If you’ve ever wondered why Australian homes feel freezing in winter and brutal in summer, this episode makes it painfully clear. “Suppliers in Australia are still delivering single-glazed aluminium windows,” and that one sentence explains a lot about comfort, energy bills, condensation, and why so many people feel worn down inside their own homes.

We sit down with Monika Rogers from Eco Sky Windows to talk high performance windows, Passive House certified systems, and what “thermally broken” actually means. We discuss U-values, why the whole window unit matters (not just the glass), and how slimline design, hardware, and airtightness change real-world performance.

The conversation also goes beyond windows into indoor air quality and ventilation. Monika shares why she rates HRVs so highly, and the hosts describe what it felt like having 30 to 40 people in a sealed space that still felt fresh, clear, and comfortable. If you care about building better homes, this is a practical look at the details that actually move the needle.

We finish up with the realities builders and clients need to plan for: shop drawings, lead times, shipping, and cashflow. If you’ve been nervous about imported high performance windows, this episode breaks down the process and shows why organisation matters more than geography.

CHAPTER MARKERS

00:00 Intro

00:36 Meet Monika and Eco Sky Windows

01:01 Thermally broken vs “thermally improved”

03:00 U-values, triple glazing, and performance comparisons

03:33 How window performance is calculated (whole unit vs glass only)

09:00 “Passive culture shock” and why Australian homes feel so cold

13:11 SIP studio build in six weeks and what that means

20:00 Architects, glass-to-wall ratios, shading, and orientation

24:49 Low-E coatings, argon gaps, and glazing science

26:25 Slimline frames, concealed hinges, and hardware choices

29:11 HRVs, fresh air, and comfort in real buildings

33:16 Ordering process, drainage details, and shop drawings

34:01 Lead times, shipping, and getting windows on site

36:42 Cashflow, progress claims, and paying before arrival

38:12 Where high performance is growing in Australia

41:52 Mindful Moment: apprenticeships are a licence to learn

43:19 How to contact Eco Sky Windows

Our Sponsors:

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Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

Proclima Sponsor

Hamish is gonna introduce today's

guest.

Okay.

Uh, so we are still, uh, in South Australia, and we have come over

here for, uh, a Pro Climer event.

Yep.

So we flew over here yesterday and caught up with Jess from ClimaSure

and Jack from Enduro Builders, and we had a little event here last night.

Um-

So we're

at

the mobile Pro Clima studios.

We are at the mobile Pro Clima studios.

So today, uh, continuing on our building fabric conversation, uh,

we have Monika from EcoSky Windows.

Uh, Monika, thank you for coming on.

Thanks for having me.

So Monika, I have launched EcoSky Windows around four years ago, and

we supply high performance, mostly triple-glazed windows, basically ac-

across the country and New Zealand.

And we focus on timber Aluflad windows, and we also fabricate, uh, Reynaers

aluminum high performance windows.

Completely thermally broken too, though- Yeah, thermally

broken … because, 'cause there is a lot of people out there claiming,

"Oh, our thermally broken aluminum windows," when really they're not.

They're thermally improved, and they're still shit.

Oh, no.

This is- If

they're made in Australia, they're shit.

Yeah.

No, this is, uh, high-end, a- act- actual Passive House certified windows.

But

they're, but they're international windows.

They, they're, they come

from- We have… No, we have… Yeah, we, we have, they come

from Belgium, their profiles.

Yeah.

But we actually have a Reynaers, uh, Andrew, who brought Reynaers about

10 or 15 years ago in, in Victoria.

Oh, so he- Okay … puts them together in Victoria?

Yeah.

Okay.

But- And, but we fa- So he's got lots of fabricators that he works with.

Yeah.

But we fabricate them.

We obviously have plenty, plus he has experience of fabricating them,

triple glaze in, in Lithuania.

Yep.

Are you using the glass from, say, AGG or Viridien?

Is that what you do?

Do you use Australian glass- No, we use- … or you actually impr- import the

glass?

We, we, we fabricate the whole struct- the whole product.

So, so they're coming, they're coming on a, on a, on a ship,

rocking up the site, bang, they can

go.

So, so that- Bang … that's the aluminum

Wait, aluminium?

Or both

What do you mean?

So, 'cause you do… You said you do aluminum windows

and alu-clad- And alu-clad

Alu-clad windows, yes, yeah

And both of them come from a, in, obviously-

From a, from Lithuania,

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's… So yeah, so what I'm saying is, 'cause going back to

Hamish's comment about thermally broken windows, in Australia there's no…

Is there an… There's no thermally efficient aluminum

window on the market in Australia?

I- From my understanding, there's a few people that claim they do,

but- Mm-hmm … again, my… I'm, I'm not gonna name any names.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't think that there is a true thermally broken

aluminum window here in Australia.

Yeah.

That,

that's what I was trying to get at- Oh, yeah.

No, no … there, to say that, like, the window, you actually, it's not a… You're

not comparing apples with apples here.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like, and like our core product is timber alu-clad product.

Like, that's our core product, that's what we're really proud, that's

our IP behind it, and especially the slim line, slim line range.

But, uh, obviously we have architects who want a slim profile, and we re- the client

really wants a aluminum look, so we have a slim thermally broken aluminum product,

and it's a passive house certified.

What,

what U-value are we getting down to on them?

You'll be really surprised, for a slim line, a thermally broken's, like, 1.1.

Wow.

Wow, okay.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Uh- For tri- for triple glazed.

Okay, cool.

So, and then compared to, say, a alu-clad, around that 0.8?

It, again-

Depending what

casement- Depends what- Yeah … what it is.

And like, you know, the, the way we ac- the way we calculate

here the U-values, we're taking the standard window size, right?

Compare what, how we calculate in Europe.

But yeah, it's around… The sliding door is one as well, so

it's very similar, basically.

And, and just for reference, the way that you calculate a window-

Yeah

… and your thinking and calculation, correct me if I'm wrong here, that you would take

the frame, each vertical, horizontal, add it up with the glass as one unit-

Correct

as, and then an installed unit.

Where the typical window that would, say, with thermally broken U-value

in Australia look at just the-

Glass

… glass.

Uh, n- I… Actually, I work with Silok engineers here, and the way,

the way we calculate it is… But for example, if we have a U-value of a big

fixed window- Yeah … we can get even U-value 0.6 with European value, right?

Yeah.

