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How to be a Futures-Friendly Social Investor with Erika Brodnock
Episode 17 • 17th March 2023 • Be & Think in the House of Trust • Servane Mouazan
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In this episode of Be & Think in the House of Trust, I loved listening to Erika Brodnock, an angel investor, a UK-based award-winning entrepreneur, CEO and founder of Kinhub, a philanthropist and behavioural scientist, on a mission to create fairer, more equitable workplaces for everyone. 

Erika works at the intersection of technology, well-being and product development, and she made it a purpose to find and clear paths out of outdated systems. She is the author of Extend Ventures’ Diversity Beyond Gender, the co-author of the TRANSPARENT Framework, and recently Better Venture. 

In the House of Trust, we discuss obstacles around diversity in the investment world, the barriers to entry for minoritised entrepreneurs seeking funding, and practical ways forward.

Plus, Erika shares her vision of a fairer, more equal future. 

Highlights from this episode: 

(04:15) This is the biggest issue with venture funding 

(08:03) The importance of getting to know people 

(10:57) The wealthiest place on Earth are the graveyards 

(15:44) Rising tides raise all boats 

(18:28) The white ally 

(20:21) What will the world be like in 2033? 


Useful Links 

Connect with Erika Brodnock on LinkedIn 

Kinhub https://www.kinhub.com/employers

Extend Ventures https://www.extend.vc/diversity-beyond-gender

(Report) TRANSPARENT Framework

(Book) Better Venture

Connect with Servane:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/servanemouazan/

Website: https://servanemouazan.co.uk

Subscribe to Conscious Innovation updates:

http://eepurl.com/hp0h55

Transcripts

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Hello everyone, my name is Savannah and I welcome you

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back to the house of trust. It's a podcast aimed at people who

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love to invest in social change. In this show I'm talking to

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investors will explore what it takes to show up face

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uncomfortable truth and you're bold enough to listen reflect in

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real time. Together, we look at what amplifies trust,

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accountability impact, and we also look at assumptions that

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slow us down. My guest today is Erica Brignac. She's a UK based

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award winning entrepreneur, she's philanthropist and an

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angel investor. And Erica's work is at the intersection of

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technology wellbeing and product development. And she made it a

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purpose to find and clear paths out of outdated systems. We're

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going to talk to her about all these.

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How are you Rico

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Isodyne. Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm so pleased that you can be free to talk to us today. You

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are also a PhD candidate and Research Officer at LSE is the

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inclusion initiative. And you are also co founder at extend

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ventures, where you are leading research that aims to understand

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and diversify access to venture capital and innovation finance

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for ethnically diverse entrepreneurs. And that's not

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it, you were also the author of diversity beyond gender and a co

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author of the transparent framework and recently as well

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better venture. So we can what feels your energy to find and

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clear paths out of outdated system.

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So I think for, for the most part, the the work that I do,

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has been centered around problems that I faced as an

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individual, whether that be as a parent, when I created charisma

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kids, I was quite fed up of the fact that all of the technology

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products that were on the market at the time, were geared at

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creating humors of our children. So they were only encouraged to

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consume technology or become consumed by technology. And I

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wanted to build something where they were able to start to use

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technology for their benefit and for good. So I created charisma

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kids at the time that helps children to develop emotional

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intelligence skills, and then to use those skills to learn how

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to, to to just kind of be the best versions of themselves.

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I've since gone on to to look at the access to funding,

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particularly venture capital funding by ethnically diverse

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entrepreneurs. And that was mainly because when I was

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running charisma kids, I found it impossible to fundraise and

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really considered hiring in a white male CEO, in order to, to

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kind of be able to enable my business to progress and to

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proceed. I felt that, you know, that wasn't fair. Because, you

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know, at the time, we were being told that all businesses were

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being judged on merits and we had enough merit as a company to

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be able to fundraise, but I just still couldn't do it. That led

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to me taking an MBA, and then to eventually the PhD in behavioral

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science that looks at diversifying that access. So as

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I say, I find that many of the problems that I faced are

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problems that are being faced by much broader communities than

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just myself. And then, you know, if I don't solve them who will?

