Really be true to your craft because if

you hold on, chances are you're not going

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to gain traction with them later, and

that's only going to lead to bad reviews.

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I think if you're honest up front

and say, hey, I thought this was okay

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during a discovery call or something,

but I feel like, and maybe you try

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to resolve it, maybe, but if you

can't, don't be afraid to let it go.

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Don't be afraid.

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The second piece is kind of to what I

said, I'm not saying that everybody should

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subscribe to what I just said let them go.

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If you set them free, they'll come

back if they're supposed to like, no,

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but I have had, I've worked with some

really high level people and they really

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appreciate that John's laughing at me.

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That I really appreciate that.

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That I'm willing to say, you know

what, why don't we take 30, 45 days?

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That's enough time for you to really

see if what implement these things,

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what would, what's most important for

you out of all the work we've done.

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And then let's revisit this.

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There's the urge to, I got to

get her to sign up right now.

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Yes, I believe that in sales, it's strike

while the iron is hot while they love you.

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You're on the honeymoon phase,

but for a higher level client, if

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they're actually seeing change.

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They're coming back and they're going to

come back and they're going to come back.

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So I would say that

just take the fear away.

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Don't clutch onto them and get

your talons in them for dear life.

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Because I think that is

what everybody wants to do.

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And I've had more than half

of those people say, wow,

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what a breath of fresh air.

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I'm not generally, I'm not their

first coach and I'm not just trying

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to think they really undertake.

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Oh, wow.

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She really.

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Gives a crap about me

doing better, being better.

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No,

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John: of can you want to ideally make a

sale whilst it's fresh in people's minds.

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People do tend to forget about things.

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However, I think in those conversations,

in my experience, it's If you actually

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make the arrangement and say, Hey let's

check back in again, let's set, make an

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appointment we'll just be like a five

minute chat for 30 days from now, 45

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days from now, whenever you decide that

tab is left open, okay maybe there's

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the whole thing will run a place, not

so hard by them, but that mental tab

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has been left open and then they're

going to be checking in with you.

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I'm sure, of course, they can

cancel whatever stuff comes out.

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Family issues are the ones, the usual

sort of things if they don't really

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want to do it, but that's fine.

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That just means they don't

really want to do it.

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But for everyone else, it's certainly you

can come back and have those check ins.

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And often people do really appreciate

that and say, so there's no pressure here.

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It's just if you decide that if this is

the point where you're ready, then great.

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Let's check in and let's

at least see where you are.

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And sometimes I can go on for a while.

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I've had several of those with

people in the past, but, and

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they have sometimes come back.

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But not always.

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Angie: and listen, I haven't had, you

and I have talked statistics before.

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I've shared some of my

statistics with you.

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Over time, my statistics in terms

of people re enrolling in with

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me, has increased exponentially.

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That's what I'm going to say.

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You and I've talked the numbers,

I'm not going to get into the

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numbers, but it's a lot, right?

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Would you agree?

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Wow, that's not so, and it's not,

again I don't think it's because

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I'm so amazing and the bravest thing

since sliced bread, but I do think

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it's because I am the way that I am.

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And I tell people from the very

beginning, everybody needs coaching.

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I don't care if you're for 10 years.

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What we don't want is things to

become mundane and orally familiar,

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which is why letting them go for

a minute actually brings on they

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might have clarity on something and

go, wow, that was really amazing.

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But what's the next question mark?

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There's always think about life.

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There's always a new flip

and question mark, always.

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John, you know me.

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Come on.

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Every time we talk, there's

a question mark for me.

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John: I look, I think that the words,

look, the words I hear out of your

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mouth more than any or anything else.

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I think it's, let me

ask you a question, I,

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Angie: Wait, let me ask you this.

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Right.

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Can I just ask you this?

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Can I just, right.

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I, John knows.

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Let me ask you this, but this is

funny if you only knew, but but so,

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so if I have as a coach truly believe

that there's always more, right.

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Sometimes in the beginning

it's easier, right.

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We're just kind of, we're mining

with them, if you will, like to

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what the issues are, the challenges,

and we have to kind of sift through

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and take out the bigger pieces.

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And then maybe it's later on that

those smaller pieces come, but I

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am a believer that I could coach

somebody for 50 years and still

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always find the next new challenge.

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And, I think that the longer you are in

a relationship with a client, the more

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challenging the coaching actually becomes

because you're not looking at all the

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obvious as you are in the beginning.

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So yeah.

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John: I, something just came up for me

there, but I think it's really important.

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And again, this may be, I don't

think this is something I have

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on our potential episodes list.

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So I might add it on there, but one

of the reasons why I feel that I've

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been able to maintain very long term

coaching relationships over the years.

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is because I consistently work

on my personal development, like

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consistently,

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Angie: Ooh, he's so fun goolish right now.

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John: but this is, I really am not

trying to impress anyone by this.

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It's just, it's one of those

things that ended up becoming super

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important for me very early on.

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I think when I first got back into

coaching and personal development and

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when I first got involved in it I probably

hadn't picked up a book for years, like

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my education is finished when I finished

my degree and I closed my last book.

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So other than the manuals I had to read

when I joined the airline and the yearly

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checks on that, those were the only

books I probably ever read afterwards.

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Until I

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Angie: So once you flip the

tassel, it was over for you.