'Cause it's more glass, and the frame is usually one, and the glass is 0.5.

Yeah.

But here, the same window can be s- one, because we're only allowed

to calculate it from a standard size, which is maybe 1.2 by 1.2.

So it's the same window, but it's the-

Yeah.

It's- … the, the worse value.

Yeah.

So, uh, the way that we calculate- Mm-hmm

here in Australia is pretty- Average

I think

by way-

Average … by, by way of contrast,

like-

That's what I'm, yeah, that's what I'm getting at

… and, and again, I, I hope no-

Not accurate, actually, as well.

Yeah, that's, so that's, so what I'm trying to paint a picture here for

people and try just to give a bit of an understanding of where I'm going with

this, is that the windows, the, the way that they over in Europe, um, or even,

even the out- the, the way that, say, a lot of the aluplast or the actually

uPVC in Australia will calculate it as a whole window, not based off a average-

Calculations

yeah, yeah.

So there's a lot more detail that goes into involve when we talk

passive house specifically on, on how that window is detailed.

I was just gonna say, by way of contrast, like I know of some

aluminum window suppliers here that are getting about 3.5 U-value, which

is nowhere near as good as 1.5.

Well, is that 300 times worse?

Mm. Is that, is that… Yeah, is that right?

Roughly?

I don't,

actually, I don't, I don't, I don't wanna

comment on- 'Cause, no, but if we compare that to, uh, to a U-value of

one and then 3.5, that's, that rough

maths.

Yeah.

So we're just saying that these, these aluminum windows that you're

talking about are incredibly efficient.

Um, what were you doing before, um, you started EcoSky?

I was a mum.

You're a mum, okay.

A

mum.

So is EcoSky

your first job, or no?

And also, and you're, and you're- No.

No,

yeah, that's it.

So- And you're, and you're also a recent mum as well.

A recent mum as well.

I

have a 10- How many kids?

How many kids?

Two kids.

Two kids.

Uh- Eight years old and 10 months

old.

But, and you came over here about 15 years ago?

20, actually, now.

20.

Yes.

It's

been a while.

What brought you

over here?

Do you know, do you know where she's from originally?

No.

I

was gonna say, where do you want to guess the accent is?

This is

fun.

Uh, Eastern, Eastern European.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm gonna say- I was about to say Czechoslovakia, but

I don't actually know I say Lithuania

Lithuania, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Only 'cause I'm guessing the windows . I'm cheating here

that the windows are Lithuanian.

Okay.

Yeah.

Uh, uh, you know, I was gonna say that, but I almost thought that was too easy.

Yeah, that d- well, I was like maybe Polish, but

yeah, no.

So what, what brought you over here in the first place?

Uni.

Yeah.

I had an opportunity, like grew up quite, quite lucky to have a fortunate

family, but I had an opportunity to come and study in Australia.

Yeah.

And as you know, as international students, uh, high fees

even like fif- 20 years ago.

Yep.

And then- What did

you study?

Uh, business manage- no, leisure management.

Leisure

. What's that?

Business and travel together.

I'd say that sounds like

an arts degree.

But I, I'd

actually, I-

It sounds like the same fluff It sound- sounds like the same degree I did.

I did business marketing and tourism.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Similar, similar things.

But I actually- A couple of diplomas, like attached on top of it.

Yeah

… but I actually didn't finish all of it because my fees were astronomical and

obviously my parents been in business and, uh, I, I always associate with business.

You know, whe- when your network is a business-

Yeah

business people, so I've- I know how much we paid for my studies.

I'm like, "Wow, I actually can learn more from the real people-

Yeah

… in real world." And I- What,

what business did your family own?

Oh, lots of different, like logistics, marketing, lots of

quite a few different businesses.

Yeah,

okay, cool.

Not windows?

No, not windows.

So how- I wish we would have windows.

So

what made you go, "I wanna start a window company"?

I actually always liked, so-

You always liked windows?

I always liked windows and like, uh, my dad was as well, like, uh,

he was kind of a home builder.

I'm not sure, he wasn't a pro- he never had a building business, but

he built like our three-story home.

Like he- Spec,

spec-ies,

yeah.

Uh, yeah … and our lake houses and things like that, so he

was, and I- Sounds like you

had a very privileged upbringing.

And I- By

lake house- … and house in the

hills.

Quadra bike and a lake house.

Yeah.

The lake house.

And, um, back then he always used to speak, uh, about, uh,

like the right ventilation in the air, uh, in, in the house.

So he, it, mechanic- I don't think maybe if mechanical ventilation even existed,

so he built additional chimney in the house, just a chimney from the bottom.

It was three, three story home.

So he, and he just, it was leaky, so he added holes in the chimney.

Yeah.

So we have always fresh air co-

like- So you're creating like a stack effect.

Correct.

Yep.

Correct.

And, but the walls were so thick, and obviously we had, uh, double

glazed windows, timber, and again, timber double glazed windows,

like I'm talking 30 years ago.

Yeah And he always was speaking about window shop people, because obviously you,

we have UPVC windows and timber windows in Europe, like lots of manufacturers.

Yeah.

But I, I always remember how he used to speak about timber window

shop cl- to like his friends.

And it's just that, it just stuck in my mind, like timber windows.

Mm. So, so coming from, uh, Lithuania, you've obviously got quite a

swing in temperature- Absolutely … from, from summer to winter.

Yeah.

Just by way of like surviving, you had to have pretty well-insulated

and comfortable homes.

What was it like coming to Australia?

Oh, shocking.

No.

You can say shit if you want.

It can freak us

well.

No, so basically in, like just to give a perspective, so if you have

like minus 20 in Europe, it is, you walk inside the house, and our house

was so well m- like built, we have singlet, T-shirt like in- inside.

Like it's just so comfortable.

And- Like most Europeans have a perception of Australia is always warm.

Yes.

Like we don't, we- it's never been communicated on, like, on

media that it gets cold here.

And if you live in a house that is not right built, it gets really uncomfortable.

And I think that feeling when you wake up in the morning, 6:00 o'clock

in the morning, and it's cold and you go to the cold bathroom, and

you don't wanna get out of bed.

That feeling-

I don't have that feeling, Hamish

. I don't have that feeling either.

Do you live, do you live in a passive house, Matt?

We're gonna stop making- We make that joke almost every episode.

We're

gonna

stop

using that joke.