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Wow. And so the, there's a wealth of ideas that can come

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out or recite, imagine and what more more came up for you during

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this this kind of bumpy journey.

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So there are a whole host of problems out there. And I think

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that part of the biggest issue that I see with venture funding

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being as kind of centered around traditional male, white, elite,

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highly educated entrepreneurs means that actually, the

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problems that exist for communities that sit outside of

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that don't mean solved. So one example is that Asian women are

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three times more likely to die in the child rearing period than

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their white counterparts. Black women are four times more likely

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to end to die in the child rearing periods than their white

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counterparts. And there isn't anything at the moment that

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solves that issue. Kin hub is the most recent company that I

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founded. And that exists to ensure that everybody is

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listened to. And but everybody receives personalized care

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throughout life's journeys. And so we seek to solve the issue of

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people not being listened to, of people being assumed to have

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thicker skin, or to feel less pain, or the kind of one size

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fits all approach to healthcare that has seen this, these

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disparities created in the first place. Now, if people like me

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aren't given any funding in order to ensure that our

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businesses are able to thrive, we ended up in situations where

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those those statistics persist. Those disadvantages, persist

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them naturally over time. They keep increasing and being

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magnified. And that just impacts all of society. And it also

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causes problems for the VCs themselves who are missing out

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on outsized returns, through solving some of these problems

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that exist in communities that they're just currently

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overlooking.

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Wow. So we've I feel that the impact in Nepal, you know, the

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social impact environmental impact, funding ecosystem sales

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got a lot of homework to do. I wonder what would you think they

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should experiment with to address this uncomfortable truth

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that you've just enumerated that still don't getting solved?

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So I think that the best thing to do is start to befriend

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people and get to know people that they wouldn't ordinarily

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associate with. It's a known fact that people make

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investments based on gut instinct and gut feel, as

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opposed to any of the things like data. I mean, we all say

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that we make database decisions, very few people actually do, we

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tend to make system one decisions, which are emotional

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decisions. And then we will back that up with logic and the

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system to thinking once the decision has already been made,

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and confirmation bias, and all sorts of other bits and pieces

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enable us to justify those decisions in our mind, once we

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already made the emotional decision. There is also a

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phenomenon called homophily, which says that, actually we

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like people that are most like us, or that we already know, and

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that we're already associated with. So for example, what we

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see is that 70% of the money that's invested into early stage

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venture goes to founding teams that have been to top 10

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universities, across the US and the UK, that happens because 70%

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or more of the venture capitalists have been to those

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same university. And if you've been to my university, I believe

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that you are the smartest out there, because actually, there's

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that homophily that says that, you know, I, I know you I trust

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you we think in the same way. And similarly if I'm the same

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gender is you or them the same ethnicity as you, it's much

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easier for me to find common ground with you and and build

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the camaraderie that's needed to get the deal from from start to

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close.

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It you know why I'm feeling is I mean, there's maybe sometimes

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not malevolence, enduring that people find they're comfortable

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to be, you know, unrolling others, they know where they

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seem to recognize, but where's the where's the space for

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drawing man imagination and risk

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in there. But the thing there isn't the space for genuine

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imagination, and innovation. And this is why I was saying that,

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in reality, venture capitalists are missing out on opportunities

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that they could have, if for outsized returns from groups

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that are being overlooked because of that homogeneity,

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that is occurring as a result of homophily. So I think that the

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first step that people can take is getting to know somebody

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different. I sit on panels all the time, and people listen to

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me speak and, and they're sometimes surprised that I can

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be eloquent. They are surprised that I'm friendly, rather than

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aggressive. And, you know, people won't necessarily display

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this outwardly. But if you look at micro aggressions, you can

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start to see that coming through. I think that actually

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if people got to know me, rather than just looking skin deep,

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they would understand that I'm here quite, you know, I'm just a

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normal person, like everybody else, and there isn't the need

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to fear me. And I think that if people start to understand that,

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that a lot of the fear based stereotypes and an information

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is out there has been information that was created in

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the times of abolition when people were making or creating

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propaganda because they wanted slavery to continue, as opposed

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to being true now today, then they would make different

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decisions. But until you get to know somebody, and you

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understand that actually, all of the things that you once feared

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aren't really necessarily true. You just don't know what you

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don't know.