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John: yeah, until I got into personal

development and the whole thing of

384

becoming I guess a learning machine, if

you like, That became really important

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to me, so much so that it just has

become a daily habit of always reading

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something, always having audio books

on the go, listening to podcasts.

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There's always growth.

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There's always ideas and consistent

development because it allows me to

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keep growing and developing, which

means there is always new things to talk

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about with people or to help people.

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new resources, new ideas to

work with other people on.

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And my knowledge and experience

bank is ever expanding.

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Also from potentially from other

coaching sessions, from the

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work I do with other coaches.

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So that learning growth journey and the

coaches that I've had along the way as

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well, have kept me And I'd say it feels

like I'm the leading edge of coaching.

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Like just being able to consistently

say, we're not gonna run out of things.

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As you say, we're not gonna

run outta things to coach on.

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We could work together for 50 years.

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Angie: Listen, and you know what?

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I'm always careful too.

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Like I agree.

403

And I love that.

404

And 10, 000%, I could be talking about

any specific topic and every, I mean,

405

if you saw my desk, sometimes I have

to keep post it notes in my drawer

406

because I never know when even a client

might say something that I'm like,

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Ooh, that was really whatever, right?

408

And I write it down because any recipe,

that I get any information, I have

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to play with it and tweak it and.

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Do more with it.

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That's just ingrained in me and you're

right because I'm certainly not coaching

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the way I did 10 5 or even 2 years

ago because I knew and more relevant

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information Right, sometimes even

our environment, the world even can

414

affect how we approach certain things.

415

So we have to keep ourselves

relevant, but I also think that

416

if we're constantly developing and

growing then of course You Right.

417

Then it makes sense that our, we're

able to pass that on to our clients.

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It's not, from 10 years ago, not stagnant.

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John: I was just thinking of this

probably terrible metaphor, really

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But

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Angie: Oh my word,

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what?

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John: when I used to go to my

grandparents' house there was

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always a pot of stew on the stove

on a low light, like, all the time.

425

And it would consistently have

stuff added to it, so it Yeah,

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it was they would call it scouse.

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So this is like in Merseyside,

Liverpool kind of area, scouses is like

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named after this famous mince stew.

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But this was always on the stove.

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So vegetables and things

would always get into it.

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It would stay on the stove on a low light

for forever, just cooking thing forever.

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At least that's what it seemed like.

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So there'd always be fresh stuff getting

added to it and the stew would keep

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growing and growing back and expanding.

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I don't know if it's the best

metaphor because it's like, well,

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a lot of those vegetables were

very stewed after a long time, but

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I'm not sure how healthy that was.

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However it kept it going and it kept thing

expanding and renewing and refreshing.

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And then that's, I guess that's where

that terrible metaphor came into my head.

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Angie: But I get it, right?

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It's you're so, I can't even right now.

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He's just giggling at himself,

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I think it's important to recognize

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John: I can make

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you just

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Angie: I think that's amazing.

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I love, I actually was sitting there

going, Ooh, what was it like in there?

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I just brought back my own memories, but

things do change and things do evolve

449

.

And it's okay to, give your clients a break.

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It's okay to, not just want to

pull, grasp on for dear life.

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And, you don't hold on and get up this

vision of somebody being like dragging

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some, grabbing onto somebody's ankles

and being dragged across the floor.

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Like we don't want that.

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And honestly, I think people will

have more respect for the craft

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because there's so many more coaches.

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There's so much competition that

I see a lot of new coaches coming

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into the business, even if they

came from a higher level position

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with that almost desperation,

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John: a good

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Angie: That mindset of lack and I'm

like, Hey, just be, you do some little

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things a little bit different and for

God's sake, don't sound, go on LinkedIn.

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Don't sound like everybody else.

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What's going to be the differentiator?

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Because whatever that is in the beginning

is what it should be for you ongoing.

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Think about how if you want

a client to refer you, what

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would you want them to say?

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About you and that's who you need to be.

468

Angie is fair.

469

All my, all of my

testimonials, she's tough.

470

She's fair.

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I'm like, that's it.

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I'm tough.

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And I'm fair.

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That's the true.

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I mean, those aren't exactly always the

words that they use, but I'm consistently

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that and she really challenges me.

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John: Yeah, I think probably some of my

clients would say some similar things,

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certainly that I will often say what

needs to be said, what they need to

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hear, rather than what they want to hear.

480

That's a good, that's good to, a good

attitude to have is that you don't

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need to hang on to those clients.

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But look, I mean, for our listener

out there listening to this, you

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may have questions about this.

484

You may have experiences that you'd like

to share with us that are different to

485

ours or even different opinions on some

of the things we've talked about today.

486

We would love to hear from you.

487

So get in touch with us.

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You can leave us a voicemail for the show.

489

It's speakpipe.

490

com forward slash the

coaching clinic podcast.

491

Or come and find us on LinkedIn.

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Come and connect with myself and Angie.

493

You'll see me posting lots

of stuff about the show.

494

You'll see Angie posting

lots of nuggets of wisdom.

495

So do come and connect with us as well.

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We'd love to see you

and hear your questions.

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And for the meantime, we will look

forward to connecting with you again

498

next week for another amazing episode.

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See you then.

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Angie: Bye for now.