It's, uh-

And it's just, it's that, that uncomfortable, that-

Yes … passive culture shock.

Yeah.

Mm. Yeah, look, I, I, I experience that in the home that we currently live

in, and obviously have big plans to upgrade that over the next few years.

But yeah, during winter it's-

It's the mental wellbeing of over time, it exhausts you.

Yeah.

Like, as you go on through winter, you just don't wanna go out of that

bedroom that's got the heater on- Yeah

watch TV in bed, because it's honestly, it sucks.

I love where we live.

It is the most incredible property.

But, uh, in the depths of winter it is depressing because it's just so cold.

We live right near a river.

All the, the cool air just settles in the valley.

Yeah.

And it's usually about three or four degrees w- colder where we are- Mm

than at the end of our street.

So on a… If it's, like, eight degrees somewhere else, it's five degrees

where we are.

So it gets- I'm about to obviously go through the first winter.

I'm kind of excited.

Well, I, I'm not as scared this time.

Yeah.

I'm so excited for you, Matt.

I'm like, I- Yeah, it's

a- I'm so excited how

we're gonna- No, no, but it's, it's, it's a, it's a weird concept that,

like, usually I'm thinking about, "Well, I've gotta go to Brisbane

or Queensland to something and get away for some nice warmer weather."

Yep.

You know that it's going to be wet and rainy, and you're like, "Oh, this is gonna

suck." But, like, mentally I'm already in the mindset of like, "Oh, it's cool." And

you- But like I was just… Sorry, Matt, just talking about

the Queen- like Queensland.

I just spoke with my husband another day that I wonder how many people

would mo- move to N- like Queensland-

Yep

if it would have good quality homes.

'Cause like, for example, we live with… In not certified passive house, but we

live in a SIP house, like triple glazed windows, in a valley like you, in a hill.

Yeah.

So it gets really cold, like three degrees outside, and constant

20 deg- 20 degrees inside.

So it's, it's amazing.

It's just pleasure.

Yeah.

And you actually enjoy that, to be in the hills.

It's like beautiful colors and, you know-

Yeah … trees are changing.

The hills, and I, I, I was telling you- It's actually

beautiful.

I've never been here

… I was, I was telling you today as we're driving out of Hahndorf, I'm

like, "It's a shame we can't go for a drive up through Aldgate and

Bridgewater and stuff like that."

It is absolutely spectacular up through there.

I'll give you the tour on the way to the airport.

Yeah.

Next time.

On the way to the airport.

Um, so but i- i- it, yeah, it's a- You can't… But we're

back to, well, what are we now?

We're in, it's April.

We're about to hit those- So it's gonna get worse … that winter

months where social media fills up with all these Europeans complaining

how cold Australian houses are, and then every media outlet has their,

their article on how bad our homes are built, and then we all forget about it.

But I think what we've gotta remember is in Victoria specifically,

in Adelaide, you're a little bit warmer of a climate zone.

It's y- you're heating 60, 70% of the

year.

What climate zone are you?

Six, uh, five.

Five or six.

Five.

Five.

I

think.

Oh, but I think the hil- the hills might be different again.

Yeah, I did ask someone

last night- 'Cause it's very different

and, uh-

Could you be at six in the hills maybe?

It

might be.

Just, just would know from climate Yeah.

' Cause it is quite mild as you head down

towards- It's very, like, like, like what you said about living in a valley.

So we live in a, in the hills and in a valley.

It's three, four degrees different when down a hill.

Yeah.

Is that 'cause the cold sinks?

And we have a dam on our property.

I don't know, it's just…

Maybe.

Yeah.

I mean, it probably doesn't get as much solar gain as well

'cause you're in a valley.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you, you recently moved into your home.

Yes.

And- To say actually a year ago, July last year.

And you-

Just after you had the baby.

Yeah, two weeks.

Yeah.

Were you, were you aiming to get in before?

'Cause it's actually funny coincidence.

Yeah, I was, I was aiming for the baby to be with you, but came on time.

So, so we had a, the very interesting conversation about your home

just before we jumped on, and you said from slab to moving in-

Yep

was six weeks.

Six weeks.

What?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Six weeks.

Wild.

So-

So it was, uh, properly, they were approved in four days

Right.

So SIPs up, building wrap in, windows would have- Windows installed … windows

would've been on site already.

Everything, everything shipping,

everything Everyth- everything.

Did you import everything from the membranes to…

Did you… Is that what you did?

Did you have the membranes attached to your SIPs?

No, no.

So but it's a, sorry, it's a 67 square meter, uh, studio.

Yeah.

Like a two-bedroom-

Yeah

… place.

Mm. And

there's four, and there's four- Oh, okay.

So I, I, so it's a, so it's a studio.

What was-

It's a studio- Okay … but it's gonna be in the future a studio and living.

That gives me more context.

Yeah,

yeah.

Is there, is

there four of you in there now?

It

is four.

Wow.

But it's really s- we have a three-point jumeir ceilings.

It's, um- Cool … lots of, lots of glass.

I know- Lots of glass

… and the houses that you live in Europe are a lot smaller in size than

what we're used to living in here.

It is c- possibly now, but, like, we had this, uh, like, especially,

like, in Lithuania, we had, once we became independent c- independent

country from Soviet Union, i- in, let's say mid-'90s, where people

used to build very big houses.

Like, I mean, never used to finish them.

Like, I'm talking three, four story home.

Like, even the house I grew up was a three story house.

But I think when people realize how much funds you need to complete a

house, and we started downsizing.

Yeah.

So the new house are getting smaller, but if you… It's still, like, if

you drive from the older suburbs, you will see some really bigger

concrete homes, like, bigger sizes.

Mm.

Um, how old are your kids?

So 10-month-old and-

Eight … eight.

Years

old.

Oh, okay.

So, okay, yeah.

Having, having a nine-year-old, I'm just trying to work out the dynamic of

living in a, in a smaller footprint home.

Could, could be fun.

So you, so you… What'd you say?

You got a 10-month and a nine-year-old?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ei- eight-year-old.

Eight-year-old.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah.

Um, and the, and, and plans to expand on the house?

Oh, no, we, we're building a new house as well.

Oh, building… Okay, so you're, you're… This is where you're moving in now.

You're moving into this while-

I'm sorry, while- Yeah, cool … we're building a bigger house, yeah.

Yeah, cool.

Uh- Is this

one gonna take a bit longer?