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So it's interesting because it feels as if the opposite of fear

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is curiosity.

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Absolutely.

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So in your extend venture, report, their diversity beyond

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gender, which relates, there's some information in there that

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you just mentioned, I read the the opening quote, and I wanted

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to just drop it by you again, that opening quote by Les Brown,

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the wealthiest place on the planet is the graveyard because

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in the graveyard, we will find inventions that we were never

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ever exposed to ideas, dreams, that never became a reality. And

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then wonder what what, what would make it easier for

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investors to to accept that dreaming and that curiosity and

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that imagining without fear as an avenue to, to create more

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inclusive wealth?

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I think that, as I say, the first step comes with getting to

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know people, I think, if you're able to get to know people and

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understand that there's far more that unites us than separates us

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and and you get to know people and start to listen to their

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ideas and their thinking and their, their visions for the

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future, then you you open yourself up to the possibilities

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of being able to, to go on those journeys with those

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entrepreneurs to understand them and to facilitate those

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journeys. And that's the job of, of a venture capitalist or an

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impact investor, is to facilitate the dreams of someone

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that has the kind of creativity and the imagination for, for

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innovative advance. I genuinely believe that at the moment, we

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have a world in which there are a multitude of bias, if we're

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going to correct any of those biases going forward, we need to

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make sure that all sectors of society have a seat at the table

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in the creation of the future. With these investments that are

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being made. Now we're creating the future that we'll see

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tomorrow. If we're not making sure that that's fair, and I'm

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biased. At this point, it will come the biases that exist today

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will just continue to kind of be proliferated through the ages,

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particularly with the advancement of AI, they will be

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magnified. So it's imperative that we we do start to just

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think a little bit outside of our networks, and outside of the

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box on this

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to curiosity to facilitating other people's dreams. I read

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that the job description of investors and we need to really

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accelerate that pace. Otherwise, we're going to be totally

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overwhelmed by the kind of technology that can be also

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misused. In that sense. It strikes me that in all the work

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you do, and and we've we go back a long time. So I remember

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interviewing you for a research on women in social

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entrepreneurship. Back then, I was a European research. It

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strikes me that that the values that that are coming up in you

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your work, they are transparency, fairness,

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convening, dreaming, activating, facilitating, and I wonder which

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one has got most muscle? And how does it help you show up?

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I think that convening and agitating, I would say are the

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things that I do best, it's kind of pulling people together

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around something that needs to be changed and lighting a fire

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that that can continue to burn long beyond myself is the hope

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for lots of the work that I do

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was beautiful. And do you call a third piece of work we the LSE

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and MasterCard called the transparent framework, which

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aims to create real and systemic change for black professional

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women in finance, big tech. Then professional services. Also

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there were some agitation and convening as well going on

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there. And so for our audience to transparent framework

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transparent is in the acronym for team culture, role models,

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advocacy networks, systemic change, pay authenticity, real

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identity experience, networks, again, but the external network

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as opposed to internal, and training. And it strikes me that

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there's a interconnectedness of all these elements that

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contribute to creating a better working environment for for

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everyone here. And I wonder what is what is your call to action

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here.

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So rising tides, raise all boats. And if you make an

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environment that's conducive for a black woman to work in, we've

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proven with the precursor to that research that black women

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are the least likely to be in the top 1% of earners, and the

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least likely to thrive in corporate environments. And

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that's not through a deficiency on their part, it's through

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toxic environments for the most part. And so if you're able to

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create environments in which black women are able to thrive,

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then everybody else is able to do better as well. And I guess,

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from my own perspective, I haven't worked in corporate

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environments for many years. But I do believe that black women

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needs to start to earn as much as their white peers, they need

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to start to, to build intergenerational wealth for

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future generations, and they need to be able to have

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expendable income that they can invest in the technology that I

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was talking about that is going to shape the future. So if we

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create environment, corporate environments that are enabling

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black women to thrive and reach the pinnacle of their careers,

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we will we will therefore create income into communities that are

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historically underfunded, and we can start to create some

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mechanisms and ecosystems for funding startups ourselves.