It's… What?

To build.

Like, is it gonna

take- I'm sure.

Yeah, it's gonna be longer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Uh, you know anyone that can provide good windows for the house?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Okay.

Ecosky.com.au.

So the- Yeah, let

me,

let me… I've, I've got a few people I could probably recommend if you want.

Yeah.

So how did, how did you fall into windows?

Like, where was- Yeah … the first conversation or thought

of like, "I wanna do windows"?

Because you, 'cause university, and then there was a bit of time between then.

And then you've had kids, you know, eight, eight-year-old then.

But four years ago, you started Ecosky.

Mm.

What, what was that motivation to- Get into windows

So, you know, you can't just start a window company like, "Okay, tomorrow

I start a window company," right?

It's like it's not-

Well, I think, I think this is how, uh- A lot of people think- … naive

entrepreneurs start businesses though.

Oh, you

can't- Because they're like, "Oh, that's easy," so then you just do it.

No, windows is obviously s- such a technical component of a house.

Yeah.

So it's, uh, it's… For me, it's like I always kind of have this

engineering mi- mind behind me.

Like, my husband is engineering.

We're very technical people, so if it's such a technical aspect of… It's not

like, I wouldn't say, like, compare to flooring, but, or paint, you know?

Paint is tech- everything is technical, right?

But yeah, windows is like drainage.

It's like it's such a, such a technical aspect, so it took a…

I had a dream to start a window company possibly at 10 years.

Yeah.

So I was working on it, but officially launched, like opened a company

is only four years ago, right?

Yeah.

So obviously you need to do Australian testing sta- s- standard testing.

You need, you needed quite a bit of capital to start-

Yeah … a window business.

And then I, so I always had a dream- To, 'cause we living in Adelaide,

I didn't wanna have a showroom and just focus on Adelaide market.

So I had a dr- so I retrofitted my own house, and just obviously, and

to see how things, how the architects will like the, the windows first.

Yep.

Just tested the market and then, yeah, working across the country.

So

I think I remember one of the first times you and I jumped on a

Zoom call together, you showed me-

Well,

the- 'Cause you had a s- you had a sandstone house or something,

like a, a brick, double brick home.

Yeah, a

double brick home.

And I think you

showed me that you'd retrofitted all the windows- Yeah … in

that double brick home house.

And like how I retrofit it as well.

Like I, uh, it's actually, the front of the house was all timber windows.

Yep.

And the, the northern si- side of the house was the backside of

the house was aluclad windows.

So I wanted to so basically i- in the same house, I have two

different windows for people to see.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I think… Do you know what?

I reckon most people wouldn't even notice that.

No, no.

No, nobody notice.

No.

So did you, when you started EcoSky, have you actually had any

previous window experience before?

Had you worked- No … for a window company?

No.

No.

I think it does help though, the fact that you're from Lithuania, you've, your

dad's in, or parents are in logistics.

Yeah.

Like, you start putting these kind of pieces together, it's not much of a

stretch to then start to import from- No … whatever it is, whether it's-

Oh, but before even I started, I, I went…

You know, we… Like even in Lithuania, we have quite a few

really good window manufacturers.

So I needed to choose the right partner I wanna work with.

And like, my own attitude is like, if it's a problem, like,

it's always a solution to.

So that's my whole, that's my motto in life.

It's always a solution to everything.

And what I like a- about our partners, we're like the biggest company in our

country, but it's a second generation running a company now, that's how

long we've been in business, and they, like everything is possible.

Like any architect's brief, we can manufacture.

And, and- Oh,

so this is a good architect's brief.

Do you wanna go?

Yeah, actually, that's interesting.

Sorry, sorry to cut back to you in a second, 'cause I saw that, uh, Dean

Backman had, had put in a quite a sort of colonial style timber window-

Mm … in one of his projects in Macedon.

Yeah.

That, that was one of yours, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, quite detailed, quite different to the other windows that- Yeah

um, that you see everywhere else.

Th- this, uh, partner that you've, this factory you partner with, I'm

assuming that they make and manufacture windows for other partners as well.

It's not just EcoSky windows that-

Yeah, so in Australia it's just for us.

Yeah.

Yes.

We have a- Yeah, that,

yeah … agreement obviously.

Yeah, cool.

But we export windows, yeah, to Japan, like to all over the-

Yeah … the

world, basically.

Yeah.

It's,

we a really big company.

Yeah.

20,000 square foot.

That's- Yeah … that's a solid manufacturing.

So jumping back to your architect comment that you mu- just ma- sort

of made and alluded to, in your form, you said every architect is demanding-

uh, with all the glass that they want.

Yeah.

Do you

want to talk more about that?

'Cause I think it's a really good conversation to have.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I understand th- just for context, but I understand as an architect, you

guys wanna maximize a view or, um, what glass brings inside to outside, so.

Mm-hmm.

But it also comes as a… There's a, there's a kickback when you

have so much glass, especially on the wrong orientation.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Do you wanna maybe talk about that?

So what would you like me to tell about that?

Everything.

Uh,

my house is gonna be 70% to wall ratio of glass as well, so it's about… I'm

working with some, obviously, building physics to make sure we get, you

know, the right shading and orientate.

Who'd you work with?

The… I got Alex Slater- Alex

Slater.

Yeah, okay

… involved- Yeah … to help out.

He said he never worked in a house with 70% glass to wall ratio.

Just…

So actually, you're 70% glass across the whole house?

Yeah.

Wow.

To wall ratio.

What, what, what's your, what's your main, like, major source,

like, major orientation?

North

So have you got a lot of external shading?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are, are overhangs or manual or automatic shading?

Yeah, actually have, uh, ma- it's gonna be manual blinds,

aluminum blinds with, uh- The

louvres

… oh, it's louvres,

yeah.

Do, do… Part of your window, do you import the blinds as well so

they can be custom to each window?

We can.

We can do all that.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

So

we can work- Is it- … on every- Yeah … project is, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But talking about the glass, so everything… Like, so yeah, architects

demanding all the glass, and what we… And we want, like, timber

profiles, but what you find out, we speaking with so many different

architects, we want a slim profile.

Yeah.

They want a slim.

Well, yeah.

We don't want- Do you- We don't want any chunkiness.

We

want- What timber did you go internally for your own house?

Oak.

Oak.

Fancy.

Do you

know what's really interesting about your, uh, approach to

these high-performance windows?

So, and, and I won't name any other names, but I think about some of

the other players in the- Mm-hmm

in the space who are, who are delivering similar windows.

Mm-hmm.

The, you know, they're, they're basically performance first.

They're, they're saying, "We wanna build passive houses." Mm. Whereas

you're like, "Hey, you know what?

We wanna try and get our windows in, these beautiful architectural windows-

Mm … and push the boundaries."

Mm.

And I think you even talked about before, whether it was off camera

or in your form, that you're not necessarily targeting the passive house-

Mm

… homes.

Mm-hmm.

' Cause I, I would argue that your home's probably not gonna hit passive

house standard with that amount of-

Actually, it can probably.

Yes,

it probably would.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, all right.

Yeah, it- You've got

shading.

There'll be no

heat in the night.

But like-

Yeah,

but like- Yeah, okay, interesting … even, like, 'cause

our performance is, is by default.

We have, like, so the, the, the factory's in Lithuania, and our national

construction code, every single house has to get a low order test and has

to get point, .6 air changes per hour.

Wow.

Every single house by default.

So that's in your code?

In, like, our code.

Wow.

So our performance of the windows is, is just… We don't even speak

about it, 'cause it's by default.

We can't even get each state to agree on the code.

Mm.

Well,

yeah, I mean, we can't even get really good thermally broken

alum- aluminum windows here.

Mm. You know?

Like- And

like, and

I also- And some, and some of these suppliers are still delivering

single-glazed aluminum window.

That… My, I, I can't get my head around that.

Yeah.

How is that even fit for purpose?

I don't understand.

Just,

just even from a thermal perspective, just for comfort.

Well, that's what I'm saying.

It's fit for- It's the feel of-

It's not… Yeah

… yeah.

The, the, the, just sound.

Could, could you imagine right now, Matt, sitting where you are

in the morning, 'cause that's east.

Oh.

So right behind you is east, and imagine if that was a single-glazed aluminum

window, uh, sliding door, you know, not as airtight as what it was, how

hot it would've been in this room.

I don't want any

It would've been cranking But

you actually just said something, you said airtight, and I think that's

really important as well with windows is a window can have 15 panes of glass,

but if it's not airtight, who cares?

Mm. I think that's a really important functionality of- True

Mm

… the windows, especially you guys provide that they also airtight.

Mm-hmm.

And obviously then if you're airtight, you're watertight.

Um, and that's a big problem we have in Australia.

Windows are considered to be, oh, they're double, they're

double glazed, how cool is this?

But it's like, well, how airtight are they?

Oh, are they not?

Which means then water has the ability also to get in.

Mm. But even with, like, double glazing, if you just look at the glass itself,

like, glazing is not the same, like-

Yeah

… like, we have science about how much argon you have to have in between each

glass to perform, and if you have, like, 6 mil argon or 16 mil argon in

between, it's a different performance level, and we have science data

backed up by 20 years of experience.

There's double glazing and then there's double glazing.

Yeah.

Not all double glazings are same.

There are some… There's some double glazing units from my understanding that

will outperform a triple glazed unit

I, I sorry, I don't know.

I can't comment on

that.

Yeah.

No, no, but like, if you

had- Our, our triple glazing is so, like-

No, no, but if you had the wrong, uh, as you got- Oh, okay.

Got it … so, so if you, if you had- I get it.

I get it … just having three- It's too much in there … layers of

glass also doesn't solve the problem.

No, it has to … It's a science, like- Yeah … so our, even our t- we get some

inquiries, inquiries from architects or owner builders, or d- "Can I please

have a low-E on this type of windows?"

Yeah.

"On this glass." I said, "Our low-E is, our minimum standard is by default.

We don't even supply without a low-E.

And on triple glazing, we have low-E internal and e- on external panes."

And I was gonna

ask- It's the minimum standard … I

was

gonna ask- So if you got them on like glass f- like layer five and layer two.

Layer.

Uh, like…

So one, two-

Three, four … three,

four, five … five.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Inside and inside.

Yeah.

Yeah.

D- I, I'm a bit, bit ignorant to this.

I know Cam probably knows the answer, but w- i- if … And correct me if I'm

wrong, on different elevations and maybe different climates, like having the low-E

in a different pane i- impacts the, um-

Yeah

impacts the performance?

But that's what you're saying.

It's science.

It's not-

Yeah.

No, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

But you're saying-

That's more solar heat would be, but

low-E.

But yeah, but yeah, but you're, you're, you're saying that you have a low-E,

uh, on… Say if we're going from out- inside to outside, so you've got

the inside panel that you can touch.

Then the other side of that is where the low-E is.

Yep.

Then you got a panel of glass in between- Yep … with no low-E.

Yeah.

And then on the outside pane, on the inside of that

pane, there's another low-E.

Another,

yep.

Um, if we remove one of them, how does it impact the performance?

A good question.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

It might be, it might be, it might be not from a U- U-value performance.

It would be just more from a- Solar, solar heat gain … solar, because-

Heat

gain coefficient, yeah … the argon will be more U-value.

The gap in between those panes- Yeah … that's what actually plays a difference.

And all our glass usually has from 16 to 20 mil gaps of argon,

because that's when it's the best.

Okay, so they're quite, quite big.

Is that for your double glaze?

So your, your f- what are you, 424 as opposed-

Yeah, but if, like, so we have either 24 or 48 or 52 mil stash of glass.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

' Cause that's, that's when no one's gonna have the best performance for the clients.

Yep.

Mm.

Yeah.

Uh, the, the, the, the, so yes, so 60…

Is that, your biggest is 62, did you say?

52.

52. So think about a single glazed pane of glass is four to six mil.

For having- 52 mm, yeah.

Like as in, like that's a thickness of timber difference.

And does your, does your, uh, extr- extrusions change depending on the

panel of glass that's in there?

So, so the- these windows that we're looking at now, like if I'm just looking

at the- panel that's behind Matt now

72 excursions

So they're, yeah, probably, I don't know how, how wide they

are, but they're fitting a-

Ah, you mean, like, depends off the frame?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, so our frame is 78 mil thick- Yep … deep, deep.

So if we, it's the same frame if we wanna put double glazer, triple

glazer.

Glass- Is that, is that a slimli- is that slimline?