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Of course button makes total sense. And I wonder we can, what

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more did you learn by doing this, this piece of work that

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you didn't expect?

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I learned an incredible amount about the resilience of black

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women, the the number of women I did a listening tour with four

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women and a number of women that kind of, you know, explained

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that they needed to move out of their organization's

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consistently in order to move up in their careers, that, you

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know, tales of harassment, sexual harassment, out and out

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racism, micro aggressions, you know, the, the, the experience,

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the collective experience of black women in UK corporations

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is, is one that is not easy. And I think that again, if I'm able

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to start to create conversations that ensure that when women are

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being considered black women are also being considered, that, for

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me is a fire that will burn long, long after I've left this

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earthly plane, and will ensure that we create a stronger future

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for those that come after me. And that's, that's really a key

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thing. The most important thing that I learned, though, through

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that research surveying was that actually, when black women had

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been had been able to thrive within organizations, there was

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usually an empathetic, white male ally, and sometimes a white

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female ally, that had provided some advocacy and sponsorship

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for that black female to be able to kind of get to, to where she

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had gotten. Somebody took it and took her under their wing, or

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made her success, their business. And I think that

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that's one of the most important lessons for the community that's

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going to be listening to this podcast, befriending

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understanding getting to know and using your privilege, no

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matter how small that privilege may be, to ensure that you

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extend sponsorship and advocacy to someone who has less

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privileged than you is the the most important thing that you

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could do for 2023, in my opinion,

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wow. That's interesting, because I connect that back to what you

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said earlier, where you were adamant that people need that

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curiosity, but they need to facilitate as well things to

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happen. So that brings us back to back to the your initial

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comments. So we've got to game for you. It's a future thinking

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game. So imagine we are in 2033, you know, few years ahead of us.

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And I wonder you speak from the present 2033. What has happened

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recently that keeps making the headline? View? Do you think?

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Okay, so in in my ideal world, what's recently happened is that

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there's a thriving ecosystem of venture capital and unicorns in

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the UK, we've gone from the the number of unicorns that we have

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now, I think it's around about 150 to 700 unicorns over the

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last 10 years. And the number of unicorns that exist now that are

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led by Black Company, black founders, is equal to their,

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their proportion in society.

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Wow. And knowing that this is happening, we're still in 2033.

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Would you think is there a behavior that had made this

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possible for people in the sector?

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So the we stopped offering mentoring programs and skills

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development programs, and started to ensure that

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entrepreneurs had the capital, the connections, and the

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contracts that they needed to get their early stage businesses

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off the ground, and those businesses grew. And they exited

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for a billion dollar valuations. And then there was an ecosystem

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that had been created, which meant that those who had exited,

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reinvested back into the new entrepreneurs and, and then we

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created the flywheel that ensured that actually, the

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access problem, the pipeline problem that doesn't even exist

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at the moment, just just completely frittered away. There

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were new divers on entrepreneurs coming through all the time,

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because they saw role models that they were able to look up

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to, they realized that entrepreneurship was for them.

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They felt as though they belonged in that sector. And

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they were then funded, they went themselves into corporations who

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also accepted the sale at the end of the day, and bought from

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them. So supply chains became more diverse over the years. And

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you know, now that we're in 2020 2033, we see that

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businesses are buying from entrepreneurs that come from all

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walks of life, not just the historic ones.

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Oh, wonderful. So that's the future we should all aspire to.

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To reach to connect to reconnect with. So thank you so much for

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sharing these stories of connectedness facilitation ally

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ship and, and just care for everyone. Thank you, Erica. It

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was a pleasure talking with you.

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An absolute pleasure to speak with you too. Thanks again for

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having me.

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Thank you. So I look forward to welcoming you back to the house

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of trust again next time to get the next episode. Subscribe to

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our show anywhere you can find your podcast and be and think in

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the house of trust for more insights and opportunities to

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think independently for yourself or your team. Head to my

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websites have been was not good at you can sign up for my

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regular conscious innovation updates. And this is all for

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people who love to invest in social change and ignite a

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positive impact. So I look forward to connecting with you

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soon.

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