Is that sl- is that- No, 78 mil is a, is, is slim-

slimline as well, like s- deep Yeah And the slimline is, uh, so

for example, a standard tilt and turn thick with, tilt and turn,

'cause obviously its wide, is 128.

Yeah And a slimline is 88.

So c- talk to me on the slimline.

Is, uh, so is it the external parts are slim as well as the internal part,

like the, the oper- operable part?

Yes.

Because I think one thing people need to understand with Australian windows is they

typically say, "Oh, we want it slimline" but it's slimline only from the inside.

Outside it's a bit chunkier because it covers the glass, where in a passive

house or a high performance, the windows do by nat- they do look a bit thicker

because your inside op- the operative part is sort of hard up against the frame.

Does that make sense, what I'm getting at here?

Mm.

Uh, actually then would look the same, 'cause our slimline, for example, even

you see that I'm not sure how thick this interlocking depth between sliding doors.

This seems like maybe one, even over 100 mil thick.

Mm.

So for slimline, it's six, 54 mil thick.

But what I mean is say, see this m- uh, this is hard if you're not watching the

video, but see this window to over here?

Yeah.

If that was in a typical window, that operable part would be on the outside.

So the outside looks thicker but the inside looks thinner.

Uh, so with slimline we as well, we do like a concealed

hinges on all operable parts.

Okay.

Ev- everything looks much, every single part is slimmer.

And the concealed hinges are, I'm assuming, are based on the weight

of that, that tilt and turn.

So if you had a massive tilt and turn, you'd probably need a more heavy duty…

Uh, actually our, 'cause we only use, like, Siegenia brand hinges-

Yeah … and we, we can do tilt and turn up to three meters tall-

Yeah

… and 1.2 wide.

Wow.

Tilt and turn.

It's all m-

Yeah

… and even, like, from, uh, we're talking about the hinges, so and,

uh, we spoke- 'Cause hardware's

important

… the hardware's place, uh, top basically of all- Yeah

you know?

'Cause you're gonna be using the, you're gonna be living in the house and you

gonna be using the windows, right?

So-

Are you, though?

This is the funny part, 'cause- I, I reckon you don't use them as much as you

think you're going to in a comfortable

house I use the windows.

I love it.

I use it.

Even the sliding doors, in and out.

Okay, yeah.

So,

so, yeah, I, yeah, that's, that's correct Uh, so do- do- do- doors

are one thing, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah But your, your windows, your… How, how often are you using them?

Or, or- I use

them all the time

Yeah, okay.

Have you got a little HRV in this, um, studio?

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm just, uh- Yeah.

Centralized or decentralized?

Centralized.

Centralized.

A small one in a, that goes into… Actually Zenda, Paul's brand, um-

The Air F- the Air Fresh

200? That goes into… No, it's called Paul's Zenda.

It goes in the ceilings, like

a small one.

Yeah, we… Yeah, yeah, I know the one.

We've, we've, we've put one in, in our Alter- Uh, is it the Q200?

… Alter Eco project.

I

think the 120 or something.

Yeah.

Yeah, the Air… I think it's actually-

I love HRVs.

It's just, uh, it's, uh , it's a different, it's another podcast.

Oh.

Yes, definitely.

They've been like, we're in one now here, and It, it's so fresh.

Yeah.

And like the house is, nobody lives here, so it would be, you would

feel like it would be, otherwise would be like, you know, wouldn't

be fresh air, like, but yeah.

Yeah, walk- walking in here yesterday, yesterday morning, uh, and I kn- I don't

know when someone was in here before us, but walked in and it just didn't

smell because the HRV's on all the time.

Mm. It was really comfortable, and we had 30 or 40 people in here last

night, and it, it didn't feel cloudy.

Like the CO2 levels didn't, didn't feel like they've like, uh, escalated,

so people were still switched on.

Yeah.

S- people were still engaging.

People weren't yawning.

And I don't know if it's because we were having such engaging

conversations, but- Mm … maybe.

Uh, maybe that was the case,

but- But what, what I noticed with HRV at home, and I'm not sure

if it's actually 100% working.

It's just my own perception.

So we have obviously eight years old, and like last winter I had a really newborn,

like a couple months old, and, uh, the bigger one comes back from school, has

like, you know, some flu or something, and the little one didn't catch.

I just put a HRV on a top mode all the time, make sure

it's working- Oh, so you're

on

boost in the house … boost

the whole time, basically, while he is unwell, make sure it's, the

air is filtering, and the little one didn't get, didn't get sick.

Interesting.

I think there's a

few studies happening with this.

But, but again, I, I'm not sure, you know, like I'm not…

It's just, but

like, like the, for me it's- Yeah, but I'm

sure, I'm

sure- It's something to do

with it, I think

Do you think there's confirmation bias?

Yeah.

Oh, well, it's definitely anecdotal, but, but I'm sure you could

get 100 of those stories that, you know, that speaks to that.

I mean, you, you s- you said, you've told me that you're, you,

you're quite stuffy during the day.

You go home and it goes, it goes-

Oh, so I've been sick for, I've had like some form of a lung infection for,

since we went over into, to Tassie.

I caught it off the flight from Noah, and I got it, and I was, I pretty much wasn't

able to exercise for like eight weeks.

Like I was pretty crook.

But what was really fascinating is all week I was just

struggling from Monday to Friday.

I would then sit at home.

I s- I started working from home, and I thought I was better.

Mm. Then I went back outside a lot more and got sick.

I just got sick again.

And then it would get to a point where you'd hit Friday.

I'd work from home Friday, be there Saturday, you're there Sunday,

and you're like, "Oh, I think I'm actually better now finally."

Start Monday, go into my office, bang, trigger again.

Mm. Interesting.

So like I, so it, I act- it took me a few weeks to recognize this pattern, and

I was like, "Um, the house does work"

Mm.

And then oddly enough, Nicole or no one ever got it, quite, or as bad.

Oh, well there's another, there's another

anecdote.

And- So- N- Nicole messaged me yesterday as we got on the, the

plane, and she's like, "I think N- Noah's got a bit of a cold."

I haven't asked her today, but it would be interesting, another test case.

She

looked pretty bright this morning when I saw her- Yeah,

she was fine … on the phone.

Yeah, so yeah.

Um, how many, how many of the buildings that you're supplying

windows to are going for certification?

Do you know?

You've done one for Kyle, haven't you, Jan, Tassie?

Oh, we've done, we have- With Maxa, wasn't it?

We have, uh, multiple actually certification projects, but I

wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to tell you how many exactly.

Yeah.

Quite a few in Victoria, obviously Tassie.

Mm.

A New Delivery Australia award?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we-

And New Zealand … have a school in WA actually now that, that Passivhaus school.

For Brian?

Yeah, so it's Lynn House.

Oh, yep.

Yes,

yeah.

It's a Passiv- Steiner school that's gonna be- Yeah … Passivhaus certified.

And

is Brian building the school?

I think it's been built.

No,

Brian I think is gonna be installing my windows only.

Yeah, okay.

Oh, that was the one that was at the conference last year, yeah?

Correct.

Yeah.

Correct.

Yeah, okay.

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

That's

gonna be a really nice project.

It's all oak, all like s-

Yeah, beautiful

Beautiful

Um, what's the process of ordering windows through you for those who,

I guess, wanna get in touch, and, and then what's the lead time?

Like h- how does it all work?

So I would recommend you…

Obviously you- most, like, the normal process is we get involved really

early in a project with an architect, like a, a year or even 18 months

before the project even, you know- Yeah … the builder gets a contract.

So we get involved super early to get to work out all these

zero mil threshold, all the- Yeah

details, pocket sliding doors, and all that type of details.

And then when the builder gets a contract, uh, we order the shop drawings straight

away- Yeah … and that takes about probably 10 or two weeks to get back

and forward with a builder to make sure all works, you know, all the details

works, like especially the drainage.

That's the probably my main thing for me.

Yeah, yeah.

Drainage, drainage, drainage.

And then once we order, it takes about five months to get to site.

So you, you got 26 weeks, is that-

No, like from ordering, from ordering is, um, we manufacture in eight

weeks, and then like two and a half months on a boat, so 18 to 20 weeks.

Yeah.

But depends, that's from ordering, so depends how long- Yeah, that's

what I'm saying, yeah

… depends how long, how proactive.

We can make shop drawings really quickly in a couple days, but how proactive

is the builder going back and forward.

Yeah.

You know, it's all about, like, if a build- we make a shop drawing, so you

wanna get, the builder gets back to me in a month's time, it's four weeks gone.

Yeah.

So do you then say, like, d- do- is it delivery to every state, or

you deliver, say, to Melbourne or Sydney, then truck it down, or-

No, we deliver every state.

Yeah, so, so, so and then, and then you, uh, you gotta go through

fumigation, and then you will then… Do you deliver them- We

usually fumigate in Europe.

Yeah.

So it's much quicker here than- Okay … there's no hold ups here.

Okay, so then do you s- do you, when you get them to Australia- Mm-hmm … are

you delivering them on a truck, or are they in a shipping container?

Depends how, what's the access and depends- Yeah, yeah … what it is.

But, like, the way we pack them, the way we, each pallet, obviously it's

all customized pallet, depends on the size, but each pallet is covered

with plywood on, on top of it- Yeah

as well, so it's, like, super secure.

Yeah.

'Cause if we need to unpack the shipping container, if for logistic partners,

like, I care about the windows, right?

The builder cares about the windows, architect, the client, but

logistic people, they don't care.

Yeah.

Right?

And it's a lot of money sitting there.

It's a, a lot of hard work, so it's all covered so nobody can actually-

Yeah.

So what, what, what's um… Where I'm getting at here is people go, "Oh,

20 weeks to get windows on site."

Yeah.

What's Australia, maybe eight weeks?

That's

probably- Well, e- eight weeks, and then you think about when you're ordering them.

So,

so- So, I mean, it, it really just makes you be much… I know

when we've ordered, Siems- Mm

we've ordered windows that have longer lead times.

Yeah.

It's just about being organized.

So, but also, like, 26 weeks, yeah, if you, like, if you order

them properly at the right time, it shouldn't really hold you up

No.

You, you, you would, you would arguably be ordering them-

As you sign the contract or-

Pretty much Yeah

pretty much sign a contract, deposits get paid.

You, you got a month to get to site, and then usually three to four months.

Yeah.

But-

Slab in the ground, and then you're putting your frame up,

putting your building wrap on.

Mm. Now you're putting your roof on, and then windows are rocking up.

So- Yeah … you know, from a timeline point of view, it's, it doesn't matter.

Five months doesn't matter.

No.

That's, that's what I'm getting at.

Yeah.

'Cause I think the biggest, uh, fear for people is, oh, they come from Europe.

But oddly enough-

It's about being organized … but

oddly enough, ordering from Europe, things come on time.

Yeah.

But also, but one thing I will say about that is that you, you know, if you are

a builder and you, this is your first time buying anything from overseas- Mm

you need to understand that you need to pay for them in

full by the time they land.

They leave.

By, well- Yeah … by the, by the time they leave?

No, by the time they land, yeah.

By the time they land, that's what I'm saying.

By the time they land.

Yeah.

So you need to structure your progress claims to make sure that you've

got, you know, the deposit, the-

This is a-

manufacturing

deposit … the second payment … that's a great point, 'cause

banks, I- I've had it kick back on two projects re- re- recently.

Depending on the bank, I know Bank Australia are a lot better, but

window deposit, 'cause they're saying, "Oh, you're paying for

something before it's arrived."

Hmm.

So you've got to be a little bit sneaky in the way that you just,

like, you just write windows.

I would never say do a window deposit.

I'd just load up another claim.

Yeah, but that, that's other ways you could do it.

Yeah.

Just load up a claim.

So s- You, you can only obviously get 5% for your, um- Yeah,

but that's the issue.

You've gotta, you wanna be able to cashflow it, so you, if you-

Exactly … do your deposit or what are you gonna, what's, what would

you call it as something else?

Like-

Well, do a deposit then do site establishment.

You can even get a site es- Yeah, but then you- Then, then you

can do base … use the deposit

money to run it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

I just think it's about, um, just being mindful of the things

that you need to pay up front.

'Cause like your windows could be 150, $200,000, right?

And so it's a big-

Some of, some of them half a million dollars,

like- What's the biggest window- Yeah, there you go.

So it's, it's a-

Half a mil.

Yeah, there you go.

So it's a lot of money that you need to pay before windows arrive on site.

Yeah.

So you just need to be really mindful about, you know, when,

when you're, when you're paying for these things and when you're,

when you're actually getting money.

Hmm.

Um-

Who's your biggest market?

Like, what, is there a state that you do more work than any other state?

Mm I work Vic- Victoria and Tassie.

I work, I do quite a bit of in Tassie.

What about South Australia?

It's actually quite small market for

me.

Yeah, yeah.

But, you know, it's picking up.

It's definitely picking up- Yeah

and growing 100%.

Yeah.

But my- It's interesting 'cause, uh, um, James Turner said the same

thing this morning- Mm … when we were interviewing this morning.

He said it's, it is a smaller… Like, there's much more

energy around high-performance homes in Victoria and Tassie.

Mm.

Maybe it's climate, I don't know.

I

think it's just edu- catching up education.

Yes.

And-

Yeah

… uh, it's, climate, we definitely need the high-performance-

Yeah … home, yeah, 100%.

Well, the… but what's, what I see that's exciting, I was explaining

for you guys, and I was saying this to James this morning, is that you

have a, have a infinite market here.

100%. That it's only gonna get bigger.

But- So get in

now

the heritage is a mindset.

Yeah, okay.

It depends where you see the, you s- it depends what you see.

There's… I, I see hu- maybe I'll move, move back to South Australia.

And, like, we actually provided really long time ago, pro- one of

our first project is a beautiful private recording studio.

We've attached a couple bedrooms at the back.

It's, uh, for private use.

So, so it was our windows required, like, a special glass for obviously-

Acoustics

… for recording.

Yeah, acoustics.

And, um, it's a young builder, and I said to him, "Just push for the

certification," 'cause I, I seen what you haven't seen in a different state, and

that's what's gonna do for your business.

Yeah,

definitely.

And I said, "At least just pay from your own pocket, like as additional

or 10K or something, just…" 'Cause we have everything in there.

Yeah.

We have a good rafts, we have a HRV, good, like, everything.

Yeah.

Uh, it didn't get certified.

You mean- Yeah … like, he, he didn't pay for it?

Or that he'd actually-

No, the client didn't want.

Like, he's a great builder, and I work with him.

I keep working.

He's a… He lives just here in Belgrave, and he's this

great builder, young builder.

And but the client didn't care.

He just wanted a recording studio.

Yeah.

Uh, we, we were having the same conversation with James.

At, at some point along the way, we've all paid to play, right?

We've all bought our own first high- Mm … performance project.

Mm. So we've got a proof of concept.

Mm. And I think it's just, don't look at it as losing money,

just look at it as marketing.

Mm. Oh, but it's, it's not for, from, for us to judge, you know.

Everyone- Yeah, of course.

Yeah, yeah … situation is- Totally

different and…

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what's, um, what's, what's next for EcoSky?

Like, what, what, what are… You, you seem like you're

a pretty ambitious person.

Like, what's next?

Well, we have some really exciting new, new product, projects, or pro- yeah,

product systems coming to the market, uh, the last quarter of this year.

Yeah.

Really exciting.

Can you, can you tell us what they are?

No,

I can't.

Oh.

Are they

window-related?

You can tell us off, tell us- Absolutely.

You can tell us offline.

Are they, are they window-related?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Oh.

Really exciting.

Can we guess?

Yes, you can.

Oh, I don't know for what I'd guess.

Skylights?

Oh, no, we do skylights already.

Yeah.

Actually, you, you… Well, in your, in your, um, form, you talk

about a big skylight that you-

Yeah, so we, so we don't… If, like, clients wants just a standard skylight,

I said, "If it's Fakro or Velux does- Yeah … please get it off the shelf.

It's much better." But for example, right now we're designing, uh, we work on a

skylight where it is five by five- Big

in the middle of a house, it's part of the roof structure,

openable parts, all triple glazed.

It's a-

Five by five, so it must be on, on ang- like on an angle.

On an ang- one, one is one foot is on angle and two foots… But

yeah, it's on an angle like that.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

Wild.

It's, it's, it's a big, it's all triple glazed, heavy sensors, automatic openings.

Yeah.

That's cool.

So yeah, so basically EcoSky is like, we are more engineered based manufacturer.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Awesome.

Um, Mindful Moment, Matt?

Yes.

We have a segment at the end of every podcast.

It's the Mindful Moment sponsored by MEGT, Australia's

leading apprenticeship experts.

Um, my advice this week, Haym.

Yep.

Uh, apprenticeships, they're a license to learn.

Yep.

And I think that sometimes as an apprentice, you come in ex- you think

you need to know everything, even when you're a qualified carpenter,

actually with, if you're a year out or even 15 years experience, you

should still have a license to learn.

But I just wanna hammer home that idea of an apprentice that you,

you're there to learn, um, and show initiative, um, be proactive.

Don't wait for someone to tell you to, to, to learn.

I think it's a really important thing that we just need to understand that, um, that

we all started somewhere and we got to where we are by spending that extra time

and extra effort to understand what we do, um, and learn that little bit more.

And I'll just say, add, just add to that, as business owners, even though you and

I, Matt, might not be on site all the time, we definitely see the people who

are engaging a lot more in their- Yeah

extracurricular learning

Very clear.

And, and we potentially favour those people and invest a little bit

more time in them if we're actually seeing that they're hungry for it.

Mm.

Um, Monika, if someone wants some really cool windows, how would they get onto you?

Just give me a call.

I'm kidding.

No.

All right.

And we'll put, we'll put, we'll put your phone number- We'll put your mobile

number in the show notes … in the

show notes.

No.

But, no, just you, you… we actually, just ecosky.com.au.

Yeah.

Very simple.

Or on Instagram, ecosky_windows.

Ecosky.

Awesome.

And they're a proven product, so you're not doing this for the first time.

So if you're scared of doing this sort of, I don't know, using an imported

window or working with an imported window, like, the evidence is there on,

on magnitude, and plenty of builders across Australia have worked with you

guys that will be able to, um, provide some extremely positive feedback.

But even again, reach out to them if you're not sure how to install them.

And- Don't be afraid to, to ask around and ask for some help

… and I reckon if you're an architect out there, I think there, there,

there's a really huge opportunity for you to get into architects'

ears, 'cause they love using big, tall glazing units with aluminum.

They're still gonna continue to use them, so they may as well use your

certified Passive House windows.

So if you're an architect, I would, I'd strongly encourage you

to reach out to Monika and check out their, uh, aluminum range too.

Um-

Thank you

… thanks for coming on.

Thanks for coming on, Monika.

Cheers.